Stephen Jackson: Top 5 SG? [Archive]

jdsingar

02-26-2010, 01:57 PM

Rick Bonnell posted an article on Stephen Jackson and his slight All-Star snub. I definitely think Jax deserved some consideration. But he made this seemingly headscratching comment:

If you look at the 2-guards in the league,'' Jackson concludes, "you can't tell me I'm not in the top five.''

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/02/26/1273516/jackson-pines-for-an-all-star.html

Does anyone really believe that? If you look at ESPN's player ratings for SG, you see right off the bat that there are 5 guys (Wade, Bryant, Roy, Ginobili, Johnson) that are ahead of him without much consideration in my mind. There's a slew of guys ahead of him in PER as well. You could also take into account Lebron, Carmelo, and Durant who have similar size and capabilities, but techinically play SF.

Is he justified in this thinking?

BRNC

02-26-2010, 02:01 PM

I really like Jax and was all for him coming here...like his all-around game....read this article a bit ago...still scratching my head from the comment also...I like the fact he has confidence...but I found it a "stretch"...

SWedd523

02-26-2010, 02:16 PM

I hate ranking guys linearly because I'd much rather group them.

For example:

Group 1 consists of Wade, Bryant, Roy, and Johnson
Group 2 consists of Ellis (if you call him a SG), Jack, and KMart
Group 3 consists of Mayo, Eric Gordon, Rip, and Jamal Crawford

He might be top 5, but he's fringe. And he's also in group 2, so the gap between the top 4 and him is large enough to merit him being pushed down

ammofan

02-26-2010, 02:44 PM

Ok I like Jack but come on man......the day after Wallace says in the paper that it was "Team This Team That" when they were winning and now it "I this I that", Jack come out with a "I this" article in the paper. He needs to keep his yap shut because right now the way he and the rest of the team is playing, he isnt even in the top 10 sg's!

ajbry

02-26-2010, 02:47 PM

Fred Williamson

02-26-2010, 02:57 PM

This is one of the reasons why I don't want him here for the remaining 4 years of his contract.

This guy is still a headcase and it's only a matter of time before he starts the same drama here, he left behind in Golden State. He needs to STFU and let his game speak. Team first, individual awards second.

BETCATS

02-26-2010, 03:11 PM

This is Jackson's swagger speaking. He needs to think he is the best so he can play like he is the best. Honestly, Top 5 is all a matter of perspective, everyone can produce a different list and use facts to back their views up. I personally consider Jack top 15 not top 5. But that is just me.

And i love him for it too.

jdsingar

02-26-2010, 03:16 PM

Let's not go by ESPN player rankings and PER, please.

I like what LB said in the article and something I've aligned myself with: coaches know. Coaches - current, former, opposing - say overwhelmingly positive things regarding Jack and I'll take their input over us fans or know-it-all metrics any day.

I probably wouldn't have bothered responding but whenever I see PER reference it infuriates me, lol. It's for nerds who don't actually watch games. And it doesn't even account for literally one-half of basketball, which penalizes good defenders like Jack.

I agree on the point concerning defense. PER doesn't measure defense well and it doesn't take into account leadership ability. What it does tell me about Jack, though, is what we already know: He's an inefficient offensive player and relies on volume.

He is a good defender, but not a superior athlete or a shut down type player. I like what he has done for us on the defensive end, and it is worth noting.

I used the ESPN ratings more as a way for me to take a look at the field of players at SG. I'd say that Top 5 is pretty good, and I would definitely take any of them over Jack.

spectre

02-26-2010, 03:16 PM

Let's not go by ESPN player rankings and PER, please.

~snip~

I probably wouldn't have bothered responding but whenever I see PER reference it infuriates me, lol. It's for nerds who don't actually watch games. And it doesn't even account for literally one-half of basketball, which penalizes good defenders like Jack.

Boy do I have a thread for you!

Hollinger Preview (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9677)

:biggrin:

teej

02-26-2010, 03:31 PM

Boy do I have a thread for you!

