What Exactly Happened To DJ?

[DY_nasty]

Did Larry Brown ruin him? Did Stephen Jackson force him to do his laundry for the season? Did Crash take all of his protein shakes? Did Boris Diaw take him under his wing (and into the abyss)? Did he lose his contacts?

I don't think I've ever seen a player fall off this hard after a successful rookie season. Last year, one could easily say that he was the best pure point guard out of his draft and was going to take Felton's job this year with ease. Now he looks as if he's caught whatever Adam Morrison had.

Why DJ?

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ppg1l4.jpg
You were the chosen one!

[BETCATS]

Its called a sophmore slump, plenty of players have them. This is far from an unprecendented event. DJ still has a lot of time to correct the many flaws he has in his game.

[dnbman]

Did Larry Brown ruin him? Did Stephen Jackson force him to do his laundry for the season? Did Crash take all of his protein shakes? Did Boris Diaw take him under his wing (and into the abyss)? Did he lose his contacts?

I don't think I've ever seen a player fall off this hard after a successful rookie season. Last year, one could easily say that he was the best pure point guard out of his draft and was going to take Felton's job this year with ease. Now he looks as if he's caught whatever Adam Morrison had.

Why DJ?

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ppg1l4.jpg
You were the chosen one!

I don't think he was considered a pure point guard at the end of the season. He only had 3.5 assists in 26 minutes of play. It was his three point shooting and free throws, his scoring, that made him appealing.

I think DJ's decline was a combination of typical sophomore slump combined with Brown getting in his head about being a point guard rather than a pass-occasionally shooting guard.

[ND22]

Its called a sophmore slump, plenty of players have them. This is far from an unprecendented event. DJ still has a lot of time to correct the many flaws he has in his game.

I sure hope so, he has so much promise.

[DY_nasty]

Its called a sophmore slump, plenty of players have them. This is far from an unprecendented event. DJ still has a lot of time to correct the many flaws he has in his game.
This is no typical sophomore slump. He doesn't even resemble the same player that he was last year. He can't shoot, all the fluidity in his game is gone, his confidence is shot, and he's become twice as selfish somehow.

Assist numbers aren't everything, they're hardly the measure of a solid point guard. Tony Parker may never come close to averaging ten assists per game but I don't think anyone is going to say he's a poor point guard. No one is going to average a lot of assists in this system, but I don't think that anyone would argue that the offense looked better with Raymond Felton at point instead of DJ last year. And even if you want to call it a sophomore slump, could you even point out one basketball player (that didn't get injured) who's seen his game nose dive quite like DJs?

[teej]

I'm not allowed to say exactly, but all I need to say is DJ's work ethic SUCKS. While he may not have been hanging out with Boris, he's the next Boris Diaw, unless he shapes up. Obviously he never listened to Ray.

[SWedd523]

I'm not allowed to say exactly, but all I need to say is DJ's work ethic SUCKS. While he may not have been hanging out with Boris, he's the next Boris Diaw, unless he shapes up. Obviously he never listened to Ray.

I got word from an outside source that DJ was taking summer classes at Texas instead of practicing and conditioning. Bad in basketball terms but I applaud him getting an education. Hopefully he'll be finished with classes and will be focused on getting better and back to his rookie form.

[teej]

I got word from an outside source that DJ was taking summer classes at Texas instead of practicing and conditioning. Bad in basketball terms but I applaud him getting an education. Hopefully he'll be finished with classes and will be focused on getting better and back to his rookie form.

While that's all well and good, he'd still be able to work out. He's a professional athlete, thus he should focus on that, and if he wants to finish his degree, he needs to spread it out so he can still earn his paycheck. Otherwise, he'll be needing that degree quickly.

[BETCATS]

I'm not allowed to say exactly, but all I need to say is DJ's work ethic SUCKS. While he may not have been hanging out with Boris, he's the next Boris Diaw, unless he shapes up. Obviously he never listened to Ray.
I agree completely. To me, this comes from the classic 'spoiled child syndrome'. LB pampered DJ his rookie year. Shit was just given to him. This year he had to work for it, and it took him a long time to get used to working the way LB wanted him to. I hope this season has taught DJ how to work.

[Toocool]

I have no idea on the DJ situation. I'm just hoping he shapes up and puts in hard work over the off-season to come back better.

DJ in college could score and pass. I don't think he's a pure point guard, but he's not a passer either.

[SWedd523]

I have no idea on the DJ situation. I'm just hoping he shapes up and puts in hard work over the off-season to come back better.

DJ in college could score and pass. I don't think he's a pure point guard, but he's not a passer either.

I've seen DJ make some fantastic passes to teammates. He also has a much tighter handle and a better shot. He had a bad year. He can return to his rookie form.

In the 2 games he started this year he averaged 13 points, 8 assists, 3 boards, and 2 steals. ALL IN A DOWN YEAR. Well that's only 2 games you say? Let's look at last year when he wasn't playing poorly. In the 11 games he started he averaged 19 points, 6 assists, 3 boards, and 1 steal.

That compares very favorably with the production Ray has given us throughout his career.

[CarolinaBlue23]

D.J will benefit from the team actually having a summer league this year. Maybe there he can find his game again.

[Demon DeaCat]

This is no typical sophomore slump. He doesn't even resemble the same player that he was last year. He can't shoot, all the fluidity in his game is gone, his confidence is shot, and he's become twice as selfish somehow.

I disagree with this a little bit. There's no denying that there was a major drop off in DJ's play this season, but I'd say the last 10 games or so of the regular season, he seemed to find his groove and was definitely playing with a lot more confidence. He played at a very high level as a rookie, so he's certainly capable of doing that again. I have confidence that he can get back there.

[ballwhore]

I got word from an outside source that DJ was taking summer classes at Texas instead of practicing and conditioning. Bad in basketball terms but I applaud him getting an education. Hopefully he'll be finished with classes and will be focused on getting better and back to his rookie form.
Your outside source doesn't know what the hell they are talking about dj went to class for two weeks and because of his work out schedule he had to drop classes it was too much. He left Austin where he was only attending classes twice a week (and driving back to houston on off days to work with his trainer dee) so that couldn't be further from the truth. Two a days at Hightower High school morning weights and shooting evening shooting. I posted a video before the season pull it up.

[spectre]

Then why did he come into camp out of shape and on the heavy side?

What's your take on he had such a subpar season?

[SWedd523]

Thy makes my source correct? He was taking classes right? Is that not what I said? Come on testicle prostitute, your reading comprehension should be better than that. He didn't have his full attention on basketball and was thinking about his education.

Now go back and read my post again. I support him taking classes and getting an education. I'm also one of the few who support him taking the starting job next year so many you're talking to the wrong person

[BRNC]

SWedd...the problem is you're not giving the testicle prostitute the correct amount of "worshipful-awe"...nothing to do with your support for DJ...:p

[spectre]

Thy makes my source correct? He was taking classes right? Is that not what I said? Come on testicle prostitute, your reading comprehension should be better than that. He didn't have his full attention on basketball and was thinking about his education.

Now go back and read my post again. I support him taking classes and getting an education. I'm also one of the few who support him taking the starting job next year so many you're talking to the wrong person

Not to get into your jousting with the OP...but I was curious if you'd seen DJ's playoff numbers (advanced)? If I remember correctly you thought he had a pretty good series.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/augusdj01.html

Even I thought he'd done better than that.

[BRNC]

spectre...I checked everyone at NBA the day after...other than Crash they all made me "yawn"...DJ certainly did nothing to stand out...in a positive way...:facepalm:

[SWedd523]

Not to get into your jousting with the OP...but I was curious if you'd seen DJ's playoff numbers (advanced)? If I remember correctly you thought he had a pretty good series.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/augusdj01.html

Even I thought he'd done better than that.

Again, second year guy in a huge sophomore slump vs a guy who was having a career year. The disparity in their performance was nowhere near as large as it should have been. Interesting that they have the same DRtg and their win shares are within .2 of eachother.

[spectre]

Oh I agree. I was just shocked at how low DJ's were.

5.6 PER
43 TS%
35 eFG%
16.5 AST%

As bad as Felton's numbers were they completely blew DJ's away.

[spectre]

Again, second year guy in a huge sophomore slump vs a guy who was having a career year. The disparity in their performance was nowhere near as large as it should have been. Interesting that they have the same DRtg and their win shares are within .2 of eachother.

Sure...but since you brought up being the starter next year (as did the OP), the qualifiers aren't applicable.

DRtg isn't an individual stat; it's a team stat (who you're on the court with).

Either way that still wouldn't be showing DJ in a good flavor as most of his time was guarding Williams. His defense should absolutely be better considering the contribution Williams made.

EDIT:

That last paragraph isn't true nor is it fair. As DRtg is a "team" stat it doesn't really mean anything individually as (unless I'm mistaken) the bench got beat just like the starters.

The only other defensive stat that comes to mind for individuals would be defensive PER. I don't know what it would be with DJ on Nelson...but vs, Williams he absolutely won that matchup as he had a PER of -0.8. I didn't even know a player could have a negative PER!

We know Nelson blistered Felton; he had a PER of 29.6 (WOW!).

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I take exception with the whole "what happened to DJ question." DJ did disappear for much of the season but late in the season we were all saying DJ appeared to find his confidence.

DJ himself mentioned finding his confidence. Though we did not see DJ have a complete season we did see him lift his game considerably after the All Star break.

Now as far as the playoffs, nearly the whole team did not show up. Other than Crash and Tyrus Thomas nobody really seemed to make an impact.

To me the outcome was quite predictable based on how our Bobcats finished the regular season. They made many of the same mistakes against the Magic. When it was do or die to make the playoffs the Bobcats looked like crap in barely beating teams clearly out of the playoff race. I saw no cohesion amongst most of the team late in the regular season.

So, though I would agree that DJ was not the same this season as last he did shows flashes of that guy. He also showed flashes of being a facilitator this season.

Most of the players on our team are not above being waived or traded but let us not jump the gun and do so based on the playoffs or their play late in the regular season.

I truly believe the only player who has consistently hurt us is Boris. He just does not seem that invested in our team. It is really a shame because he has the talent to be a real asset to our team most nights. More often than not he does not show up.

When Emeka was day dreaming though many nights of basketball we knew he had an attitude problem or was just lazy. I feel the same with Boris. Both have talent and we have seen it when they apply themselves, but that is not often.

Anyway, other than Diaw, I don't think anybody else is a problem for next season.

Larry Brown needs to get the guys to play smarter but other than that I think we have enough talent and the right character guys to improve next season. Add a few solid pieces and we can improve to a top 4 seed imo.

[ballwhore]

Out of shape if I remember correctly most of you were saying how he bulked up which he did. So if putting on muscle equals out of shape I guess so. By the way a two week stint at UT is not exactly atttending class. Two weeks and twice a week equals four sessions and he was still driving back to houston in between. This I know! LB wasn't good for DJ hell bottomline be it that he shouldn't have let him ruin him but I can tell you now he is overjoyed and was when he thought he was gone to the Pacers to get away from LB. So, like i said your source doen't know sh#t he attend class four times in two weeks and left because it was too much with working out.

[spectre]

So what happened between last season and this season? Did he "hate" LB his rookie year too?

[DY_nasty]

Not to be a dick, but younger guys who are on the fence always play better towards the end of the season. The playoff seeding starts to set in, teams begin to tank, games overall tend to be much more relaxed. His games at the end of the season looked 'okay' (which sometimes can be better than Felton) compared to earlier in the season when he looked downright awful in every phase of the game.

[ballwhore]

So what happened between last season and this season? Did he "hate" LB his rookie year too?
Put it like this..Have you ever paid attention to the bench. If you did you would be able to tell how long it's been. No excuse hell I said he had a bad year. Im just saying days when I show up dreading my job my work isn't going to be good. Is nedding Change unheard of or something. F#ck it say LB broke him even people take to coaching different ways and some of the shit he said to him DJ didnt take well. In some ways you can attribute it to hey kid grow up in others way it's just a clash of personalities. We'll see like I said one decent year one bad next year will tell the story.

[Plowright]

Anyone remember the supposed DJ for Glen Davis trade? Well at the time i followed Jared Dudley on Twitter an he said something alon these lines " heard trade rumours about my main man DJ, i know he has had it tough this year and i hope this trade comes through" Now this was just a week or so after the cats played the suns and DJ and Jared went out for dinner together in pheonix which i also got from Jared's twitter acount. This makes you think that DJ had vented his anger and dissapointment through Jared Dudley as he wasnt a part of the cats organization. Just letting "y'all" (as southerner's say it lol) know that DJ has been anything but happy...

[spectre]

*DJ wouldn't work out for us...so there was something "there" from the beginning.

*Felton said that he took a lot of the bitching from LB in DJ's rookie season and this past year DJ got more of his share.

*I remember the Dudley tweet...it was enlightening to say the least (even if he did spell "his boy's" name wrong).

*During the last Clip game their announcers said this (quoted from the GT):


Per Clips' announcers after he made that midrange:

Talked to DJ and asked him why such a terrible 2nd season up til the last 5 games. Said he was playing too passive, trying to get his team mates involved. What got him out of it...said he "just got out of it".

