View Full Version : If there's one thing that was confirmed in the Miami game....
Brown'sTown
03-09-2010, 09:26 PM
It's that no player in the league gets less respect from the refs than Boris and Raymond. How many fucking horrible calls and no calls can go against those guys? and so late in a close game too. Why do the refs hate them so much?
110oldeast
03-09-2010, 09:57 PM
Agreed. You can pretty much guarantee that the only time Felton is going to get to the line is at the end of the game when teams are trying to put someone on the line. Even the one drive he did have where he got the foul, the baseline ref seemed to not want to blow the whistle and when the guy opposite did, the baseline guy looked like he was gearing up to call a charge. The NBA refs pretty much go into games having in mind "who goes to the line and who doesn't." If you do, then any chance they get to put you on there, they will, even if you are the guy hitting someone. If you don't, then they will either ignore contact against you or call a foul on you.
The guys who tend to get the most respect on our team are in order: 1) Gerald; 2) Jack; and 3) DJ (despite the fact that some folks seem to think he doesn't get enough calls, he gets quite a share when driving). Boris and Raymond for some reason are much further down the list. It's strange to me considering the fact that these 2 tend to play as much by the letter of the law as anyone out there, not doing excessive handchecking, reaching, shoving, or anything. Boris uses the crafty move that everyone is taught to of holding position but not actually pushing, but gets hit more than most guys. When Felton goes to the basket, you pretty much have to hope he is going to make it, b/c he ain't going to the line unlike most other pgs.
That said, I was happy to see both play more aggressively today. When this team is at its best, they are aggressive components of the equation, through shooting, passing, and initating offense for the team. When they stand around passively and watch others isolate, we are a worse team for it.
bozzy
03-09-2010, 10:09 PM
No one was getting calls in the 4th quarter. I thought the Bobcats got away with several fouls on Wade as well. For once, I thought the refs handled a big game the way they should always handle it (by letting the players decide the outcome).
SWedd523
03-09-2010, 10:26 PM
No blood, no foul.
No blood, no foul.
Tell that to the 2006 Mavs :rolleyes:
Refs don't decide games. They never do.
The coaches and the players do.
jiff65
03-09-2010, 10:57 PM
The charging call on Boris, late in the game, after he made the lay-up, really put the refs credibility on the line. It should have been an And-One. That was a game-changing type of call. They show the play on the scoreboard and the defender is plainly up in the air. Complete farce.
Sometimes it seems so blatant that the league wants certain players playing in the playoffs. Tonight's officiating was appalling.
110oldeast
03-09-2010, 10:57 PM
Those cliches fit a one game situation and definitely work when we win the game. My point and the point of the OP was more of a trend throughout than an isolated game.
Those cliches fit a one game situation and definitely work when we win the game. My point and the point of the OP was more of a trend throughout than an isolated game.
It fits win or lose.
Why get hung up on something you have no control over and something that doesn't effect the outcome of the game?
Get annoyed at DJ missing a tech FT or Felts missing 1 of 2 to ice the game or Boris for passing a few times instead of shooting when he is under the rim. Those are the things we can control and directly effect the outcome of a game.
bozzy
03-09-2010, 11:18 PM
The charging call on Boris, late in the game, after he made the lay-up, really put the refs credibility on the line. It should have been an And-One. That was a game-changing type of call. They show the play on the scoreboard and the defender is plainly up in the air. Complete farce.
Sometimes it seems so blatant that the league wants certain players playing in the playoffs. Tonight's officiating was appalling.
How about the charge DJ took in the 4th when he clearly was moving his feet to get in front of the player? That was a game changing call as well. All the calls clearly didn't go against the Bobcats tonight
110oldeast
03-09-2010, 11:32 PM
Again Slam, I'm not even that hung up on the officiating in this particular game by any means. I am speaking again more to a long-term trend. It really makes zero since how often Felton goes to the hole with contact and no call. Further Boris, plays a very old school type of game fundamental game which you would expect to lead him more protection from the refs. That "push off" was a definite turning point that we OVERCAME, but to act as if it's not worth addressing is something I can't agree with. Because you aren't always going to get a chance to overcome calls late in the game. In a final posession situation, if you are fouled, you need to be able to have a foul called. Putting it in the players' hands should still mean putting it in their hands within the rules. Furthermore, if you are going to "let them play" don't call Diaw when he doesn't even extend the way most players do on that drive.