Hollinger Preview (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9677)

:biggrin:

:biggrin:

If only "nerds who don't watch the games" would admit PER isn't the best stat known to man.

Jeez-usss.

Walt Cronkite

02-26-2010, 03:39 PM

:rolleyes:

I don't think we have a true shooting guard on the roster... we have two small forwards that compliment each other well. Semantics, I know. Pretty disappointing to read that Jackson cares about this type of stuff though. Oh well. Maybe Jackson will start playing like a top 5 SG now and we'll go on a run now that Chandler has been exiled again.

Walt Cronkite

02-26-2010, 03:44 PM

:biggrin:

If only "nerds who don't watch the games" would admit PER isn't the best stat known to man.

Jeez-usss.

Per isn't a stat. It's a metric formulated from stats.

Jeez-usss

SWedd523

02-26-2010, 03:47 PM

This is AMERICA. We don't use no stankin' metric system!

Jeez-usss

Walt Cronkite

02-26-2010, 03:49 PM

That was at least funny and not infantile.

ajbry

02-26-2010, 04:07 PM

You guys sure are cranky after a few losses in February, lol.

teej

02-26-2010, 04:09 PM

Pretty disappointing to read that Jackson cares about this type of stuff though.

You'd rather him not have any personal goals? Prior to the all-star game, Gerald said he'd be disappointed if he got snubbed, and while I can't remember you praising him for that, there was certainly no vocal criticism. This is more Bonnell taking Jack's frustrations over the last few games, what is likely a passing quote, and a deadline with nothing better to write about and making a big deal out of it.

This would be like Will Smith saying he gets "really depressed" when he thinks about not being able to win an Oscar, even though he's worthy. It's not a big deal, Bonnell just wants it to be.

Also, PER rates every players statistical performance. If you want to get technical on the definition, fine. It doesn't matter, because no one uses it that matters.

BRNC

02-26-2010, 04:17 PM

You guys sure are cranky after a few losses in February, lol.

cranky...ROFLMAO...more like testosterone-PMS while waiting to find out who owns the team..........:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

ajbry

02-26-2010, 04:27 PM

You'd rather him not have any personal goals? Prior to the all-star game, Gerald said he'd be disappointed if he got snubbed, and while I can't remember you praising him for that, there was certainly no vocal criticism. This is more Bonnell taking Jack's frustrations over the last few games, what is likely a passing quote, and a deadline with nothing better to write about and making a big deal out of it.

This would be like Will Smith saying he gets "really depressed" when he thinks about not being able to win an Oscar, even though he's worthy. It's not a big deal, Bonnell just wants it to be.

Also, PER rates every players statistical performance. If you want to get technical on the definition, fine. It doesn't matter, because no one uses it that matters.

Basically.

It's not exactly breaking news that Stephen Jackson is always willing to keep it 100 (and thus, speaking his mind).

Walt Cronkite

02-26-2010, 04:54 PM

You'd rather him not have any personal goals?

Not if it affects his team play.

Also, PER rates every players statistical performance. If you want to get technical on the definition, fine. It doesn't matter, because no one uses it that matters.Raw statistics are formulated into a player efficiency rater. It's not really about technicalities, it's about using terms correctly. Don't you want to be a reporter or something? Don't you already consider yourself a journalist?

teej

02-26-2010, 05:00 PM

Not if it affects his team play.

He looked great in the Milwaukee game, was horrid in the LAC game, and played decently in the Utah game. I don't think he's affected team play with his personal goals. If anything, it's helped.

Raw statistics are formulated into a player efficiency rater. It's not really about technicalities, it's about using terms correctly. Don't you want to be a reporter or something? Don't you already consider yourself a journalist?

No, I don't consider myself a journalist, I consider myself a student. However, when I'm writing for school or BCP or whomever, I do research. When I'm posting on a fan forum, I don't spend an infinite amount of time to determine between "rater" and "stat" when 99.9% of people will understand what I'm saying and not bitch about it.