Obviously LB was trying to get DJ to become more of a distributor (something he didn't show a lot of his rookie season) and according to him it was a big factor in throwing his game off.

There's obviously something that's been going on from the beginning.

My question to the OP...if DJ wasn't going to school over the summer except for just a couple of weeks why in the hell did it take him so long to come into camp? He didn't arrive in Charlotte until the week of September 24th, 2009...just a week or so before the official training camp.

If he wasn't at school him arriving near the last minute certainly doesn't make him look very good.

[Proudiddy]

Put it like this..Have you ever paid attention to the bench. If you did you would be able to tell how long it's been. No excuse hell I said he had a bad year. Im just saying days when I show up dreading my job my work isn't going to be good. Is nedding Change unheard of or something. F#ck it say LB broke him even people take to coaching different ways and some of the shit he said to him DJ didnt take well. In some ways you can attribute it to hey kid grow up in others way it's just a clash of personalities. We'll see like I said one decent year one bad next year will tell the story.

I certainly believe a coach can break down a player no matter how good they are. Confidence is HUGE in sports, ESPECIALLY in basketball.

My juco coach was like a Bob Knight type guy, or at least he thought he was. My whole life, I've been a playmaker - get to the basket, flashy passes, etc. When I started playing there, he didn't like my shot form - it got in my head. It had worked my whole life, but now all the sudden, it's not good enough? I started pressing when I'd get the ball and do stupid stuff. I ended up pretty much being a spot up shooter hoping someone would give me the ball in the corner... I was the 5'10" version of Bruce Bowen, lol. Defensive standout, occasional shot from the corner.

I was scared to touch the ball b/c I didn't want to make a mistake. And that crazy part is, in everyday life, I love for someone to tell me when I'm messing up slacking so I can fix it. But with my coach, it came off as a personal conflict, like it wasn't my game, it was ME. And it got in my head and completely messed my game up.

Next season, I came back and was killing. Getting steals, going coast to coast, hitting 3s, everything... But, I had to pretty much set myself up over the summer to competely ignore him - which is hard to do when it's your coach.

So, I can empathize with DJ. I could see it in his game when he'd get the ball. How can you perform to your best ability when you got a coach that you know doesn't want you to shine b/c of their personal loyalty to Felton? When you know your coach doesn't have confidence in you, it makes it hard on you to have confidence in you. Just look at DJ's Free Throw % drop. How do you explain that? It's you, the ball, the basket and your mind... It's confidence, it's someone tearing you down...

Any idea if he's feeling better about the situation going into next season ballwhore (with the rumors of Felton not being brought back)? I've been saying DJ should start over Felton since day one. I hope DJ likes it in Charlotte and gets that chance next season.

[spectre]

How can you perform to your best ability when you got a coach that you know doesn't want you to shine b/c of their personal loyalty to Felton? When you know your coach doesn't have confidence in you, it makes it hard on you to have confidence in you. Just look at DJ's Free Throw % drop. How do you explain that? It's you, the ball, the basket and your mind... It's confidence, it's someone tearing you down...

Any idea if he's feeling better about the situation going into next season ballwhore (with the rumors of Felton not being brought back)? I've been saying DJ should start over Felton since day one. I hope DJ likes it in Charlotte and gets that chance next season.

:confused:

LB fought with MJ to get DJ over Lopez! If anyone should have been feeling concern it should have been Felton!

First it was LB...then it was Flip. I'm shocked that someone hasn't suggested Felton has been poisoning his water bottle.

LB is well known for breaking down/building back up PGs. Maybe DJ doesn't have the stomach for that. Either way he has to take some of the responsibility.

[Demon DeaCat]

I truly believe the only player who has consistently hurt us is Boris. He just does not seem that invested in our team. It is really a shame because he has the talent to be a real asset to our team most nights. More often than not he does not show up.

When Emeka was day dreaming though many nights of basketball we knew he had an attitude problem or was just lazy. I feel the same with Boris. Both have talent and we have seen it when they apply themselves, but that is not often.

Anyway, other than Diaw, I don't think anybody else is a problem for next season.

I know this is a thread about DJ, so I apologize for going off topic, but I think this is a little unfair. Boris definitely struggled to find his role earlier in the year after we traded for Jackson and didn't play well for a stretch, but after the all-star break, he was pretty solid. He hit double figures in 29 of the last 35 games and had some pretty stellar performances. Even flirted with a triple-double on several occasions. I thought he was key to our ability to attack zone defenses with his passing ability. Yeah there were times when we probably needed him to be more assertive offensively, but to say he "consistently" hurt us just isn't true, especially the second half of the year.

I'd be the first to say I'd like to see TT get more of the minutes at PF, maybe even start, but Boris is a talented player who helped us this year and will help us next year too if he's here.

[Proudiddy]

:confused:

LB fought with MJ to get DJ over Lopez! If anyone should have been feeling concern it should have been Felton!

First it was LB...then it was Flip. I'm shocked that someone hasn't suggested Felton has been poisoning his water bottle.

LB is well known for breaking down/building back up PGs. Maybe DJ doesn't have the stomach for that. Either way he has to take some of the responsibility.

Well, that's the perception I have of it... After seeing LB's gushing over Felton in the media and protecting him when he wasn't doing so hot... Then the pre-game talk to Felton they showed before the playoff game. The UNC connection. That's how I view it.

DJ is showing all the signs of not playing with confidence, and I'm speaking from experience. In mine, I dreaded even going to practice. If DJ is feeling like LB has it out for him and Felton is already in the "building back up stage" who could blame him?

[SWedd523]

I distinctly remember DJ guarding The Human Torch (thanks again Ray) on multiple occasions, and more often than not, he was fighting through screens and forcing him into fadeaway jumpers whereas Felton was either getting burnt by the screen and letting Jameer get to the paint, or cheated off and let him drop three after three after three after.... (Hand down, man down anyone?)

DJ's PER and other "advanced" stats could also be lower because he was on the floor with Larry, Tyrus, Boris, or other lesser parts than Crash and Jack (who claim much more attention on the offensive end) so I can understand why he would be lower. Especially with half the minutes Ray played.


The fact that this discussion is even taking place is a testament to how badly Ray performed. Last year everybody was clamoring for DJ to take the starting spot because he was a 19/8 guy as a starter and otherwise played very, very well (other than his defense).

This year that calmed down because he's been in a season long shooting slump. However, his defense has shown tremendous improvement (to where it was at least on Felton's level... for at least as long as the Magic series)

It's long been a forgone conclusion that DJ is far superior to Ray offensively. Now that he has shown to be able to play defense close to Felton why wouldn't we give him a shot? I'm not willing to commit long term to mediocrity for the sake of stability. Not in Mek's case, and not in Felton's case.

As a buddy of mine told me recently. Stick a fork in Felton. He's done.

[spectre]

LB is well known for falling in and out of love with players, but I can't buy that a UNC bias is overruling everything else stuff. If that were true Sean May wouldn't be in Sacramento.

If it wasn't for LB DJ wouldn't be in Charlotte...but maybe that's why he hates him.

[spectre]

I distinctly remember DJ guarding The Human Torch (thanks again Ray) on multiple occasions, and more often than not, he was fighting through screens and forcing him into fadeaway jumpers whereas Felton was either getting burnt by the screen and letting Jameer get to the paint, or cheated off and let him drop three after three after three after.... (Hand down, man down anyone?)

You were at the 4th game right? Did you miss the stretch where DJ was on Nelson in that game in the 2nd quarter? I posted about that. I also posted on another instance in game 3 (I think). Nelson isn't in attack mode every minute; at times Felton was on him and he didn't do anything.

During that 2nd quarter of the 4th game tho Nelson took it to him like 4/5 times. He got into the paint on him and hit 2 shots...the other times he pulled them both away from the screenee and they got open shots.


DJ's PER and other "advanced" stats could also be lower because he was on the floor with Larry, Tyrus, Boris, or other lesser parts than Crash and Jack (who claim much more attention on the offensive end) so I can understand why he would be lower. Especially with half the minutes Ray played.Could be...but I thought a lot of those advance stats were individuals unlike the DTRG. Either way...they certainly don't point to a "good" 4 game series for him.

Of course no one's really do.


The fact that this discussion is even taking place is a testament to how badly Ray performed. Last year everybody was clamoring for DJ to take the starting spot because he was a 19/8 guy as a starter and otherwise played very, very well (other than his defense).No one is arguing about how badly Felton performed...wait, I take that back; some are putting it all on Felton for his failure and others (including the players and both coaches) say it's more complicated than that.

19/8...what's the 8? Assists? I guess anything is possible.

I've never thought he was as bad defensively as a lot of others. It's been his weakness in distributing the ball and looking for his own shot over getting others involved.

Do you remember the two times in the 4th game where he dribbled the ball down, never passed it and shot a contested shot?

Stuff like that.


This year that calmed down because he's been in a season long shooting slump. However, his defense has shown tremendous improvement (to where it was at least on Felton's level... for at least as long as the Magic series)Good qualifier at the end, because Felton has consistently shown to be a better defender this season. Again tho...I've never thought DJ's defense was that bad.


It's long been a forgone conclusion that DJ is far superior to Ray offensively. Now that he has shown to be able to play defense close to Felton why wouldn't we give him a shot? I'm not willing to commit long term to mediocrity for the sake of stability. Not in Mek's case, and not in Felton's case.In shooting 3s. Even in his rookie season he shot an inferior 2 pt % to Felton...and that's not something to be bragging about (it was close though). He was actually WORSE than Felton finishing at the rim his rookie season. His assist rate nor his assist/t'over rate has never been as good as Felton's.


As a buddy of mine told me recently. Stick a fork in Felton. He's done.Eh...we'll see. According to Ingram a month ago the Bobcats considered it a high priority to re-sign him. Maybe those 4 games totally changed their minds. Maybe not.

[ballwhore]

@Spectre... The reason he came to the camp at the last minute is for all we are discussing. He wasn't looking forward to coming to camp who shows up to a job they hate 30 minutes early. Bet your bottom dollar he'll be there this year early in a house and not a condo in south park that in itself is a commitment to the imminent change coming. I'll have more info tonigh or tomorrow he is coming home tonight. I'll let you guys know some of what I find out. By the way he loves Charlotte Higgins, and of course Jordan. LB not so much.

[Fred Williamson]

I'm not willing to commit long term to mediocrity for the sake of stability. Not in Mek's case, and not in Felton's case.

As a buddy of mine told me recently. Stick a fork in Felton. He's done.

:yeahthat:

I'll have more info tonigh or tomorrow he is coming home tonight. I'll let you guys know some of what I find out.

please do so

[spectre]

@Spectre... The reason he came to the camp at the last minute is for all we are discussing. He wasn't looking forward to coming to camp who shows up to a job they hate 30 minutes early. Bet your bottom dollar he'll be there this year early in a house and not a condo in south park that in itself is a commitment to the imminent change coming. I'll have more info tonigh or tomorrow he is coming home tonight. I'll let you guys know some of what I find out. By the way he loves Charlotte Higgins, and of course Jordan. LB not so much.

Ah...I was assuming the "hate" came about this year since it didn't seem to affect him last season so much. I guess you're saying that it just got so bad for him that it didn't really affect his game until this year?

[spectre]

:yeahthat:


please do so

Would it be for mediocrity or a step or two back?

Either way...just because someone signs a contract doesn't mean he's here for the life of it. As nasty as Mek's contract was I think we still came out ahead in that deal. If we'd have let Mek walk we'd have been a lot worse off that following season.

All this is pointless. Until we know LB's decision (sorry...not taking the OP's word as gospel) no one really has any idea in what direction the FO is headed.

I do want to hit on one thing I missed to Swedd's post; DJ was playing with Hughes, etc. mainly...but he was guarded by Jason Williams. I can't believe anyone wouldn't think going 5 for 17 against him isn't a huge disappointment...esp. considering that scoring is DJ's forte.

[teej]

Swedd, I totally respect you, you're one of the better basketball minds on this board and you know your stuff. But please, for the love of all things holy, give me back my homer glasses. Holy shit, you're making DJ out to be a halfway decent defender and offensive stalwart. I love this team, and I'll support (almost) anything they do, but jeez-us, there's no way you can honestly believe starting DJ on this team is a good thing.

With MJ at the helm, mediocrity or getting worse isn't an option. That's my only hope about this point guard situation.

[Proudiddy]

@Spectre... The reason he came to the camp at the last minute is for all we are discussing. He wasn't looking forward to coming to camp who shows up to a job they hate 30 minutes early. Bet your bottom dollar he'll be there this year early in a house and not a condo in south park that in itself is a commitment to the imminent change coming. I'll have more info tonigh or tomorrow he is coming home tonight. I'll let you guys know some of what I find out. By the way he loves Charlotte Higgins, and of course Jordan. LB not so much.

Thanks, good to hear!

[Marvel]

No doubt, a player whose not happy will basically produce 50% or less of his full potential.I was actually shocked DJ was still here after the TD.I know he's a better player than this and i was actually hoping he would be traded because he just isn't getting on with LB.LB doesn't like him and maybe DJ feels the same way.
Felton is done, start DJ next season baby.
WHAT.

[BRNC]

I for one am not sold on DJ as the starter next season and I'll give you a couple of reasons..

