Grizzlies could trade all 3 1st rounders

[ohara831]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/66669/20100519/grizzlies_could_deal_first_round_picks/

Now, doesn't this option give you a lot to think about. What would we have to give up? Likely Crash, the only real impact player we have. Would you for all 3 first rounders?

[Plowright]

Lol... No way!!! Are you crazy??? Drafts can be pure guesswork, why would we trade crash an allstar for 3 people who have proved nothing!

[Plowright]

And with our drafting history!?!?!?

[DY_nasty]

I feel bad for Griz fans. That team had no bench depth at all. Now they're at the point of the draft they have the perfect situation where they can address those problems and the team wants to trade picks?

At least I'm not a Memphis fan...

[DY_nasty]

Lol... No way!!! Are you crazy??? Drafts can be pure guesswork, why would we trade crash an allstar for 3 people who have proved nothing!
I'd trade Crash for 3 1st round picks in a heartbeat. I'd pop bottles, dance around Trade St. naked, and kiss the first 200 people I saw.

Just because we got some bad luck in the past, it doesn't mean that we give up on drafting forever. And you don't even need a lottery pick to be successful in the draft either. If anything, I think the pressure of making the most of top draft choices makes it extremely difficult for scouts and GMs to make 'smart' picks.

[SWedd523]

I'd maybe do a S&T with Tyrus and DJ for the 12 and either of the latter picks. I'd even throw in UPS for all three.


Tyrus+DJ+UPS
for
Hassan Whiteside+Avery Bradley (or Eric Bledsoe)+Craig Brackins


I'd even throw in a future pick because that'd be one hell of a draft.



Ray/Bradley (or Bledsoe)/Larry
Jack/Hendo/Larry
Crash/Mike Miller?/Graham
Diaw/Brackins/Whiteside
Tyson/Nazr/Diop

[ohara831]

I'd maybe do a S&T with Tyrus and DJ for the 12 and either of the latter picks. I'd even throw in UPS for all three.


Tyrus+DJ+UPS
for
Hassan Whiteside+Avery Bradley (or Eric Bledsoe)+Craig Brackins


I'd even throw in a future pick because that'd be one hell of a draft.



Ray/Bradley (or Bledsoe)/Larry
Jack/Hendo/Larry
Crash/Mike Miller?/Graham
Diaw/Brackins/Whiteside
Tyson/Nazr/Diop

I agree 100%. But I think if they are looking for an "impact" player, it would have to be Crash going out. Makes it difficult to swallow.

[teej]

No need to trade Crash for unproven players. He's an All-Star, and the face of the team. Unless you're getting a top 5 pick in a stacked draft, that's not something you do.

And uh, for comparison, the Griz offered the number two last year for Mek...

[GoBobs]

Wallace is way more valuable then those three picks. The 12, 25, 26 is a lot different from say three picks in the top 10 or even 15. Still though, I wonder if they might see Stephen Jackson as an impact player. Stephen Jackson for Marko Jaric plus the 12 would be a sound gm move even if we take a step back next year.

[spectre]

It always trips me out how much people want to give up for a draft pick. Sometimes it is warranted...for instance I thought MJ was crazy to be offering any and everything including Crash to trade up for Westbrook. Now in hindsight he was probably right in doing that. Most times though I think it's not justified at all.

Here it's brought up about moving Crash for a 12th and later picks. Seriously? Is this draft so spectacularly better then all the others that we should trade an all star on a good contract for a late lotto pick?

I really doubt that.


I'd maybe do a S&T with Tyrus and DJ for the 12 and either of the latter picks. I'd even throw in UPS for all three.

~snip~

I'd even throw in a future pick because that'd be one hell of a draft.


Nothing against you personally, and you could well be justified in thinking that way. Either way that's just amazing to me. A 2nd overall, a 9th pick, a 40th pick (who we thought should be a mid/late 1st) and a future 1st for a 12th and a late 1st.

Unless you're assuming value in losing salary (which I could buy) IMO that's just crazy!

I don't watch college ball; I do know however that many put way too much weight on what these guys do in college and think it translates to the pros.

Wasn't some mocks last year saying there were like 7 "stars" in the top 15? Some even predicted Henderson to be a star!

I think if I were a GM I'd never keep a top 10 pick that wasn't a 1st overall (hell, we muffed a 3rd pick) because there's too many that would give up everything for that almighty potential.

Personally I think "potential" is one of the biggest dirty words in the world of basketball. More times than not instead of actually panning out it just bites you in the ass.

[DY_nasty]

Lets all be real, Wallace isn't getting any better than he is right now. Knowing him, he's got a good 2-3 years of quality play left before he goes braindead.

2-3 years is also when most of our other contracts are up. It'd be a clean slate if there ever was one. Cap space, tons of young talent, rfa, we get to draft again... It'd be simple and it'd be crazy efficient. Even if only one of the 3 guys is any good, it'd work out in the end because we wouldn't have a fan base trying to keep around an old and busted jack and crash.

If a team is dumb enough to give away 3 picks for an all-star reserve teetering on the back end of their career, then by all means let us help then.

[spectre]

He got better this past season, and according to Larry Brown he can definitely get better.

Funny how people can declare that players can't get any better when they've just gotten better over the past season.

Crash will be 28 this July...that's the "back end" of his career? Granted a lot of his game is based on athleticism...but there is also plenty about his game based on smarts. That and a better understanding of the game and it's fundamentals will help him get beyond the point when his athleticism starts to fade.


Even if only one of the 3 guys is any good, it'd work out in the endWhat are the odds that even one of those would be any good/better than a fringe starter? Aren't the odds better that we'd get maybe one fringe starter out of those 3 picks than an above average player?

[DY_nasty]

He got better this past season, and according to Larry Brown he can definitely get better.

Crash will be 28 this July...that's the "back end" of his career? Granted a lot of his game is based on athleticism...but there is also plenty about his game based on smarts. That and a better understanding of the game and it's fundamentals will help him get beyond the point when his athleticism starts to fade.



What are the odds that even one of those would be any good/better than a fringe starter? Aren't the odds better that we'd get maybe one fringe starter out of those 3 picks than an above average player?
For a guy like Wallace? Yeah. Its hard for me to think of any other wings in the league that take more abuse night in and night out on both sides of the floor like Wallace. When he starts to break down it will be fast.

And yeah, the odds that we'd get some great player out of it would be slim, but it still lays out a great foundation down the road. I said earlier that I'm generally opposed to blowing up the team as it is right now because it'd put us in the same spot that we'd be at in 3 years anyways. However if an opportunity arises where we're able to get some young players (which would immediately be better than Matt Bonner, Roger Mason Jr, Glen Davis, Dontell Jefferson, Ryan Hollins, Diop, etc) that would be on those lovely rookie contracts and still have the cap space to look forward in 3 years then why not?

The pick that we gave Chicago next year is lottery protected anyways, may as well get the most out of it in a tanked season. The protection on that pick will get worse and worse with each year anyways.

I know that this opinion won't be popular, and the odds of it happening aren't high at all, but if it were to go down we'd be sitting on a Blazers/Thunder situation where one or two bad seasons would pay off tremendously down the road.

[spectre]

Then first we should start with getting Pritchard from the Blazers...because we absolutely suck at drafting. Until we do that (and thank God MJ realizes this with his "get better via trade" position) then we need to not base any future success on the draft.

I don't see us tanking anytime in the near future. The FO is primarily concerned with turning us around financially and that means putting butts in seats. As we've seen from our first few seasons...a mediocre team winning 30-35 games won't cut it.

And how can anyone blame them? Who other than a Cuban type could stomach losing 10-15 million a year?

Next year's pick is ours regardless as we can't send out two consecutive picks before they're "in hand". Even so we won't tank to make it better, and if it's left up to me we'll trade that sucker just as soon as we can.

If we don't then odds are we'll be talking about trading that guy for a late 1st in a couple years just like we're talking about moving our previous picks for later ones now.

[ohara831]

Spectre, I do agree that our track record with draft picks has been pretty dismal. And I only made this thread to invite discussion. I am not advocating for or against the idea of trading Crash for the 3 picks. Certainly I would rather it be something like Jack and DJ as opposed to Crash. But the word was that the 3 picks could be had for an "impact" player. And unless someone values Jack more than I expect, we only have 1 "impact" player on the team - Crash. That was the only reason I mentioned him.

That said, Dy nasty makes a good point on Crash. Many times over the past couple seasons we have all lamented how his game seems to lend itself to his getting injured. And every one of us cringes everytime he lands hard as one more bad concussion can find him being out of the league in 2-3 years. I hope that does not occur, but you know that it is far more likely with him than any other SF playing simply due to his playing style.

