Jackson not young-Star players over 31

[Dexmor]

So how much time to Jackson have left? I would say he could be like a Billups were he has more time then usual for a wing for 2 reasons A.He doesn't jump more then 2 inches anyway and B.He is a 6'8 sg.


So here are some good stars at that age and I hope there are at least 10

Guys who have not feel off or not fell off alot

Kobe
Billups
Jackson
Pierce
Hedo
Carter
Duncan
Hamilton
Jamison
Allen
Kidd
Davis
Manu
DreMiller
Dirk

Now this list seems nice and long thank the lorta but there are plenty of guys that just fall off at that age like KG and Marion.
Am I being a homer to think Jack can be like Billups since he doesn't use any athletism whatsoever and is 3 inches taller then all the other 2's?

[ajbry]

Jack's been an underwhelming NBA athlete for years now. It can be masked if you play him at the 3, but his natural position will always be the 2.

His game has never been predicated on quickness or athletic ability (which is somewhat rare among guards). In that aspect, he'll be well equipped to adjust as he gets older. However, there will be games where his opponent at the 2 is simply quicker and the team defensive concept will need to change in order to deal with that.

And, as we've seen in the past 2 games, you can't play him 40+ minutes every night and expect him to hold up as well as a 26-year old. The guy will be 32 in a couple weeks. Something that does play into longevity-related questions: he's played a relatively small number of games compared to other players his age.


I've got a few qualms with your list, though:

Turkoglu was never good enough to "fall off," and he has fallen off this season. He parlayed a couple decent seasons with Dwight Howard into a ridiculous contract and is clearly overrated. Hamilton isn't quite the same player he was and is ideally suited for a Ray Allen role. Baron Davis has fallen off. Ginobili's battled some injuries as of late (and being an international player, he has a lot of basketball wear and tear).

[Dexmor]

Jack's been an underwhelming NBA athlete for years now. It can be masked if you play him at the 3, but his natural position will always be the 2.

His game has never been predicated on quickness or athletic ability (which is somewhat rare among guards). In that aspect, he'll be well equipped to adjust as he gets older. However, there will be games where his opponent at the 2 is simply quicker and the team defensive concept will need to change in order to deal with that.

And, as we've seen in the past 2 games, you can't play him 40+ minutes every night and expect him to hold up as well as a 26-year old. The guy will be 32 in a couple weeks. Something that does play into longevity-related questions: he's played a relatively small number of games compared to other players his age.


I've got a few qualms with your list, though:

Turkoglu was never good enough to "fall off," and he has fallen off this season. He parlayed a couple decent seasons with Dwight Howard into a ridiculous contract and is clearly overrated. Hamilton isn't quite the same player he was and is ideally suited for a Ray Allen role. Baron Davis has fallen off. Ginobili's battled some injuries as of late (and being an international player, he has a lot of basketball wear and tear).



Hedo is a good player. Maybe he isn't a star but he is very good and hasn't really fallen off so I put him on the list. I don't think he feel off I think it's the change of team. He doesn't take alot of shots at all on the Raptors. He also had 1 great season in a contract year so that could be why he feel off to.

Rip imo has fallen off a little bit but really it's only injury which could be scary because he has been healthy up until now but now that he's healthy he is the same old good rip. 17 points with Ben Gorden on the team sharing his position and not having Billips anymore. Pretty good imo.

Baron Davis has fallen off but it is due to injury (again that is a scary thing to so you have a point) but really the list and I should of made it more clear is list of players who are still stars at that age. Davis is still one of the top pg's in the league at his age.


Jackson is better suited for the 2 but at 6'8 he can completely play sf fulltime if he wanted to. He would just need to board a little more.
He should be able to play at a high level til at least 34 maybe 35 (35 is a little homerish of him?) because unlike Marion he doesn't play off athletism and unlike KG he has very low miles im pretty sure with him only having 10,000 points.
He has been a good defensive player at the 2 being unathletic guarding one of the most athletic positions and fastest. Plus he could always do the whole stand an extra foot back and holding up his arms like what guys like KG and Camby do when they are asked to guard guards.
If he were to play the 3 it wouldn't be for us because I don't think he would take a bench role and we have Gforce.
Im thinking after this year he has 3 good years that are on par with this year.
Michael Jordan is the master of extending his career after his athletism leaves so if Jackson works hard and works out with MJ and lets MJ help him he could perfect the mid range game like Jordan did he could extend his career and at 6'8 he won't need the turnaround to be able to get it off anytime.