1). I work for Rod Higgins (not true but making a point) and know that a few players and some of my FO employees come to this forum and read it...I have an employee (DJ Augustine) that is sharing sensitive in-house information with a friend and it is being posted here...do you actually think (if I'm Rod) that I have any trust at all in this employee?

2) ...as Rod I know I have an employee (DJ Augustine) that I don't trust so I'd like to trade him for as much "value" as possible...so I let him "leak" information that he's going to be the starter next year...this increases his value (to other organizations) and lowers Raymond Felton's value (so I can resign Ray at the lowest possible price)...

3)...now remember I'm making a point here...I do not work for Rod (if I did I'd never admit it) but pointing these things out as someone who has been at the top of management and how I'd view in-house information leaks and how I'd deal with it...

[SWedd523]

I for one am not sold on DJ as the starter next season and I'll give you a couple of reasons..

1). I work for Rod Higgins (not true but making a point) and know that a few players and some of my FO employees come to this forum and read it...I have an employee (DJ Augustine) that is sharing sensitive in-house information with a friend and it is being posted here...do you actually think (if I'm Rod) that I have any trust at all in this employee?

2) ...as Rod I know I have an employee (DJ Augustine) that I don't trust so I'd like to trade him for as much "value" as possible...so I let him "leak" information that he's going to be the starter next year...this increases his value (to other organizations) and lowers Raymond Felton's value (so I can resign Ray at the lowest possible price)...

3)...now remember I'm making a point here...I do not work for Rod (if I did I'd never admit it) but pointing these things out as someone who has been at the top of management and how I'd view in-house information leaks and how I'd deal with it...


19/8 as a starter last year
13/6 as a starter this year



Give him the minutes and he will perform.

[BRNC]

SWedd...I'm not saying DJ is a "bad player"...IMO he is not an NBA starting PG...but given my scenario above...

...as a teammate would you trust this guy...as an executive in the FO would you trust this guy?

[spectre]

19/8 as a starter last year

...with Felton beside him taking the stronger player.


13/6 as a starter this year

...vs. Minny & Detroit...neither of which had a quality starting PG to match up against (Flynn: opponent's PER of 18.6...Stuckey was out) and both had a combined record of 42 wins.


Give him the minutes and he will perform.

...only if you're going on hope and prayer.

[spectre]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AoK865rRG9_Tv_bazneE2_rUPaB4?slug=teamre ports-2010-nba-cha


Player Notes:

• G Raymond Felton already turned down about $7 million a season when he was a restricted free agent last summer. It’s hard to imagine the Bobcats would offer him much more, or perhaps as much, after he was so severely outplayed in the postseason by Orlando’s Jameer Nelson (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3837/;_ylt=AqfQ6h4OAdSCOenJgtRsLB0ArpJ4)(notes) (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3837/news;_ylt=AruWR4w.9.6XPH5PRsQX8rgArpJ4). Felton is supposed to be a strong defender, but he couldn’t keep Nelson in front of him or avoid separation when Nelson wanted to shoot a three-pointer.

• G D.J. Augustin (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4471/;_ylt=AkbrmnrNjb5Z4Gsogw4dt.MArpJ4)(notes) (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4471/news;_ylt=AoF2D6SpY3ZK0_vQ1xOQn4wArpJ4) has given the Bobcats little reason to have conviction that he’s a starting NBA point guard, which in a backhanded way might be the best argument for paying Raymond Felton to stick around. Augustin is primarily a three-point shooter, but he’s small at 6-foot and 180 pounds, and he struggles to fight his way through pick-and-rolls.

[ballwhore]

I for one am not sold on DJ as the starter next season and I'll give you a couple of reasons..

1). I work for Rod Higgins (not true but making a point) and know that a few players and some of my FO employees come to this forum and read it...I have an employee (DJ Augustine) that is sharing sensitive in-house information with a friend and it is being posted here...do you actually think (if I'm Rod) that I have any trust at all in this employee?

2) ...as Rod I know I have an employee (DJ Augustine) that I don't trust so I'd like to trade him for as much "value" as possible...so I let him "leak" information that he's going to be the starter next year...this increases his value (to other organizations) and lowers Raymond Felton's value (so I can resign Ray at the lowest possible price)...

3)...now remember I'm making a point here...I do not work for Rod (if I did I'd never admit it) but pointing these things out as someone who has been at the top of management and how I'd view in-house information leaks and how I'd deal with it...

Man..Please..You make a point though so ill keep my info or misinfo to myself who knows you mat call Higgins attention to these threads..Without leaks you would'nt have reporters though you are aware of that...How does someone value increase off of a shitty year can you explain that? Your trumped up scenario makes no sense to me.

[DY_nasty]

Yeah, I don't see how DJ's value went up this year either. The only real incentive that the organization has to play DJ at this point is to show to their fans that they didn't completely fail in a draft where they had two lottery picks... again.

[ballwhore]

Either they will look like masterminds or assholes. Similar situations happen all the time in pro sports. Sure we all like the bobcats but let's not be homers for a second. Felton in five years hasn't been just off the charts great or even good enough to pay the money he is commanding. Sometimes you got to shake shit up and get away from the norm. See:Philadelphia Eagles (I know its another sport) but hell same scenario.

[spectre]

Right...and we should have just traded Crash and let Ammo start just so we wouldn't look bad.

:hysterical:

[docend24]

While that's all well and good, he'd still be able to work out. He's a professional athlete, thus he should focus on that, and if he wants to finish his degree, he needs to spread it out so he can still earn his paycheck. Otherwise, he'll be needing that degree quickly.
Sean May was professional athlete too.

[ballwhore]

Right...and we should have just traded Crash and let Ammo start just so we wouldn't look bad.

:hysterical:
Spectre did you miss the part where I said they could look like assholes for letting Felton go?

[SWedd523]

Spectre did you miss the part where I said they could look like assholes for letting Felton go?

He couldn't read that through his I Heart Felton Sunglasses

[biz]

I went to game 3, as I'm sure a lot of us on this board did, but watched the broadcast when I got home. Before the game, they showed a scene in the locker room where Larry Brown was giving his motivational pre-game speech and whatnot, and you can see DJ in the background yawning, leaning back, and seeming generally disinterested. I found it to be slightly disrespectful. I don't mean to read too much into this, but... his demeanor looked like he was attending an 8AM calculus class w/ a boring teacher, not preparing to play one of the most important games of his life.

[Scottley Crue]

Either they will look like masterminds or assholes. Similar situations happen all the time in pro sports. Sure we all like the bobcats but let's not be homers for a second. Felton in five years hasn't been just off the charts great or even good enough to pay the money he is commanding. Sometimes you got to shake shit up and get away from the norm. See:Philadelphia Eagles (I know its another sport) but hell same scenario.
I agree with you on this, especially about a shake-up. If this team is to move forward, they're most likely going to have to move/shed some key pieces in order to get more talent. Felton is a key piece of this team, so perhaps he's the first to go in an attempt to improve.

Don't know if you know, but is Felton still looking for north of $10 million a year? If so, then in my mind, that money would be better spent going towards a low-post threat and a solid vet to shore up the PG spot with DJ.

[spectre]

Spectre did you miss the part where I said they could look like assholes for letting Felton go?

So? Wasn't the rest of your post advocating the idea that DY_nasty threw out there? I fail to see how that little disclaimer at the beginning changes the meaning of the rest of it.


He couldn't read that through his I Heart Felton Sunglasses

Ah...the old "fallback to insults" ploy. And you a fresh moderator too.

A few words about the tone (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10610)

I thought you'd be enforcing that instead of skirting around it.

[spectre]

Don't know if you know, but is Felton still looking for north of $10 million a year? If so, then in my mind, that money would be better spent going towards a low-post threat and a solid vet to shore up the PG spot with DJ.

Where did you hear he was looking for more than 10 million?

[SWedd523]

Insulting you would have been something along the lines of, "You're an idiot." I Heart Felton is only an insult if it hits home.




http://www.asiaone.com/A1MEDIA/health/08Aug08/images/20080830.004029_truth-hurts-top.jpg

[spectre]

Insulting you would have been something along the lines of, "You're an idiot." I Heart Felton is only an insult if it hits home.

How is it an insult if it "hits home"? If it were true it wouldn't bother me at all!

Here...I'll help you out:


1. to treat or speak to insolently or with contemptuous rudeness; affront.

2. to affect as an affront; offend or demean.
You're also making a personal comment about me...or do you get to ignore stuff like that when you're a moderator?

Cute pic tho.

[110oldeast]

I'm trying to get what DJ showed that made him slam dunk ahead in this series. Beyond the fact that Felton is being independently (who among coach and players were consistently up to par in this series? maybe Crash and/or TT?) scapegoated (pretty standard when anything goes wrong in the franchise), I am still trying to understand how DJ going against Jameer in an aggressive pick and roll situation and either picking up a foul, allowing penetration into the lane for a shot, or for a pass in the possible 8-10 minutes he played Nelson like Felton in the series shows this much. And Nelson hit some tough fadeaways when Felton was in there, when he played unconsicous. It was more a matter of whether the shot win or not most of the itme. I guess DJ was responsible for Crash stepping in and taking a charge the other time Nelson got into the lane on the pick and roll too, right? DJ getting picked off like Felton set that up.

While Felton certainly had his issues, it seemed like there was more success when the Big Man involved in the pick and roll was either Tyrus Thomas or Tyson Chandler for the most part. There is a reason for this. They know how to EFFECTIVELY SHOW. Theo, Nazr, and Boris often over-retreated, were passive and/or slow footed, showed with a poor angle and Boris even one time was on the wrong side of the screen (I've never seen that happen). When given a chance to recover, Felton's defense was consistently better than when he trailed only to have the helper SELFISHLY stay with their own man and leave him playing catch up. It's a crock of shit to hang Felton out to dry on this for one series when the guy was the head of the defense taking on the ball all year when we were one of the top defensive teams in the league. He didn't singlehandedly get beat by Jameer anymore than any of our centers singlehandedly shut down Dwight "why the fuck do we keep doubling him and letting their shooters get off early LB" Howard.

Bonnell kept hammering home that the biggest mismatch was Nelson vs. Felton, but what he conveniently ignored is that it was because we CONSTANTLY paid so much attention to the Howard mismatch. Question, if this was the mismatch it was stated to be, why would LB not have his guys hard double the screen when their big guy set it up instead of having big guys hang on to their big man? Why didn't LB let the big guys play one on one with Dwight instead of doubling on him and putting us in scramble mode when he kicked it out if that were less of an individual mismatch?

Pick and roll defense is the ultimate TEAM defense and will always depend on a clear plan between helper and helpee. If I trail, you show. If you don't show, I have to go under and give up the 3. It's not all on the guard. If it were all on the guard, answer me this: Why do teams game plan to involve SHAQ in the pick and roll? He's not a guard is he?

Again my bigger issue was us (by Ray's call, LB's or whomever) not having Ray use the pick and roll to aggressively go back at Nelson and make him work on the other end of the court, especially as it was clear Jack didn't have it.

Again, all I got from this was that DJ could defend Jason Williams more easily than Felton could defend Nelson. But I could have guessed that without watching the series.

[DY_nasty]

When it comes to Felton in the Magic series, I lost all faith in him in game 1. On a fastbreak, Jameer came up the floor while Boris and Felton were getting back on D - instead of putting a hand in the guy's face, Felton just sits back by the free throw line and looks at him hit yet another wide open 3 in rhythm.

All the PnR and team defensive schemes don't mean jack when you're letting a guy (who's clearly in a rhythm) just pull up in your face like that. It also doesn't mean jack when you just let him fly right by you when there isn't even a pick or screen being set. All that 'let me be the leader' talk is really cheap when you get abused like that. I mean, it wasn't even a respectable torching it was an all out embarrassment... but thats another topic.

Still, I hope its just the classes or whatever thats bothering DJ. 'Sophomore slumps' like this don't typically exist in the NBA.

[kickazzz2000]

I'm still waiting for a hard foul on the lil' cocky midget to set a tone/break his rhythm a bit. Anyone?


Maybe in game 5. Oh wait.

[teej]

He couldn't read that through his I Heart Felton Sunglasses

And apparently, you can't read anything at all through your I heart DJ sunglasses...:cool:

[Toocool]

And apparently, you can't read anything at all through your I heart DJ sunglasses...:cool:

You can't read anything through your I heart Toocool sunglasses without thinking how awesome I am :biggrin:

[SWedd523]

And apparently, you can't read anything at all through your I heart DJ sunglasses...:cool:

When's the marriage? Who's gonna change their last name, you or spectre?

Obviously this discussion is pointless. ThIs baseless "I heart DJ" comment is just hillarious. I have never been a DJ homer but whatever works for you sweetheart. Raymond "Mr. Gasoline" Felton is clearly the top priority. The guy who got pushed by a ROOKIE who according to many people isn even a true point, and then later got torched for 4 straight games is obviously much more valuable to this team than Tyrus Thomas.

Let's just let Ty walk and lose a first rounder in the process just because we're too scared to lose an average PG in Ray, especially when this is a PG driven league. It's cool though, he'll get us to another first round sweep next year which is totally awesome because that's our goal right? Must be is were going to lock into him for the remainder of Crash's prime.

