Was signing TT for what MJ did stupid?

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Just thought I would gauge some of your opinions on this.

From Bleacher Report..http://bleacherreport.com/articles/420405-2010-nba-free-agency-10-worst-contracts-the-non-lebron-james-version#page/4

[stun704]

No TT's deal is of good value, the writer is a moron

[spectre]

It can certainly end up being stupid.

We can't forget that his prior team couldn't wait to get rid of him, which was what...about 6 months ago? I know they had coaches for crap...but until we lucked into LB we could say the exact same thing (and then some).

[WAM9]

If you look at the signing in a vacuum, it probably is for more than his previous numbers and performance would dictate. With that being said though, each and every signing has to be looked at in relation to the team.

Would it have been a better or worse move to sit back and let the Nets offer him an even bigger contract and us either overpay him more or let him walk for nothing?

Are we a better team with TT or without him?

The writer also said we need to rebuild. I disagree completely. We are still in building mode around Crash and Jack. Adding an athletic guy who has good potential and also showed improvement under Larry Brown was the right thing to do. Would I have loved to have been able to re-sign him for the league minimum? Of course, but that obviously isn't realistic.

Ultimately, I think we made the right decision on Thomas.

[ohara831]

I agree with WAM9 and Spectre. I think ultimately we paid it on what we think he will be for the next few years, not what he has done in the past. So it will be in the upcoming years where people then look at his contract and say the Cats were brilliant or they were crazy. Really just have to wait and see. My gut tells me that it will end up being just about right for what he gives us. If he starts this year, I think it is very likely his play will prove him to be worth his contract.

[TyHill]

Travis Outlaw got a similar contract..and Travis Outlaw isnt near the talent level as TT imo.

[BRNC]

It's a risk...paying for "talent" vs. production is always a risk...

[Black]

2 words: Amir Johnson

[Proudiddy]

I think it was wisely invested... Good value, especially if TT plays like he did to end last year and adds a reliable 15-18 ft. jumper. He has all the tools.

I also think he is misunderstood. Chicago had a lot of internal problems - Del Negro and Paxson, for one... And on top of that, honestly, how many of us knew anything about TT's charitable work/contributions to communities off the court? I'd guess none. B/c we were told what a cocky, brash, money hungry space cadet he is by the media. Also, at the age he made the dunk contest comment, how many us wouldn't have said something similar? I know it wasn't what we wanted to hear, but I'm just saying...

I think he's a better guy than he gets credit for, and him stating his desire to return to Charlotte actually shocked me and gave me a newfound respect for him.

[TyHill]

I think it was wisely invested... Good value, especially if TT plays like he did to end last year and adds a reliable 15-18 ft. jumper. He has all the tools.

I also think he is misunderstood. Chicago had a lot of internal problems - Del Negro and Paxson, for one... And on top of that, honestly, how many of us knew anything about TT's charitable work/contributions to communities off the court? I'd guess none. B/c we were told what a cocky, brash, money hungry space cadet he is by the media. Also, at the age he made the dunk contest comment, how many us wouldn't have said something similar? I know it wasn't what we wanted to hear, but I'm just saying...

I think he's a better guy than he gets credit for, and him stating his desire to return to Charlotte actually shocked me and gave me a newfound respect for him.

A lot of these guys..Tyrus, Flip, Hughes (returned and wanting to return) all seem like they loved it here and I think that speaks a lot for our organization.

[JefDav84]

The article mentioned his production as well saying he scored about 9pts a game. Pretty good for a PF that didn't start

[SWedd523]

The article mentioned his production as well saying he scored about 9pts a game. Pretty good for a PF that didn't start

This. 9/6 for a backup PF (Only played 22 mpg) is pretty good. When you consider the fact that he did it in a slow down system like LB's make them look even better!

I'll post his per36 numbers one more time for emphasis:

17 points
10 rebounds
3 blocks
2 steals
2 assists


And now I'll post Boris' per36 this past year:

12 points
5 rebounds
1 block
1 steal
4 assists

That's right. AND HE GETS PAID MORE THAN TYRUS!! I'd say $8mil per is a very good deal for us.

[GoBobs]

I like that he always seems to raise his level of play in the playoffs. Good signing.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

That whole article felt like it was written by some angry, arrogant, "don't watch basketball, just look at a few stats" writer.

[Black]

bleacher report is nothing but a glorified message board, i don't take anything on there seriously

[teej]

It's called Bleacher Report for a reason.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

This. 9/6 for a backup PF (Only played 22 mpg) is pretty good. When you consider the fact that he did it in a slow down system like LB's make them look even better!

