The Emeka Okafor Amnesty Thread

[ziggy]

This thread is for those who bashed Emeka. those who took his double figure scoring, double figure rebounding for granted. Those who were pissed at his unwillingness to dunk the ball, upset by his lack of "fire"... and for those who underestimated his talent for MAINTAINING A HEALTHY TOE :rolleyes: unlike another center that shall remain nameless.

For those of you that fit into this category, and would take back Emeka as your starting center in a heartbeat, this is your chance to admit that you were wrong and to ask the basketball gods for forgiveness.

[Marvel]

I was not one of "them" but i know a lot of people here that appreciated Okafor's double double averages i think the "others' wanted a pipe dream and had too high expectations from EO50 like 20-10 or something.That and his salary,which i don't get because unless TC takes his player option next season we have another year of patheticness from TC.
We would no doubt be among the 5th-6th seed teams right now had we kept Okafor.

[hbk999]

This thread is for those who bashed Emeka. those who took his double figure scoring, double figure rebounding for granted. Those who were pissed at his unwillingness to dunk the ball, upset by his lack of "fire"... and for those who underestimated his talent for MAINTAINING A HEALTHY TOE :rolleyes: unlike another center that shall remain nameless.

For those of you that fit into this category, and would take back Emeka as your starting center in a heartbeat, this is your chance to admit that you were wrong and to ask the basketball gods for forgiveness.
It is only December,lets give Chandler more time. If you want to start a thread about missing people, how about starting with Juwan Howard: a veteran leader who logged 37 minutes and 12 rebs the other night for the Blazers. Nazr and Chandler are doing fine (TC could be much better), but Howard could have been the backup PF we need....

[Ghost Kat]

I was one of those people that assumed Tyson was going to help. I knew the trade was a trade for contracts not talent, But wasn't really sad to see Okafor go. I was so wrong, I would welcome back Okafor with open arms and lips ready to kiss ass :kiss0:

[teej]

I think eveyrone, Larry Brown included, knows Mek is a better basketball player. But in 3 years, I'm going to be very happy we did this. And think of it this way: With TC hurt, Nazzy plays, and he's better than Mek AND TC.

So hell no, I don't regreat it. And it's not like Mek is tearing up the world in NoLA either.

[Walt Cronkite]

......wow.

[KT#20]

Always said it was a terrible trade. Having our 14/11/2 guy back in the middle would be awfully nice.

[teej]

......wow.

towards...?

[Walt Cronkite]

towards...?
Your entire post. If Mek is by far the better basketball player (as this thread suggests), then there was no reason to trade him for Chandler this season, since Chandler's contract is more expensive. Your "think of it this way: With TC hurt, Nazzy plays, and he's better than Mek AND TC" logic is flawed, since Naz was already working on his fitness and game before the Mek trade, so there's no reason to think that he would've been useless with Okafor around. If anything, it further exacerbates the point that it was stupid to trade Mek since we would've had an efficient starting center AND Naz coming off of the bench providing his play. To really, really drive home the point, it's pretty obvious that Mohammed has his minutes limited because he has fatigue issues, so someone is going to have to play minutes when he's tired... much better to have Okafor than Chandler fill that gap.

[Chef]

i would gladly trade the 5th or 6th seed with no hope of being in the ECF let alone a championship over the salary cap hell mek will brink in years 3-5 of his contract.

[Walt Cronkite]

Serious? A team desperate for the playoffs and you'd GLADLY give that up because of what Okafor's contract will be in 3 seasons (when it's finally as much as Chandler is making currently). The contract will be unjustified 4 or 5 years from now, but that is a looooong time from now.

[TheBeagle]

yeah, i assumed Chandler was competent at the least and would be motivated....obviously he's neither. definately would take Mek back at this point. my lingering hope is the money saved in a couple years by doing the trade will give us a solid run at Chris when he becomes a FA.....pipe dream that it likely is.

[dnbman]

Hindsight.... 20/20 and what have you.

I based all my analysis of Chandler on his last couple of seasons in Chicago as well as his time NO. In about the same amount of minutes his final season in Chicago, Chandler shot 56% from the field and got 9 rebounds. There was a couple of seasons where he had 9 points a game. His time got boosted in NO by 7-8 minutes, which meant more rebounds and points.

Assuming he was going be healthy, 10 and 10 wasn't a bold prediction.

To me, we traded one guy who didn't seem to have the fire in the hopes the other guy would. It was a gamble and has not paid off of late. However, Okafor, playing next to the magic man, is having one of his worst seasons as a pro. So, imagine what he would be doing on a team that doesn't have a future HOF er supposedly making him that much better.

[spectre]

Ironic that this thread came about right after Okafor posts a 0 for 5, 50% from the FT...4 of 8...and 2 TOs in 20 minutes night. Of course he did get 9 boards and that's stellar...but would Crash be at the top of the league in boards if Okafor was still here?

As QCH notes, there are only so many rebounds to get:


Final thing I want to touch on: Boris Diaw's rebounding. Boris is rebounding atrociously, but that is in part because Gerald has done it so well. For the season, the Bobcats are 4th in the NBA in defensive rebound rate at 75.9. When Boris is on the court, the Bobcats pull in 75.8% of available defensive rebounds - when he is off, that number barely moves, inching up to 76.0. That number from when Boris is on the court would still be good enough for the 4th best number in the league - so, the real issue is position perception. Boris is a 4, so he is supposed to rebound more than Gerald who is the 3 - but despite that, the Bobcats have done very well in that area, with little room to improve (at some point, there are not any more rebounds for your teammates to grab).

So we're obviously not missing him for the boards.

I do find it amazing that Okafor's numbers haven't gotten better playing with Chris Paul. Guess it wasn't our PG's fault after all?