I'm not going down this dead end road with hard headed Felton homers anymore. You'll have to drop the security blanket sooner or later guys. Better to do it now than waste Crash's time.

This concludes my time in this thread.

[110oldeast]

I'm glad those plays from Game 1 stand out to you. And yet, there was still 7 halves of basketball after that. In Games 2 and 4, he was 8 of 23 from the floor. In Game 3, he exploded again and hit 5 3s. He hit 3 off Dwight Howard kickouts (again why are we doubling him and letting the shooters get off), one off a Rashad Lewis kickout (helping off a 2 pt shooter) and the other off a 3 pt runner with continuation. While Felton again deserves PLENTY of criticism for his play (criticism I have given as well), there were SYSTEMATIC and PHILOSOPHICAL defensive issues in our approach to defending Orlando that set a tone for much of it.

As much as it pains LB, Orlando is a team you have to defend OUTSIDE/IN. When has Dwight Howard individual beat a good team? Seriously? The old Carolina philosophy of forcing them into outside shots and keeping Dwight from beating is the exact OPPOSITE approach to be taken against a team like Orlando. Jameer averaged 12.5 pts against us all year, averaged 13 pts in 19 career games and then he just explodes out of nowhere and it means everything needs to be turned upside down? Again, Felton was not where anyone wanted him to be, but his biggest issue was not being OFFENSIVELY AGGRESSIVE as anything else.

In the ONE game we have beaten them in the last however many:

Dwight Howard had 27 pts on 12-14 shots (that would be the actual biggest mismatch if we defended it 1 one 1).

Orlando shot 11-32 (34%) from 3 and 22-40 from 2.

Jack was huge (maybe his best shooting and passing game) and we didn't have Crash, but Felton was another aggressive contributor offensively with 16 pts and 7 assists. We let Howard get his and limited their pg and 3 pt shooting.

In the best other chance we had to beat them (2009--Bell missed FT that could have prevented OT; JJ tying 3 game), Dwight Howard had 45 pts on 16-23 shots and 13-18 from the line .

Orlando was 9-24 from 3 (8-23--35% if we don't let JJ shoot his to put us in OT) and 26-56 from 2 and (got minimal from the pgs--Lue and Johnson). Felton was aggressive with 22 pts 4 assists in regulation where we had the game won.

Not that we could have a blueprint for beating them, but again why the hell would you not tap into either of these games (esp. the one we closed) when you did beat them? Why would you all of a sudden make the series about not letting Howard get off? Limiting Orlando from the PERIMETER is how we beat them before. Yes, that is exactly what happened. Orlando and Jameer noticed it and the only folks trying to make this into some purely individual thing are folks trying to make a point with Felton.

Why would we go into the series, doubling Howard, giving quality 3 pt looks, having guys stay on him when he sets a pick for Nelson and allow Nelson to have a free run at the basket? If our pg was aggressive and significant in us competing with Orlando and better things happened when he was aggressive, why would that not continue? As much as some folks like to say he is incompetent offensively, it's not true. The issue this series was him continuing to defer offensively instead of attacking and our obsession with taking Howard out of the game offensively, when his offense does not make Orlando go, giving Orlando early offensive confidence on the perimeter. Finally, having our leading scorer in Jack have his worst set of games (29% fg; 8% 3pt) in the 3 chances we had to win, pretty much killed us having a chance to win this series.

The crazy irony of it all is that in spite of it being a 4 game series, there was only one game we had no shot in. Again, I think some folks are either panicking or taking this as an opportunity to push for moves they already wanted even when were doing well.




When it comes to Felton in the Magic series, I lost all faith in him in game 1. On a fastbreak, Jameer came up the floor while Boris and Felton were getting back on D - instead of putting a hand in the guy's face, Felton just sits back by the free throw line and looks at him hit yet another wide open 3 in rhythm.

All the PnR and team defensive schemes don't mean jack when you're letting a guy (who's clearly in a rhythm) just pull up in your face like that. It also doesn't mean jack when you just let him fly right by you when there isn't even a pick or screen being set. All that 'let me be the leader' talk is really cheap when you get abused like that. I mean, it wasn't even a respectable torching it was an all out embarrassment... but thats another topic.

Still, I hope its just the classes or whatever thats bothering DJ. 'Sophomore slumps' like this don't typically exist in the NBA.

[Scottley Crue]

Where did you hear he was looking for more than 10 million?
IIRC, wasn't the firgure Ballwhore put out there last year during Felton's contract talks something like $10-12 million a year? I could easily be wrong, but that's the number I'm remembering.

If that's still the case, then the choice is about as easy as it gets for the FO, as far as I'm concerned.

[110oldeast]

Tyrus Thomas is more "valuable" to this team? He's already proven this?

I really love how again, one effing series against a team who has OWNED us our ENTIRE existence leads to these broad sweeping conclusions.

Felton was very valuable in us having the season we did and now we want to act like he is garbage who was carried by the team. Give me a break.

When Jameer's team got swept by the defending Eastern Conference Champs and Billups handed him his ass in ALL 4 games, Orlando made a mistake by keeping that avg. pg (whose numbers all year were almost identical to Felton's) right?

Tyrus Thomas by having a solid game 3 and strong Game 4 in which we lost games has already proven more valuable than the guy who our pg all year, how?


When's the marriage? Who's gonna change their last name, you or spectre?

Obviously this discussion is pointless. ThIs baseless "I heart DJ" comment is just hillarious. I have never been a DJ homer but whatever works for you sweetheart. Raymond "Mr. Gasoline" Felton is clearly the top priority. The guy who got pushed by a ROOKIE who according to many people isn even a true point, and then later got torched for 4 straight games is obviously much more valuable to this team than Tyrus Thomas.

Let's just let Ty walk and lose a first rounder in the process just because we're too scared to lose an average PG in Ray, especially when this is a PG driven league. It's cool though, he'll get us to another first round sweep next year which is totally awesome because that's our goal right? Must be is were going to lock into him for the remainder of Crash's prime.

I'm not going down this dead end road with hard headed Felton homers anymore. You'll have to drop the security blanket sooner or later guys. Better to do it now than waste Crash's time.

This concludes my time in this thread.

[110oldeast]

Obviously if Felton asked that, I don't think ANYONE would be in favor of signing him for that.

I also doubt very seriously he would would really ask for that this year (not that I think he did next year).


IIRC, wasn't the firgure Ballwhore put out there last year during Felton's contract talks something like $10-12 million a year? I could easily be wrong, but that's the number I'm remembering.

If that's still the case, then the choice is about as easy as it gets for the FO, as far as I'm concerned.

[110oldeast]

PS: Torched would describe 2 games. Games 1 and 3.

4-12 and 4-11 in games 2 and 4 is not a torching, but I don't expect folks to stop going for effect in this.



When's the marriage? Who's gonna change their last name, you or spectre?

Obviously this discussion is pointless. ThIs baseless "I heart DJ" comment is just hillarious. I have never been a DJ homer but whatever works for you sweetheart. Raymond "Mr. Gasoline" Felton is clearly the top priority. The guy who got pushed by a ROOKIE who according to many people isn even a true point, and then later got torched for 4 straight games is obviously much more valuable to this team than Tyrus Thomas.

Let's just let Ty walk and lose a first rounder in the process just because we're too scared to lose an average PG in Ray, especially when this is a PG driven league. It's cool though, he'll get us to another first round sweep next year which is totally awesome because that's our goal right? Must be is were going to lock into him for the remainder of Crash's prime.

I'm not going down this dead end road with hard headed Felton homers anymore. You'll have to drop the security blanket sooner or later guys. Better to do it now than waste Crash's time.

This concludes my time in this thread.

[spectre]

IIRC, wasn't the firgure Ballwhore put out there last year during Felton's contract talks something like $10-12 million a year? I could easily be wrong, but that's the number I'm remembering.

If that's still the case, then the choice is about as easy as it gets for the FO, as far as I'm concerned.

Ah!

You are more than welcome to believe who you want. He could have certainly said that's what he's holding out for...but I don't think anyone would seriously think he'd ever get that.


When's the marriage? Who's gonna change their last name, you or spectre?

Just can't help yourself can you? :facepalm:


Let's just let Ty walk and lose a first rounder in the process just because we're too scared to lose an average PG in Ray, especially when this is a PG driven league. It's cool though, he'll get us to another first round sweep next year which is totally awesome because that's our goal right? Must be is were going to lock into him for the remainder of Crash's prime.

Hah...nice change of tactic! Thing is we can keep both. With the tax not falling much at all and with our two big expirings it really shouldn't be much of a problem.

Whether we do that or even something else...who knows. Maybe the FO will surprise us and trade for Devin Harris or another superior PG.

The 2nd part doesn't really hold water either...as you're advocating starting a WORSE PG then the status quo. Contract length means nothing (see Okafor, Emeka) and we can move anyone at any time. Kind of a false argument to insinuate that we have to hold onto him or anyone just because we sign him to a contract.

So far as him giving us a playoffs sweep, at least "he" GOT us there...which WAS the goal for this season.

Scream "homer" to the high heavens...but you just continue to be wrong. The choice here in this discussion isn't about Felton and other choices for PG...it's between Felton & DJ. Favoring the one who has consistently been better is just common sense...which beats "hope" any day.


This concludes my time in this thread.

Hopefully this also concludes your foray into trying to make a poster part of the discussion. I've done my best not to take shots at you personally...but I'm not going to hold off forever.

[teej]

When's the marriage? Who's gonna change their last name, you or spectre?

Obviously this discussion is pointless. ThIs baseless "I heart DJ" comment is just hillarious. I have never been a DJ homer but whatever works for you sweetheart.

It has nothing to do with me or spectre. I said you like DJ because your comment to spectre was just as "off-base." Spectre prefers Ray at the moment, but I think he's made it very clear he wouldn't mind someone else at all. I've said the same thing. I just don't like DJ. The stats back one of us up, swedd, and it's not you.

And how has a backup power forward who is a head case and can't get more than 25 minutes a game proven himself to be more valuable than a point guard who has started 369 games and averaged 12+ ppg/5+ assists/3+rebounds every season of his career? C'mon, Swedd.

[SWedd523]

When Jameer's team got swept by the defending Eastern Conference Champs and Billups handed him his ass in ALL 4 games, Orlando made a mistake by keeping that avg. pg (whose numbers all year were almost identical to Felton's) right?

I assume the argument you're trying to make is that Jameer is a much more playoff savvy guy than Felton right? He's been there so many times that he just knows what to do?

Games played by Chauncey in the playoffs the 4 years leading up to their sweep of the Magic: 14, 23, 25, 18.

Games played by Jameer in the playoffs the 3 years leading up to their sweep of the Bobcats: 4, 10, 5

Remember that last year, when the Magic made it to the Finals. He was hurt and wasn't part of their playoffs until the actual finals. With all that in mind, I have no idea where your claim comes from, especially since they're two completely different situations. Jameer got better because his team got better with Dwight developing, Lewis coming to town, Turkoglu coming into his own, etc.



PS: Torched would describe 2 games. Games 1 and 3.

4-12 and 4-11 in games 2 and 4 is not a torching, but I don't expect folks to stop going for effect in this.

PS: Torched equates to his performance over the entire series. In which he is averaging 24, 5, and 3 on .468 FG% and .427 3PT%

That = torched.


Just can't help yourself can you :facepalm:

You make it much too easy.




Hah...nice change of tactic! Thing is we can keep both. With the tax not falling much at all and with our two big expirings it really shouldn't be much of a problem.

Whether we do that or even something else...who knows. Maybe the FO will surprise us and trade for Devin Harris or another superior PG.

I don't see how that equates to a change of tactic, but okay. My entire point of argument has been Ray vs. Tyrus. You and teej though deem it necessary to turn it into a Ray vs. DJ for some reason?

After MJ saying we may need to make another "money" trade that may not make sense basketball-wise, do you seriously believe he'll go into the season with both under contract and the team over the limit?


The 2nd part doesn't really hold water either...as you're advocating starting a WORSE PG then the status quo. Contract length means nothing (see Okafor, Emeka) and we can move anyone at any time. Kind of a false argument to insinuate that we have to hold onto him or anyone just because we sign him to a contract.

The point of letting DJ start and going after a guy like say, Chris Paul makes the status quo lower for the next couple of years, sure. But the reward is much higher than what it would be if we were locked into ray. 2 years of DJ and 7 of CP3 are much more attractive than 5 years of Ray.

I wouldn't make the "we can trade anyone" claim, it depends entirely too much on whether or not we meet his contract demands. He's already driven his value down with the Playoffs, who's to say it'll go back up? I also don't see how it's a false argument when (according to LB) we can't trade a guy like Diop, DeSagana because of his contract.



So far as him giving us a playoffs sweep, at least "he" GOT us there...which WAS the goal for this season.

I thought it was pretty much a consensus that it was Jack who got us there and not Ray? Ray was part of the 3-9 team right? The team that was headed to the lottery had we not traded for..... Stephen Jackson. Our goal isn't "get to the playoffs" anymore. It's advance in the playoffs.


Scream "homer" to the high heavens...but you just continue to be wrong.