I think that it is something that a coach is supposed to work on and at times pre-emptively. That said, I realize that LB's fine and big slap on the wrist from the NBA FO early on has somewhat neutered him here. I think the Bobcats have actually gotten better in terms of respect as a team. I agree with the OP however, that the 2 players mentioned have not however.
It fits win or lose.Why get hung up on something you have no control over and something that doesn't effect the outcome of the game?Get annoyed at DJ missing a tech FT or Felts missing 1 of 2 to ice the game or Boris for passing a few times instead of shooting when he is under the rim.* Those are the things we can control and directly effect the outcome of a game.
110oldeast
03-09-2010, 11:33 PM
I said on another thread that DJ draws as much respect from the refs as anyone on the team other than Jack and Gerald.
How about the charge DJ took in the 4th when he clearly was moving his feet to get in front of the player? That was a game changing call as well. All the calls clearly didn't go against the Bobcats tonight
bozzy
03-09-2010, 11:42 PM
Further Boris, plays a very old school type of game fundamental game which you would expect to lead him more protection from the refs.
Boris plays so soft that when he doesn't, he is often called out by the refs. In general, the Bobcats get away with a lot of grabbing/holding on defense because they are very aggressive on every play on defense.
Toocool
03-10-2010, 01:04 AM
If there was one thing that was confirmed in the Miami game is that Flash is a crying sook. He complains about not getting calls. Well he needs to grow up, sometimes you don't get calls. I use to love Wade, but his attitude stinks now. His comments about us were complete bull crap too. I got four words for Flash. Suck it up Princess.
On the flip side, problem with Boris is that when he fouls, he barely touches the guy. He needs to grab hold of a limb or something instead of just whacking them and letting them get the 3 point play.
Slam, sometimes the refs can make a team win the game. Look at Lakers vs Kings a few years back in the playoffs. Kings got utterly raped because a tiny tap on a hand lead to a foul on Kobe or something.
Dodgy refereeing has been around for years and will still be around for years. We just have to suck it up and keep playing.
TheBeagle
03-10-2010, 02:44 AM
No one was getting calls in the 4th quarter. I thought the Bobcats got away with several fouls on Wade as well. For once, I thought the refs handled a big game the way they should always handle it (by letting the players decide the outcome). Absolutely agree. This was one of the better called games of the year, considering the atmosphere, what was at stake, this was a virtual playoff game (or at least, the closest the Cats have come to one thus far) and it was fairly called both ways, and you can't ask for more. Sure there were missed calls (the Boris offensive foul was bogus; the no travel call on the play where Wade saved it out of bounds to Richardson (I think) who took 4 steps without dribbling before giving it up to Wade for the layin) but they actually let the Cats play defense on Wade without calling foul after foul after foul which is the usual M.O. from most ref crews.
All in all, a great called game by Crawford and Co.
All in all, a great called game by Crawford and Co.
I have to agree 100%. There were several missed calls during the game but I loved the fact that the refs let them play, especially down the stretch.
Say what you want about the calls, the Bobcats are getting more respect from the refs than they ever have.
Slam, sometimes the refs can make a team win the game.
No, they can't.
Taking good shots, not turning the ball over, hitting FT's, boxing out/rebounding, not committing stupid fouls, playing accountable D - they are the things that make teams win games.
I said on another thread that DJ draws as much respect from the refs as anyone on the team other than Jack and Gerald.
Can't agree with this.
Of course I am a firm believer that when you drive you should ALWAYS look to score rather than look to draw a foul. Sometimes DJ plays for the foul too much. There is no point (unless you get your defender up in the air and you are taking a set J).
Felts used to do it too. I would drive me nuts. He hasn't done it NEARLY as much this season - in fact we hardly see it at all (although it has crept back lately) and look at the results. He's finishing better at the rim than ever before because he's just focused on trying to make the bucket rather than draw the foul.
When he drives like that, with his power, quicks and explosion, he is VERY hard to stop.