I think the only way I am inclined to think we do something like this is if it was part of a bigger plan. Trying to take those 3 picks in some combination with something like DJ or Jack and trying to get to #2 to get Evan Turner. Now he is a special talent which would warrent making such a move.

[spectre]

Ohara you know you're all right by me. I always try to separate the post from the poster and my every intent was to do that here. In fact, I've tried to make the point about how much I detest posters trying to make the argument about the poster vs the post.

Heck...I've been known to make posts about things that I'm totally against. I've even argued the opposite of what I personally felt was a better way to go.

I applaud you for making the thread to invite discussion...not like we have a lot to talk about anyway.

So long as the intent is to try and better the team we're all pulling for everything's up for debate IMO.

[teej]

Ohara, Philly isn't giving up #2, they love Turner.

As far as Crash goes, I don't think you guys realize he's only really played 6 seasons and only played 4 real playoff games. In fact, once you count his games missed due to injury, he's only played the minutes of a 5-year player. He barely played in college, and he's shown he's able to transition from athletic freak to talented, smart veteran. Why's he going to suddenly fall off a cliff? His best year was last year! Wow.

And as far as tanking, dynasty, that's not happening. The next few years MJ needs to win, so he doesn't go broke. The team lost tens of millions last year. MJ needs to get some of that back via playoff games and STH's. That doesn't happen when you treade your best player for three rookies who weren't in the Top 10...

[Plowright]

I am just staggerd that some people talk about trading GW so easily... he IS the charlotte bobcats end of...

[TattoodCats4life]

You just DONT trade GW.

Jax hell yeah go right ahead. Diaw oh hells yeah.

I'd even be happy with giving them future cap, al la Jax and TC for those 3 picks and something of value to us *cough* gasol *cough.

[SWedd523]

I may not have been clear enough but the deal would have to go down as

1. Tyrus and DJ for 12 and 23

and then if they want to add ups and the other pick into it then it'd be

2. Tyrus, DJ, and UPS for 12, 23, 25.


If, according to you, we should trade any pick not in the top 10, it shouldn't matter what we trade them for as long as the players match up. Tyrus is still just a developing young guy, so why not switch him for a guy like Whiteside who is basically the same thing but at 7'0?

DJ hasn't worked out (this season) so why not trade him for the best perimeter defending PG in the draft, Bradley, who LB would absolutely love.

And Craig Brackins was my guy this year, like Harden last year, and Bayless the year before. The latter two have had success in the pros and I fully expect Brackins to follow suit. Those 3 can easily replace the three we have. Not to mention we'd have them on rookie salaries that would save us $5mil or so from Tyrus to throw at Ray and an outside shooter.

Equal short term value with a brighter long term value. I don't see how that can be such a bad thing.

[Plowright]

All anyone ever cares about on draft night is people who played for their team or they like. Just like in the previous post Craig Brackins is "my guy" everyone's draft choices are horrendusley biast...

[spectre]

I may not have been clear enough but the deal would have to go down as

1. Tyrus and DJ for 12 and 23

and then if they want to add ups and the other pick into it then it'd be

2. Tyrus, DJ, and UPS for 12, 23, 25.


If, according to you, we should trade any pick not in the top 10, it shouldn't matter what we trade them for as long as the players match up. Tyrus is still just a developing young guy, so why not switch him for a guy like Whiteside who is basically the same thing but at 7'0?

DJ hasn't worked out (this season) so why not trade him for the best perimeter defending PG in the draft, Bradley, who LB would absolutely love.

And Craig Brackins was my guy this year, like Harden last year, and Bayless the year before. The latter two have had success in the pros and I fully expect Brackins to follow suit. Those 3 can easily replace the three we have. Not to mention we'd have them on rookie salaries that would save us $5mil or so from Tyrus to throw at Ray and an outside shooter.

Equal short term value with a brighter long term value. I don't see how that can be such a bad thing.

In my scenario we'd be trading "potential" for established talent...and even those can still have some of that P word up into their late 20s. That's pretty much what Larry Brown does anyway after he picks them and they lose value...just like they've lost it in your trade for picks idea. I'd just as soon do the trade when the value is at it's peak; right before/during the draft.

Picks can pan out and we've seen it happen multiple times. Up til now though we've just sucked at it...and with high picks too. That's not to say we wouldn't hit a homer on the very next one. I'm just going with the odds.

I'm not against your particular idea, esp. if it loses money now and in the future. The guys you're trading haven't established themselve and they (as of end season) were all bench guys...so it's not that big of an issue.

[DY_nasty]

In 2-3 years, this team will look entirely different anyways. However, if someone is dumb enough to send us a bunch of picks for Crash I'd take it. Thats just me. But even then I think the rest of us should consider it as well. We've been fans of a young team. Okafor got dealt - we dealt with it. We're actually going to be a lot better off in the long run. Ray might leave - mainly because if his price is too much, we'll be better off down the road. If Crash leaves, I'd like there to be a positive out of it as well. This is about as positive as it gets too. Crash is aging in runningback years.

You can't let past history in the draft scare you though. It'll just turn you into a Raiders/Lions fan.

[spectre]

When anyone mentions trading Crash I always flash back to the TJ Ford for Gerald Wallace trade our genius FO almost did but ended up backing out because the Toronto GM wanted a pick too.

Who knows though...maybe they're on a roll after the Jax deal.

[SWedd523]

That's the point I was trying to make. Sure we're trading for draft picks, but what we're essentially trading is draft picks themselves. Tyrus hasn't really done much other than show he has immense potential. We trade him for another guy with immense potential in Hassan Whiteside, or Patrick Patterson or Greg Monroe if either one of them drops.

DJ has regressed this year and has seemed to have a falling out with LB and some of the other players so we move him for a guy I think LB would simply LOVE. Avery Bradley was the highest rated Freshman this past year (yeah, above Wall...) and is by far the best perimeter defender in his class. He also defers to other guys (to a fault sometimes) and has a solid jumper with some range.

Craig Brackins is my love child of this draft. I had Bayless 2 years ago (turned out pretty good) and Harden last year (turned out pretty good). Brackins will most assuredly follow suit and keep my track record spotless :D He can do everything UPS did with more polish but less athleticism.

Potential for Potential, more of a lateral move with...... potential...... to make us look like geniuses if one of them becomes special. I was never in support of trading Crash for the picks. Never. Ever. Ever.

[ohara831]

SWedd, I like Brackins alot also. By most mocks, he can had in the mid 20's. I think come a year from now, whoever lands him that late will be getting a bargain. Like you, I think he will prove to be a really good NBA player.

[Marvel]

This is insane lock this thread up.Trade Crash for 3 1st rounders.......yall must have skipped breakfast.Either that or a protein shake OVERLOAD.

FAIL!!!!

[WhatAboutBob_cats]

And uh, for comparison, the Griz offered the number two last year for Mek...

Ugh, I just rolled my eyes so hard. Considering the lack of play and emergence of Nazr and Ratliff, we prolly would have been ok without Tyson. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 but I can only imagine who we could have drafted. Steph, Tyreke, Harden, Jennings, Hendo (again), etc. Oh well, if ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

[DY_nasty]

If we make that trade and draft Tyreke or Curry, then we don't even need to bring in Jackson. Raja is still nice trade bait and we could've done who knows what... If I had heard about that deal earlier I'd have raised hell. Can't believe that didn't happen.

Its easy to think that someway our FO will swindle Toronto into giving us Bosh for the low low price of Diop, but those things just aren't going to happen. One-sided trades really don't happen in the NBA unless you're the Lakers or on the phone with Isiah Thomas. The best way to build a team is through the draft. The Spurs had a hall of fame center but had no problem with taking a season off to land another one in Tim Duncan. Whats wrong with taking a season or two off to guarantee a 5+ years of high-level play down the line?

Its better than hoping that middle of the road guys turn into perennial allstars over night.

[teej]

Ugh. So much in this thread makes me SMH.

Dynasty/whatbaoutbobcats, we would've used that pick to get Thabeet. Remember at that time Nazr was on his play me/trade me rant, Gana was Gana, and Ratliff was a free agent.

Swedd, you also liked T-Will and Earlllll, how'd that work? But if we turned TT into Hassan or Monroe I'd be thrilled. I'll take a pass on any Kentucky player not named Wall (that means Bledsoe, too). And DJ for Bradley? Why the hell not.

EDIT: And dynasty, even if Crash is aging in RB years, he's still got 4-5 years in him...

[DY_nasty]

The pick would've went to Thabeet? Ew. Nevermind then...