[Ghost Kat]

As QCH notes, there are only so many rebounds to get

So we're obviously not missing him for the boards.



If you look at Diaw's career stats, He's never been a big rebounder or pts scorer. In my mind that shows a lack of effort his whole career. He could get more rebounds, But he doesn't try. Thats why Wallace has to bang with PF's & C's that are taller and out weigh him. Diaw has a good skill set, but only produces 10 or 25 good games a season. He's lazy, Just like Lexy. Sorry French Fans

Boris needs to go!!

[dvdbumpus]

So here's a few stats comparing 08-09 season to 09-10 season for us and for the Hornets:

09-10 Hornets: allowing opposing teams 4 more boards a game, 7 more points a game. Hornets field goal % is also down 1.3%. Also you can consider than opposing teams are shooting 2% higher than last year. On top of that, consider their records: 08-09 +16 on wins, 09-10 -2 on wins so far.


09-10 Bobcats (keep in mind Diaw has regressed and Chandler hasn't done anything): Allowing opposing teams only .8 more rebounds a game, 2.6 less points a game. The Bobcats Field goal % is down 1.7 % (near same as the Hornets), with opposing teams shooting .9% worse than last year (Victory for us against the hornets +2% from last year). Lastly, we're -6 on wins this year, last year we're -12.

All of this considering we don't have a PF or a C that are doing anything and we're still doing near same or better stats wise.....so is Okafor a loss? Not really, especially if Diaw would play like he did last year. Just my 2 cents. We lost some individual stats but team stats and wins are what matters and there's not really any regression, but improvement in some key categories.

P.S. - Our rebounding is up 1.4/game while New Orleans is up 1.6/game.....not much difference, especially considering the opposing stats from above. Okafor was my 2nd favorite player behind Crash and I loved the pick or Okafor because I was a Uconn fan, but while some things with our bigs frustrate me, not much is noticed in terms of his impact on the team's offense/defense.

[teej]

Walt, this team, as constructed, is still able to make the playoffs. With Mek, we'd still lose in the first round. Makes no difference now. But in 3 years? Oh yes...

And uh, Walt: This is the No Benjamin's Association now. Money > talent.

[KT#20]

Ironic that this thread came about right after Okafor posts a 0 for 5, 50% from the FT...4 of 8...and 2 TOs in 20 minutes night.

And yet, Emeka still has a higher FG% than Tyson and doesn't turn it over nearly as much.


but would Crash be at the top of the league in boards if Okafor was still here?

Clearly this is more important than winning...

[teej]

Clearly this is more important than winning...

I think it's already been pointed out that we're in the playoffs ATM, and Mek isn't helping NoLa any.

And think of it this way. If we have Mek, there's no way Bob J lets us get Jack. So would you rather have Jack and TC or Raja and Mek?

[KT#20]

I think it's already been pointed out that we're in the playoffs ATM, and Mek isn't helping NoLa any.

We're not in the playoffs ATM, and what Mek does in NOLA is irrelevant; however, "isn't helping" is demonstrably false. NOLA would be a lock for the playoffs in the East, while we would be a rich man's New Jersey Nets in the West.

What we should be looking at is what Okafor did for us and what Chandler's done for us. Okafor was much better. Not debateable.


And think of it this way. If we have Mek, there's no way Bob J lets us get Jack. So would you rather have Jack and TC or Raja and Mek?

Honestly, I would take the latter. I like Jackson, but that guy is becoming a black hole (if he isn't one already). It is shocking to me that he hasn't gotten more shit for his chucking. So many people had a problem with Raymond taking 12-13 shots because he wasn't efficient enough; however, Jackson is hitting at under 39 percent but is still taking nearly 18 shots a game. Not only that but that latter duo is cheaper. And then there's Diaw... his game took a major downturn once Jackson arrived. If Okafor and Bell are still here, we're probably seeing the Boris Diaw of last year. And then there's Chandler, who sucks so much. The sum of all of that would make me want Bell and Okafor. Of course, this is all under the presumption that Bob Johnson wouldn't let us have Jackson, which has no real basis.

[Demon DeaCat]

I was against the trade at the time. I understood the cap implications, but from a basketball standpoint, it was terrible, one of the worst in franchise history. I will say, however, that Nazzy's play has caused me to feel ok about it now. When given the minutes, Nazzy is just as effective on the offensive end as Mek, if not more, for half the price. As someone already said, Gerald has made up for the rebounding we lost with Mek, and Chandler is a better back up C than Diop. Factor in the cap relief that's on the way and it's actually turned out to be a pretty good deal. Of course, it's not as good as it could be because LB is still under-utilizing Nazzy and playing TC too much. So while it was a dumb trade at the time, I think it's ended up working out ok for us (as long as Nazzy remains the starter once TC comes back).

[teej]

Nazzy is just as effective on the offensive end as Mek, if not more,

More. At least according to John Hollinger's holy ass PER. Or the Per36 numbers.

I was trying to get him to start when LB came...Maybe I should say start Chandler now?

[Walt Cronkite]

Hindsight.... 20/20 and what have you.

I based all my analysis of Chandler on his last couple of seasons in Chicago as well as his time NO. In about the same amount of minutes his final season in Chicago, Chandler shot 56% from the field and got 9 rebounds. There was a couple of seasons where he had 9 points a game. His time got boosted in NO by 7-8 minutes, which meant more rebounds and points.

Assuming he was going be healthy, 10 and 10 wasn't a bold prediction.

To me, we traded one guy who didn't seem to have the fire in the hopes the other guy would. It was a gamble and has not paid off of late. However, Okafor, playing next to the magic man, is having one of his worst seasons as a pro. So, imagine what he would be doing on a team that doesn't have a future HOF er supposedly making him that much better.