Demon DeaCat

02-26-2010, 05:06 PM

I don't think it's much of a reach at all to say that Jack is a top 5 SG. He'd be at the lower end of that group, but I think he's there. He's played at an incredibly high level for long stretches this season. I'm not bothered that he thinks he was snubbed. He might have been. The only time he's been selfish all year, IMO, was in the LAC game where he couldn't accept that he was having an off night and kept forcing bad shots trying to get his groove back. He hurt the team that night, but other than that, he's been a great team guy. I want him to think he's the best player on the court and worthy of all-star recognition. Much of the time, he's been just that.

King Taharqa

02-26-2010, 05:08 PM

IMO Jax is in that 2nd tier group of SG's in the league and I love the swagger and confidence he brings to our team. Like the poster above me stated, his only real BAD game was against the Clips, but outside of that he's been a big reason why we're in the playoff hunt.

kickazzz2000

02-26-2010, 05:19 PM

Top 5 SG dont go 1 for 16...ever.

sorry

ajbry

02-26-2010, 05:22 PM

Top 5 SG dont go 1 for 16...ever.

sorry

Notable players who have been 1-of-16 or worse: Clyde Drexler, Ben Gordon, Tim Hardaway, Jason Kidd, Karl Malone.

This topic would probably differ in tone a bit if his last 2 games weren't so awful, so let's hope he gets his shit together for Memphis.

spectre

02-26-2010, 05:31 PM

Swagger. We need it and he's got it.

He basically turned our season around. He had one really bad game, but the rest after the break mimic his whole season: a few stellar games mixed with solid and a few stinkers. That's just Jax.

For all I care he can (and probably does) think he's the best player in the game.

BTW...I'm kind of shocked this came as a surprise. Check out my sig. Jax has been a one man sig fiend since he got here.

WarioVsMooChicken

02-26-2010, 06:04 PM

Didn't Jax once say he was on kobe's level?

spectre

02-26-2010, 09:22 PM

"I'm not going to bow down," Jackson said. "I'm not a fan of Kobe. I'm not somebody who looks up to him. I'm a grown man myself. So when I go out there and play the game, I play the game. I feel like I'm just as good as him. I might not get the publicity or notoriety he gets, but I feel like I can play with anybody in the NBA (http://nba.fanhouse.com/) any given night."

:biggrin:

Seriously...I love that about him!

In Jax's defense supposedly Kobe called him "young fella" in the game prior to the one for which he got suspended. I'm sure that pissed him off to no end.

Marvel

02-26-2010, 09:23 PM

Didn't Jax once say he was on kobe's level?

I remember Iggy saying the same thing...i was like LOOOOOOOOL

Toocool

02-26-2010, 10:10 PM

I'm not too sure about Jax being a top 5 SG, probably top 10. However, we all know what he does bring to this team and what he can do. It's all the things off the court he brings also (swagger, confidence, chemistry)

Slam

02-26-2010, 10:46 PM

Top 5 SG dont go 1 for 16...ever.

sorry
Kobe went 2-12 against us at the start of the month.

kickazzz2000

02-26-2010, 11:02 PM

kobe went 2-12 against us at the start of the month.

2/12 > 1/16

CarolinaBlue704

02-27-2010, 01:17 AM

2/12 > 1/16

Jax often gets labeled as a chucker/volume shooter,but Kobe has done his far share of chucking over the years.The following being the worst.

Lakers @ Boston 11/7/02

Kobe Bryant:41pts[17-47]:o

This was and still is the most shot attempts in an NBA game without scoring at least 50pts.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200211070BOS.html

Also,how about a bad shooting night for LeBron James?And this was a playoff game.

Cavs @ Boston 5/6/08

LeBron James:12pts[2-18]

The King played like a peasant that night.:biggrin:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805060BOS.html

Point is,everyone has bad shooting nights.As for the tread topic,I love Jax's confidence.Lacking confidence is what keeps so many players from reaching their potential.Jax doesn't have that problem.And I believe he has played like a top 8 SG since coming over in the trade.