[SWedd523]

Swedd, you also liked T-Will and Earlllll, how'd that work? Well T-Will averaged 14 points, 7 boards, and 6 assists in the last two months of the season, so I'd say he did pretty well? He also has more triple doubles in one year than our entire franchise has managed to put together so I think I'll go with, that worked pretty well.

Earllllll was just a guy I liked because of his name. Not that he was anything special other than an interesting prospect.

Neither one was my "guy" though so it doesn't really matter if I liked them. If anybody has been around me come draft time (or even throughout the year), they'll know I always have one "guy" who doesn't get respect until that year.

Eric Gordon was actually my 08 guy from the time I saw him in high school, but I decided (stupidly) to change for Bayless. I've since gone back to Gordon (see below) and you can see how well he's played.

Harden was my 09 guy from the moment he went back to school for his sophomore year because he was so undervalued in a deep guard draft. He obviously has been a solid pickup for OKC. Even that year, ask Slam, I had Craig in the wings ready to take his place. He shottttttt up draft boards before falling once his team had a bad season.


I'll bet that Craig follows suit

[BRNC]

If they'll take DJ and TT for 12 and 25...good...if they'll take Jax for 12 and 25...good...if they'll take Doris for a a tooth pick...works for me...:p

[teej]

if they'll take Doris for a a tooth pick...works for me...:p

It doesn't even need to be a working toothpick...:biggrin:

[kickazzz2000]

It doesn't even need to be a working toothpick...:biggrin:

We already got one broke toothpick.

[teej]

We already got one broke toothpick.

Lexy?

10char

[kickazzz2000]

Lexy?

10char

Very good, professor.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Guys, I love Crash but when you look at Oklahoma City and their very young and talented group of players you have to consider trading him. Being set up for the future is more important to me than a two or three season run. Plus all those rookie contracts is a big plus.

Will the Bobcats be set up to win right away with Crash gone? Probably not but in no more than three years we could have a 50 or more win team. Drafting is a crap shoot but this seems to be a fairly deep draft so why not go out on a limb and get some possible stars for our future?

[K1NGofAKR0N]

do it trade gerald wallace and mayb get them to take on nazr or diop too. but if they screw up on all 3 of these picks id be pretty mad. we havnt had a single good draft pick in our whole history except stealing derrick in the second round last year

[thesnowman22]

You dont trade an all-star in his prime without getting real, PROVEN players.

[DY_nasty]

You dont trade an all-star in his prime without getting real, PROVEN players.
Happens all the time. Its actually necessary for rebuilding.

I'm not too hyped on the idea of watching us be an above-average-at-best team for the next 2-3 years in stagnation while the rest of the league gets better. I'm not crazy about banking everything on free agency either.

[King Taharqa]

No one on the Bobcats should be viewed as "untouchable", anyone should be available for trade if the deal is sweet enough. I love G-Force and he's our stud, but he hasnt done enough to warrant that at this point and he has an injury history. If someone offered us the farm for him we'd be fools not to take it. Im not saying lets shop the guy, but I dont view him as a "superstar" who cant be moved.

[spectre]

Happens all the time. Its actually necessary for rebuilding.

I'm not too hyped on the idea of watching us be an above-average-at-best team for the next 2-3 years in stagnation while the rest of the league gets better. I'm not crazy about banking everything on free agency either.

Not picking on you...but I've seen comments like this every year. The team/players won't get better. Stagnation. We'll have to blow it up in a year or two...let's do it now!

Yet we continue to get better. Players continue to get better (or they're moved). Just because we don't have a 20 year old stud doesn't mean we can't continue to progress and it also doesn't mean we can't compete and continue to compete.

Some teams might/will get better...others will get worse. I definitely don't think we're one of the latter yet, and smart moves here and there will help us to keep it going.

Absolutely agreed King. The question as always is the value coming back.

[dnbman]

Not picking on you...but I've seen comments like this every year. The team/players won't get better. Stagnation. We'll have to blow it up in a year or two...let's do it now!

Yet we continue to get better. Players continue to get better (or they're moved). Just because we don't have a 20 year old stud doesn't mean we can't continue to progress and it also doesn't mean we can't compete and continue to compete.

Some teams might/will get better...others will get worse. I definitely don't think we're one of the latter yet, and smart moves here and there will help us to keep it going.

Absolutely agreed King. The question as always is the value coming back.

I go back and fourth on this type of thinking. There are plenty of teams that stay terrible and plenty of teams that stay good, suggesting that this strategy of blowing up the team doesn't necessarily work.

However, when you have teams change their fortunes around by amassing draft picks and young talent, like Portland, you have to consider the option.

Ultimately, I think we're in the middle of a five year run of Kobe and the '03 class dominating. That makes the prospects of us putting together a real contender very unlikely. However, who knows what's going to emerge after that. Will that be the year all of these young pgs start to dominate the playoffs? What do we do then? Aim for '18?

Therefore, I think we need to just keep focusing on putting the best team we can on the court and making solid trades when we can. Gambling on draft picks is more 50-50 than it appears.

[thesnowman22]

guys, we're not talking about top-5 picks here, we're talking lower. there is no guarantee, and actually a less than probable chance that these picks would make us a better team.

Very few NBA players become all-stars. The odds of one of those becoming as good as GW is slim. No reason to take the chance.

And this team is not in rebuilding mode. Not in my opinion. I say try to get BETTER NOW. We just had the best year in team history, getting rid of our best player to take 2 steps back with no guarantee or getting better in the future is STUPID.

If you were bound and determined to get rid of wallace to get better, then trade him for an established player or two, not three unknown quantities.

And yes, it happens, but that doesnt make it right.

[dnbman]

And this team is not in rebuilding mode. Not in my opinion. I say try to get BETTER NOW. We just had the best year in team history, getting rid of our best player to take 2 steps back with no guarantee or getting better in the future is STUPID.

I should have added, I was just talking about the idea in the abstract. I definitely don't want to trade Wallace for those picks.

[SWedd523]

I would trade Crash for three draft picks, but not with the highest one being #12 and the other two being #25 and #28.



For example, the Timberwolves for #4, #16, and Ramon Sessions for Crash, Nazr, and a future 2nd rounder.

Ramon/DJ
Jack/Hendo
UPS
Tyrus/Diaw/Lexy
Chandler/Diop

We then use the #4 for a guy like Wesley Johnson or Al-Farouq Aminu (both of which are tremendous athletes, scorers, defenders, and rebounders with Johnson comparing favorably to Danny Granger and Aminu to Josh Smith or Jeff Green)

Ramon/DJ
Jack/Hendo
#4/UPS
Tyrus/Diaw/Lexy
Chandler/Diop

Then for the #16 we can target basically anything, as we have good options at any position. We'd obviously be weakest at the Center spot so maybe a guy like Whiteside (Amazing athlete, scoring potential, 7'7'' wingspan), Orton (who everyone compares to Perkins... the guy giving Dwight fits right now) or Alabi (7'2'' defensive juggernaut).

Our lineup next year could potentially be:

Ramon/DJ
Jack/Hendo
Johnson/UPS
Tyrus/Diaw/Lexy
Chandler/Whiteside/Diop



Are we worse next year? Maybe by a little, but we'd still be a playoff team (which is our goal, as we wouldn't be a contender anyway), and we'd be set up nicely for the future.

[EC123]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/66669/20100519/grizzlies_could_deal_first_round_picks/

Now, doesn't this option give you a lot to think about. What would we have to give up? Likely Crash, the only real impact player we have. Would you for all 3 first rounders?

What do you need a first round draft pick for?

The Bobcats need a PROVEN post player, not NBA Draft night hype.

If the Bobcats were able to keep all of their starters from this season and get Al Jefferson, somehow, they would be at least a 2nd Round playoff team next season, even though I want Diaw gone, and replaced with Tyrus Thomas in the starting lineup.

[polarcat]

I agree with Swedd and don't believe anyone is untouchable for the right price. Wallace is my favorite 'Cat, but the Bobcats are my team and want success for the team overall. Honestly, I'm not a fan of the blueprint that has been used up until now in building this team. We've struck out in the draft, taken on too much dead wasteful salary and don't utilize youth and draft picks properly. Having a top-flight PG, a big man that can dominate and shooters that can knock down shots from the perimeter is the formula to win in this NBA, and we don't have that at all. I prefer the Portland/OKC way of building and trusting your developing draft picks into your team, but that will not be the case here for awhile. This summer is going to be crazy with all of the talented All-Star players leaving for new destinations. Teams like Chicago, NY and Miami could be the new power players in the east. Philly and Washington (if they get something good for Arenas) could be in the race, so our ceiling is probably limited to a #4-6 seed. I think we can win our 1st round series the way we are built, but that I feel is our limit for the next year or two. In the next year or two some crappy contracts come off the books and LB will probably be gone as well, so I hope we don't cement ourselves into any long term contracts and eventually start a re-build. Wallace will be 28 at the start of this season, so selling high on him before he starts to decline will probably be in order in, say, 2012. By that point he will have been here from day one, and if we haven't gone past the first round or so, he should be moved to a team that could net him a ring. If our best player can't get us but so far, it would be wise to move on at that point.