[Toocool]

For males, you peak at about 25. After you have peaked at 25, you start deteriorating. Some deteriorate faster than others. It's simply how your body feels, how much wear and tear you have from playing bball. Crash will probably start slumping in a few years given the amount of punishment he endures (and the lack of fouls).

For Jackson, probably about 2 years before he starts dropping off.

[Dexmor]

You peak at 25 physcially but not basketball wise. Basketball prime is 28-32.

[mj4life]

since jax doesn't depend on athletic ability and has a pretty high basketball iq he could play at a high level up to possibly 36 to 38 depends on injury and how many minutes he plays. not comparing but jordan averaged 20 per game when he was almost 40 and reggie miller was still productive in his late 30's

[SWedd523]

I predict Jack has one more good/great year ahead of him. After next year, we'll see a decline in his defensive abilities, and a steady decline in his offensive prowess as he won't be able to handle the minutes (assuming he stays around 40).


I still say we should look to trade him to a team looking for a veteran leader now that he's shown that he can be mature has hopefully quashed what the doubters have to say because his value will only decline due to his contract.

Young, emerging talents like Eric Gordon or OJ should be targets. Look to package Jack with an expiring (we'll have a plethora of them next offseason) for one of those youngsters.

[Marvel]

I predict Jack has one more good/great year ahead of him. After next year, we'll see a decline in his defensive abilities, and a steady decline in his offensive prowess as he won't be able to handle the minutes (assuming he stays around 40).


I still say we should look to trade him to a team looking for a veteran leader now that he's shown that he can be mature has hopefully quashed what the doubters have to say because his value will only decline due to his contract.

Young, emerging talents like Eric Gordon or OJ should be targets. Look to package Jack with an expiring (we'll have a plethora of them next offseason) for one of those youngsters.


Would love to trade Jax in the off season with TCs expiring for a young sg stud.

[mj4life]

what's all this trade jack he's almost over the hill talk. this is basketball not football where players that stay in shape and avoid serious injury have productive and long careers. I mean why don't the lakers trade kobe since he turns 32 this year and has a lot more mileage on his legs than jack. some youngers players like mayo and gordon don't even make us a playoff contender in my mind. if you objectively look at it their only 4 shooting guards you would take over jack period(kobe,d-wade,brandon roy,joe johnson) the rest in league(oj mayo,gordon,monte,ray allen, add any other name) are players that most can debate based on age or production during their careers as to which one they would rather have on their team. but how many of them provide the def presence and overall offensive ability that jack does. add in the fact that at 6'8" he is one of the biggest guards in the league. Jack has shown in past that he can d up people like nowitski(he still has nightmares about that series) as jack continues to reley more on his mid range and post up game he is only going to get better with time in my mind

[Dexmor]

1 more year? 38-40 isn't happening, that's a joke but to think he will fall off after this year isn't right either.

[mj4life]

might not but don't think that it can't happen. we can get atleast 3 to 4 years out of him(that doesn't mean he will score 20 a game). by then we can move him to more like a 6th man and maybe by this time hendo or brown might develop into starters or we have found someone through the draft, by trade, or free agency totake his place

[teej]

I think he'll be productive at least to the end of his current contract (2012/13) which happens to be the end of Gerald's deal, Gana's deal, and um, a certain man named Chris Paul's deal ends then too.

Three year deal for Ray? I think so.

[mj4life]

I think he'll be productive at least to the end of his current contract (2012/13) which happens to be the end of Gerald's deal, Gana's deal, and um, a certain man named Chris Paul's deal ends then too.

Three year deal for Ray? I think so.
couldn't agree with you more by then we will have a good idea how far this team can go and if we need to sign a game changer like paul or another free agent

[GoBobs]

Jax has already dropped off from where he was a few years ago as a defender.