I'll post his per36 numbers one more time for emphasis:

17 points
10 rebounds
3 blocks
2 steals
2 assists


And now I'll post Boris' per36 this past year:

12 points
5 rebounds
1 block
1 steal
4 assists

That's right. AND HE GETS PAID MORE THAN TYRUS!! I'd say $8mil per is a very good deal for us.


Your math is simply wrong. Tyrus' per36 would be 14-15 points a game if he averaged 9 points per 22. NOT 17.

The question is, can Tyrus do it for 35 minutes a night over a full season? Averages tend to slide as a player plays more minutes, AND plays more against starters.

It's really comparing apples to oranges anyway.

Boris is a passer/ballhandler and a big man who can keep the defense honest with an outside shot, thus drawing big defenders out of the lane. And you can plug him into so many slots.

Tyrus is more of a shot-swatter/rebounder--a pure defensive 4-man. But he does very little for offensive spacing.

And we tend to forget that Diaw and Thomas played well together at times. I don't want to lose that--unless we bring in a truly good Center or PG.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

What motivation does Tyrus Thomas have for getting any better now that he has locked up his millions? Let's be honest about human nature.....

[teej]

Your math is simply wrong. Tyrus' per36 would be 14-15 points a game if he averaged 9 points per 22. NOT 17.

The question is, can Tyrus do it for 35 minutes a night over a full season? Averages tend to slide as a player plays more minutes, AND plays more against starters.

It's really comparing apples to oranges anyway.

Boris is a passer/ballhandler and a big man who can keep the defense honest with an outside shot, thus drawing big defenders out of the lane. And you can plug him into so many slots.

Tyrus is more of a shot-swatter/rebounder--a pure defensive 4-man. But he does very little for offensive spacing.

And we tend to forget that Diaw and Thomas played well together at times. I don't want to lose that--unless we bring in a truly good Center or PG.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomaty01.html

You're both right.

Over the entirety of last season, Tyrus' per36 was 15 pts, 10 rbs, 2.5 blks, 1.2 stl, 1 ast.
In Charlotte, his per36 was 16.7 pts, 10.1 rbs, 2.5 blks, 1.5 stl, 1.5 ast

Tyrus and Diaw are two guys who can play well together, as Diaw is an offensive player who's competent on D, and Tyrus is a defensive monster who is more than competent offensively. The problem is neither is big enough to guard the Dwight Howard, Kendrick Perkins, Brook Lopez type centers in the East. They could kill a Bosh/Haslem or Amar'e/Eddy Curry line though.

Tyrus is far and away the better player long-term, and probably deserves to start more now. It just depends on who the center is. If it's Nazr, then Tyrus needs to start to balace it out. If it's a Tyson Chandler type we get somehow, then Boris should continue to start. But please for all things holy don't play both together that much.

EDIT:

Just wanted to add some numbers here. Tyrus had a team low DRTG (measures a player's defensive effectiveness) of 96. No one else was below 100. Boris was next to last with a 105, only DJ Augustin (107) was worse. However, Tyrus' ORTG (offensive effectiveness) was just 98 (Tyson was 107, Theo was 106, only major people lower than TT were Flip, Hendo and Hughes, all at 96). Boris had an ORTG of 107, behind just Crash and Nazr (both 113). WS/48 (the amount of win shares produced by a player per 48 minutes, league average of .100) shows them to be almost equal. Tyrus was at .106, Diaw at .103, which means both are above average. Of major players, only Crash, Nazr, Tyson and Ray were higher than TT, with Theo being between TT and Boris. Tyrus grabbed 17% of all rebounds while he was on the court (higher than Gerald and behind only Nazr, at 18.6%) while Boris had just 8.8%, behind stalwarts such as Gerald Henderson, Stevie Graham, and Vladi Radmanovic. On assists, though, Boris had 19% while on the court (behind only Ray and DJ, at 29.5% and 21.7%, respectively). Tyrus had just 7.8%.

They're two totally different players, though if TT or Boris were 6'11, 270 we'd be set. Too bad TT is 6'11, 220 and Boris is 6'8, 250


What motivation does Tyrus Thomas have for getting any better now that he has locked up his millions? Let's be honest about human nature.....

He wants to prove that he was worth the number 4 pick, and he wants to be an All-Star. Boris is the type who sits and counts his money, Tyrus is like Gerald. All out, all the time. He also likes LB and wants to send a "fuck you" to Chicago. Plus, TT has to sign another contract before he's 30. He wants to lock up his grandkids education.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thomaty01.html

You're both right.

