Larry Brown's PGs through the years...

[BobcatsAllDay]

I wanted to look back at the stats of LB PGs over the years and see if he ever gave any of his PGs the freedom to score the basketball. I think DJ's ability to shoot the ball was lost in our offense and Ray's ability to attack the basket could have been used a lot more this season. With that said let's look at the numbers;

Spurs
88-89 Johnny Dawkins: 14pts, 7ast, 3reb (32 games played, 21-61 record)
89-90 Rod Strickland: 14pts, 8ast, 4reb (31 games played, 56-26 record)
89-90 Mo Cheeks: 10pts, 6ast, 3reb (50 games played, 56-26 record)
90-91 Rod Strickland: 13pts, 8ast, 4reb (56 games played, 55-27 record)
91-92 Rod Strickland: 13pts, 8ast, 4reb (57 games played, 47-35 record)
*Larry only coached 38 games this season

Pacers
92-93 Mark Jackson: 14pts, 8ast, 4reb (82 games played, 41-41 record)
93-94 Haywoode Workman: 7pts, 6ast, 3reb (52 starts, 47-35 record)
93-94 Pooh Richardson: 10pts, 6ast, 3reb (25 starts)
94-95 Mark Jackson: 7pts, 7ast, 3reb (82 games played, 52-30 record)
95-96 Mark Jackson: 10pts, 7ast, 4reb (82 games played, 52-30 record)
96-97 Mark Jackson: 9pts, 9ast, 4reb (30 starts, 39-43 record)
96-97 Travis Best: 9pts, 4ast, 2reb (46 starts)

76ers
97-98 Allen Iverson: 22pts, 6ast, 3reb (80 games played, 31-51 record)
98-99 Eric Snow: 8pts, 6ast, 3reb (48 games played, 28-22 record)
99-00 Eric Snow: 7pts, 7ast, 3reb (82 games played, 49-33 record)
00-01 Eric Snow: 9pts, 7ast, 3reb (50 games played, 56-26 record)
00-01 Aaron Mckie: 11pts, 5ast, 4reb (46 starts)
01-02 Eric Snow: 12pts, 6ast, 3reb (61 games played, 43-39 record)
02-03 Eric Snow: 12pts, 6ast, 4reb (82 games played, 48-34 record)

Pistons
03-04 Chauncey Billups: 16pts, 6ast, 3reb (78 games played, NBA Title)
04-05 Chauncey Billups: 16pts, 6ast, 3reb (80 games played, 54-28)

Knicks
05-06 Stephon Marbury: 16pts, 6ast, 3reb (60 games played, 23-59)

Bobcats
08-09 Raymond Felton: 14pts, 6ast, 4reb (81 games played, 35-47)
08-09 DJ Augustin: 11pts, 3ast, 2reb (72 games played)
09-10 Raymond Felton: 12pts, 5ast, 3reb (80 starts, 44-38)
09-10 DJ Augustin: 6pts, 2ast, 1reb (80 games played)

The stats say if LB has a PG that can score it's not likely to happen. Two years removed from LB and Rod Strickland went on to average +17pts/gm with Portland and Washington. The Allen Iverson PG experiment obviously didn't work well his 1st year in Philly. However, when he had possibly his best scorer at PG he won his only NBA title. I think DJ and Ray are PGs that don't fit the LB PG mold (you can add Billups and Strickland to that list). I think LB would rather have Mark Jackson or Eric Snow run his offense than a PG that has an above average scoring ability. This year we needed all the scoring we could get due to the lack of scoring in the front court. I think LB should have removed the chains from the PGs and it's possible we could have finished in the top 5 or 6 in the conference. If LB returns (which I suppose is highly unlikely) do you see the production changing for the PG?

[dnbman]

I wanted to look back at the stats of LB PGs over the years and see if he ever gave any of his PGs the freedom to score the basketball. I think DJ's ability to shoot the ball was lost in our offense and Ray's ability to attack the basket could have been used a lot more this season. With that said let's look at the numbers;

Spurs
88-89 Johnny Dawkins: 14pts, 7ast, 3reb (32 games played, 21-61 record)
89-90 Rod Strickland: 14pts, 8ast, 4reb (31 games played, 56-26 record)
89-90 Mo Cheeks: 10pts, 6ast, 3reb (50 games played, 56-26 record)
90-91 Rod Strickland: 13pts, 8ast, 4reb (56 games played, 55-27 record)
91-92 Rod Strickland: 13pts, 8ast, 4reb (57 games played, 47-35 record)
*Larry only coached 38 games this season

Pacers
92-93 Mark Jackson: 14pts, 8ast, 4reb (82 games played, 41-41 record)
93-94 Haywoode Workman: 7pts, 6ast, 3reb (52 starts, 47-35 record)
93-94 Pooh Richardson: 10pts, 6ast, 3reb (25 starts)
94-95 Mark Jackson: 7pts, 7ast, 3reb (82 games played, 52-30 record)
95-96 Mark Jackson: 10pts, 7ast, 4reb (82 games played, 52-30 record)
96-97 Mark Jackson: 9pts, 9ast, 4reb (30 starts, 39-43 record)
96-97 Travis Best: 9pts, 4ast, 2reb (46 starts)