???Per 36 he's still making +50% of his shots. He's rebounding more than he ever has and has the second most blocks of his career. He also isn't a turnover and foul machine. Chandler leads the entire league in turnover rate.


I do find it amazing that Okafor's numbers haven't gotten better playing with Chris Paul. Guess it wasn't our PG's fault after all?

Err...it's also true that he hasn't really gotten worse playing next to Paul... and it's not exactly like our pgs have made chandler into some type of world-beater...



All of this considering we don't have a PF or a C that are doing anything and we're still doing near same or better stats wise.....so is Okafor a loss? Not really, especially if Diaw would play like he did last year. Just my 2 cents. We lost some individual stats but team stats and wins are what matters and there's not really any regression, but improvement in some key categories.

So your eyes are telling you that there isn't much of a difference between Okafor and Chandler? Okafor is an elite rebounder, a better rim protector and at least an equal defender to Chandler... I don't think there is enough evidence to link the causation of our stable or improved team marks to the swap from Chandler to Okafor...


Walt, this team, as constructed, is still able to make the playoffs. With Mek, we'd still lose in the first round. Makes no difference now. But in 3 years? Oh yes...

And uh, Walt: This is the No Benjamin's Association now. Money > talent. [/teej]

When you are desperate for the playoffs and willing to take on additional salary (see: Chandler, Tyson and Jackson, Stephen) you don't downgrade at a position of need because of 3 years from now. You see how things go with the better player and if playoffs still aren't achieved, THEN you trade Okafor, who wouldn't be any less valuable just because his contract increased 1m. Again... we just traded for Chandler who is being paid as much right now as Okafor will be paid two years from now and Okafor is obviously the better player.

Admitting that you're a Simmons reader only lessens the validity of your opinion. That guy jumped the shark a looooong time ago and couldn't be more out of touch. He's a shell of his former self.

[quote="teej"]I think it's already been pointed out that we're in the playoffs ATM, and Mek isn't helping NoLa any.

And think of it this way. If we have Mek, there's no way Bob J lets us get Jack. So would you rather have Jack and TC or Raja and Mek?

Ummm... NO has a much harder strength of schedule (#5...we're 22nd) and the Hornets have more wins with identical games played. They managed to accomplish this without their best player for 8 of their matches. Mek certainly isn't hurting NoLa, can the same be said of Tyson?

Your second sentence is silly, since we traded for Jack even though Chandler costs more than Okafor. I'm sure your rebuttal will mention something about how Mek will be an expense once Chandler is off of the books, so I'll go ahead and counter that Johnson is currently paying more for less. Would a better team not lead to more fans purchasing tickets and loot, leading to additional revenue streams that offset this difference in the future? What if the Chandler trade gets us into the playoffs, but as an 8 seed instead of a 5 seed? What if it gets us in the playoffs this season but not next and never making the playoffs ensues back to back playoff runs?


More. At least according to John Hollinger's holy ass PER. Or the Per36 numbers.

I was trying to get him to start when LB came...Maybe I should say start Chandler now?
Uhh.. and look at where Chandler is compared to Okafor. Naz's success this season was not contingent on Okafor being out of the picture. We would've had two competent, healthy centers instead of one. That has to make us a better team.

[Icky Thump]

I wasn't thrilled with what we got for Emeka at all. I definitely was underwhelmed by his performance while he was here though. I think he was going through the motions and never performed up to par when we needed him which in turn made it tough to get anything for him. Yeah he got his numbers but it was always in games that did nothing for us. I'm really pissed that we didn't get something worth a shit for him though.

[spectre]

And yet, Emeka still has a higher FG% than Tyson and doesn't turn it over nearly as much.

There's no doubt TC is a downgrade from Okafor from a talent perspective. I didn't say the opposite anywhere. Point is Okafor isn't the huge difference maker, at least nowhere near what an awake Boris (or another legit PF) would be.


Clearly this is more important than winning...

Heh...now did I say that? We're getting the same amount of boards (slightly more actually) without Okafor as with him.


Err...it's also true that he hasn't really gotten worse playing next to Paul... and it's not exactly like our pgs have made chandler into some type of world-beater...

Er...do you think our PGs (meaning Failton) and Chris Paul are comparable? Were you not around during the 3 years prior where EVERYONE said it was our PGs' (meaning Failton's) fault that Okafor wasn't being "all he could be"?

Didn't Paul make TC better?

[dnbman]

???Per 36 he's still making +50% of his shots. He's rebounding more than he ever has and has the second most blocks of his career. He also isn't a turnover and foul machine. Chandler leads the entire league in turnover rate.

Chandler has unquestionably under performed. No question. He's been especially bad at turn overs. My point was that 10-10 from Chandler was a reasonable expectation given that he returned healthy. That's basically what Okafor is giving NO right now.

As far as making 50% of his shots, so is Chandler. Okafor's rate might be up a negligible amount, but he's playing a couple of less minutes, so his rebounding per game is down.

I'm just not so impressed with Okafor that I wish we had him back. Everybody on the net said that Okafor was going to be an all-star playing next to Paul and he's not. My point is that we rolled the diced trying to find a comparable player that would play with more fire. So far, we have a guy making bone headed decisions who says he's hurt. I don't know. But I know that Chandler doesn't have to do a whole lot to start giving us what Okafor is giving NO.

To go back to the original question, Okafor would help us more this season than Chandler, at least based on what we've seen so far. Is that production worth the extra years on his contract? I don't know. Is OKafor's difference in production enough to put us in the playoffs? Would Okafor be as good here as he is playing next to Paul?