Do we need to ask Slam, Walt, or anybody else on RGM if you're a Felton homer or not? I'm definitely not wrong. There is nothing wrong with being a homer. I'm a Deron Williams homer. The issue is that it's blinding you (get the sunglasses remark now?) from realizing that he's tapped out on his potential and that we need to move forward with the franchise. We did it with the average Mek and benefitted from it. We can do the same with the average Ray.


The choice here in this discussion isn't about Felton and other choices for PG...it's between Felton & DJ. Favoring the one who has consistently been better is just common sense...which beats "hope" any day.

He should have been better than a rookie DJ last year but Per36 numbers show that DJ had a higher FG%, 3PT%, FT%, PPG, and fewer turnovers. As a rookie. He was better this year mainly because DJ was dealing with all sorts of off the court issues that hampered his production. He's been better half the years that DJ has been in the league. Not "consistently".




Hopefully this also concludes your foray into trying to make a poster part of the discussion. I've done my best not to take shots at you personally...but I'm not going to hold off forever.

Does this also mean you'll stop whining to Ziggy and asking him to yell at me for you? :facepalm:


The stats back one of us up, swedd, and it's not you.

http://www.o--rly.com/owl_orly.png

There's another poster for ya spectre ;)

Since you seem to believe that stats back the two of you up and not me, let's take a look at them shall we? I'll even bold the ones in which either player is superior to make it easier to see.

DJ as a starter in his rookie year: 18p, 6a, 2t, 2r, 1s, .467 FG%, .534 3PT%, .872 FT%,

Ray as a starter in DJ's rookie year: 14p, 7a, 3t, 4r, 1.5s, .408 FG%, .284 3PT%, .808 FT%




I see 5 things bolded for DJ and....... 2 for Ray. Ruh roh Raggy!


And how has a backup power forward who is a head case and can't get more than 25 minutes a game proven himself to be more valuable than a point guard who has started 369 games and averaged 12+ ppg/5+ assists/3+rebounds every season of his career? C'mon, Swedd.

Simple. The FO was going to trade for TJ Ford until it got nixed at the deadline right? We traded Flip and a FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK for Tyrus right? Seems as if the FO did all the "who's more valuable" talking for all of us.

[DY_nasty]

Jameer was a better point guard than Raymond from day one. He's always been better, and trying to compare Raymond's stats on a team that hasn't really changed its playstyle much over the years to Jameer's team which became rapidly different over each season is laughable. Especially when you consider that those Pistons teams were stout.

Also, those remarks in game 1... Ray never showed that he could handle Jameer 1 on 1 at any occasion during the series. I could care less about the NBA season, the playoffs are what counts. And all Ray did in the playoffs was lay an egg, each and every game. Again, you can pull stats on shooting percentages all day long but at the end of the day its clear to everyone that watched the series that Ray was shown up. And if you want to give him a contract, you have to consider the fact that he's been in the league long enough to be considered a veteran by most, that he's shown very little improvement over the years, and that in his first playoff series he got his skirt lifted up for all to see.

Fun fact: According the most of the NBA, he's not even worth guarding on the perimeter. lulz

Again, for the record, I like Ray... but it is what it is. He failed his expectations miserably.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT DJ.

The school thing sounds nice, but it really doesn't add up. Its a long season, and even in garbage time he didn't shine. I really have a hard time thinking of any real highlights of his season as well... Does he have a drinking problem? Did his dog die? Is he a Modern Warfare 2 addict? Did the training staff enforce a strict diet of Nutella? Did Ray put a screw in his tuna?

[spectre]

I don't see how that equates to a change of tactic, but okay. My entire point of argument has been Ray vs. Tyrus. You and teej though deem it necessary to turn it into a Ray vs. DJ for some reason?

What the hell is the name of the thread we're posting in? Do you see "Tyrus" anywhere in that title?


After MJ saying we may need to make another "money" trade that may not make sense basketball-wise, do you seriously believe he'll go into the season with both under contract and the team over the limit?

I don't know what he'll do, but with both TC & Nazr's expirings it's certainly feasible. Expirings are valuable, and with all the teams under cap and most likely staying under the cap (there's only so many big FAs) getting under the LT before the deadline is absolutely realistic.


The point of letting DJ start and going after a guy like say, Chris Paul makes the status quo lower for the next couple of years, sure. But the reward is much higher than what it would be if we were locked into ray. 2 years of DJ and 7 of CP3 are much more attractive than 5 years of Ray.

I wouldn't make the "we can trade anyone" claim, it depends entirely too much on whether or not we meet his contract demands. He's already driven his value down with the Playoffs, who's to say it'll go back up? I also don't see how it's a false argument when (according to LB) we can't trade a guy like Diop, DeSagana because of his contract.

Yeah...Gana's a good example. The dude has no offensive skills and can't stay on the court for foul trouble. A consistent rotation guy is almost always tradable, and I imagine we can move anyone on our squad except probably Gana.

There's no need to step back when you can move a contract in two years to get another PG, be it Paul or anyone else. This franchise can't afford to take a step back.


I thought it was pretty much a consensus that it was Jack who got us there and not Ray? Ray was part of the 3-9 team right? The team that was headed to the lottery had we not traded for..... Stephen Jackson. Our goal isn't "get to the playoffs" anymore. It's advance in the playoffs.

Felton got us into the playoffs. Crash got us into the playoffs. Jax got us into the playoffs. If we'd lost any of those three for the season most likely we wouldn't have gotten in.

For this past season the goal was to GET to the playoffs. Didn't you hear about the first conversation between Crash & Jax. That was the goal.

Now, you're right. But since I don't blame one guy (or give just one guy credit) I think this team can get better in the short term. Jordan pointed out that this team needs more time.


Do we need to ask Slam, Walt, or anybody else on RGM if you're a Felton homer or not? I'm definitely not wrong. There is nothing wrong with being a homer. I'm a Deron Williams homer. The issue is that it's blinding you (get the sunglasses remark now?) from realizing that he's tapped out on his potential and that we need to move forward with the franchise. We did it with the average Mek and benefitted from it. We can do the same with the average Ray.

That's hilarious! Now you want to bring other posters into the conversation!

You can think what you want...but try to have some decorum since this ISN'T ABOUT ME. I have legitimate points, but when you decide to veer into personal comments it makes you look petty.

Felton's improvement this year...as you yourself have admitted...says that "tapped out potential" is anything but a given. He's never going to be a star but he can get more efficient.

DJ has not shown any consistency.


He should have been better than a rookie DJ last year but Per36 numbers show that DJ had a higher FG%, 3PT%, FT%, PPG, and fewer turnovers. As a rookie. He was better this year mainly because DJ was dealing with all sorts of off the court issues that hampered his production. He's been better half the years that DJ has been in the league. Not "consistently".

He has a higher FG% because of the 3. You take those out and he shot worse from inside the arc and he finished at the rim even worse than Felton. His TOs were lower, but his A/T was much worse; DJ has not been a good distributor at all.

"Off the court issues"? LB & Flip? We supposed to tailor the team especially for him now because he's so sensitive?


Does this also mean you'll stop whining to Ziggy and asking him to yell at me for you? :facepalm:

I went to him first because of your moderator status. Even though I've lost all respect for you now I do respect the title Ziggy gave you.

Don't worry kid...I won't be going back to him again.

[dav7z]

What the hell is the name of the thread we're posting in? Do you see "Tyrus" anywhere in that title?



I don't know what he'll do, but with both TC & Nazr's expirings it's certainly feasible. Expirings are valuable, and with all the teams under cap and most likely staying under the cap (there's only so many big FAs) getting under the LT before the deadline is absolutely realistic.



Yeah...Gana's a good example. The dude has no offensive skills and can't stay on the court for foul trouble. A consistent rotation guy is almost always tradable, and I imagine we can move anyone on our squad except probably Gana.

There's no need to step back when you can move a contract in two years to get another PG, be it Paul or anyone else. This franchise can't afford to take a step back.



Felton got us into the playoffs. Crash got us into the playoffs. Jax got us into the playoffs. If we'd lost any of those three for the season most likely we wouldn't have gotten in.

For this past season the goal was to GET to the playoffs. Didn't you hear about the first conversation between Crash & Jax. That was the goal.

Now, you're right. But since I don't blame one guy (or give just one guy credit) I think this team can get better in the short term. Jordan pointed out that this team needs more time.



That's hilarious! Now you want to bring other posters into the conversation!

You can think what you want...but try to have some decorum since this ISN'T ABOUT ME. I have legitimate points, but when you decide to veer into personal comments it makes you look petty.

Felton's improvement this year...as you yourself have admitted...says that "tapped out potential" is anything but a given. He's never going to be a star but he can get more efficient.

DJ has not shown any consistency.



He has a higher FG% because of the 3. You take those out and he shot worse from inside the arc and he finished at the rim even worse than Felton. His TOs were lower, but his A/T was much worse; DJ has not been a good distributor at all.

"Off the court issues"? LB & Flip? We supposed to tailor the team especially for him now because he's so sensitive?



I went to him first because of your moderator status. Even though I've lost all respect for you now I do respect the title Ziggy gave you.

Don't worry kid...I won't be going back to him again.


Why can't we keep both TT and Felton . Trade expirings to inprove and get under the tax.

Im more in favor of trading DJ right now because of value, Felton has none at all to us right now. Either we sign him at a decent contract or let him walk . It is as easy as that.

I went to 38 home games last season belive me DJ is no where near ready to START.
Though he could be a nice back up.
Our best bet is packegeing him in a trade

[spectre]

Why can't we keep both TT and Felton . Trade expirings to inprove and get under the tax.

I more in favor of trading DJ right now because of value, Felton has none at all to us right now. Either we sign hin at a decent contract or let him walk . Its is as easy as that.

I went to 38 home games last season belive me DJ is no where near ready to START.
Though he could be a nice back up.
Our best bet is packegeing him in a trade

Be careful or you're going to be labeled a Felton Homer.

We can, but I don't know what the FO is planning on doing. LB possibly leaving is the first big thing; I think we're more apt to make bigger changes if he leaves. The FA situations are another...who's to say both get bigger offers than we want to match?

Going to be a long summer.

[Marvel]

Ha DJ will be a starter.He's a better player than what we have seen this season.

[SWedd523]

Ha DJ will be a starter.He's a better player than what we have seen this season.

http://morphium.org/~bursar/images/srsly.jpg

If he returns to his rookie form then you're exactly right. He can fill in admirably . Be careful though Marvel, you don't want be labelled as a DJ homer.

[110oldeast]

swedd,

When you say torched in "all 4 games," that implies in each game.

And you can try to brush off what I said about the respective first time playoffs series' situations (both were defending Eastern Conference champs with playoff tested pgs), but the point remains. Both pgs' teams were swept by better teams and were outplayed by their more playoff experienced pg counterparts.

Jameer who produced almost identical numbers to our bum this year also got better because of comfort and continued growth. Whatever the FO does, I will be fine with, but the BS scapegoating going around is a joke.

On a different note, using stats of DJ alongside Felton to justify moving Felton doesn't exactly work.

Finally, it was never accepted by me that "Jack got us to the playoffs," however I did accept that his acquisition and INCORPORATION INTO OUR TEAM was a foundation for it. Felton hit plenty of big shots, played strong defense, and did a strong job running the team this year in helping us get to the playoffs. Most of the time we beat anyone of any value, he had a significant role in that process.

Dynasty,

You're right, Felton has had way more continuity than Jameer Nelson and been in the same system/coaching situation his whole career. And you're right, the Magic team is a bunch of bums, so the analogy to defending fellow Eastern Conference Champion Pistons doesn't hold any water either.

So, b/c he had ONE bad series, he's doomed to have them for the rest of his career right? He was the only one too, right?

As to DJ, I hope he bounces back, but I also don't know that he has demonstrated being starting pg worthy yet.

[DY_nasty]

Dynasty,

You're right, Felton has had way more continuity than Jameer Nelson and been in the same system/coaching situation his whole career. And you're right, the Magic team is a bunch of bums, so the analogy to defending fellow Eastern Conference Champion Pistons doesn't hold any water either.

So, b/c he had ONE bad series, he's doomed to have them for the rest of his career right? He was the only one too, right?

As to DJ, I hope he bounces back, but I also don't know that he has demonstrated being starting pg worthy yet.
The Magic team that got slaughtered by the Pistons was a bunch of bums, and even then, Jameer Nelson was a better player than Felton. Whats your point? That team got better after years of tweaks to the roster and players on the team elevating their game to an all-star level. Lets just keep it real for a second here - if Danny Granger doesn't get hurt, Gerald Wallace watches the all-star game from Charlotte. The year that Jameer went to the all-star game, he was on a tear and was the key to Orlando's offense. They still managed to get to the finals without him, but every Orlando fan can tell you that the team under Rafer was drastically inferior to the team under Jameer. (Note: Finals Jameer should have never played, Stan was an idiot for trying to reintroduce him into the lineup like that)

ANYWAYS

One bad series is plenty for me. Especially when it shows off everything thats been wrong with a player since day one. He made stupid turnovers/mistakes. If he was a rookie still, I'd be okay with it but he's making the same stupid decisions that he made years ago. Over penetrating, not fighting through screens, untimely turnovers on easy passes, chicken-wing shot - he didn't elevate his game for the playoffs, he got worse. He's the one claiming to be a leader, taking responsibility comes with it. Whether or not he played the poorest is up for debate, but the fact that he came up the shortest given his expectations is very, very clear.