Over the entirety of last season, Tyrus' per36 was 15 pts, 10 rbs, 2.5 blks, 1.2 stl, 1 ast.
In Charlotte, his per36 was 16.7 pts, 10.1 rbs, 2.5 blks, 1.5 stl, 1.5 ast

Tyrus and Diaw are two guys who can play well together, as Diaw is an offensive player who's competent on D, and Tyrus is a defensive monster who is more than competent offensively. The problem is neither is big enough to guard the Dwight Howard, Kendrick Perkins, Brook Lopez type centers in the East. They could kill a Bosh/Haslem or Amar'e/Eddy Curry line though.

Tyrus is far and away the better player long-term, and probably deserves to start more now. It just depends on who the center is. If it's Nazr, then Tyrus needs to start to balace it out. If it's a Tyson Chandler type we get somehow, then Boris should continue to start. But please for all things holy don't play both together that much.

EDIT:

Just wanted to add some numbers here. Tyrus had a team low DRTG (measures a player's defensive effectiveness) of 96. No one else was below 100. Boris was next to last with a 105, only DJ Augustin (107) was worse. However, Tyrus' ORTG (offensive effectiveness) was just 98 (Tyson was 107, Theo was 106, only major people lower than TT were Flip, Hendo and Hughes, all at 96). Boris had an ORTG of 107, behind just Crash and Nazr (both 113). WS/48 (the amount of win shares produced by a player per 48 minutes, league average of .100) shows them to be almost equal. Tyrus was at .106, Diaw at .103, which means both are above average. Of major players, only Crash, Nazr, Tyson and Ray were higher than TT, with Theo being between TT and Boris. Tyrus grabbed 17% of all rebounds while he was on the court (higher than Gerald and behind only Nazr, at 18.6%) while Boris had just 8.8%, behind stalwarts such as Gerald Henderson, Stevie Graham, and Vladi Radmanovic. On assists, though, Boris had 19% while on the court (behind only Ray and DJ, at 29.5% and 21.7%, respectively). Tyrus had just 7.8%.

They're two totally different players, though if TT or Boris were 6'11, 270 we'd be set. Too bad TT is 6'11, 220 and Boris is 6'8, 250



He wants to prove that he was worth the number 4 pick, and he wants to be an All-Star. Boris is the type who sits and counts his money, Tyrus is like Gerald. All out, all the time. He also likes LB and wants to send a "fuck you" to Chicago. Plus, TT has to sign another contract before he's 30. He wants to lock up his grandkids education.

I don't get your following comment:

"But please for all things holy don't play both together that much."

I'm not advocating that they both start, but I saw good things with them on the court together last year. We had success with that smaller lineup in the right situations. When you consider that there are only a few big dominating Centers out there, it makes sense. They complement each other well.

And where is written that TT is 6'11"? He was measured 6'8.25" in shoes at his NBA combine (see draftexpress). Because he has length and hops, it is fair enough to round him up to 6'9" at the most.

Do you know Tyrus personally? How do you know he wants to prove he was worth the pick? How do you know he wants to be an All-Star? How do you know he is like Gerald?

A lot of guys join new teams and get re-born temporarily. Thomas did it for a few months. Boris did it for almost a full season in '08-09. It's highly questionable what either one will do next year.

Thomas still has a very undeveloped low-post game after 4 seasons in the league. That is worrisome. He seems a little off-timed and unbalanced with his back to the basket. At only 6'9" 220, it's quite possible he has a weak low base which contributes to this.

T.T.'s signing is a total gamble. Sure, it could pay off. But we simply don't know. My realistic hope for him is that he will make the all-defensive team some year.

[teej]

I don't get your following comment:

"But please for all things holy don't play both together that much."

I'm not advocating that they both start, but I saw good things with them on the court together last year. We had success with that smaller lineup in the right situations. When you consider that there are only a few big dominating Centers out there, it makes sense. They complement each other well.

I just lost my entire reply, but the gist of what I said is at least 60% of NBA teams throw out at least one big man who can feast on a Diaw/TT front court. Many have two or three bigs, and while it's not horrible in certain situations, every playoff team and most good teams have bigs to toss out.


And where is written that TT is 6'11"? He was measured 6'8.25" in shoes at his NBA combine (see draftexpress). Because he has length and hops, it is fair enough to round him up to 6'9" at the most.