TheBeagle

02-27-2010, 05:21 AM

BRNC

02-27-2010, 11:22 AM

I'm not sure it is possible to have a guy that is "perceived" to be a game changer/go to type guy that does not have swagger...they do not (MJ, Kobe, DWade...anyone else you want to put here) always succeed...the thing is they're not afraid to take the heat when they don't succeed...too many players wilt when you need them...the "swagger" guys step up and take it (good or bad)...when we did not everyone (fans) wanted it...we got it with Jax and Flip...and were (IMO) a better team for it...

Volume "shooters" are always going to be just that....Jax has a career (.419), Joe Johnson (.444), Kobe (.455), DWade (.481), Flip (.415) FG%....

There are obvious "breaks" that separate the better "volume" type shooters...Jax and Flip are not horrible...but their are certainly better...

Those are career FG%...thought I should add that...

PouncingBobcat

02-27-2010, 01:22 PM

Moving over from the Western Conference plus his reputation with the Pacers and Warriors added up to his snub. Next year he'll be on the team without question.

Shrimpy_Jackson

02-27-2010, 07:04 PM

Capt Jack's a bad motherfucker! I'm glad he's cocky! Spectre said it best and Beagle endorsed it so that's pretty much the end of story.

KT#20

02-28-2010, 12:11 AM

I'll take Wade, Bryant, Roy, Ginobili, Iguodala, Carter, and Johnson over Jackson. Carter's having a career worst season, which is why Jackson is having a slightly better season than him, but Carter's easily been the better player over the years. With that said, Jackson is still eighth, which isn't bad at all.

SWedd523

02-28-2010, 12:51 AM

Iggy's a SF.... and Ginobili and Carter both before Jack? Why does it matter what they HAVE done? Jack is RIGHT NOW better than both by a wide margin

WarioVsMooChicken

02-28-2010, 04:26 AM

I suddenly miss Matt Carrol

And I have no reason to

Fred Williamson

02-28-2010, 04:58 AM

Iggy's a SF.... and Ginobili and Carter both before Jack? Why does it matter what they HAVE done? Jack is RIGHT NOW better than both by a wide margin

Uhm, no. Not sure about Carter but Ginobili is the superior better player. One of the most underrated players ever.

Toocool

02-28-2010, 09:28 AM

Ginobili is also one of the worst floppers in the league. Oh, should we mention he has paper thin ankles? Every turn looks like his ankle will snap.

SWedd523

02-28-2010, 11:44 AM

Manu hasn't been better than Jack for at least 2 years. He had a great couple of years and has been in steady decline since. Jack is clearly the superior, better player right now (and last year)

Fred Williamson

02-28-2010, 12:54 PM

Ginobili is also one of the worst floppers in the league. Oh, should we mention he has paper thin ankles? Every turn looks like his ankle will snap.

You can hate his flopping all you want but it doesn't change the fact that it's effective and he knows how to use it. Ginobili knows how to take charges and is overall a great defender and definitely better than Jax. He's also the more versatile and better scorer (better TS% than Jax) and the better playmaker.

And yeah, he's injury prone because of his Crash-like playing style.

SWedd523

02-28-2010, 01:30 PM

You can hate his flopping all you want but it doesn't change the fact that it's effective and he knows how to use it. Ginobili knows how to take charges and is overall a great defender and definitely better than Jax. He's also the more versatile and better scorer (better TS% than Jax) and the better playmaker.

And yeah, he's injury prone because of his Crash-like playing style.

Again, that may have been the case a few years ago. Now? not so much

EvetsMorrison15

02-28-2010, 02:18 PM

Does anyone else think that the first 10 minutes of Transformers 2 is a cheap marketing scam to display the top 5 songs on iTunes?

spectre

02-28-2010, 02:51 PM

Does anyone else think that the first 10 minutes of Transformers 2 is a cheap marketing scam to display the top 5 songs on iTunes?