Stop coddling Ray. He got smashed, deal with it.

[SWedd523]

swedd,

When you say torched in "all 4 games," that implies in each game.

And you can try to brush off what I said about the respective first time playoffs series' situations (both were defending Eastern Conference champs with playoff tested pgs), but the point remains. Both pgs' teams were swept by better teams and were outplayed by their more playoff experienced pg counterparts.

Jameer who produced almost identical numbers to our bum this year also got better because of comfort and continued growth. Whatever the FO does, I will be fine with, but the BS scapegoating going around is a joke.

On a different note, using stats of DJ alongside Felton to justify moving Felton doesn't exactly work.

Finally, it was never accepted by me that "Jack got us to the playoffs," however I did accept that his acquisition and INCORPORATION INTO OUR TEAM was a foundation for it. Felton hit plenty of big shots, played strong defense, and did a strong job running the team this year in helping us get to the playoffs. Most of the time we beat anyone of any value, he had a significant role in that process.

Jameer was injured for every playoff series last year besides the Finals (and he shouldn't have played then). Other than that, only the year before has he played in more than one series. He may be more experienced, but not by anywhere near the same margin as Chauncey was in the Pistons/Magic series.

I'm not scapegoating JUST Felton and I never was. Jack and Doris both got their bottoms spanked just as badly.

Using DJ's stats alongside Ray work in that he's shown that he can, at least, fill in for Ray. He would be a defensive drop off, but an offensive improvement. However much the two balance out depends on his mindset next year.


I'm not discounting the contributions Ray made to the team. However it can't be ignored that we had a .250 winning % before Jack and a .586 % after he arrived. That trade made the difference in our season. There's no way around that.

[110oldeast]

6 TOs in the entire series. 1.5 per game. 3.3 a/t ratio. Just over 2 TOs per game during the season.

Can you please tell me about all these dumb TOs?

Not fighting through screens? You realize that if one guy has to fight through, the other has to show. Otherwise, you go under or switch. Besides, that being a longtime issue with him is news to me. Again, these issues seemed to be greatly eliminated when TT or TC showed, but again that's all coincidence.

I'm not coddling anything. I said before I would have rather him be aggressive than to continue deferring to a guy who shot 29% in the games we could have won while turning it over the most as well. I said that he should have been more aggressive attacking the basket and making plays.

The TEAM got swept, competed closely in 3 of 4 games against a big mismatch and did so with their top scorer being way below par and all the words are about Felton?

Again, break away from the script. Felton certainly could have played better, but the fall guy stuff is overdone. So is saying he has not improved this year and that he made all these "untimely, stupid turnovers."

Again, that's my issue with this. It's clear many folks have been ready for him to be gone and had their reasons for it and are throwing them out whether they applied or not.



The Magic team that got slaughtered by the Pistons was a bunch of bums, and even then, Jameer Nelson was a better player than Felton. Whats your point? That team got better after years of tweaks to the roster and players on the team elevating their game to an all-star level. Lets just keep it real for a second here - if Danny Granger doesn't get hurt, Gerald Wallace watches the all-star game from Charlotte. The year that Jameer went to the all-star game, he was on a tear and was the key to Orlando's offense. They still managed to get to the finals without him, but every Orlando fan can tell you that the team under Rafer was drastically inferior to the team under Jameer. (Note: Finals Jameer should have never played, Stan was an idiot for trying to reintroduce him into the lineup like that)

ANYWAYS

One bad series is plenty for me. Especially when it shows off everything thats been wrong with a player since day one. He made stupid turnovers/mistakes. If he was a rookie still, I'd be okay with it but he's making the same stupid decisions that he made years ago. Over penetrating, not fighting through screens, untimely turnovers on easy passes, chicken-wing shot - he didn't elevate his game for the playoffs, he got worse. He's the one claiming to be a leader, taking responsibility comes with it. Whether or not he played the poorest is up for debate, but the fact that he came up the shortest given his expectations is very, very clear.

Stop coddling Ray. He got smashed, deal with it.

[110oldeast]

I was talking about total playoff experience in Jameer's situation (I was aware that he was out last year for much of the playoffs) and saying that we got swept by a team that was defending Eastern Conference champs and a clearly better team in the same way Detroit was clearly better. I wasn't saying he had played the exact same amount of games that Chauncey had. I was simply saying that some of this is a rash reaction and that Orlando could have had the same reaction then, but didn't.

I don't know that the margin was really that far apart in that series. Jameer did the "get my numbers in a blowout" in Game 2, scoring half his points in that game and got housed every game giving up high shooting numbers while Chauncey made plays in all 4 games.


Jameer was injured for every playoff series last year besides the Finals (and he shouldn't have played then). Other than that, only the year before has he played in more than one series. He may be more experienced, but not by anywhere near the same margin as Chauncey was in the Pistons/Magic series.

I'm not scapegoating JUST Felton and I never was. Jack and Doris both got their bottoms spanked just as badly.

Using DJ's stats alongside Ray work in that he's shown that he can, at least, fill in for Ray. He would be a defensive drop off, but an offensive improvement. However much the two balance out depends on his mindset next year.


I'm not discounting the contributions Ray made to the team. However it can't be ignored that we had a .250 winning % before Jack and a .586 % after he arrived. That trade made the difference in our season. There's no way around that.

[DY_nasty]

6 TOs in the entire series. 1.5 per game. 3.3 a/t ratio. Just over 2 TOs per game during the season.

Can you please tell me about all these dumb TOs?

Not fighting through screens? You realize that if one guy has to fight through, the other has to show. Otherwise, you go under or switch. Besides, that being a longtime issue with him is news to me. Again, these issues seemed to be greatly eliminated when TT or TC showed, but again that's all coincidence.

I'm not coddling anything. I said before I would have rather him be aggressive than to continue deferring to a guy who shot 29% in the games we could have won while turning it over the most as well. I said that he should have been more aggressive attacking the basket and making plays.

The TEAM got swept, competed closely in 3 of 4 games against a big mismatch and did so with their top scorer being way below par and all the words are about Felton?

Again, break away from the script. Felton certainly could have played better, but the fall guy stuff is overdone. So is saying he has not improved this year and that he made all these "untimely, stupid turnovers."

Again, that's my issue with this. It's clear many folks have been ready for him to be gone and had their reasons for it and are throwing them out whether they applied or not.
1) A dumb pass is one that can lead to a turnover for someone else. Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible.
2) You fight through screen on shooters. Always. Is Orlando a team that likes to shoot the 3? JAX fought through screens, Wallace did too. What did Ray do? Not move his feet even when picks didn't come. If he's getting beat that bad, he needs to communicate better. This is simple stuff.
3) Jackson held Orlando's most explosive scorer for almost the entire series. Also, he was one of the only two guys being guarded on the Bobcats. Ray wasn't even being guarded on the perimeter for the entire series. Stan said so himself. What is Ray's excuse? Complete lack of respect shown for everyone on the team outside of Wallace and Jackson, and guess what? Everyone was apparently cool with it. (Except Tyrus... at least he did what he could)
4) The team got swept. Yeah, but what happens when teams get swept? Fingers get pointed. Sweeps happen because of major flaws in teams, whats ours?

[110oldeast]

I appreciate the generic discussion in dumb passes.

Fighting on the wing and fighting on the ball screens are 2 different things. Vince exploited Jack in game 4 with a lot of on ball screens. Furthermore, he missed plenty of wide open looks throughout the series.

Part of folks doubling of Jack is his unwillingness to make quick and consistent kickouts. It's not simply a matter of other players not being good. He would prefer to either: a) Shoot his way out of the double team or b) make a spectacular pass that shows off his passing creativity; and almost only will make a pass if it directly can lead to an individual assist, but not one that will keep the offense moving or make the pass that leads to the pass.

Our team has flaws, but I also know that the only 2 times we legitimately were in position to beat Orlando in regulation, an offensively assertive Felton was a part of it. I again don't see him as the weight around the team's throat that he is being made out to be.

As much as folks don't want to hear it, he led the team in 3 pt shooting for the bulk of the year, so for him to be a horrible shooter really says something about the other 3 pt shooting on our team.

I just think that folks have had their mind made up about him and this series has provided an excuse for folks to come out say it, as there was no room to during the season.

1) A dumb pass is one that can lead to a turnover for someone else. Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible.
2) You fight through screen on shooters. Always. Is Orlando a team that likes to shoot the 3? JAX fought through screens, Wallace did too. What did Ray do? Not move his feet even when picks didn't come. If he's getting beat that bad, he needs to communicate better. This is simple stuff.
3) Jackson held Orlando's most explosive scorer for almost the entire series. Also, he was one of the only two guys being guarded on the Bobcats. Ray wasn't even being guarded on the perimeter for the entire series. Stan said so himself. What is Ray's excuse? Complete lack of respect shown for everyone on the team outside of Wallace and Jackson, and guess what? Everyone was apparently cool with it. (Except Tyrus... at least he did what he could)
4) The team got swept. Yeah, but what happens when teams get swept? Fingers get pointed. Sweeps happen because of major flaws in teams, whats ours?

[DY_nasty]

I appreciate the generic discussion in dumb passes.

Fighting on the wing and fighting on the ball screens are 2 different things. Vince exploited Jack in game 4 with a lot of on ball screens. Furthermore, he missed plenty of wide open looks throughout the series.

Part of folks doubling of Jack is his unwillingness to make quick and consistent kickouts. It's not simply a matter of other players not being good. He would prefer to either: a) Shoot his way out of the double team or b) make a spectacular pass that shows off his passing creativity; and almost only will make a pass if it directly can lead to an individual assist, but not one that will keep the offense moving or make the pass that leads to the pass.

Our team has flaws, but I also know that the only 2 times we legitimately were in position to beat Orlando in regulation, an offensively assertive Felton was a part of it. I again don't see him as the weight around the team's throat that he is being made out to be.

I just think that folks have had their mind made up about him and this series has provided an excuse for folks to come out say it, as there was no room to during the season.
Don't be mad be just because I summed up what a dumb passer is for you.

LOL Felton was the one who had us close in game 1 huh? That was all him who got us into that game, Not Jackson huh? I don't even know what other game you're talking about... The other games weren't even close because no one remembered to attack the basket when Dwight leaves the floor. Thats on Larry though.

And call me spoiled, but I'd rather see Jackson jack up a shot from the elbow over Barnes after our crappy offense moves the ball around meaninglessly for 10 seconds instead of seeing Ray throw up that crooked chicken-wing mess of his. Again, for the 3rd time, Ray didn't get nearly the same kind of defensive attention as Wallace and Jack. Of course his shooting percentages would be better. But geez, demand some respect Ray - not just when we're down big and the other team lets off the gas.

And yes, fighting on the wing and on ball screens are two different things - felton did neither, ever, and he saw plenty of both. Jackson keeps Vince on hush mode for 3 out of 4 games, then I call that a successful defensive showing in the playoffs. A guy like Vince was bound to get his eventually.

So yes, blame Jackson for not being the messiah and don't blame Felton for being a bum. :facepalm:

[110oldeast]

Actually, I was speaking to the only 2 times in 12 games against the Magic that we won or were in position to win. And you didn't break a thing down for me. I was simply pointing out how you made a generic statement and then when I showed the hole in what you said, lacked specifics. I was not making a point about the playoff games then.

However, as to your point about Game 1, in the 2nd half, I would say Felton's 14 pts in the 2nd half on 60% shooting was quite significant in us getting back in the game. Of course, no one paid any attention to that as Nelson's 1st half established the verdict on that game. Jack (6-18, 5 TOs) was significant in helping us hang around and get it to 10 and Felton (7-14, 2 TOs) was significant in helping us get it down to 4.

In game 3, Felton had 13 and 6 and had back to back buckets, including the shot that fouled Howard out to get us to within 1 before we ran the play for a wide open look for Jack that he was not close on.

Again, this was not a case of "not messiah" and "bum" as much as it was "below expectations/need" and "below expectations/need."

And please, nobody has been trumpeting Vince for them as all year teams have talked about how much they'll miss Hedo b/c Vince doesn't have "it." This ain't exactly Air Canada.

Finally Jackson is a bad shotmaker. It's his blessing and his curse. He dribbles out of wide open shots into contested shots. He takes bad shots not because he has to, as much as because he prefers to. How many times does he take a wide open shot, wait for someone to contest, and then dribble and shoot? He did it all series. It's a large part of why he seemed so uncomfortable when LB set up that wide open lead changing 3 pt catch and shoot opportunity for him.




Don't be mad be just because I summed up what a dumb passer is for you.

LOL Felton was the one who had us close in game 1 huh? That was all him who got us into that game, Not Jackson huh? I don't even know what other game you're talking about... The other games weren't even close because no one remembered to attack the basket when Dwight leaves the floor. Thats on Larry though.

And call me spoiled, but I'd rather see Jackson jack up a shot from the elbow over Barnes after our crappy offense moves the ball around meaninglessly for 10 seconds instead of seeing Ray throw up that crooked chicken-wing mess of his. Again, for the 3rd time, Ray didn't get nearly the same kind of defensive attention as Wallace and Jack. Of course his shooting percentages would be better. But geez, demand some respect Ray - not just when we're down big and the other team lets off the gas.