If you watch the way Jax plays his game is more one on one then team oriented. He is constantly catching the ball and then giving a pause before he makes a few dribbles and goes into a jumper(remember when Gerald used to do this except he would almost always hold the ball then drive). When this happens the other guys tend to stand around because they know they aren't getting the ball. He is ill equipped to handle the double teams that get thrown at him when he is hot because he isn't a very good passer. The best thing he does is take the ball to the basket where he scores at a very efficient clip. This team needs to dedicate itself to working to get good shots. That means moving the ball from side to side and finding a mismatch or an open shooter.

Rip Hamilton could be a very nice fit here. I would put Rip, Carter, Kevin Martin and Ray Allen all in the group that is better then Jackson.

[ajbry]

Jax has already dropped off from where he was a few years ago as a defender.

Rip Hamilton could be a very nice fit here. I would put Rip, Carter, Kevin Martin and Ray Allen all in the group that is better then Jackson.

Yikes.

I do somewhat agree that Jack can be a 1-on-5 offensive player, but that happens with most of the top scorers in the league. However, ball movement, like you said, is absolutely key to establishing a solid offensive rhythm - but is difficult to achieve when you don't have a lot of proven offensive pieces around you.

Jack is actually a very, very good passer for someone his size - however he is prone to force passes and make poor decisions.

[mj4life]

Jax has already dropped off from where he was a few years ago as a defender.

If you watch the way Jax plays his game is more one on one then team oriented. He is constantly catching the ball and then giving a pause before he makes a few dribbles and goes into a jumper(remember when Gerald used to do this except he would almost always hold the ball then drive). When this happens the other guys tend to stand around because they know they aren't getting the ball. He is ill equipped to handle the double teams that get thrown at him when he is hot because he isn't a very good passer. The best thing he does is take the ball to the basket where he scores at a very efficient clip. This team needs to dedicate itself to working to get good shots. That means moving the ball from side to side and finding a mismatch or an open shooter.

Rip Hamilton could be a very nice fit here. I would put Rip, Carter, Kevin Martin and Ray Allen all in the group that is better then Jackson.
rip(injury issues) carter(spot up 3 point shooter, maybe 5 or 6 years ago)Kevin Martin(great scorer but plays no d)Ray allen( same as carter with injury issues also). not saying they couldn't help our team but today they are not better all around players and with the exception of allen and rip they pretty much shrink when the pressure is on not exactly what you want from someone you want to be your no 1 offensive weapon. again jack has a terrible night against miami and all of a sudden it's let's get rid of jack movement. never mind that he hit a big three to send us into overtime against phoenix as the clock expired(we won). never mind that he shook off a bad first half against okc to help us pull out a win, never mind that he was money against miami and cleveland on the road when we had a hard time winning on the road,let's also forget that he torched houston, san antonio, and phoenix (remember we ran both phoenix and san antonio out of the cable box)

[teej]

Jax has already dropped off from where he was a few years ago as a defender.

If you watch the way Jax plays his game is more one on one then team oriented. He is constantly catching the ball and then giving a pause before he makes a few dribbles and goes into a jumper(remember when Gerald used to do this except he would almost always hold the ball then drive). When this happens the other guys tend to stand around because they know they aren't getting the ball. He is ill equipped to handle the double teams that get thrown at him when he is hot because he isn't a very good passer. The best thing he does is take the ball to the basket where he scores at a very efficient clip. This team needs to dedicate itself to working to get good shots. That means moving the ball from side to side and finding a mismatch or an open shooter.

Rip Hamilton could be a very nice fit here. I would put Rip, Carter, Kevin Martin and Ray Allen all in the group that is better then Jackson.

Wow.

I know you're a hater, but still. I haven't seen enough of Jack in the past to know if he's fallen off, but if he has, then he was a top 5 player in the league before he got here. :rolleyes:

I'm 99.9% sure the reason he goes 1-on-5 is because Larry (and MJ, if you watch) have told him that he's the one who has to take over. If you were watching the OKC game on the Bobcats broadcast, when he had that horrible first half, both Larry and MJ took him aside to talk, and after that he lit it up and I don't think he passed unless he couldn't shoot. He tries to pass too much, then when he turns it over he's just told to shoot. Neither is ideal, but the latter is much better for this team. And while you're correct that he's best driving to the basket, he's actually over 40% shooting (over 50% at the basket) in 7 of the 9 2pt "hotspots" on nba.com, and over 30% from 4/5 3pt "hotspots" so saying he's only efficient at the basket isn't accurate.