Not trying to be negative, but just a realist. I'm trying to figure out if our team is a glass half-full or a glass half-empty right now. Too many question marks between the pg spot, the pf spot, center, hendo & ups, dj & ajinca, and jack's age. For now, I'm enjoying building off a playoff spot and not counting the days until the draft lottery to see where we select. Let's hope we can keep working the trade market and improving until we can't anymore.

[DY_nasty]

I think its safe to say that nearly all of Bobcats fans have been traumatized by the draft :rolleyes:

Teams that draft well are successful. Instead of running away from the idea of improving through the draft entirely, how about we just hope that MJ's scouting dept. has improved through experience. DJ is a great young pg prospect - he just sucks underneath Larry Brown. And Lexi is STILL the youngest player on the team, it was completely unreasonable to think that he'd put up any kind of solid or consistent numbers his first two seasons. He'd still have been a top 10 pick in this years draft easily.

Good teams improve through the draft. Unless you're the Lakers or Celtics, then you just call Stern and make things happen.

[dnbman]

What do you need a first round draft pick for?

The Bobcats need a PROVEN post player, not NBA Draft night hype.

If the Bobcats were able to keep all of their starters from this season and get Al Jefferson, somehow, they would be at least a 2nd Round playoff team next season, even though I want Diaw gone, and replaced with Tyrus Thomas in the starting lineup.

Fair enough. But that SOMEHOW is a bit of a mystical occurrence. You don't just "get Al Jefferson" without giving up quite a bit.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

You dont trade an all-star in his prime without getting real, PROVEN players.If you want to assure that you have cap relief while having plenty of young talent to mature you would most certainly consider trading an All Star. If you could say get a couple of high first rounders while freeing yourself of some overpaid trash on your team you most certainly trade your lone All Star. I love Crash but the man is one player and in my mind building through the draft is the best way to go. I would love to say I am happy with our cats being a low seeded team for the next three or four years as they are currently constructed but I can't say that. I can however say that I can handle our team being out of the playoffs or a low seed in them for two or three years if it means the young players become stars and solid contributors. That and our Bobcats are set for the next half dozen years or more.

If nothing else having two or three more rookie contracts with players who contribute will allow for at least one max contract player in that time.

I realize drafting is anything but a sure thing but if rookies don't pan out free agency is a future option. Still, I could see us being like OK City and having a young core set to contend for many years. I say it is worth it to go that route. Then again that is if we could trust those in charge of the scouting.

[BRNC]

I think our scouts do a solid job...makes me wonder how they feel after doing that job the coach (LB) can overrule them and take DJ instead of Lopez...would not make my day...:facepalm:

[DY_nasty]

I think our scouts do a solid job...makes me wonder how they feel after doing that job the coach (LB) can overrule them and take DJ instead of Lopez...would not make my day...:facepalm:
I agree. For what its worth, almost no one saw Morrison flopping the way he did. And who knew Sean May had a weight problem?

[teej]

I agree. For what its worth, almost no one saw Morrison flopping the way he did. And who knew Sean May had a weight problem?

Those were both Bernie picks though. Since MJ came in, his scouts have drafted Dudley, Hendo, and UPS. I highly doubt DJ or Lexy were the scouts picks :facepalm:

[Chef]

And who knew Sean May had a weight problem?

should have been scouting chapel hill and durham area golden corrals, k&w's and timeouts.

[thesnowman22]

bocatsfanintx:

Yes, you CAN do those things, but we arent gonna get a couple of "top picks" this year, he isn't old enough to try to get something out of him before he ages out, and in my opinion, we arent in rebuilding mode yet.

Drafting is at best an inexact science, and we KNOW we have a guy who will get us 18 and 10 and be all-defense. i dont think Crash can be "batman", but he could be "robin", and I dont think trading him makes any sense unless we just blatantly robbed some team who made a dumb deal.

The great teams rarely do it. Year after year teams "rebuild" and it continues to be the lakers, celtics, and spurs. the teams who are successful get a great player or two and keep him, then add pieces.

there is not guarantee that we get anyone of consequence in the draft. Sam Bowie, Michael O, Kwame Brown, etcetcetc.

We have a known quantity. Add pieces. And I would much rather improve to a second round team than revert back to a 35 win group while rolling the dice that in 5-7 years we win a title. there IS a time for that, but at least in my mind, now is not it.

[teej]

Swedd posted something that I thought was interesting a while back. On average, 1 out of the Top 3 picks becomes an All-Star. It only goes downhill from there. That means that, using averages, John Wall or Evan Turner will never be an All-Star. The odds of us picking up an impact player outside the Top 10 is remote. We have one now, why give it up for what amounts to three raffle tickets out of 60. While those raffle tickets may be stacked towards the first few buyers, it's by no means an assurance...

[thesnowman22]

exactly my point.

[dunnlx]

Gerald Wallace is not an impact player, good player, second fiddle yes!


Swedd posted something that I thought was interesting a while back. On average, 1 out of the Top 3 picks becomes an All-Star. It only goes downhill from there. That means that, using averages, John Wall or Evan Turner will never be an All-Star. The odds of us picking up an impact player outside the Top 10 is remote. We have one now, why give it up for what amounts to three raffle tickets out of 60. While those raffle tickets may be stacked towards the first few buyers, it's by no means an assurance...

[DY_nasty]

We're a second round at best team with Gerald as a our best player. May as well sell high.

You didn't see Seattle/OKC pinning their hopes on Rashard Lewis...

[thesnowman22]

Again, he aint batman, but he could be Robin, or even #3. But if we trade him, now we have NOBODY. If you could trade him for TWO quality starters, maybe. But to do it for the say, 17 and 28th pick? Not if im in charge.

If we are gonna trade someone, it should be Jackson, or maybe even felton but not GW unless you get a great return guaranteed.

[dav7z]

Its no way we trade CRASH for draft picks. That bad any way.
If we going to make a crazy move . I woulld take a chance on this .

We take or the Arenas contract 80 milion over the next four years .
And the number 1# pick Wall.

We give up Diop , to help with this crap contract.
Nazz a expiring and DJ to help them to start to build.
We don't offer Felton a qo
We offer TT his 6.2 qo.

Washington does this to save 40 or so milion not chump change.
We do this for a ALL Star Point in Wall.

Wall , Arenas
Jax Hendo.
Wallace , Graham , Brown
TT , Diaw
Chandler . Lexy . Ratliff
Flip would fit well hear if we could stay under tax hell .

We could all so go with Wall and Arenas ,

[DY_nasty]

Again, he aint batman, but he could be Robin, or even #3. But if we trade him, now we have NOBODY. If you could trade him for TWO quality starters, maybe. But to do it for the say, 17 and 28th pick? Not if im in charge.

If we are gonna trade someone, it should be Jackson, or maybe even felton but not GW unless you get a great return guaranteed.
Whats the point of two middle of the road players? I don't want to see us turn into the Pacers (Which we are VERY close to becoming), where we just ride out in purgatory status with crappy, back-end lottery picks for a decade. If you're going to rebuild, you need to go all-in to do it. And the best part of tanking? All those young guys that eat up the minutes in a down season become real trade assets. No more Diop and Nazr for Chris Bosh ridiculousness, we're not fooling anyone with players like that.

For example, look at Terrence Williams. Odds are that some GM is looking at him thinking "Holy crap! Look at that vert - he's gonna be the next Vince! I'd give up a 1st in this stupid, crapshoot draft to get a guy like that. Naw, I'll give him a pick to the draft next year. Ha, I'm a basketball genius! *Mandark laugh*" An exaggeration of course (for some), but its not too far off. Look at how we got jobbed :rolleyes: The point is, real trade assets, young players, and lots of lottery balls > middle of the road, 1st round cannon fodder, with no draft picks or plan future past 2 years.

^Are you high? The Wizards are just gonna give up Wall and Arenas for our trash right? Okay. See, this is exactly what I mean....

[thesnowman22]

You are right in that a lot of people on here make trade suggestiuons that could never happen.

But as far as GW is concerned, you make my point for me.

You wouldnt trade him for 2 middle of the road players. I agree. But if you trade him for 2 middle to late round draft picks, thats more than likely exactly what you do. PLUS they have to develop.