I just think the case for wanting Okafor back is being overstated. Chandler is doing some frustrating things, but so did Okafor last year and I'm sure we'd be seeing more of his mistakes this year if he were a Bobcat.

[Walt Cronkite]

Er...do you think our PGs (meaning Failton) and Chris Paul are comparable? Were you not around during the 3 years prior where EVERYONE said it was our PGs' (meaning Failton's) fault that Okafor wasn't being "all he could be"?

Didn't Paul make TC better?

Oh good, an opportunity to talk about Felton vs Paul. No, Chris Paul and Raymond Felton are not at all comparable. Paul did make TC better. Turns out, NOT just anyone can throw the ball at the rim and make Chandler a productive player.

[spectre]

Who said that they could? Just because an all star can make Chandler look good doesn't mean that a PG who ISN'T an all star will.

So maybe we shouldn't be expecting it nor criticizing when it doesn't happen?

Thing is it seems even an all star can't accomplish that with Okafor.

[Chef]

Serious? A team desperate for the playoffs and you'd GLADLY give that up because of what Okafor's contract will be in 3 seasons (when it's finally as much as Chandler is making currently). The contract will be unjustified 4 or 5 years from now, but that is a looooong time from now.

yes, i would. i think we are going to make the playoffs anyway.

[spectre]

I agree if Boris would ever pull his head out of his ass.

If Boris would give us just 80% of what he did last year this wouldn't even be a conversation. Boris is the problem...not Chandler.

[Walt Cronkite]

I just think the case for wanting Okafor back is being overstated. Chandler is doing some frustrating things, but so did Okafor last year and I'm sure we'd be seeing more of his mistakes this year if he were a Bobcat.

Ok. Okafor isn't being asked to provide the same thing in New Orleans that he was asked to provide in Charlotte. Tyson Chandler is. Mek is doing what he always has, proving double doubles in 30mp. Chandler is having the worst rebounding year of his career and he's turning over the ball more than any other player in the league.

Okafor was attacked mercilessly as a player without passion. He had hands of stone. He couldn't score the basketball and wouldn't just dunk the damn ball! It turns out, as his few proponents pointed out, that he actually wasn't so bad at catching the ball... he was about average. He had the capability of getting the ball into the basket without only being able to dunk. His passionless play kept him on the floor and out of the crosshairs of his teammates.

What's the Gerald Wallace quote? "You look between our 4-man and our 5-man, we got eight rebounds," Wallace said. "I don't think we're taking pride in our defensive assignments, personally. We're not coming out and taking pride in helping our teammates." He never said stuff like that when Okafor was in town. Also, just the nature of him suggesting that those two aren't prideful about their defensive performance and helping their teammates implies that someone else was.



To go back to the original question, Okafor would help us more this season than Chandler, at least based on what we've seen so far. Is that production worth the extra years on his contract? I don't know. Is OKafor's difference in production enough to put us in the playoffs? Would Okafor be as good here as he is playing next to Paul?

Big guys get paid in this league. They are the most limited resource. Chandler is obviously not worth what he is being paid and Okafor doesn't make that much for another 2 seasons. In seasons 3 and 4, Okafor will be overpaid if he's just providing solid defense and a double double, but only be a negligible amount. Also, if he continues to stay injury free, that isn't really a ridiculous bonus... he is just getting paid for the consistency at that point.

I definitely think Okafor's difference in production is enough to secure the playoffs. We would be an elite rebounding team that is even better on defense. He wouldn't be much of a difference maker on offense, but he would be a slight improvement. He would be under appreciated and the scapegoat for many things, but he would provide a beneficial presence to the court, especially since he would be able to stay on it, which keeps a worse player off or from having to play out of position.

Would Okafor be as good here as he is with Paul? Is that serious? We have 5 years of data to demonstrate what Okafor is capable of doing without Chris Paul and you mention that Okafor has been a disappointment compared to previous year's play... so yea, I think it's safe to assume Okafor would be as good here (more likely, better!) than he is with Paul.

[Fred Williamson]

Our front office screwed it. It was clear that the Mek/Chandler trade was a financial move to shed salary and to have some cap space 2011. Even LB said it wasn't about the players.

But then, why the hell did we get Jax and his 4-year contract? I thought we were looking forward to save some money.

[Walt Cronkite]

Who said that they could? Just because an all star can make Chandler look good doesn't mean that a PG who ISN'T an all star will.

So maybe we shouldn't be expecting it nor criticizing when it doesn't happen?

Thing is it seems even an all star can't accomplish that with Okafor.

Ampsportsduo and teej in the Hollinger attack thread both argued that anyone can make a player like Chandler look as good as Paul made him. Ampsportsduo literally wrote something like "anyone can throw lobs".

WTF about Felton have I criticized ITT or otherwise. I keep any Felton disappointment thoughts off of this forum ENTIRELY and typically keep them in my head even on Realgm because I know you'll see them and blow something reactionary that I wrote out of proportion. You have actually praised me for being fair with Felton and seriously, I don't think I mentioned the Anointed One's name in my posts of this thread until after you did.

What is Paul not accomplishing with Okafor? Again, Okafor isn't really worse in NO, he's just different. He's rebounding at the top level, he's blocking shots well... he's not being asked to score and he isn't. He's a productive player on the defensive end and a garbage man on offense. He doesn't foul or turn the ball over at an inordinate rate, so he doesn't hurt his team by allowing the opposition additional possessions. Also consider that Okafor didn't play in training camp or the preseason or whatever it was because he wanted to make sure he was 100% and contrast that with Chandler's comments, where his ankle or foot felt great, yet he's missed games and used it as an excuse. Chemistry between a pg and c take time, especially when that pg has missed ~30% gp in the current season. I don't think any players on the Hornets made headlines saying their starting 5 wasn't rebounding, taking pride in defensive matchups or helping their teammates.