DJ can be the same, he just has to learn to use it (like he was last night). With his handles, quickness and creativity he is very hard to stop on the drive.
Don't worry about drawing fouls. Don't worry about what the refs are doing. Just worry about trying to put the ball in the basket.
In saying all that, I dislike Dick Bavetta very much and cringe every time he calls our games - or any game I am watching for that matter!
bozzy
03-10-2010, 11:50 AM
No, they can't.
Taking good shots, not turning the ball over, hitting FT's, boxing out/rebounding, not committing stupid fouls, playing accountable D - they are the things that make teams win games.
Huh? There have been plenty of games where star players are sitting on the bench for obvious bogus calls. Refs can have a huge influence over the outcome of a game. When the Bobcats have refs that don't let them use their aggressiveness on defense, it takes them out of their game.
Speaking a refs, they have more influence over NCAA tournament games than the players. Just watch in the next few weeks as a team's best player gets two quick fouls because the officials are afraid to miss a call.
Doris gets offensive fouls called against him because (replay shows it every time) he "pushes off" with his left arm...every game I watch has questionable calls...and we left too many points by not hitting shots and free-throws...as someone else said "making our shots" makes the refs a moot point and I agree...
Brown'sTown
03-10-2010, 12:28 PM
Slam, the idea that refs can't decide a game is insane. If a slew of bad calls occur that could cause a 10 point swing. If you've got a player who is important sitting on the bench all night because of bad calls it could be worse than that. You can't expect a team to always overcome that handicap, thats like saying "if you don't dominate them then you don't deserve the win". You're delusional if you really think teams don't occasionally outplay their opponents and come away with the L. As for Boris' push off, come on. His arm was hardly extended and O'Neal's momentum was going sideways, crashing his body into him. Calling it offensive was a terrible call. He made the bucket, then the heat hit a shot on the other end, that's a 5 point swing right there very late in the game. Then Boris got an offensive foul called on a play he botched, but I didn't see him do anything. It just looked to me like he pussed out under the basket as usual and pulled the ball out and the ref just punished him for being a puss. The Felton no call was terrible and those happen every single game, but again this time the game was on the line. We were up 2 or tied with less than a minute left and they let O'Neal give him a hard body check and block him on the way down. You can't allow 7 footers to give hard contact to 6 footers on a layup attempts, especially in a potentially game deciding situation. DJ certainly gets more love than Felton. But DJ tries less to finish and does more flailing and falling. Sucks that the league rewards that and Felton has to constantly absorb huge fouls.
We almost doubled (30 vs 16) Miami in free-throw attempts last night...we consistently get to the free-throw line more than opponents...the refs are not costing us games...not hitting shots is costing us games...
Refs can have a huge influence over the outcome of a game. When the Bobcats have refs that don't let them use their aggressiveness on defense, it takes them out of their game.
Or maybe the defense is sloppy, players are forced to cheat, be overly aggressive and take short cuts so they commit fouls?
we left too many points by not hitting shots and free-throws...as someone else said "making our shots" makes the refs a moot point and I agree...
People who disagree should read this over and over and over again until they understand and stop looking for others to blame for losses.
Slam, the idea that refs can't decide a game is insane. If a slew of bad calls occur that could cause a 10 point swing.
Not as much as three consecutive empty possessions due to poor turn overs or shot selections.
If you've got a player who is important sitting on the bench all night because of bad calls it could be worse than that.
Then that shows a lack of depth. It's not like the important player is missing the whole game. Maybe he only plays 25, 27 or 30 mins rather than 35, 27 or 40. He still has an impact and you should build a team to that has depth to cover these times.
You can't expect a team to always overcome that handicap, thats like saying "if you don't dominate them then you don't deserve the win". You're delusional if you really think teams don't occasionally outplay their opponents and come away with the L.
Sure a team can outplay an opponent for a game, but maybe they turned the ball over more, maybe they missed FT's. Their general play might have been better, but their mistakes greater.
As for Boris' push off, come on. His arm was hardly extended and O'Neal's momentum was going sideways, crashing his body into him. Calling it offensive was a terrible call.
Totally agree. I thought that was a terrible call.