Keep GW, unless its a big time opportunity.

We can get something for Jax maybe. But GW has to stay unless we can rob soemone (which aint happpening).

[Toocool]

Its no way we trade CRASH for draft picks. That bad any way.
If we going to make a crazy move . I woulld take a chance on this .

We take or the Arenas contract 80 milion over the next four years .
And the number 1# pick Wall.

We give up Diop , to help with this crap contract.
Nazz a expiring and DJ to help them to start to build.
We don't offer Felton a qo
We offer TT his 6.2 qo.

Washington does this to save 40 or so milion not chump change.
We do this for a ALL Star Point in Wall.

Wall , Arenas
Jax Hendo.
Wallace , Graham , Brown
TT , Diaw
Chandler . Lexy . Ratliff
Flip would fit well hear if we could stay under tax hell .

We could all so go with Wall and Arenas ,

I don't see that happening one bit. Sure Wizards want to get out of the Arenas contract, but they won't give up Wall for it...would they? I just don't see giving up Wall to get out of 80 million dollars worth of salary. Nor do I see MJ willing to pay Arenas 20 mill a year for 4 years.

[teej]

You wouldnt trade him for 2 middle of the road players. I agree. But if you trade him for 2 middle to late round draft picks, thats more than likely exactly what you do. PLUS they have to develop.


If that.

2009 Draft

12: Hendo
25: Rodrigue Beaubois
28: Wayne Ellington

2008

12: Jason Thompson
25: Nic Batum
28: Donte Greene

2007

12: Thaddeus Young
25: Morris Almond
28: Tiago Splitter

2006

12: Hilton Armstrong
25: Shannon Brown
28: Maurice Ager

2005

12: Yaroslav Korolev
25: Johan Petro
28: Ian Mahimni

2004

12: Robert Swift
25: Tony Allen
28: Beno Udrih

Since the Bobcats have come into existance, there is not one single threesome of the picks offered I'd take over Crash. 2008 is the closest, but it's not that close. In fact, that's the only one I'd take for Jack.

[DY_nasty]

And all of those players are better than Stephen Graham. Every. Single. One.

Guys are also going to have a hard-on for Roddy B. this coming season. The kid can ball, and it wasn't some astounding playoff revelation either - people are actually calling for Carlisle's head for not playing him. But thats another issue, what you're missing is this:

All of the 2009 guys, all of the 2008 guys, Thadeus Young and Tiago Splitter of 2007, Shannon and Hilton of 2006, (lol at 2005), and Tony Allen and Beno of 2004 have actual trade value, room to grow, and are dirt cheap. Heck, Tiago may never come to the NBA and he's valued over many established, solid NBA players.

Its also completely unfair to just say we'd pick the same guys like that....

Btw, can one of the guys talking about staying the course explain to me how we're not just shooting for the 2nd round for the next two years then praying for a miracle addition to the roster?

[spectre]

Btw, can one of the guys talking about staying the course explain to me how we're not just shooting for the 2nd round for the next two years then praying for a miracle addition to the roster?

We've been in existence for 6 years and just made the playoffs for the 1st time...what's at all wrong with shooting for the 2nd round for the next 2 years?

How many times did the Hornets get out of the 2nd round?

I think teams can get better without tanking...which by itself is a very "iffy" proposition. Remember the Bulls right after Jordan? Tanking/going with the young guys didn't help them out so well. The big things that saved them was lucking into the top pick and Rose, us trading out instead of taking Jordan's target in Noah and SAC giving them that sweetheart trade at the deadline 2 years back swapping Nocioni for Salmons/Miller.

Because of our fan situation we're not in a position to tank. On top of that it's hard for me to imagine Jordan living thru a season long tank job.

[dnbman]

Its also completely unfair to just say we'd pick the same guys like that....

I think the point is that those positions rarely offer difference making talent. What people often forget about the draft is that there is a steep decline from 1st pick to the end of the first round in terms of average impact. Yes, you can find stars who have been picked all over the draft or even gone undrafted. However, the likelihood of getting a true difference maker after the first 6 picks or so is low, and gets really low by the mid-round. Meanwhile, they have guaranteed contracts and take staff resources to develop. Unless you see a guy that you truly believe in, going after a mid to late first rounder, on average, is not that beneficial. Trading Wallace for those picks doesn't make sense unless the Bobcats knew that those picks could acquire something of significant value. Aside from being our best basketball player, Wallace is also the biggest reason people return to games.


Btw, can one of the guys talking about staying the course explain to me how we're not just shooting for the 2nd round for the next two years then praying for a miracle addition to the roster?

No matter what your situation is, you're praying for a miracle addition to the roster. (Case in point: Cleveland.) Winning in the NBA is incredibly hard. You can't just blow up your squad because it doesn't have clear talent to win a championship. You have to tinker and continue to improve. Think about the Knicks. There's a realistic chance that all of the upper tier stars sign elsewhere and they're left paying huge contracts to guys like Boozer. So, what did all of that "blowing up" do?

There are two ways to win a championship: have one of the top few players in the NBA or have an incredible all around team game that plays great defense. We're building in that second category because it is so incredibly difficult to get a true superstar. It may not be sexy, but it's reality.

[Scottley Crue]

Draft picks can be wonderful if you have a top five pick and then pick the right guys. There is no guarentee about what any draftee is going to do. However, guys who have been in the league can give you a very good idea of what they're capable of against NBA competition.

There's just no way I could trade away an All-Defense All-Star 6' 7" forward who brings down 10 boards a game and brings a hustle that defines the backbone of the team for three guys who might be good one day. The draft, generally outside of the top 5, is an absoulte gamble. I'm certainly not against young talent, but to trade away a proven highly talented player to take less-than-lottery talent for the sake of looking into the future makes no sense to me.

I understand wanting a championship, and I do too, but this is a process and we've entered the first step of said process. Why blow it up when you're just getting started?

[mrfargo]

Allright, I just got into this conversation about trading to get draft picks.

As much as I would hate to see Crash go, I think we could move ahead wthout him. Here is how I see it.

3 memphis picks and cash for Crash and nazi...then we could sign an allstar free agent with the free cap space.

[dnbman]

Allright, I just got into this conversation about trading to get draft picks.

As much as I would hate to see Crash go, I think we could move ahead wthout him. Here is how I see it.

3 memphis picks and cash for Crash and nazi...then we could sign an allstar free agent with the free cap space.

We couldn't do that unless Memphis had a significant trade exemption. The draft picks are worth zero dollars until a player is actually picked. We'd have to take back some salary if we traded those guys away, which could make the situation even worse. If traded $16M in contracts away, we'd have to take about $14M back. Spectre can fill in with more specific numbers.

[DY_nasty]

Sorry for the long ass post...
We've been in existence for 6 years and just made the playoffs for the 1st time...what's at all wrong with shooting for the 2nd round for the next 2 years?

How many times did the Hornets get out of the 2nd round?

I think teams can get better without tanking...which by itself is a very "iffy" proposition. Remember the Bulls right after Jordan? Tanking/going with the young guys didn't help them out so well. The big things that saved them was lucking into the top pick and Rose, us trading out instead of taking Jordan's target in Noah and SAC giving them that sweetheart trade at the deadline 2 years back swapping Nocioni for Salmons/Miller.

Because of our fan situation we're not in a position to tank. On top of that it's hard for me to imagine Jordan living thru a season long tank job.I think that just about clears it up, thats where I disagree with a lot of you guys. I don't like seeing my teams lose. In the end, there's only one winner at the end of the season. I'd rather lose 60 games developing actual talent and getting plenty of lottery balls than win 45, get bounced, have no real long term development plan, and then talk about how little tweaks to our roster could magically take us to the promised land.

First off, why would you use the worst possible example of a team being blown up by point out the Bulls of the 90s? That franchise was managed horribly after Jordan's first retirement. Thats like saying that all doctors are bad after a bad experience with a plastic surgeon from Thailand.

Even if we do spend the next two years getting smacked in the second round, thats two years of NOT potentially bringing in a young guy with something that we can actually build around.

You say that NBA guys are established and we know what we can get, yeah we get a guy who in all reality shouldn't even be in the league along with Ron Artest. You talk about a gamble, Jack is essentially the same gamble. We HOPED that he'd turn out okay and turn us around and he did, but if he went off the handle again we'd be in a MUCH worse situation than anything Morrison or May could've done. When Morrison and May failed, what happened? We gave them away (too late) but they didn't hurt anything more than our young hopes. If Jackson had failed, Holy. Shit. Talk about a PR disaster. Its 10 times easier to recover from a poor drafting decision than it is to recover from a bad trade.