Do you know Tyrus personally? How do you know he wants to prove he was worth the pick? How do you know he wants to be an All-Star? How do you know he is like Gerald?

A lot of guys join new teams and get re-born temporarily. Thomas did it for a few months. Boris did it for almost a full season in '08-09. It's highly questionable what either one will do next year.

Thomas still has a very undeveloped low-post game after 4 seasons in the league. That is worrisome. He seems a little off-timed and unbalanced with his back to the basket. At only 6'9" 220, it's quite possible he has a weak low base which contributes to this.

T.T.'s signing is a total gamble. Sure, it could pay off. But we simply don't know. My realistic hope for him is that he will make the all-defensive team some year.

As far as his height, the NBA and the Bobcats list him as 6'10, and he came into the draft at 19 so he's likely grown. Also, his wingspan is that of a 7 footer. I've seen him at 6'11 in other places but 6'10 is probably the right number.

For his work ethic, I'm going by everything LB, TT and his teammates have said. Boris did look good in 08-09, but he had prior issues with work ethic and effort in Atlanta and Phoenix. Tyrus has never had questions about his effort, just his ability to get along with his coaches, and he and LB seem to be perfect.

He's probably going to be a mix between Ben, Rasheed and Gerald Wallace by the time LB is done, based on his game and comments from everyone.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

I just lost my entire reply, but the gist of what I said is at least 60% of NBA teams throw out at least one big man who can feast on a Diaw/TT front court. Many have two or three bigs, and while it's not horrible in certain situations, every playoff team and most good teams have bigs to toss out.



As far as his height, the NBA and the Bobcats list him as 6'10, and he came into the draft at 19 so he's likely grown. Also, his wingspan is that of a 7 footer. I've seen him at 6'11 in other places but 6'10 is probably the right number.

For his work ethic, I'm going by everything LB, TT and his teammates have said. Boris did look good in 08-09, but he had prior issues with work ethic and effort in Atlanta and Phoenix. Tyrus has never had questions about his effort, just his ability to get along with his coaches, and he and LB seem to be perfect.

He's probably going to be a mix between Ben, Rasheed and Gerald Wallace by the time LB is done, based on his game and comments from everyone.

From what I've seen, most people are done growing in height by the time they are 18-19 years-old. I'm curious who has him listed at 6'11". His wingspan is 7'3" I believe, with a 9'0" standing reach. That wingspan is good for any position. The standing reach is solid for a PF. There's no doubt he can elevate and play big in a vertical sense, but his weight of 220-225 lbs might be part of the reason he struggles to have much of a low post game. Defensively, I like the fact that he can switch out on a SF if he has to.

There's an odd thing about Boris Diaw: People bash his work ethic. They see his stats dip this season or that. And YET, coaches play him big minutes year after year--often on winning teams. He averages 30 minutes a night over 7 seasons. And why is that? Could it be that NBA coaches know a little more than the average Bobcatsplanet poster?

Perhaps I'm partial to Boris because I was like him when I played pick-up ball in my late teens and twenties. I wasn't always going to look for my own shot. I loved to pass. I could guard at least 3 positions. I would occasionally surprise the defense with this little move or that little drive into the lane, or by hitting an occasional outside shot. As one of the taller players on the court, I could pull a big man out of the lane with my guard-like offensive abilities, thus freeing up the middle for my shorter teammates to drive to the bucket. I could rotate well defensively in order to help thwart an opposing drive.

I could see Tyrus being the PF version of Ben Wallace. But Rasheed and Gerald have way more offensive skill than Tyrus EVER will. Like I say, his realistic goal should probably be to make the All-Defensive team one year.

[BlockParty]

Could it be that NBA coaches know a little more than the average Bobcatsplanet poster?


We are still working off the curve that was set when Sam I Am Vincent lowered the knowledge base for the NBA coaches....so it's a push at least for another year or two.

I do have complete confidence in LB utilizing the gifts and talents that Boris brings to the table more effectively than he did last season. In LB's defense, he had 35% of the payroll tied up with one position CENTER..and only 2 people contributing (Nazr & Theo). That complicated things with what to do with the PF position. Additionally, what would we rather have, GW being a beast on the boards? or Boris averaging 7-8 per game? we can't have both..Many times GW got Boris's rebounds via hustle (no surprise).

Heck if they don't change the roster anymore until mid-season...play Boris at PG some (make the other teams adjust to our mismatches, with Boris/Jax/GW/TT/center we are quick enough to stop most teams in transistion via team defense).