[Walt Cronkite]

Our front office screwed it. It was clear that the Mek/Chandler trade was a financial move to shed salary and to have some cap space 2011. Even LB said it wasn't about the players.

But then, why the hell did we get Jax and his 4-year contract? I thought we were looking forward to save some money.

Because nothing we do ever makes any sense. We are a desperate franchise.

[Walt Cronkite]

yes, i would. i think we are going to make the playoffs anyway.

Okafor is a better player than Chandler. T or F?

[Walt Cronkite]

I agree if Boris would ever pull his head out of his ass.

If Boris would give us just 80% of what he did last year this wouldn't even be a conversation. Boris is the problem...not Chandler.

Boris isn't the problem. Boris and Chandler are the problem. If Boris was playing well, then Chandler would be the problem. I know the Gerald Wallace calls out Chandler and Diaw thread became a shit on Diaw thread, but our fearless leader called out both of them, to the point that Chandler was affronted by it.

[Chef]

Okafor is a better player than Chandler. T or F?

true, would never argue otherwise. but, neither is worth the money they are being paid. stats are irrelevant, mek can not guard other centers, isn't fast enough to hang with the best power forwards and is being paid as a franchise player. i would rather not have him. what should have happened is, we should have traded him last year or the year before and gotten good return, instead of someone else's washed up garbage.

[Walt Cronkite]

true, would never argue otherwise. but, neither is worth the money they are being paid. stats are irrelevant, mek can not guard other centers, isn't fast enough to hang with the best power forwards and is being paid as a franchise player. i would rather not have him. what should have happened is, we should have traded him last year or the year before and gotten good return, instead of someone else's washed up garbage.

Okafor is not being paid as a franchise player, he's paid as a starting big... 2 seasons from now. "stats are irrelevant, mek can not guard other centers, isn't fast enough to hang with the best power forwards and is being paid as a franchise player." I don't want to argue this, it's gospel to a lot, just like Mek having hands of stone and not dunking enough. Instead, I'll just hope that you acknowledge that Chandler is as incapable or worse at all of those things, so if you think we're going to make the playoffs anyway, we'd be a lock with Okafor instead of Tyson. The problem with the transaction you propose is that there aren't that many big men better than Okafor and the ones that are are unavailable, so we'd have never gotten good return. We could've dumped him for picks I guess, but at the time (and still) that was unthinkable to many, especially the fo, because we were (and are) so close to the playoffs.

[Chef]

Okafor is not being paid as a franchise player, he's paid as a starting big... 2 seasons from now. "stats are irrelevant, mek can not guard other centers, isn't fast enough to hang with the best power forwards and is being paid as a franchise player." I don't want to argue this, it's gospel to a lot, just like Mek having hands of stone and not dunking enough. Instead, I'll just hope that you acknowledge that Chandler is as incapable or worse at all of those things, so if you think we're going to make the playoffs anyway, we'd be a lock with Okafor instead of Tyson. The problem with the transaction you propose is that there aren't that many big men better than Okafor and the ones that are are unavailable, so we'd have never gotten good return. We could've dumped him for picks I guess, but at the time (and still) that was unthinkable to many, especially the fo, because we were (and are) so close to the playoffs.

in years 3-6 he will be paid 12.5, 13.5, 14.5 (coupled with a declining cap) will make him a franchise level pay check. he would have been impossible to deal until the last year of his deal. at the time of the trade, i was not thinking tyson is better, but that i was glad we got mek off the books. i thought tyson would be serviceable not a complete waste. again, i would still do this trade again. we should have gotten draft picks too.

[GoBobs]

The problem I have with the trade is we should have been able to get more for Mek. If we wanted to dump salary why not just trade him to the Thunder, which would allow us to pursue a free agent this summer instead of next. There had to be a few teams who thought Mek was a good value for the money. He is not going to be the star of your team but he is still the best backup center in the league. To me the deal says our gm is not that good.

[spectre]

Ampsportsduo and teej in the Hollinger attack thread both argued that anyone can make a player like Chandler look as good as Paul made him. Ampsportsduo literally wrote something like "anyone can throw lobs".

WTF about Felton have I criticized ITT or otherwise. I keep any Felton disappointment thoughts off of this forum ENTIRELY and typically keep them in my head even on Realgm because I know you'll see them and blow something reactionary that I wrote out of proportion. You have actually praised me for being fair with Felton and seriously, I don't think I mentioned the Anointed One's name in my posts of this thread until after you did.

LMAO at the "annointed one"! Felton certainly isn't the guy who has that title! Who was "the future" again?

Maybe if all players are congratulated/criticized evenly this wouldn't be a problem with you having to keep things in your head? Just a thought.

We're talking about criticisms from last season and before in regards to Felton hindering Okafor's production...remember Okafor was traded this past summer. How many discussions were there about Okafor's "touches"? Just like you with Amp & Teej's prior posts I'm not regulated to just this thread (or this forum for that matter).

Oh, and "fair" is a relative term.

Crash didn't call out Okafor, but he did say that he saw no difference really between him and Chandler. From the "tone" it sure looked like Crash wasn't too upset to see him go. Indeed, he seemed much more upset about Raja being traded.

Crash & Okafor played what...5 years together? You'd think he'd have been just a little upset.


Boris isn't the problem. Boris and Chandler are the problem.

Boris is absolutely the problem. Nazr is giving enough production this year to where we don't need Emeka's 12 ppg and Crash is boarding enough to where we don't need his 10 boards a game.