Also, plenty of struggling teams manage to fill up seats just fine. More times than not, attendance isn't entirely dependent on team success. The Hornets couldn't even sell out playoff games in New Orleans. The Knicks were horrible, but were Top 5 in attendance this year. The Warriors were worse this year and was #11 overall. The attendance in Charlotte sucks because of how Bob Johnson alienated the community.

I think the point is that those positions rarely offer difference making talent. What people often forget about the draft is that there is a steep decline from 1st pick to the end of the first round in terms of average impact. Yes, you can find stars who have been picked all over the draft or even gone undrafted. However, the likelihood of getting a true difference maker after the first 6 picks or so is low, and gets really low by the mid-round. Meanwhile, they have guaranteed contracts and take staff resources to develop. Unless you see a guy that you truly believe in, going after a mid to late first rounder, on average, is not that beneficial. Trading Wallace for those picks doesn't make sense unless the Bobcats knew that those picks could acquire something of significant value. Aside from being our best basketball player, Wallace is also the biggest reason people return to games.

The point is, every one of those guys has trade value, upside, and is better than Stephen Graham. Also, with the right marketing team, you could even tell a fan base that those guys are the future or whatever else you need to say to garner interest in the team. That alone is a significant positive. The odds that you draft a superstar are low, but they're actually existent. Unlike trading magic beans for John Wall and Gilbert Arenas.

Wallace isn't the biggest reason people come to games. Roster Player #3 is. Gerald Wallace is hardly a big enough player to say that he effects attendance in such a way that he's invaluable. When he starts increasing attendance in road games, then he's something special. Until then, he's all-star reserve who completely shit the bed and embarrassed himself all all-star weekend long.



No matter what your situation is, you're praying for a miracle addition to the roster. (Case in point: Cleveland.) Winning in the NBA is incredibly hard. You can't just blow up your squad because it doesn't have clear talent to win a championship. You have to tinker and continue to improve. Think about the Knicks. There's a realistic chance that all of the upper tier stars sign elsewhere and they're left paying huge contracts to guys like Boozer. So, what did all of that "blowing up" do?

There are two ways to win a championship: have one of the top few players in the NBA or have an incredible all around team game that plays great defense. We're building in that second category because it is so incredibly difficult to get a true superstar. It may not be sexy, but it's reality.First off, Cleveland had no clue what it was doing for over a decade. They got lucky. They had no plan. They just happened to suck long enough to get lucky with a phenom type talent. To make matters worse for Cleveland, BECAUSE they didn't have a plan, they're screwed to all hell if Lebron doesn't come back. They overpaid for mediocrity all over that roster. Look at Varejao's contract and laugh knowing that, as an organization, the Bobcats were never that stupid.

Next, the Knicks are the worst possible example of 'building'. They're an example of 'Last Resort'. Isiah was an idiot who believed that he could not only trade for players that'd bring him immediate, short-term success, but also that it made perfect sense to give away all of his teams first round picks for the next decade. The reason that the Knicks are banking everything on free agency is because they have absolutely no other alternatives. The Pistons are a prime example of a half ass plan. Dumars made a very, very intelligent move in the Allen Iverson trade. Many people though that it was about bringing AI in was a basketball move. It wasn't. It was to get AI's fat expiring while still putting a decent product on the floor (Which was actually necessary in Detroit because the area there is really in a rut). Everything went off without a hitch UNTIL he lost patience and sight of goal and signed Gordon and Charlie V. He thought that maybe, the players he still had were good enough (Why? No one knows). Then the spiral into the abyss began. Had he been patient, and looked at his team without the I Think/I Hope shades, he'd have been sitting pretty with a top 10 pick in the draft LAST YEAR as well as this year, as well as a have the cap space to contend with others in free agency this year. Not to mention Stuckey wouldn't have had his development stunted by the Gordon/Hamilton conundrum.

'Tinkering And Improving' only works once you make it to the 2nd round with your existing core. Look at the Nuggets, they still have the ability to 'tinker'. They can make a trade or two, and realistically expect to improve upon what they already have without carrying on a charade. The Heat? No - and Pat Riley was smart enough to see it coming. If Wade stays, he's got the cap room and trade assets to make things happen around him. If Wade leaves, he's not doomed. He's got cap space, plenty of trade assets, and he's got no problem at all going to the draft.

Detroit is the only team in the modern era to win it all without a superstar. Thats not going to be us. They had what? 3 or 4 guys in the all-star game that one year? Yeah, thats actually incredibly MORE rare than just having one superstar with a solid team around him. Not going to be us.

Build to be great. Otherwise its completely pointless and you end up just prolonging your agony as the reality of that you're not good enough to win at all smacks you in the face again and again.

[dnbman]

The bottom half of the NBA is riddled with teams that are terrible much more often than not. They all do basically what you said: get rid of talent and try to get picks so that they might land the player that gets them over the top. However, the teams that do manage the fortune of receiving one of these top tier talents usually only are strong for a short period of time. The conference finals and the finals have been mostly 6-7 teams for years now.

A team like the Bucks may get a guy like Jennings. However, the Bucks are likely going to be in the exact same situation we are: mediocre team with a star or two who can't get over the hump of the top couple of teams in the conference. Just because you get a star doesn't mean you compete.

Meanwhile, the teams that take that strategy are completely irrelevant except for a few days in February and June. One of the reasons why the NBA can often suck is so many teams choose the model of blowing it up for the lottery yet continue to suck. Portland and Seattle are two of the only teams I can think of that have done this effectively, and it took a ton of picks coming their way and amazing luck in the draft to achieve their teams. New Orleans is a perfect example of this type of model that briefly lights only to have the candle put out because the team can't compete with super squads like the Lakers, Mavs, and Celtics. Then those valuable draft picks become free agents, often choosing to leave to be with another team on the cusp that happens to have some cap space because another aging veteran who did the same thing is retiring.

I completely understand why you want us to blow the team up. However, I'd rather be a team that tries to compete than one that goes forward a little bit, blows up, goes forward again, blows up, over and over, hoping to get the one superstar that will turn the franchise into immediate contenders.

Finally, the point about Wallace: he's not a player that draws people initially into the arena. However, his play makes people want to come back after they see him play. People remember him, as I can attest to many conversations I've had with friends who went to their fist games and didn't know anything about the Bobcats. To non-NBA fans, there are only a few guys that draw fans: Bryant, Wade, Lebron, Melo, and maybe Durant and Howard now. The other big names only matter to NBA fans, and those guys-- Nash, Williams, Duncan, and Dirk-- still don't demand that many people attending games. (Of course, a team like Boston who has several stars will bring more people in.) While it would be nice to have a superstar, those are exceedingly rare. In the meantime, Wallace gives us a blue collar talent that can electrify the arena and give Charlotte fans someone to root for.

[dnbman]

Here's a breakdown of the NBA teams:
Eastern Conference:
Boston: classic organization, very rarely not contending.
NJ Nets: Other than a couple of years with Kidd, not contenders
Knicks: haven't been a serious contender since Ewing
Phili: couple of strong seasons with AI.
Toronto: largely irrelevant.

Chicago: largely irrelevant. Some hope for the future
Cleveland: Relevant with Lebron.
Detroit: Some strong seasons with Billups and Wallaces
Indiana: Irrelevant since Miller
Bucks: Mostly irrelevant
Hawks: some fun runs, but mostly irrelevant
Bobcats: irrelevant
Heat: 50/50 contenders
Wizards: irrelevent

Over the last ten or fifteen years, there have only been a few teams that mattered in the Eastern conference.

WEST:
Dallas: always contends, but rarely gets over the hump despite big money being spent.
Houston: flirted with contention; mostly irrelevant since Dream left.
Memphis: irrelevant
New Orleans: flirted with contention; mostly irrelevant.
Spurs: always contends; benefit from having a GOAT PF and supreme luck in drafts.
Denver: marginal contender. They have the pieces don't seem to live up to the hype.
T-Wolves: irrelevant, though painfully contended with KG.
Oklahoma: irrelevant until Durant; cost Seattle the organization while waiting.
Portland: irrelevant until Roy; stacked with young talent but haven't been legit contenders yet. (Though, injuries are arguably the reason.)
Utah: always contend. Fortunate to get Williams shortly after the Malone/Stockton era ended. Stealing Boozer didn't hurt.
GS: irrelevant, though a fun year, like the Hawks.
Clippers: irrelevant
LA: almost always a contender
Phoenix: almost always a contender, but style of play keeps them from getting to the next level.
Sacramento: had a run with Christie, Webber, etc. Now irrelevant.