And yes, fighting on the wing and on ball screens are two different things - felton did neither, ever, and he saw plenty of both. Jackson keeps Vince on hush mode for 3 out of 4 games, then I call that a successful defensive showing in the playoffs. A guy like Vince was bound to get his eventually.

So yes, blame Jackson for not being the messiah and don't blame Felton for being a bum. :facepalm:

[DY_nasty]

Actually, I was speaking to the only 2 times in 12 games against the Magic that we won or were in position to win. And you didn't break a thing down for me. I was simply pointing out how you made a generic statement and then when I showed the hole in what you said, lacked specifics. I was not making a point about the playoff games then.

However, as to your point about Game 1, in the 2nd half, I would say Felton's 14 pts in the 2nd half on 60% shooting was quite significant in us getting back in the game. Of course, no one paid any attention to that as Nelson's 1st half established the verdict on that game. Jack (6-18, 5 TOs) was significant in helping us hang around and get it to 10 and Felton (7-14, 2 TOs) was significant in helping us get it down to 4.

In game 3, Felton had 13 and 6 and had back to back buckets, including the shot that fouled Howard out to get us to within 1 before we ran the play for a wide open look for Jack that he was not close on.

Again, this was not a case of "not messiah" and "bum" as much as it was "below expectations/need" and "below expectations/need."

And please, nobody has been trumpeting Vince for them as all year teams have talked about how much they'll miss Hedo b/c Vince doesn't have "it." This ain't exactly Air Canada.

Finally Jackson is a bad shotmaker. It's his blessing and his curse. He dribbles out of wide open shots into contested shots. He takes bad shots not because he has to, as much as because he prefers to. How many times does he take a wide open shot, wait for someone to contest, and then dribble and shoot? He did it all series. It's a large part of why he seemed so uncomfortable when LB set up that wide open lead changing 3 pt catch and shoot opportunity for him.
What hole? Dumb passers are all over the league. Raymond Felton is one of them. Assist numbers are one the most overblown stats in the league right next to steals. They don't accurately judge how good of a passer a player is. Is Ginobli in the top 10 in assists? No, he's actually averaging few assists per game than Felton. But would you really say that Raymond is a better passer than Manu and risk being called an idiot?

All I remember in Game 3 is getting smacked again. 13 points when opposing coaches tell you to your face that they aren't even going to bother with guarding you is nothing. Nothing. Its embarrassment at the highest level when you are seen as the #3 guy on a team and yet scouts and coaches the league over don't even deem you worthy of constant respect at the perimeter.

I said that Vince is Orlando's most explosive scorer. He is. I never said that he was the most consistent. When Vince goes off, Orlando wins. Its that simple, he didn't even get in a rhythm until game 4. Good job Stephen Jackson, way to contribute consistently through the series even though you're getting more attention from Orlando's defense than anyone else.

Jackson... I never liked. He's the long lost brother of Spreewell. A volume scorer thats quickly becoming obsolete in the NBA. What you're talking about his incredibly slow release when he's pretty much set shooting. It is who he is. Who he is got us to the playoffs. Who he is almost won game 1 for us, and probably would've had he not been injured. Ray... I like him. I defended him plenty of times, but he's not the right fit for this team. Clearly.

[DY_nasty]

Here's something fun for you numbers guys...

Chauncey Billups
Chris Duhon
Raymond Felton

What do they all have in common?

[110oldeast]

Your original post talked about all the dumb TOs and now you have conveniently moved things to dumb passer. You speak in subjectives and state them as absolutes when you don't have anything objective to back them up.

Assist numbers are often a function of how much one handles the ball and how many jump shooters (where most assists happen) there are on a team in conjunction with playmaking abilities.

In the end, neither of us are going to change each other's minds.

And Orlando wins even when Vince doesn't go off, because they are extremely balanced. They are the ultimate pick your poison team. Orlando from the jump saw that we were hung up Dwight and exploited it.

If we were playing Atlanta and team with 3 pt shooting like ours on the wings, allowing us to play our brand of defense, we would likely be playing tomorrow in a Game 7.

They are a bad matchup for us, however we spin it.


What hole? Dumb passers are all over the league. Raymond Felton is one of them. Assist numbers are one the most overblown stats in the league right next to steals. They don't accurately judge how good of a passer a player is. Is Ginobli in the top 10 in assists? No, he's actually averaging few assists per game than Felton. But would you really say that Raymond is a better passer than Manu and risk being called an idiot?

All I remember in Game 3 is getting smacked again. 13 points when opposing coaches tell you to your face that they aren't even going to bother with guarding you is nothing. Nothing. Its embarrassment at the highest level when you are seen as the #3 guy on a team and yet scouts and coaches the league over don't even deem you worthy of constant respect at the perimeter.

I said that Vince is Orlando's most explosive scorer. He is. I never said that he was the most consistent. When Vince goes off, Orlando wins. Its that simple, he didn't even get in a rhythm until game 4. Good job Stephen Jackson, way to contribute consistently through the series even though you're getting more attention from Orlando's defense than anyone else.

Jackson... I never liked. He's the long lost brother of Spreewell. A volume scorer thats quickly becoming obsolete in the NBA. What you're talking about his incredibly slow release when he's pretty much set shooting. It is who he is. Who he is got us to the playoffs. Who he is almost won game 1 for us, and probably would've had he not been injured. Ray... I like him. I defended him plenty of times, but he's not the right fit for this team. Clearly.

[DY_nasty]

Your original post talked about all the dumb TOs and now you have conveniently moved things to dumb passer. You speak in subjectives and state them as absolutes when you don't have anything objective to back them up.

Assist numbers are often a function of how much one handles the ball and how many jump shooters (where most assists happen) there are on a team in conjunction with playmaking abilities.

In the end, neither of us are going to change each other's minds.

And Orlando wins even when Vince doesn't go off, because they are extremely balanced. They are the ultimate pick your poison team. Orlando from the jump saw that we were hung up Dwight and exploited it.

If we were playing Atlanta and team with 3 pt shooting like ours on the wings, allowing us to play our brand of defense, we would likely be playing tomorrow in a Game 7.

They are a bad matchup for us, however we spin it.
Dumb passers make dumb turnovers. You're grasping at nothing now. Nothing is subjective about it. You can argue numbers all day, but when those numbers stop supporting your argument you can't just conveniently disregard them. Something like an opposing coach openly saying that a guy isn't worth guarding means a lot more than a weak 13 & 6 in a beatdown. You still haven't addressed that either by the way.

And thats what I mean by coddling too. He was just dealt the biggest insult that a basketball player can endure, getting abused and being seen as nothing more than a practice cone by opposing coaches and scouts. It is what it is, Felton is THE guy to catch heat. When he was 'the leader' before Stephen Jackson showed up, the team was 3-9. Now that Jackson was here and we were winning, Felton still threw around all that 'i'm the leader' talk during interviews. Well now his mouth has wrote a check that his play just can't cash. Its not even about changing minds, Felton screwed up bad. And now its just a matter how much people like him, and who those people are.

If Vince goes on a scoring tear, odds are that Orlando will win with ease. Thats the point I was making. Atlanta is broken team too... thats got nothing to do with anything and this thread is thoroughly derailed anyways.

[110oldeast]

Whatever man. You said he was making a bunch of stupid TOs. I said he had 6 for the series and asked you about the dumb TOs and you went into a generic conversation. You dodged things, not me.

Please give me your "Felton is not worth guarding" quote from Stan or any Orlando coach.

And the 13 and 6 wasn't in a beatdown. It was in a game where we were down 1 with about a minute to go and the bum had made back to back drives to the basket to get the score there. It's the game where it was followed by a WIDE OPEN 3 from the guy you said always had to shoot with 2 or 3 guys on him. It was a shot that never had a chance and it was a shot where I heard other Bobcats' fans characterize it as a dumb decision by Felton when the coach called a TO and diagrammed that play. It was a game where the guy you say simply "failed to be the messiah" also was 6-18 and 1-7. There was also 13 from Crash and 14 from Hughes when one of the writers said all we needed was someone else to provide 12.

I guess all 7 of those 3s were 3s where he was doubled too, right? I mean besides the one that was diagrammed for him when we were down 1 pt with less than a minute to go.


Dumb passers make dumb turnovers. You're grasping at nothing now. Nothing is subjective about it. You can argue numbers all day, but when those numbers stop supporting your argument you can't just conveniently disregard them. Something like an opposing coach openly saying that a guy isn't worth guarding means a lot more than a weak 13 & 6 in a beatdown. You still haven't addressed that either by the way.

And thats what I mean by coddling too. He was just dealt the biggest insult that a basketball player can endure, getting abused and being seen as nothing more than a practice cone by opposing coaches and scouts. It is what it is, Felton is THE guy to catch heat. When he was 'the leader' before Stephen Jackson showed up, the team was 3-9. Now that Jackson was here and we were winning, Felton still threw around all that 'i'm the leader' talk during interviews. Well now his mouth has wrote a check that his play just can't cash. Its not even about changing minds, Felton screwed up bad. And now its just a matter how much people like him, and who those people are.

If Vince goes on a scoring tear, odds are that Orlando will win with ease. Thats the point I was making. Atlanta is broken team too... thats got nothing to do with anything and this thread is thoroughly derailed anyways.

[DY_nasty]

Whatever man. You said he was making a bunch of stupid TOs. I said he had 6 for the series and asked you about the dumb TOs and you went into a generic conversation. You dodged things, not me. I spelled it out in one of my earlier posts. If you don't want to read, thats on you.


1) A dumb pass is one that can lead to a turnover for someone else. Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible. Poor spacing, bad reads, late or off target passes, etc. These things all come into play when talking about passing and the continuity of the offense, but we don't know what offense is here. We've become accustomed to mediocrity and have accepted it as inevitable fate. Felton is dumb with the ball more times than not, just like he's screwed the team late as many times as he's saved it in the clutch. He's the very definition of mediocrity in point guard form.


Please give me your "Felton is not worth guarding" quote from Stan or any Orlando coach.

And the 13 and 6 wasn't in a beatdown. It was in a game where we were down 1 with about a minute to go and the bum had made back to back drives to the basket to get the score there. It's the game where it was followed by a WIDE OPEN 3 from the guy you said always had to shoot with 2 or 3 guys on him. It was a shot that never had a chance and it was a shot where I heard other Bobcats' fans characterize it as a dumb decision by Felton when the coach called a TO and diagrammed that play. It was a game where the guy you say simply "failed to be the messiah" also was 6-18 and 1-7. There was also 13 from Crash and 14 from Hughes when one of the writers said all we needed was someone else to provide 12.

I guess all 7 of those 3s were 3s where he was doubled too, right? I mean besides the one that was diagrammed for him when we were down 1 pt with less than a minute to go.

Did I ever say that he was doubled? No, I said that he and Crash were the only players on the team that were apparently worth gameplanning against. Ray was left free to roam while they stacked the paint for the entire series. Also, the very next game Stephen Jackson shot 50% on a bum leg when no one else on the team showed up, not even invincible leader ray ray. Bottom line is that when Jack plays bad, he's still more of a help to this team even when Ray is playing slightly above average. They're not the same caliber of player. What applies to one doesn't apply to the other.

And did you not see Doc Rivers say last year that the Bobcats are beatable by simply playing a zone? That many scouts across the league laid the Bobcats success or failure in the playoffs square in front of Doris and Failton? And if you missed that, then certainly you saw the news sources tell that Stan let the team take Monday off after playing the Bobcats? and maybe days after the realgm headlines that said that Stan is only concerned with stopping Jackson and Wallace? Google homie.

The bobcats being a team loaded with mediocre/below average players isn't some shattering revelation, its been common knowledge for the last two years.

Clearly you don't understand the whole 'failed to be a messiah' metaphor either. You can't blame Jackson for NOT single handedly saving this offensively handicapped team. When that run happened in Game 1, it was Jackson that was setting people up and making things happen. Felton was just along for the ride. As soon as Jack went out, what happened? Whatever we were going on to get back to the top mysteriously vanished! All of a sudden, that run wasn't quite as intense was it? Everyone who wanted the underdog to win was wondering why he couldn't get back into the game - not 'we need Felton!'.

And just to see if you're really crazy or not, are you saying that Felton's 1.5 turnovers per game truly reflect how efficient he was with the ball? Honestly man, there are times when stats are helpful and there are times when they just cloud the obvious. This magical 13/6 performance is supposed to hide his 4 point performance? That wonderful evening is supposed to make his 0/4 behind the 3 point line disappear? His two steals in four games? What standards do you hold Felton too?

I held him to those of a starting point guard of a playoff team, clearly thats too high of a bar for him.

Look, I couldn't care less about Felton's situation with the Bobcats and I'd defend him all the time too. I used to like him as the point guard for this team, but after the season as a whole and the series with Orlando, I'd rather gamble on DJ than see more of the same from Felton, especially at his asking price.