I know you predicted doom and gloom ever since that trade went down so you seem invested in the idea that it's all TC's fault, but you're wrong. With Boris from last year Jake Voskuhl could start at C for us and we'd easily make the playoffs.

[spectre]

The problem I have with the trade is we should have been able to get more for Mek. If we wanted to dump salary why not just trade him to the Thunder, which would allow us to pursue a free agent this summer instead of next. There had to be a few teams who thought Mek was a good value for the money. He is not going to be the star of your team but he is still the best backup center in the league. To me the deal says our gm is not that good.

What GoBobs said. There had to have been better packages out there than what we received. All I can figure is that the FO had to work some sort of compromise with LB to where he could get someone servicable back. Whether TC ultimately will still remains to be seen.

[KT#20]

Boris is absolutely the problem. Nazr is giving enough production this year to where we don't need Emeka's 12 ppg and Crash is boarding enough to where we don't need his 10 boards a game.

Both are producing equally badly, so both should be held accountable. I could just as easily say, "Nazr is making up for Boris' lack of scoring, and Crash is making up for Boris' lack of rebounding, so he's not the problem."


With Boris from last year Jake Voskuhl could start at C for us and we'd easily make the playoffs.

Up until the Jackson trade, Boris was nearly the EXACT same player that he was last season. He wasn't passing as much, but he cut his turnovers. What was our record? 3-6. He was a good player, but come on, the guy was still far, far from being Bosh, Garnett, etc.

ETA: Actually, even four games after the Jackson trade Diaw was still the 08-09 version of Diaw. Not that it helped our winning much... we went 1-3.

[KT#20]

Re: PER


Year Wallace Okafor
04-05 14.12 16.39
05-06 21.32 14.94
06-07 19.83 20.15
07-08 17.66 17.46
08-09 18.64 18.01
09-10 18.13 17.20


The biggest gap (05-06) is the season Okafor only played 26 games. Wallace only played 55 games that season also. From 06-09, the two have been very close. Even this season (09-10), look at how close the two are. Okafor produces; he just doesn't get the credit, for whatever reason.

[teej]

When you are desperate for the playoffs and willing to take on additional salary (see: Chandler, Tyson and Jackson, Stephen) you don't downgrade at a position of need because of 3 years from now. You see how things go with the better player and if playoffs still aren't achieved, THEN you trade Okafor, who wouldn't be any less valuable just because his contract increased 1m. Again... we just traded for Chandler who is being paid as much right now as Okafor will be paid two years from now and Okafor is obviously the better player.

Admitting that you're a Simmons reader only lessens the validity of your opinion. That guy jumped the shark a looooong time ago and couldn't be more out of touch. He's a shell of his former self.

Walt, I know you will never be swayed from your opinions, but Mek is not the type of player who could be traded down the road. I was honestly surprised we we able to trade him now. And attacking my mental acuity for reading Simmons only lessens the validity of your opinion, sir, as you have never met me and have no clue of my other activities.


Your second sentence is silly, since we traded for Jack even though Chandler costs more than Okafor. I'm sure your rebuttal will mention something about how Mek will be an expense once Chandler is off of the books, so I'll go ahead and counter that Johnson is currently paying more for less. Would a better team not lead to more fans purchasing tickets and loot, leading to additional revenue streams that offset this difference in the future? What if the Chandler trade gets us into the playoffs, but as an 8 seed instead of a 5 seed? What if it gets us in the playoffs this season but not next and never making the playoffs ensues back to back playoff runs?


Uhh.. and look at where Chandler is compared to Okafor. Naz's success this season was not contingent on Okafor being out of the picture. We would've had two competent, healthy centers instead of one. That has to make us a better team.

The non-signing of Allen Iverson shows that Bob doesn't care about what gets fans in the stands from on-the-court performance. But Jack costs less this year than Raja and Vladi, and less in the future than Mek (and is a better player, for now). And whether we are an 8 seed or a 5 seed, I don't think having Mek vs. Tyson changes the outcome of that series.

As for Nazzy, yes it does. Mek averaged 8 more minutes per game than Tyson, and Gana got a few less minutes last year than Nazzy is getting this year. So I'd say it does.

And Walt. On Chris Paul, since you're bringing up what Amp and I said (which, if you watched the first few games, Ray had thrown decent lobs), weren't you one of the ones saying CP3 would make Mek into an AllStar? Oops.

[spectre]

Both are producing equally badly, so both should be held accountable. I could just as easily say, "Nazr is making up for Boris' lack of scoring, and Crash is making up for Boris' lack of rebounding, so he's not the problem."

Actually Crash IS making up for Boris' lack of rebounding (remember...only so many rebounds to get?), but he's given us more than boards or scoring...he makes plays and easier baskets.


Up until the Jackson trade, Boris was nearly the EXACT same player that he was last season. He wasn't passing as much, but he cut his turnovers. What was our record? 3-6. He was a good player, but come on, the guy was still far, far from being Bosh, Garnett, etc.

ETA: Actually, even four games after the Jackson trade Diaw was still the 08-09 version of Diaw. Not that it helped our winning much... we went 1-3.

Those first four games:

vs. Orlando he had a stellar game...but it was Jax's first and he shot 4 of 14. A shitty TC & not much from Nazr = 3 v 5. Easy loss.

vs. Philly Boris went 3 of 7 for 8 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists in 39 minutes. Loss.

vs. Milwaukee Boris went 5 of 10 for 11 points, 5 boards, 3 assists in 45 minutes. Loss.

Now look at the win...vs. Indiana:

http://www.nba.com/games/20091122/INDCHA/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

Boris had a great game, Jax went 5 of 13 and Nazr went 8 of 10 for 18 points. We win.