76ers
97-98 Allen Iverson: 22pts, 6ast, 3reb (80 games played, 31-51 record)
98-99 Eric Snow: 8pts, 6ast, 3reb (48 games played, 28-22 record)
99-00 Eric Snow: 7pts, 7ast, 3reb (82 games played, 49-33 record)
00-01 Eric Snow: 9pts, 7ast, 3reb (50 games played, 56-26 record)
00-01 Aaron Mckie: 11pts, 5ast, 4reb (46 starts)
01-02 Eric Snow: 12pts, 6ast, 3reb (61 games played, 43-39 record)
02-03 Eric Snow: 12pts, 6ast, 4reb (82 games played, 48-34 record)

Pistons
03-04 Chauncey Billups: 16pts, 6ast, 3reb (78 games played, NBA Title)
04-05 Chauncey Billups: 16pts, 6ast, 3reb (80 games played, 54-28)

Knicks
05-06 Stephon Marbury: 16pts, 6ast, 3reb (60 games played, 23-59)

Bobcats
08-09 Raymond Felton: 14pts, 6ast, 4reb (81 games played, 35-47)
08-09 DJ Augustin: 11pts, 3ast, 2reb (72 games played)
09-10 Raymond Felton: 12pts, 5ast, 3reb (80 starts, 44-38)
09-10 DJ Augustin: 6pts, 2ast, 1reb (80 games played)

The stats say if LB has a PG that can score it's not likely to happen. Two years removed from LB and Rod Strickland went on to average +17pts/gm with Portland and Washington. The Allen Iverson PG experiment obviously didn't work well his 1st year in Philly. However, when he had possibly his best scorer at PG he won his only NBA title. I think DJ and Ray are PGs that don't fit the LB PG mold (you can add Billups and Strickland to that list). I think LB would rather have Mark Jackson or Eric Snow run his offense than a PG that has an above average scoring ability. This year we needed all the scoring we could get due to the lack of scoring in the front court. I think LB should have removed the chains from the PGs and it's possible we could have finished in the top 5 or 6 in the conference. If LB returns (which I suppose is highly unlikely) do you see the production changing for the PG?

Great comparison.

I don't see much changing other than a slight rise in assists and points because of overall offensive efficiency. Ultimately, the point guards have to play the system and make use of their opportunities. I don't think Larry has a problem with his pgs scoring. He just wants to see the offensive run rather than a pg trying to score right off the bat.

I have no idea what to make of DJ. He seems like he wants to be Steve Nash, but I don't think he has the tools. It's tough to say how much Brown is limiting him.

[BRNC]

There is a degree that all systems (varies with positions) will put some offensive limitation on a player...it might be the reason that Ray is still "desired" by some other teams...they know the limitations our system "force" on him but they view him as a good fit for their system...

I don't think many of us have fallen in love with LBs offense and I'd like to see it change...it is a very good comparison...

[Fred Williamson]

what we did, was not "playing the right way". You won't win anything in today's league if you don't shoot it from outside.

[BRNC]

The league has changed somewhat...but to "shoot from the outside" you have to have guys that can "hit from the outside"...I don't think we have an over-abundance of those...

[Fred Williamson]

agreed....

[Ampsportsduo]

To start, nice research. Loved reading informed posts about 1000x times more than "I know what I saw" posts.

That said, your thesis:


I think DJ's ability to shoot the ball was lost in our offense and Ray's ability to attack the basket could have been used a lot more this season.I don't see the historical comparisons proving your case. You specifically mention Rod Strickland, but only once did he advance past the first round in the playoffs as a starter and that was with LB in San Antonio. I'm not sure that his career arc proves LB underutilized him, particularly when you consider he was a 1st time starter with LB and most player improve after a few years.

There's also the issue of only listing the starters. I didn't do a full review of the stats, but typically LB's PGs (starters and backups) score between 20-25 ppg. Is that really being "chained"? Raymond and DJ averaged a combined 25 last season (08-09) and 18 this year. With Jack initiating more offense and taking more shots than our previous SGs this would seem to fall right in line. LB asks his PGs to set up the offense, play tough defense (review the list of his starters again, wouldn't want to face any of those guys in their prime, except the Star...) and finding guys that can do both of those and have that sense of when to score/take over is what HOFers are made of.

Since Chauncey serves as the benchmark of LB's team success, if you look at his numbers from the title year his numbers aren't that divergent from Raymond's.

Chauncey: 5/12.8 fg/g, 1.7/4.3 3p/g, 5.2/5.9 ftm/a, 16.9 pts
Raymond: 4.9/10.6 fg/g, .8/2.0 3p/g, 1.7/2.2 ftm/a, 12.1 pts

To my eyes the most glaring difference is Raymond's lack of FTAs. At only 2.2/g (career low) there were only 15 players that played more than 30 min/game that attempted fewer FT/game (Unfortunately for Cats fans, one was our favorite PF). For an offense based on penetration, it's surprising. Now Crash and Jack are amongst the league leaders, again pointing to our PGs not being the primary initiators. Assuming that both stay, a point guard with the ability to spot up and then drive off the pump fake would be the best... in other words Chauncey Billups (of 5 years ago). DJ can do those things, but being a complete liability on defense will continue to keep him in a reserve role as long as he plays. Ironically, Raymond shot a very good % from 3, but his attempts were much lower than other "shooting" PG's that play comparable minutes. If people knew he was going to take (and hit) the shot off the drive and kick it would be even easier to pump and drive himself, hopefully leading to more FTs and more scoring. If the Cats could get that, I don't think anyone could expect more.