And Allen was almost traded as an expiring contract like T-Mac, Vince can barely drive anymore, K-Mart makes Matt Carroll look like Raja Bell on D, and Rip has a massive contract he's nowhere near worth. Jack is well above these guys. :facepalm:

[GoBobs]

I am not saying he hasn't had some good nights, but there are lots of streaky shooters in the league. Raja was the same way to some extent. If he was on we were unbeatable, like in the first Hawks game. When he had a bad night you looked at the box score and said, Damn Raja killed us tonight.

He has one of the lowest FG% of anyone on the team, only beating Theo and Hendo. He averages the highest number of turnovers. His 3pt % is not great for a SG, Wallace, Felton, and DJ are all a lot better 3pt shooters according to the stats. Hell even Diaw is slightly better and teams seem to leave him open for three all the time.

As far as the games he has taken over and won for us I see that as kind of fools gold. I don't think we can accomplish the things we want to playing that style and the wins just encourage us to do it more. It is kind of like a young player making a three when it isn't really the strength of his game. Nine times out of ten that player will take another in the game and miss it because he thinks the made basket gives him a license to shoot.

We should have parted ways with Jackson while his value was really high before the trade deadline. Hopefully we can still get something this summer.

[GoBobs]

Wow.

I know you're a hater, but still. I haven't seen enough of Jack in the past to know if he's fallen off, but if he has, then he was a top 5 player in the league before he got here. :rolleyes:

I'm 99.9% sure the reason he goes 1-on-5 is because Larry (and MJ, if you watch) have told him that he's the one who has to take over. If you were watching the OKC game on the Bobcats broadcast, when he had that horrible first half, both Larry and MJ took him aside to talk, and after that he lit it up and I don't think he passed unless he couldn't shoot. He tries to pass too much, then when he turns it over he's just told to shoot. Neither is ideal, but the latter is much better for this team. And while you're correct that he's best driving to the basket, he's actually over 40% shooting (over 50% at the basket) in 7 of the 9 2pt "hotspots" on nba.com, and over 30% from 4/5 3pt "hotspots" so saying he's only efficient at the basket isn't accurate.

And Allen was almost traded as an expiring contract like T-Mac, Vince can barely drive anymore, K-Mart makes Matt Carroll look like Raja Bell on D, and Rip has a massive contract he's nowhere near worth. Jack is well above these guys. :facepalm:

He did look like a top 5 defender a few years ago. He was guarding extremely quick guards like Nash when Nash was tearing up the league. Where I think he has lost a step is in the lateral quickness area that allows you to stay in front of your man.

Also 40% from the floor and 30% from three are not efficient numbers at all.

I am a hater for a reason. Jack is holding back the development of our offense with all his chucking. He needs to at least limit it to about 16 shots on nights he doesn't have it going.

[teej]

He did look like a top 5 defender a few years ago. He was guarding extremely quick guards like Nash when Nash was tearing up the league. Where I think he has lost a step is in the lateral quickness area that allows you to stay in front of your man.

Also 40% from the floor and 30% from three are not efficient numbers at all.

I am a hater for a reason. Jack is holding back the development of our offense with all his chucking. He needs to at least limit it to about 16 shots on nights he doesn't have it going.

Has he lost a step? Maybe. Has he declined in his play? No.

And 42% from the field is solid, 32% from 3 is decent too. And DJ and Diaw are supposed to be great 3pt shooters, it's no surprise they're ahead. Last year Diaw was a 50/40 shooter before 2 bad games ruined it at the end of the year. Gerald has upped his shooting as has Ray, so that's no surprise either. Your boy Rip Hamilton is 29% on his 3's this year. Remember, Jack is the main option on a playoff team. K-Mart and Rip aren't going to the playoffs, Ray and Vince are the second or third options and are still barely shooting better percentages than Jack. While we'd all like him to understand when to reign it in, confidence is key in a shooter as we've seen with DJ so I'm not too upset with him, seeing as how he's the main reason we're even within sight of a playoff berth.

Haters keep hating, but Jack has done what no one else in this franchise ever has.