[110oldeast]

Thanks for regurgitating a bunch of Observer write-ups and putting it as universal truths. Again, as I said, you are going by the script. Rick put one thing out by one scout that mentioned Boris and Ray before the series and have extracted it to multiple scouts around the league. It's funny how we beat PLENTY of good teams this season and many of those were in games where Felton played well, making this whole notion bogus. But since you are using so many scripts from the Observer, why don't go to the article about the team just needing a dozen points from someone else to get them over the hump b/c the dynamic duo in Wallace and Jackson could hanldle the rest? B/C in games 1, 3, and 4, we had multiple players (Felton--Gm 1 & 3, Hughes--Gm 3, Thomas--Gm4, and Diaw--Gm 4) do this only for our Batman in Jackson to not get what was expected from him. If we are go by the script, let's break down how the script was wrong on that hypothesis.

When Stephen Jackson went out of Game 1, we went from down 9 or so to down 4 after a quick 5 points from Felton, so it's not like things just stopped. So again, this "along for the ride" (how are 14 pts in the half, 10 in the quarter, just being along for the ride?) notion you wrote is again bogus and incorrect. I REALLY wanted Jack back in the game too, as an assertive Felton playing with him and Wallace is the formula that worked for the Bobcats when they played anyone worth a crap. I wanted him in as them all being assertive would be tougher to guard. You see, on my end, it's not an either/or proposition. I believe in middle ground.

And it's awesome that Jack put up a bunch of points when we were getting blown out. My only question Where was that 50% shooting in the rest of the series when the games were more competitive? 6-18, 6-18, 2-11. I would give more props for the Game 2 performance if there was ANYTHING close to resembling that any of the games. And you really want to bring up Felton's 0-4 from 3 in that game when Jack was 1-7 from 3 in that game, badly missing a wide open set up to take the lead after the "half-clutch bum" hit 5 quick pts to get us within 1 and foul out Howard, 13 during the 3 games we could win? You might want to see more of that than above average play from Felton but that only exposes your bias, not any type of special basketbal acumen. Because it certainly doesn't help the team more. This team was at its best when the pgs assertively ran the offense and allowed Jack to be a SECONDARY ballhandler/playmaker and PRIMARY play completer scorer, NOT primary scorer and playmaker. We lost as much as we won when we went into pure Jack mode and while some folks won't say it now, people complained about this. I blamed the pgs, as much as Jack for that as he is a secondary playmaker, not a primary one. Again, I blame Felton for continually deferring to Jackson as he needed to take a more assertive role in running the team, not putting it in Jack's hands so much.

Finally, if you say you're just holding Felton to the standards of a starting pg of a playoff team, are you holding Jack to the standards of a leading scorer, best player? Nobdoy asked him to be a messiah in any of the 3 games I mentioned, unless shooting above 30% is considered being a messiah.

Again, I am NOT even close to being satisfied with Felton's performance and actually had a post earlier in the series that driectly took to task his being passive. My thing is that I don't think things have to be as extreme as this sports talk radio climate does now. Felton, Wallace, and Jackson were significant in us getting to the dance. Playing against one of the best defensive teams in the league, none were at the level they had been all year. I just think a disproportionate amount of it is being thrown Felton's way.



I spelled it out in one of my earlier posts. If you don't want to read, thats on you.

Though it may not be credited to the initial passer, he is responsible. Poor spacing, bad reads, late or off target passes, etc. These things all come into play when talking about passing and the continuity of the offense, but we don't know what offense is here. We've become accustomed to mediocrity and have accepted it as inevitable fate. Felton is dumb with the ball more times than not, just like he's screwed the team late as many times as he's saved it in the clutch. He's the very definition of mediocrity in point guard form.



Did I ever say that he was doubled? No, I said that he and Crash were the only players on the team that were apparently worth gameplanning against. Ray was left free to roam while they stacked the paint for the entire series. Also, the very next game Stephen Jackson shot 50% on a bum leg when no one else on the team showed up, not even invincible leader ray ray. Bottom line is that when Jack plays bad, he's still more of a help to this team even when Ray is playing slightly above average. They're not the same caliber of player. What applies to one doesn't apply to the other.

And did you not see Doc Rivers say last year that the Bobcats are beatable by simply playing a zone? That many scouts across the league laid the Bobcats success or failure in the playoffs square in front of Doris and Failton? And if you missed that, then certainly you saw the news sources tell that Stan let the team take Monday off after playing the Bobcats? and maybe days after the realgm headlines that said that Stan is only concerned with stopping Jackson and Wallace? Google homie.

The bobcats being a team loaded with mediocre/below average players isn't some shattering revelation, its been common knowledge for the last two years.

Clearly you don't understand the whole 'failed to be a messiah' metaphor either. You can't blame Jackson for NOT single handedly saving this offensively handicapped team. When that run happened in Game 1, it was Jackson that was setting people up and making things happen. Felton was just along for the ride. As soon as Jack went out, what happened? Whatever we were going on to get back to the top mysteriously vanished! All of a sudden, that run wasn't quite as intense was it? Everyone who wanted the underdog to win was wondering why he couldn't get back into the game - not 'we need Felton!'.

And just to see if you're really crazy or not, are you saying that Felton's 1.5 turnovers per game truly reflect how efficient he was with the ball? Honestly man, there are times when stats are helpful and there are times when they just cloud the obvious. This magical 13/6 performance is supposed to hide his 4 point performance? That wonderful evening is supposed to make his 0/4 behind the 3 point line disappear? His two steals in four games? What standards do you hold Felton too?

I held him to those of a starting point guard of a playoff team, clearly thats too high of a bar for him.

Look, I couldn't care less about Felton's situation with the Bobcats and I'd defend him all the time too. I used to like him as the point guard for this team, but after the season as a whole and the series with Orlando, I'd rather gamble on DJ than see more of the same from Felton, especially at his asking price.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I know this is a thread about DJ, so I apologize for going off topic, but I think this is a little unfair. Boris definitely struggled to find his role earlier in the year after we traded for Jackson and didn't play well for a stretch, but after the all-star break, he was pretty solid. He hit double figures in 29 of the last 35 games and had some pretty stellar performances. Even flirted with a triple-double on several occasions. I thought he was key to our ability to attack zone defenses with his passing ability. Yeah there were times when we probably needed him to be more assertive offensively, but to say he "consistently" hurt us just isn't true, especially the second half of the year.

I'd be the first to say I'd like to see TT get more of the minutes at PF, maybe even start, but Boris is a talented player who helped us this year and will help us next year too if he's here.I agree that Boris played well for a time but let's face it DJ is getting heat for not playing well for the SEASON. Boris is no different. I don't know if Boris suffers some mental lapses or what but he is not consistent enough. Neither is DJ but DJ is much younger and is still learning. During the early regular season and playoffs Boris reminded me of Emeka. He seemed to be nonchalantly going down the quart and not motivated. I will give him a pass on that however because in the playoffs most of our whole team seemed to be out of it. Orlando deserves some credit for that. They have a great defense and our Bobcats lack offensive fire power.

At the end of the day I think Boris is the most replaceable on our team. I like Boris okay but if we are going to throw anyone under the bus I feel he is the guy suited for that. Boris is a better offensive threat than what he gave us. DJ had a sophomore slump and it happens to a lot of players. I just think we need another PF with some post moves. Our Bobcats have needed that for a long time. Either that or we need some sharp shooters.

[KT#20]

Not against trading Felton, but letting him walk would solve nothing. Keep Augustin and Felton together, and hope that you'll get the best of both. Had '09 Augustin shown up at all this season, we wouldn't have played the Magic and would have had a very legitimate shot of getting out of the first round.

[DY_nasty]

If you think that we could've won Game 1 without Stephen Jackson coming back into the game, you're an idiot. Its just that simple.

If Kobe shoots 20%, you don't demand that he gets shipped out. If Bosh goes without a rebound until the 3rd, you don't say that Amir Johnson is a better player. If Joe Johnson goes down, you don't say that Atlanta is a better team without him. If the Rockets scrap and make it to the 2nd round, you don't automatically assume that they're a better team without Yao. Some guys earn their paychecks just by stepping on to the court, and this season, Stephen Jackson has been that guy for us every single night.

He's not here and we're fishing in the lottery again, not to mention unanimously lol'ing at the idea that Felton is worth keeping around. Now that Jack comes in and makes life easier for all, you're really going to go after him because of just one dimension of his game?

... you guys might be lost. After watching crappy basketball for so long, you think that career role players should get the same treatment as top 10 players of their position.

[110oldeast]

I guess I'm not an idiot then, b/c am not taking Jack out of the equation and stated very clearly that I wanted Jack back in the game. Conversely, if you think that Felton had no role in us getting the lead down to 4 and us being in the game....

The point I have REPEATEDLY made that you refuse to digest is that I wanted the combination of the assertive Felton who was playing in the 2nd half with Jackson on the floor. That combination along with Gerald Wallace (to a lesser extent Boris and Nazr when healthy) were consistently a part of the team's success. Your points are so polarized that you refuse to move anywhere away from the extremes. I have not made either/or propositions and yet you twist people's words around because you only demonstrate 2 speeds, 0 and 120.

No one is talking about who is a better player or any other crap, but you keep conveniently shifting the discourse when you can't retort what's being said.

The only point made was that there were many reasons why this team got swept when it played and that making rash decisions does not make sense. Similarly, there many reasons why it got the playoffs.

This team came out the block struggling due to having 3 unhealthy starters and it turned around in large part to 2 of them being replaced by healthier and much more productive players when Jack came in for Raja and Nazr came in for Tyson Chandler, while he was hurt. They had just missed the playoffs the year before and quite possibly would have if Raja didn't get hurt at the end of that season.

You sir are the only one talking about shipping folks out b/w the 2 of us, so again, save that strawman for someone else.



If you think that we could've won Game 1 without Stephen Jackson coming back into the game, you're an idiot. Its just that simple.

If Kobe shoots 20%, you don't demand that he gets shipped out. If Bosh goes without a rebound until the 3rd, you don't say that Amir Johnson is a better player. If Joe Johnson goes down, you don't say that Atlanta is a better team without him. If the Rockets scrap and make it to the 2nd round, you don't automatically assume that they're a better team without Yao. Some guys earn their paychecks just by stepping on to the court, and this season, Stephen Jackson has been that guy for us every single night.

He's not here and we're fishing in the lottery again, not to mention unanimously lol'ing at the idea that Felton is worth keeping around. Now that Jack comes in and makes life easier for all, you're really going to go after him because of just one dimension of his game?

... you guys might be lost. After watching crappy basketball for so long, you think that career role players should get the same treatment as top 10 players of their position.

[DY_nasty]

Where did you say that you wanted Jackson back in the game in this thread? All I saw was more Felton jock-riding and more shots at Jackson's field goal percentage.

Felton had a role alright. He was Jameer Nelson's toilet paper.

But whatever, start another thread for Raymond Felton's White Knight Club. An assertive Raymond Felton is the equivalent to an assertive <random insignificant role player>. He's gone anyways, I just don't understand why people make excuses for the guy for 5 years when all he's shown is that a)He'll never be that good here OR b)he's destined to be Andre Miller Lite for his entire career. Dude still has no clue how to get to the line and he can't shoot for crap, what is he good for?

Just start another thread. I much preferred the rumors of DJ's homework getting in the way of practice.

[Marvel]

If he returns to his rookie form then you're exactly right. He can fill in admirably . Be careful though Marvel, you don't want be labelled as a DJ homer.

So be it.I know this kid can play as a starter in this league and he has got some serious potential.I definitely see some Jameer in him-edit: (posted after i read the OrlandoJuice thread.Don't worry about Teej he wouldn't know a good player if one came up to him and slapped him in the face),with a slightly better passing game.He just has to get stronger.

[teej]

Don't worry about Teej he wouldn't know a good player if he came up to him and slapped him in the face

Love you, too, Marvel. :rolleyes:

[110oldeast]

What you saw was your issue. I wrote clearly that I wanted Jack back in the game along with an assertive Felton. You missed it and continued to talk in attacking generics. I don't deal in polarized black and white thinking. I can see the good and bad in both players and their performance and will speak on both and how it impacted games and the series. The same goes for the rest of the players and the coaching staff. Trite script regurgitation and scapegoating is not my cup of tea.


Where did you say that you wanted Jackson back in the game in this thread? All I saw was more Felton jock-riding and more shots at Jackson's field goal percentage.

Felton had a role alright. He was Jameer Nelson's toilet paper.

But whatever, start another thread for Raymond Felton's White Knight Club. An assertive Raymond Felton is the equivalent to an assertive <random insignificant role player>. He's gone anyways, I just don't understand why people make excuses for the guy for 5 years when all he's shown is that a)He'll never be that good here OR b)he's destined to be Andre Miller Lite for his entire career. Dude still has no clue how to get to the line and he can't shoot for crap, what is he good for?

Just start another thread. I much preferred the rumors of DJ's homework getting in the way of practice.

[DY_nasty]

What you saw was your issue. I wrote clearly that I wanted Jack back in the game along with an assertive Felton. You missed it and continued to talk in attacking generics. I don't deal in polarized black and white thinking. I can see the good and bad in both players and their performance and will speak on both and how it impacted games and the series. The same goes for the rest of the players and the coaching staff. Trite script regurgitation and scapegoating is not my cup of tea.
Felton sucks. Deal with it.

Moving on...

[Marvel]

Love you, too, Marvel. :rolleyes:

Ew that's disgusting.Swedd won't be happy and slightly jealous you said that.