Was that the part where Megan Fox was straddling the motorcycle with those denim shorts on?

It could be....but all I remember are those shorts.

WarioVsMooChicken

03-01-2010, 03:32 AM

Jax can play all 5 positions. How is Manu more versitile than that?

Muttley

03-01-2010, 09:19 AM

Jax can play all 5 positions.

So can Megan Fox.

BRNC

03-01-2010, 02:01 PM

So can Megan Fox.

ROFLMAO...+1 muttley...:biggrin::D:biggrin::D:biggrin::D:biggri n::D...I'm beginning to hate the "spread it around"...geez...

spectre

03-01-2010, 02:26 PM

http://www.thetransformers.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/article-0-04c44713000005dc-822_306x349.jpg

Uh....yeah.

teej

03-01-2010, 03:54 PM

http://www.thetransformers.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/article-0-04c44713000005dc-822_306x349.jpg

Uh....yeah.

:wow1:

Dat assssss

SWedd523

03-01-2010, 05:01 PM

:wow1:

Dat assssss

http://yeeeah.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/megan_fox_freakish_thumbs_10.jpg

Dat TOE THUMBBBBB

TheBeagle

03-02-2010, 02:19 AM

http://yeeeah.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/megan_fox_freakish_thumbs_10.jpg

Dat TOE THUMBBBBB LOL! You beat me to it! However, in the interest of my libido, ASS> Clubbed Thumb. Holy mackereal she has some figure to go with that thumb!!!

EvetsMorrison15

03-02-2010, 02:57 AM

Toe thumb or not, I can transform to the Love Machine if we play the game of Bed Sex.

SWedd523

03-02-2010, 11:39 AM

Walt Cronkite

03-02-2010, 01:04 PM

TheBeagle

03-02-2010, 02:12 PM

http://api.ning.com/files/o-zKmogQlLZxHfWLE1FTdPfmLhZKzdfjsOcSLb6EVPbnfA2LzxDx Y0-2bwNUUm4lG*2K-iiFAnAK2mtVeTSdtRBTptmg1A5H/EvaMendes_9.jpg

Eva Mendes is personally my cup of tea. Megan Fox can take her toe thumbs somewhere else :) Eh. It's not racism (at least not conscious....I am from Davidson County after all) but Latinos and Hispanics rarely rarely do anything for me....Between these two, I'll stick with ol' clubbed thumb.

To take this even farther off topic, I challenge my brethren to find a Latina that would make me hot and bothered. Post 'em and the first person that finds one that er.....stirs my loins? gets some much valued rep points.

EvetsMorrison15

03-02-2010, 02:36 PM

Eh.
To take this even farther off topic, I challenge my brethren to find a Latina that would make me hot and bothered. Post 'em and the first person that finds one that er.....stirs my loins? gets some much valued rep points.

Paula Graces. I like her a lot.

http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn461/SteveMorrison15/paula2.jpg

http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn461/SteveMorrison15/paula.jpg

Vida Guerra. Most notorious ASS in L.A.

http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn461/SteveMorrison15/vida.jpg

http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn461/SteveMorrison15/vida2.jpg

spectre

03-02-2010, 02:43 PM

teej

03-02-2010, 05:57 PM

Spectre, I have no doubt Captain Jack would approve :biggrin:

If we're going into hot chicks, what about Charlotte's own Brooklyn Decker?

http://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/08_brooklyn-decker_13.jpg
http://www.caughtandtold.com/upload_images/Caricrature_img134.jpg

TheBeagle

03-03-2010, 04:17 PM

Man, if we're going to go off topic in a thread this is the way to go!!!!

Toe finger? Ever see "Shallow Hal"? Wasn't that the movie where his friend had all these hot women wanting to date him but there was always some little thing that he'd use as an excuse not to?

Yeah...that ain't me AT ALL.

Beagle...if that last pic of Steve's doesn't stir the loins there's something seriously wrong!
That last picture is indeed.....something. If it was anybody but Steve, I'd give the rep, but I know how he abhors them, so I'm still in search (and no, posting that same pic by someone else won't count).