[GoBobs]

Haters keep hating, but Jack has done what no one else in this franchise ever has.

Pfffft.......like Jackson could carry this team without Wallace, the improved play of Naz or Felton. Ask GS how that worked out last year. Any notion that he can carry a team is totally false. Take Wade off the Heat and add Jackson and they are a top lottery contender.

Rip was hurt this year but has better career numbers. Carter has better career numbers too and while he was looking old for a while lately he has played great.

[mj4life]

Pfffft.......like Jackson could carry this team without Wallace, the improved play of Naz or Felton. Ask GS how that worked out last year. Any notion that he can carry a team is totally false. Take Wade off the Heat and add Jackson and they are a top lottery contender.

Rip was hurt this year but has better career numbers. Carter has better career numbers too and while he was looking old for a while lately he has played great.
nobody is claiming that he is a franchise player i think wallace is closest to that we have but jack does things well that wallace doesn't so they compliment each other well. like i posted earlier we all can debate players like carter, rip and others but today their are only 4 shooting guards( kobe, d-wade,joe j, B. roy) that clearly are better than jack NOW. again it is important to remember that LB likes players that defend which makes jack the perfect player for THIS TEAM. I dont think jack is the type of player you can put on any team and become contenders, just that his skill set shines when you have the right pieces around him

[Marvel]

D-Wade,Kobe,JJ,B-Roy and Ellis are top 5 and VC and Manu are better than Jax

[ajbry]

I'm thinking it's best not to acknowledge anything GoBobs says about Jack.


Marvel, Ellis is putting up a massive amount of shots on a horrible team (with the highest # of possessions in the league) and thus his numbers are ridiculously inflated. He was at his best when Baron and Jack were the two main guys and he could score efficiently without too much defensive attention. Ellis is still a very pedestrian (and reluctant) playmaker and has played defense for like 3 games this season. Carter is old and essentially a more passive, less defensive-oriented version of Jack. Ginobili has been great for a while but he's not really top 5 material anymore.

Where were these discussions when Jack put up 24/5/4 in the two months prior to March? Y'all need to relax.

[teej]

Pfffft.......like Jackson could carry this team without Wallace, the improved play of Naz or Felton. Ask GS how that worked out last year. Any notion that he can carry a team is totally false. Take Wade off the Heat and add Jackson and they are a top lottery contender.

Rip was hurt this year but has better career numbers. Carter has better career numbers too and while he was looking old for a while lately he has played great.

Could Jack carry the Heat? No. Could Wallace carry the Bobcats without Jack? No. Could you plug Vince, Rip, Ray Allen, K-Mart, or any other guy you've named in instead of Jack and have a winning record right now? Hell No.

Jack is carrying half the team, and GW is carrying the other half. Nazr hasn't played since the All-Star Break basically yet the team put out a 6 game win streak. They won without Naz, GW, Hughes, and Gana against Orlando.

You can't say with a straight face Jack isn't doing the heavy lifting here...unless you're Stevie Wonder (Punchdub Red, BTW.)

[teej]

I'm thinking it's best not to acknowledge anything GoBobs says about Jack.

He's the Jacksonville Village idiot :biggrin:

I'm only responding because I know some of the players read the boards and I don't want them to think we're all jackasses.

[Marvel]

I'm thinking it's best not to acknowledge anything GoBobs says about Jack.


Marvel, Ellis is putting up a massive amount of shots on a horrible team (with the highest # of possessions in the league) and thus his numbers are ridiculously inflated. He was at his best when Baron and Jack were the two main guys and he could score efficiently without too much defensive attention. Ellis is still a very pedestrian (and reluctant) playmaker and has played defense for like 3 games this season. Carter is old and essentially a more passive, less defensive-oriented version of Jack. Ginobili has been great for a while but he's not really top 5 material anymore.

Where were these discussions when Jack put up 24/5/4 in the two months prior to March? Y'all need to relax.

Defense is reliant on accountability and it's only driven through to the players through the coaching staff.Ellis is a pretty good defender when he wants to be,though he isn't held accountable, because Don Nelson doesn't hold his players accountable for it.
Ellis doesn't need to be in a fast paced system either to score 20 points a night,i've seen dude play and he can score in any type of system if need be.