This year compared to last season with us Boris is about 5 points less per game, 1.5 less boards and 1.6 less assists. He's also not a threat in the paint like he was last season. He's also no longer a threat beyond the arc...last year's % with us was 42...now it sits at 30.2.

[teej]

KT#20, I think what Spectre was trying to say is that with Jack and a normal Boris, we don't need a great center. But with Raja, we would. So Boris needs to step up now.

[KT#20]

Now look at the win...vs. Indiana:

http://www.nba.com/games/20091122/IN...#nbaGIboxscore (http://www.nba.com/games/20091122/INDCHA/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore)

Boris had a great game, Jax went 5 of 13 and Nazr went 8 of 10 for 18 points. We win.

So then our center's performance does matter, right? Nazr had an awesome game, and that was just as important in us winning that game as Diaw's performace was.

I'm not disputing that Diaw's overall game has went down, just that at one point (through the first 13 games, I would say) he was nearly the exact same player he was last season, but we were still losing.

Through those first 13 games, he was averaging:

13 PPG

5.5 RPG

4.2 APG

2.1 TO

I think if we had Okafor instead of Chandler we would have easily won more games through those first 13, Diaw's performance since then wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue, and we would easily be a playoff team.

[KT#20]

KT#20, I think what Spectre was trying to say is that with Jack and a normal Boris, we don't need a great center. But with Raja, we would. So Boris needs to step up now.

Okay, that makes much more sense.

ETA: Of course, then the question becomes would that be enough to actually win a series in the playoffs.

[spectre]

Of course the C matters. I thought I said before that because of how Nazr has stepped up this season offensively and how Crash has been raking in the boards the old Boris means much more than having Okafor would.

Sorry KT, didn't put it so well I guess. Thanks Teej.

If I remember right we were getting our asses kicked on a consistent basis before we swapped out Richardson for Boris/Raja weren't we? Boris is the reason we almost got into the playoffs (Raja helped too...not saying he didn't). He added a dimension to our team that we've never had before. IMO we're missing it sorely now. Jax can't make it up...as we've all seen he has a lot of holes in his game. On his worse nights we can't make it up with just 2 other guys.

[Chef]

this is a great thread. good discussion and debate.

[Walt Cronkite]

LMAO at the "annointed one"! Felton certainly isn't the guy who has that title! Who was "the future" again?

Maybe if all players are congratulated/criticized evenly this wouldn't be a problem with you having to keep things in your head? Just a thought.

We're talking about criticisms from last season and before in regards to Felton hindering Okafor's production...remember Okafor was traded this past summer. How many discussions were there about Okafor's "touches"? Just like you with Amp & Teej's prior posts I'm not regulated to just this thread (or this forum for that matter).

Oh, and "fair" is a relative term.

Crash didn't call out Okafor, but he did say that he saw no difference really between him and Chandler. From the "tone" it sure looked like Crash wasn't too upset to see him go. Indeed, he seemed much more upset about Raja being traded.

Crash & Okafor played what...5 years together? You'd think he'd have been just a little upset.



Boris is absolutely the problem. Nazr is giving enough production this year to where we don't need Emeka's 12 ppg and Crash is boarding enough to where we don't need his 10 boards a game.

I know you predicted doom and gloom ever since that trade went down so you seem invested in the idea that it's all TC's fault, but you're wrong. With Boris from last year Jake Voskuhl could start at C for us and we'd easily make the playoffs.

You're a bigger ass over here than realgm. Who do I over congratulate and criticize? I think Chandler is awful, but he gets props for an amazing dunk or good defense, it's just more rare than when I smh at his general uselessness. I guess I want Diaw, Wallace and Augustin to do well because I like the way they play, but... whatever.

Re: Okafor's touches--I do think we had a tendency to ignore Okafor when he was on and I think the Felton-Okafor P&R was one of the most successful offensive options we had at one point. I think Larry Brown saying that we don't give the ball to our bigs enough added some fuel to the fire, but we've danced this dance enough.

How did I predict doom and gloom? I said Chandler was worse than Okafor and didn't think we were a lock for the playoffs as constructed. I also took exception to Hollinger's rater having us winning only 29 games, but I thought the ceiling was at 40 and didn't understand how a lot of posters here saw that as the basement.

[Walt Cronkite]

What GoBobs said. There had to have been better packages out there than what we received. All I can figure is that the FO had to work some sort of compromise with LB to where he could get someone servicable back. Whether TC ultimately will still remains to be seen.

I think Johnson started to panic with the lack of interest in the team. I wish he would've been able to chill until he got rejuvenated or whatever the report was before the season began and we'd have made the Jax move, but he didn't, so it's whatever. Anyway, I'm really surprised that there are so many people that would still make the Okafor/Chandler trade, but I guess Mek made a lot of enemies.

[teej]

No need to namecall, Walt.

[Walt Cronkite]

Walt, I know you will never be swayed from your opinions, but Mek is not the type of player who could be traded down the road. I was honestly surprised we we able to trade him now. And attacking my mental acuity for reading Simmons only lessens the validity of your opinion, sir, as you have never met me and have no clue of my other activities.


"Mek is not the type of player who could be traded down the road." You need some actual elaboration here, this is an empty opinion. I know you will never be swayed from your opinions though. :rolleyes: Bill Simmons used to be worth reading, but I think you're a Red Sox fan, so I guess you're able to stomach what he produces. I can't any more, but was a loyal reader when I was in HS.


The non-signing of Allen Iverson shows that Bob doesn't care about what gets fans in the stands from on-the-court performance. But Jack costs less this year than Raja and Vladi, and less in the future than Mek (and is a better player, for now). And whether we are an 8 seed or a 5 seed, I don't think having Mek vs. Tyson changes the outcome of that series.