On another note, thanks for those pics, teej! She is indeed......something. And how about that OBGYN pose in the first pic...HOLY COW :o

KT#20

03-03-2010, 11:28 PM

Uhm, no. Not sure about Carter but Ginobili is the superior better player. One of the most underrated players ever.

Yeah, I would take Manu and wouldn't think twice. Statistically, he's easily the superior player. He's one of those guys who doesn't get enough credit because of the guys he plays with, and because he comes off the bench and doesn't play heavy minutes. I put Carter over Jackson because I felt there was no reason to put Jackson ahead for having one ever so slightly better season when Carter's had 11 seasons that Jackson can't touch.

Igoudala is listed as a shooting guard, and he definitely has no problem playing it, so I say he counts.

SWedd523

03-04-2010, 12:48 AM

Again. It doesn't matter what they did for the past 11/15/39 seasons. It matters what they're doing now. And right now, neither are better than Jack.

Fred Williamson

03-04-2010, 01:23 AM

oh yes they are , and always have been.

Marvel

03-04-2010, 02:34 AM

Manu is better than S Jax and so is VC, even now

SWedd523

03-04-2010, 02:34 AM

Your logic is infallible. :rolleyes:

Fred Williamson

03-04-2010, 05:35 AM

What else is there to say? Both are more versatile than Jax in almost every aspect, more efficient, better teamplayers, they don't hurt their teams with stupid complaints during the game, and you can count on them during clutch time. Giving the ball to Jax during clutch time is like playing russian roulette.

Toocool

03-04-2010, 06:02 AM

Jax is great. Better than VC? At this current time yes. Ginobilli? Probably no.
Jax isn't efficient and doesn't have the foul drawing ability Ginobilli does.

KT#20

03-04-2010, 10:06 AM

Again. It doesn't matter what they did for the past 11/15/39 seasons. It matters what they're doing now. And right now, neither are better than Jack.

"If you look at the 2-guards in the league,'' Jackson concludes, "you can't tell me I'm not in the top five.''

He's not limiting it to this season, so it doesn't make sense why you are.

But Ginobli, currently, is absolutely better than Jackson. I hope you realize that a player who plays 41 minutes a game will probably have higher per game averages than one who plays 28.

As for Carter, I'm not going to sit here and say, "Jackson is better than Carter because he's been better [by the slimmest of margins] in his 58 games than Carter has been in his 55 games." I'll at least look at last season, in addition to the current one, and in that case Ginobli and Carter are easily superior to Jackson.

What I found most amusing about the article was that Jackson actually believes he's one of the 20 best players in the league. He's definitely not, but you gotta love the swagger. Most of the time, at least.

ajbry

03-04-2010, 10:21 AM

I think you're overvaluing Ginobili at this point in his career (and I'm not trying to take anything away from Manu, who is still a very productive player and clearly a top 10 2-guard).

And if you compare Jack and VC based on the past 2 seasons, I don't see how that puts it in VC's favor.

A lot of reactionary posts lately, which reflects Jack's recent poor stretch. Of course you'll be more apt to knock him down a few pegs when he's playing badly.

Felton for Prez

03-04-2010, 11:36 AM

Based on the play of late, I'd say Nazr is our MVP. Sadly, I'm only half kidding.

Muttley

03-04-2010, 11:45 AM

Based on the play of late, I'd say Nazr is our MVP. Sadly, I'm only half kidding.
Yeah, he or Flip. More likely Nazr, though. Imagine where we'd be if we didn't bring in Theo, though. Well, we'd have lost just as many games but they probably would've been much worse.

Walt Cronkite

03-04-2010, 01:25 PM

Based on the play of late, I'd say Nazr is our MVP. Sadly, I'm only half kidding.

Was thinking this last night, too. Someone has to fill the void at center and Naz has done an excellent job. Definitely am hoping he's starting to get over these back spasms.