The point is, two-thirds of the team are virtually irrelevant year in and year out, despite getting tons of draft picks.

Do we want to be one of those teams or do we want to compete? Note also, that the teams that compete frequently still managed to get some o.k. draft picks at times with shrewd trading.

[teej]

Do you have half a clue what you're saying? I admire your desire to win, but c'mon...


I don't like seeing my teams lose. In the end, there's only one winner at the end of the season. I'd rather lose 60 games developing actual talent and getting plenty of lottery balls than win 45, get bounced, have no real long term development plan, and then talk about how little tweaks to our roster could magically take us to the promised land.

So you'd like to be the Clippers? They lose 60 games, and never get better. Mismanagement? maybe. But people have said the same thing about certain members of the Bobcats. When's the last time the Mavs were in the lottery? It's been since Cuban bought the team. Yet, somehow, they keep winning. They draft well and trade well. So do the Lakers. The T-Wolves traded a proven (Garnett) for potential (Al Jeff). Hasn't worked yet. And it's not looking too great, either.


Jack is essentially the same gamble. We HOPED that he'd turn out okay and turn us around and he did, but if he went off the handle again we'd be in a MUCH worse situation than anything Morrison or May could've done. When Morrison and May failed, what happened? We gave them away (too late) but they didn't hurt anything more than our young hopes. If Jackson had failed, Holy. Shit. Talk about a PR disaster. Its 10 times easier to recover from a poor drafting decision than it is to recover from a bad trade.

So missing on Brandon Roy and taking Morrison wasn't as bad as trading for Gana? Drafting Sean May instead of Danny Granger was better than trading for Nazr with expirings? Hmm.


Also, plenty of struggling teams manage to fill up seats just fine. More times than not, attendance isn't entirely dependent on team success. The Hornets couldn't even sell out playoff games in New Orleans. The Knicks were horrible, but were Top 5 in attendance this year. The Warriors were worse this year and was #11 overall. The attendance in Charlotte sucks because of how Bob Johnson alienated the community.

Ever been to a Panthers game? When they win, it's a full crowd and everyone's happy. But when they lose, it's a crypt. There's no one there. Charlotte is a front-running city, if you haven't noticed. Our attendance was horrid, but once we started winning it skyrocketed.


The point is, every one of those guys has trade value, upside, and is better than Stephen Graham. Also, with the right marketing team, you could even tell a fan base that those guys are the future or whatever else you need to say to garner interest in the team. That alone is a significant positive. The odds that you draft a superstar are low, but they're actually existent. Unlike trading magic beans for John Wall and Gilbert Arenas.

Trade value and lying to your fans are great, but after a while, it bites you in the ass. Big time.


Wallace isn't the biggest reason people come to games. Roster Player #3 is. Gerald Wallace is hardly a big enough player to say that he effects attendance in such a way that he's invaluable. When he starts increasing attendance in road games, then he's something special. Until then, he's all-star reserve who completely shit the bed and embarrassed himself all all-star weekend long.

Besides being a total ass to Crash (who was saving himself for the TEAM's playoff run), you're wrong. Gerald is the only exciting player on the team. Take that away, not only will I and most guys on here stop watching, but attendance will drop at least 20%.


They overpaid for mediocrity all over that roster. Look at Varejao's contract and laugh knowing that, as an organization, the Bobcats were never that stupid.

We signed him to the same amount of money for up to three years. Cavs matched, then re-signed him.


Build to be great. Otherwise its completely pointless and you end up just prolonging your agony as the reality of that you're not good enough to win at all smacks you in the face again and again.

I understand that, and MJ totally does. But you can't win the 100 meters until you've made the team...

[DY_nasty]

The Clippers? Cmon man. You're really going to bring up the one team who will never win, ever? Instead you bring up another good example, the wolves. They're the quasi-Thunder. They made the exact same trade philosophically and are suffering, but can you really say that they're in a worse predicament than the Bobcats in 2-3 years? We KNOW that we can get worse much faster than we can get better. The Wolves, they've got a young coach, tons of young players, Jefferson is gonna make some lucky team feel stupid, draft picks, and every team in the league calling to ask them about a guy who hasn't even stepped on the court yet in Rubio.

Missing on Brandon Roy only hurts in the sense that we didn't get Brandon Roy. He didn't actually hurt our cap or anything that would actually hinder the progress of our franchise. We can only cry about the grass being greener for so long. Get some fertilizer, the shit will stink, but our grass can be as green as Portland's.

Success does have something to do with attendance, but its not an end-all factor. Even though the Panthers sucked this year, they were far from bottoming out in attendance. As a matter of fact, they had the 6th best attendance in the league this year. Maybe we should get Jake to start slingin and slangin in the Cable Box...

When does it bite in the ass? And when is it lying to the fan base? If we put a billboard of DJ up above Trade St that says "BELIEVE" does it mean that the organization is lying? No. It means that they're selling their young player and trying to put a face on the team. You don't feel lied to about Okafor do you?

Crash has the charisma of a couch. As of right now he's a fan favorite thats barely more valuable HeHateMe. I like him, but after his showing at the dunk competition and the all-star game, he hurt himself and he's proven irrelevant other than his numbers. The casual fan will not know who he is. The average fan would only think of him while watching a Bobcats game. The hardcore fans and homers are all he has.

We did that? UGH. Stupid FO is stupid...

Err... that analogy really doesn't add up for the NBA. One really good player can drag his team to the playoffs. We have two solid B players and a HoF head coach and you see how far we got. The gap between playoff team and bottom feeder isn't that big at all in today's NBA. But the gap between title contender and everyone else is huge. Huge enough to view being a 1st round team as being as irrelevant as the bottom feeders.

[dnbman]

But the gap between title contender and everyone else is huge. Huge enough to view being a 1st round team as being as irrelevant as the bottom feeders.

That's my point. There are only a handful of real contenders, and they're most the same teams, year in and year out.

So, do we lost a whole bunch of seasons for MAYBE a chance to punch through, creating a culture of losing and alienating fans in the process? Or, do we do our best every season and try to make it work?

I think this team has enough potential that you hang on to what you have. In a couple of seasons, we will have a lot of contracts coming off the books and some young players in the wings. We can always reinvent ourselves then rather than hoping for mediocre first round picks to save us.

[DY_nasty]

The bottom half of the NBA is riddled with teams that are terrible much more often than not. They all do basically what you said: get rid of talent and try to get picks so that they might land the player that gets them over the top. However, the teams that do manage the fortune of receiving one of these top tier talents usually only are strong for a short period of time. The conference finals and the finals have been mostly 6-7 teams for years now.

A team like the Bucks may get a guy like Jennings. However, the Bucks are likely going to be in the exact same situation we are: mediocre team with a star or two who can't get over the hump of the top couple of teams in the conference. Just because you get a star doesn't mean you compete.

Meanwhile, the teams that take that strategy are completely irrelevant except for a few days in February and June. One of the reasons why the NBA can often suck is so many teams choose the model of blowing it up for the lottery yet continue to suck. Portland and Seattle are two of the only teams I can think of that have done this effectively, and it took a ton of picks coming their way and amazing luck in the draft to achieve their teams. New Orleans is a perfect example of this type of model that briefly lights only to have the candle put out because the team can't compete with super squads like the Lakers, Mavs, and Celtics. Then those valuable draft picks become free agents, often choosing to leave to be with another team on the cusp that happens to have some cap space because another aging veteran who did the same thing is retiring.

I completely understand why you want us to blow the team up. However, I'd rather be a team that tries to compete than one that goes forward a little bit, blows up, goes forward again, blows up, over and over, hoping to get the one superstar that will turn the franchise into immediate contenders.

Finally, the point about Wallace: he's not a player that draws people initially into the arena. However, his play makes people want to come back after they see him play. People remember him, as I can attest to many conversations I've had with friends who went to their fist games and didn't know anything about the Bobcats. To non-NBA fans, there are only a few guys that draw fans: Bryant, Wade, Lebron, Melo, and maybe Durant and Howard now. The other big names only matter to NBA fans, and those guys-- Nash, Williams, Duncan, and Dirk-- still don't demand that many people attending games. (Of course, a team like Boston who has several stars will bring more people in.) While it would be nice to have a superstar, those are exceedingly rare. In the meantime, Wallace gives us a blue collar talent that can electrify the arena and give Charlotte fans someone to root for.The difference between most of those bottom feeding teams and Portland and Seattle is that they manufactured their own luck. Not only that, but they didn't become short sighted when met with immediate success. Lets talk about two teams real fast. OKC/Seattle and New Orleans. NO was doing an excellent job of building until they made 3 franchise obliterating decisions: Signing Peja, Powe, and trading for Okafor. Those decisions have essentially doomed that franchise. Even though they've got a great player, a solid B in West, and two great young guys in Collison and Thornton, they won't be able to make any progress forward (unless something truly amazing happens). Now, lets take Seattle/OKC. They just took on the defending champs and gave them a great series, if they'd played anyone else in the West, they'd have won. A smart GM will see this and realize that he's still got one of the youngest teams in the league. He'd be patient and allow them to develop together while only making minor additions of additional young talent as long as it doesn't disturb the core of his team. A dumb GM would see ESPN and go "OH SNAPZ Elton and the #2 pick!? Quick, tell Jeff Green and Eric Maynor to clean our their lockers! We'll need to add our own pick to sweeten the deal of course, but its worth baby - all or nothing!" In the next 3 seasons, we'll see how smart the Wizards are now that they've had a successful fire sale and have assembled a decent group of young players. We know how stupid the Sixers have been time and time again...