[GoBobs]

I just call it like I see it. I hope he goes 15-15 next game because I am very tired of watching him in Team Killer mode.

[spectre]

He's the Jacksonville Village idiot :biggrin:

I'm only responding because I know some of the players read the boards and I don't want them to think we're all jackasses.

C'mon now. Regardless if that was said in jest it's not something that should be done...and ESPECIALLY by a mod.

I try to never backseat mod here, but as you know I detest calling posters names.

Besides...there's only one who deserves the title "Idiot".

[Toocool]

C'mon now. Regardless if that was said in jest it's not something that should be done...and ESPECIALLY by a mod.

I try to never backseat mod here, but as you know I detest calling posters names.

Besides...there's only one who deserves the title "Idiot".

You're referring to yourself yes? =DDDD
Seriously though, I agree with Marvy with Ellis. The dude can get to the hole and convert on crazy layups. Give him a tiny bit of space and he's gone flying past you to the basket.

[spectre]

I love Monta, but I'd worry about his immaturity. Sure he can outgrow it, but I don't know that I'd be wanting to pay him 11 million per year before it happened.

Jax was a quick fix at a cheap price value wise in regards to what we gave up for him, but that 28 million he's owed over the next 3 years is in no way a bargain price. He brings a lot of positives, but with that comes negatives too:

1) he can be a terrible chucker. I mean...0 for 4 contested 3s on 4 possessions in an OT where we only needed to score 2s?

2) he will pass, but sometimes he makes some of the most boneheaded passes it'll make you scream. More times than not he'll have 3 TOs in the 1st quarter, and most will be almost a straight pass to the opposition for a fast break.

3) he's easily gotten out of his game. Vs. Boston Garnett talked a little smack and after that Jax became worthless. Dude you're 31...realize what the opposition's goal is.

4) he can be a really crappy perimeter defender. Between him and Crash it's no wonder we get burnt regularly outside by the opponent's wings.

5) he is the opposite of "play the right way". He stops ball movement and he seldom passes to the perimeter when he's posting up/playing in the paint. When he plays with the 2nd unit it becomes the "Stephen Jackson Show".

We need his skillset, but would it surprise anyone that Jax is FOURTH in winshares on this team?

I don't want the above to insinuate that I don't value him as I do. He's been a big part of our winning season this year and it was a great move to trade for him what we did. I'd do it again in an instant...but I don't see him as a longtime fixture, and if we're not looking good by the next deadline (as MJ insinuated) I think he's the first "core" piece outta here.

[mj4life]

jax at this point is what we need.like iverson he is a flawed player and at times he does slow down the offense, but what jax brings to this team in terms of intensity and competive spirit can't be measured and even other teams players acknowledge this

[teej]

C'mon now. Regardless if that was said in jest it's not something that should be done...and ESPECIALLY by a mod.

I try to never backseat mod here, but as you know I detest calling posters names.

Besides...there's only one who deserves the title "Idiot".

That's probably true.

I'm not calling him an idiot in the mental sense, but as in the Middle Ages tradition of an elected village idiot as far as Stephen Jackson goes, thus the "Jackson"ville village idiot.

If it offended anyone, my apologies.

[rsxnova]

He may not be the perfect star but he is all we have. I am thankfull.


Also, SJax's contract is a bargain compared to Vlad Rad.

[superb1]

For what its worth, Jack had this to say about his injury.

But this victory came at a price. Stephen Jackson (16 points and seven rebounds) said he was in “excruciating’’ pain after the game with a bruised ligament at the base of his left index finger. He’s been nursing the injury for a month. An X-ray revealed no fracture.

“I’m getting beaten-up a lot,’’ said Jackson, who also has a bruised right heel. “It’s starting to catch up to me.’’



Wondering if his is beginning to feel the wear and tear.

[teej]

Let him skip the Minny and Washington games. Larry, Stevie and Hendo can do what he's done the last couple games.

[SWedd523]

Let him skip the Minny and Washington games. Larry, Stevie and Hendo can do what he's done the last couple games.

Shoot 3-49? ;)

[Toocool]

Perhaps Larry and Stevie would do that.
Hendo at times can't even seem to hit the side of a barn, he needs to be more aggressive on offense and show us that slashing goodness he used at Duke.