Of course if Boris had hit some bunny shots and not gone 4-11 or looked to score rather than pass on other posessions or Crash made a layup all game and didn't go 3-11 or we hit more than 73% of our FT's for the game then that call wouldn't have mattered.
It was ONE call Vs a HUNDRED (random number used for effect) of things we did wrong. I'd take that one bad call................so long as we did the hundred things right that we should have done right.
Dcarnys
03-10-2010, 01:27 PM
We almost doubled (30 vs 16) Miami in free-throw attempts last night...we consistently get to the free-throw line more than opponents...the refs are not costing us games...not hitting shots is costing us games...
True that, but you have to admit the refs can have a huge impact on a game.
GoBobs
03-10-2010, 01:39 PM
The offensive foul on Boris was a terrible call.
Toocool
03-10-2010, 01:49 PM
I still disagree with you Slam. I understand where you're coming from, but if you get called a foul on every defensive play, how are you suppose to play defense? Your team might as well foul out (happened before with the GSW).
if you get called a foul on every defensive play, how are you suppose to play defense? Your team might as well foul out (happened before with the GSW).
And if a ref called a foul on every defensive play there would be around 150-200 fouls called in a game.
When was the last time that happened?
The reason that happened with the GSW's is because:
A) They suck on D and commit a lot of bad fouls.
B) They were only playing with 7 guys (maybe 8?) dressed because of injury
You are still glossing over the fact that the way a team plays and the mistakes they make has more of an impact on a game than any ref ever will.
True that, but you have to admit the refs can have a huge impact on a game.
Can they have an impact? Sure. The way they call a game can influence a player and how they play meaning the player has to adjust.
Do they decide the outcome?
Not a hope in hell.
Missed shots, turn overs etc do that.
Take the Clipps game. We lost that game because of Jax and therefore because of LB. Had nothing to do with the refs, no matter how bad the refs might have been.
110oldeast
03-10-2010, 05:57 PM
That sounds good, but that is just not the reality of basketball. Many players go the basket because they want to get to the line and get a rhythm. Coaches in fact will coach you to do this. Part of why LB doesn't like over reliance in jumpshots is about "high percentage" shots, but the other part is the possibility of getting on the line which driving does. Chauncey Billups only tries to score about 1/3 of the time he drives to the basket. The rest of the time, it is initiating contact with someone and counting on a whistle (which he often gets). Many of the pgs with good shooting percentages miss a lot at the basket, but when they do, there is a foul call that keeps it off the books.
I am not saying spend all your time fixated on foul calls, but this idea of not trying to draw fouls goes in direct contradiction with much of basketball coaching. Again, if a player goes to the hole much of the time and never gets to the line despite getting contact while picking up "body" foul calls while defending on the perimeter with minimal handchecking like Felton, it's relevant. The same things happen often when he is hipchecked when going around a pick and the hedge man hip checks him with no call. Again, getting fouls, getting into the bonus and getting points at the line is a significant part of the game.
I am not saying players need to dwell on it. But again, a coach is supposed to bring it to light.
No, they can't.
Of course I am a firm believer that when you drive you should ALWAYS look to score rather than look to draw a foul. Sometimes DJ plays for the foul too much. There is no point (unless you get your defender up in the air and you are taking a set J).
Felts used to do it too. I would drive me nuts. He hasn't done it NEARLY as much this season - in fact we hardly see it at all (although it has crept back lately) and look at the results. He's finishing better at the rim than ever before because he's just focused on trying to make the bucket rather than draw the foul.
When he drives like that, with his power, quicks and explosion, he is VERY hard to stop.
DJ can be the same, he just has to learn to use it (like he was last night). With his handles, quickness and creativity he is very hard to stop on the drive.
Don't worry about drawing fouls. Don't worry about what the refs are doing. Just worry about trying to put the ball in the basket.
110oldeast
03-10-2010, 06:02 PM
Slam,
It's not an either/or scenario. Players AND refs decide games together. Neither happen in a vaccuum. It's not a black or white situation.
The players are accountable for making the appropriate plays. The refs are responsible for making the appropriate calls.
If they were not that significant to games, they wouldn't get graded and assigned to the playoffs based on these ratings.
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