The league is full of dumb gms and patient gms. Its also got the Lakers and Celtics in it, where all they have to do is make a phone call and top 5 players of their position magically fall out of the sky into their laps.

I think some of you misunderstand me a bit too. I'm not banking on us drafting Avery Bradley, the greatest point guard of the last 10 years. I'd just feel much, much better if we had 3 guys who are young, full of potential, cheap, flexible in our long term plans, and immediately better than Stephen Graham.

[dnbman]

I think some of you misunderstand me a bit too. I'm not banking on us drafting Avery Bradley, the greatest point guard of the last 10 years. I'd just feel much, much better if we had 3 guys who are young, full of potential, cheap, flexible in our long term plans, and immediately better than Stephen Graham.

I don't understand the constant mention of Graham. Of course those guys would probably be better, but we're not getting picks for Graham, so what does it matter? He was a journeyman who happened to be able to contribute.

[DY_nasty]

That's my point. There are only a handful of real contenders, and they're most the same teams, year in and year out.

So, do we lost a whole bunch of seasons for MAYBE a chance to punch through, creating a culture of losing and alienating fans in the process? Or, do we do our best every season and try to make it work?

I think this team has enough potential that you hang on to what you have. In a couple of seasons, we will have a lot of contracts coming off the books and some young players in the wings. We can always reinvent ourselves then rather than hoping for mediocre first round picks to save us.
That might be the biggest maybe since Jamie Lyn Spears told her mom "Maybe I'm pregnant"

To put it in perspective, we got smacked by the guys who got smacked after winning 8 straight playoff games. According to what I've heard so far, for us to be successful, all of the other teams have to NOT get better as well. The Bucks will be better next year. The Magic might make a play for Arenas, in order to drop Wince. Boston won't just magically go away unless they get rid of Pierce, Rondo, and Garnett... Who knows what'll happen in Miami. The Pacers will be healthy. What are we doing again? Oh yeah. Thats right, crossing our fingers.

This team doesn't have 3 years. In 3 years, when contracts are off the books, Crash will be dead unless he somehow transforms into a perimeter players and sees his minutes decrease drastically. Jack will be a shell of himself, and we'll all know if we were right or wrong when it came to UPS, Henderson, DJ, TT, and Lexi - a bunch of guys who have tons of questions that haven't even been allowed to be answered....

[DY_nasty]

I don't understand the constant mention of Graham. Of course those guys would probably be better, but we're not getting picks for Graham, so what does it matter? He was a journeyman who happened to be able to contribute.
The fact that Graham is even on the floor is a testament to the failure of our FO. A guy of his caliber should never be in the game unless at least two players have been shot or paralyzed from the waist down.

I don't want him traded. I want the sight of him playing significant minutes erased from my memory. Every minute he was on the floor was a minute of wasted development for one the young guys. He did NOTHING that someone else couldn't do.

[dnbman]

That might be the biggest maybe since Jamie Lyn Spears told her mom "Maybe I'm pregnant"

Eh? If half the teams in the NBA haven't been able to successfully use this scheme, what makes you so sure it will work for us? So, there's only "maybe" a chance we actually punch through.

As for the three years, that's exactly what I mean. Give this squad a couple of years. If that doesn't work, we then have a chance to start over. But now is not the time to blow up the pieces for draft picks, especially if they're mediocre picks.

As for Graham, he's not great, but he's played his role. If you're a playoff team, you don't want many minutes from him, but he's been a serviceable player for us on the cheap while we find the role players that can get it done for us.

[teej]

The fact that Graham is even on the floor is a testament to the failure of our FO. A guy of his caliber should never be in the game unless at least two players have been shot or paralyzed from the waist down.

I don't want him traded. I want the sight of him playing significant minutes erased from my memory. Every minute he was on the floor was a minute of wasted development for one the young guys. He did NOTHING that someone else couldn't do.

He only played significant minutes when Raja/Flip then Crash were hurt. He had an 11.2 PER. That's the same as DJ, and better than Theo, Hughes, and Hendo. Not to mention he's a defensive specialist, which PER doesn't calculate. That means he was better for us than DJ. He was 5th on the team in True Shooting %, behind TC, Crash, Nazr, and Boris. He had a better ORTG than Jack. He was the 4th least likely to turn the ball over. He was the 7th most likely to grab a rebound. Sorry, but he was very valuable.

As for your points on Crash, what he is to the casual NBA fan is irrelevant. It's what he is to the casual CHARLOTTE fan. I'm starting to wonder whether you even watch this team in the regular season...

[DY_nasty]

He only played significant minutes when Raja/Flip then Crash were hurt. He had an 11.2 PER. That's the same as DJ, and better than Theo, Hughes, and Hendo. Not to mention he's a defensive specialist, which PER doesn't calculate. That means he was better for us than DJ. He was 5th on the team in True Shooting %, behind TC, Crash, Nazr, and Boris. He had a better ORTG than Jack. He was the 4th least likely to turn the ball over. He was the 7th most likely to grab a rebound. Sorry, but he was very valuable.

As for your points on Crash, what he is to the casual NBA fan is irrelevant. It's what he is to the casual CHARLOTTE fan. I'm starting to wonder whether you even watch this team in the regular season...
I watch too many games if anything. If I had pursued my major in any city other than Charlotte, I'd have jumped right into the business of sports. Seeing how things work first hand... I'd hate to work as an agent, or even for most FOs in any sport. It would kill most real sports fans to see how many things are done.

Playing Stephen Graham is like watering a vase. Even if you put just just a drop into it, its a waste.

[thesnowman22]

Dynasty I respect your opinion, but If this franchise goes backwards now, it could be done. We need to try to get to the second round. Yep. That may not be enough for you, but to risk several 55-60 loss years to MAYBE win big is just not smart in any way. We gonna have to agree to disagree. If God came down and GUARANTEED an NBA title in 5 years? Sure. but short of that happening, Im for trying to improve.

[spectre]

Props to DNB, teej, snow and the rest for supporting our POV very well.

Key to this is patience. As has been said, very few teams have went thru the tanking stage successfully, and the obvious key to that is having a very smart GM. Both Portland and OKC have GMs that don't get taken in trades and they have either been ingenious or very lucky in the draft. Our FO has demonstrated none of these characteristics.

As I've alluded to in another thread...the main thing the top winning teams in this year's playoffs is their willingness to spend money. I'm not saying that's the sole thing (see NY in year's past), but that is certainly a prime point. Our problem is to get competitive we made some risky moves and took on bad contracts. Until those are gone there's no point in discussing blowing anything up.

[Ampsportsduo]

Whoa Whoa Whoa... how did a Grizzlies thread take this ugly turn?

The desire to win a championship is noble. It's what all fracnshises aspire to win, but is it a reasonable goal? Most years, no.

I believe it was dnbman that brought this up, but if I were to offer you an over/under of 8 of the next 10 championships going to a team that had either LeBron, DWade, Carmello, Kobe or Durant on the roster, would you take the under? Because if those guys aren't playing for the Cats it's foolish for the Finals to be the only acceptable level of progress.

Portland continues to be referenced, but they were eliminated in the 1st round and have a max player with potential knee problem. Do people really invision them having prolonged success over the next 5 years? For all the stockpiling of picks they did, if I told you they made 2 WCFs and nothing more would you really be shocked? The Blazers endured 5 years of not making the playoffs and because of one knee, it could all be for not and this is the preferred method?

The NBA may be on the verge of a seismic shift this off-season and already people want to trade for the future with no idea what the landscape will be? We have no draft picks this year (although look for us to get back into the draft late 1st/early 2nd) and potentially no 1st the following. Ride this roster for the next few years and enjoy having a competitive team. Oh, and call New Orleans every day.