Don't understand your first sentence at all. Jack costs less, but Chandler costs more, so it's a push. You made a point that if we didn't trade for Chandler we never would have made the trade for Jackson and I don't think that's a very logical assumption. I think it's much more reasonable to believe Bob Johnson doesn't know what he wants, so we keep making these conflicting moves. He gets in a panic about not having interested buyers, so we need to cut long term salary. He becomes reenergized about the team, let's make that move to get us to the playoffs. Neither of them make a difference in a 1 vs 8 seed, but 4 vs 5 would be a very winnable series for our team and I think it would be worth having the more talented player that is capable of staying on the court.



As for Nazzy, yes it does. Mek averaged 8 more minutes per game than Tyson, and Gana got a few less minutes last year than Nazzy is getting this year. So I'd say it does.

Tyson averages less minutes because he can't stay on the court. Mohammed would just play all of the available backup minutes, 18-25 pg depending on foul trouble or matchups. Again, I really do not think you can say Mohammed's effectiveness this season is contingent on Okafor being out of town. Naz is doing his thing on an average of 14mpg this season... Mek is a career 33mpger, meaning there is even one spare minute to go per 48 at the 5... how is it that this wouldn't work again?


And Walt. On Chris Paul, since you're bringing up what Amp and I said (which, if you watched the first few games, Ray had thrown decent lobs), weren't you one of the ones saying CP3 would make Mek into an AllStar? Oops.

Did I say he'd make him into an all-star? That was pretty foolish. Remember when you and sweed wrote that Chandler would easily average 14ppg once LB taught him how to play the right way? That was hilarious! You joker, you.

[Walt Cronkite]

No need to namecall, Walt.

Wow, add something productive. I don't have any issues with Spectre, I'm just commenting that I think his post style is different here than Realgm (in an unnecessarily aggressive/argumentative way).

Spectre makes some empty comment about how if I didn't go around over congratulating or criticizing certain players then maybe I wouldn't have to keep things to myself... for what? I guess this came from over congratulating Okafor??

Then he makes a one liner about how fair is a relative term after I mention that he had recently given me props for being fair with Felton's performance this year. How is that not an ass thing to write? Again... this is a thread for posters to repent from their Okafor bashing sins and denounce the false promise bringer... not to talk about CP3 or Felton. I have written about Felton enough... it is a tired subject.

[Walt Cronkite]

Of course the C matters. I thought I said before that because of how Nazr has stepped up this season offensively and how Crash has been raking in the boards the old Boris means much more than having Okafor would.

Sorry KT, didn't put it so well I guess. Thanks Teej.

If I remember right we were getting our asses kicked on a consistent basis before we swapped out Richardson for Boris/Raja weren't we? Boris is the reason we almost got into the playoffs (Raja helped too...not saying he didn't). He added a dimension to our team that we've never had before. IMO we're missing it sorely now. Jax can't make it up...as we've all seen he has a lot of holes in his game. On his worse nights we can't make it up with just 2 other guys.

Power Forwards, they call em! :D

Poster note: Really not trying to get into a flame war with you. Just pointing out that we had never had a starter quality PF before we added Boris, so since we don't have a backup PF and Boris is playing like crap, yea... we're really missing that production from one of the 5 traditional basketball positions.

[teej]

Wow, add something productive.

As a mod, it's my job to keep things somewhat civilized, and you going out of your way to call one of the most tenured and highly esteemed members an ass isn't going unnoticed. Sorry for offending you. Not every post has to be two paragraphs long.

[Walt Cronkite]

I thought he was being a jerk unnecessarily... would that have been more acceptable, your Modship? In Raleigh, these terms are interchangeable and not really worth taking exception over during discussions amongst grown men, but I recognize that linguistics vary by region.

[teej]

I don't see a reason to call him either one.

And calling me "your modship" is also "unnecessary"

[Walt Cronkite]

Wanna reply to one of my Okafor posts ITT and maybe discuss this with me over PM instead?

[spectre]

You're a bigger ass over here than realgm.

I find you to be about as big an ass over there as over here. :biggrin:

But about me; I don't think I'm any different wherever I am...maybe you're just thinking that because I post over here so much more. If you really think so however y'all just keep tossing out the bait...I can be an equal ass just like you. :cool:


Power Forwards, they call em! :D

Poster note: Really not trying to get into a flame war with you. Just pointing out that we had never had a starter quality PF before we added Boris, so since we don't have a backup PF and Boris is playing like crap, yea... we're really missing that production from one of the 5 traditional basketball positions.

It wasn't just because Boris is a PF, but because he's an UNtraditional PF who can/could pass like a PG and shoot the 3 ball.

Y'know...you say you want to avoid any PG discussion with me but in this very thread you responded to a post of mine that wasn't even directed at you, was about PGs and you started it with that "er...".

Yet I'm the ass? :rolleyes:

[SWedd523]

I don't remember ever saying he would average 14 a game. I do remember saying he could average a double double assuming he got a similar offensive workload as Mek (has traditionally taken many less shots per game), ass.









Ass ass ass ass ass ass ass :p

[Walt Cronkite]

Y'know...you say you want to avoid any PG discussion with me but in this very thread you responded to a post of mine that wasn't even directed at you, was about PGs and you started it with that "er...".

Yet I'm the ass? :rolleyes:

Your post wasn't even directed at anyone. I guess the OP, but you didn't quote anyone and started it by mentioning that it's funny that this thread comes after Okafor did something disappointing. I didn't realize I was only supposed to comment on the things you write when you are directing them to me personally, but it should make you easy to ignore going forward.

[teej]

Enough. This USED to be about basketball.

Locked.