Golden State?

[murphman]

Lacob sounded a lot more excited about Lee and Stephen Curry than he did about Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins.
Nothing wrong with that. I wouldn’t presume that these guys will definitely be traded. But it’s also something everybody in the league will be watching.


http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2010/07/28/joe-lacobs-style-and-what-it-means-for-the-future-of-the-warriors/

The Warriors are another team going through an owner change and they have some big contracts on the books that he may want off. There has been tons of rumors that they have been shopping Biedrins and Brandon Wright this offseason and we all know about Monta's history. Golden State also has two seperate trade exceptions totaling 6 million. Plus we have a decent trade relationship with them. I propose this as a backup plan

GS gets:
Damp (13.1 M)
Nazy (6.9 M)
DJ (2.5 M)
Diaw (9 M)
2nd round pick

Total 31.5 million

Bobcats get
Monta Ellis (11 M)
Biedrins (9 M)
B. Wright (3.4 M)
GS uses trade exception (6 M)

Total 29.4 million for trade purposes. Bobcats only take on 23.4 in salary. This shaves the Cats payroll from about 78 million to 70 million and may get them just under the luxury tax.

Starting 5
Ellis/Jax/Crash/TT/Biedrins

Golden State cuts Damp so they save 5 million this season, over 11 million next season and 20 million the folowing two seasons.

[spectre]

What is the breakdown of the trade exceptions? You can't combine them, so you'd need at least one to cover all of DJ's salary in order for this to possibly work.

We'd have to wait til the restriction is off Damp, but we could do:

DJ for the TPE

Damp/Nazr/Boris for Biedrens/Monta/Wright

23,400,000 x 125% + 100k > 29,000,000...so it'll work.

DJ + the difference in the above trade would net us about 8.1 million in savings, so we'd be below the LT.

Monta/Livingston
Jax/Hendo/Carroll
Crash/UPS/McGuire
Tyrus/Najera/Wright
Biedrens/Gana

I could probably live with that. Most likely Hendo, Wright, UPS, Carroll nor McGuire would get much burn because LB would be using the versatility of the main guys at different positions.

[CatNation]

I guess I would do it if nothing else is available. Biggest chucking backcourt in the league lol

[ammofan]

DO IT NOW! I love that deal First of all it basically combines the two teams I use most on NBA 2K....and it boosts the Bobcats scoring while acquiring a decent rbeounding center, great young guard and decent young back up PF. Then after GSW cuts dampier, we can bring him back for cheap.

[spectre]

I guess I would do it if nothing else is available. Biggest chucking backcourt in the league lol

Heh yeah, that's what I was thinking too! Still, if Livingston can stick I was thinking he & Monta be a pretty good pairing. He's more of a shooting guard anyway but he's one hell of a slasher (something I assume Livingston isn't so good at with his injury history).


Then after GSW cuts dampier, we can bring him back for cheap.

I thought of that too. We still would only have the 2.3 left from our MLE...but maybe that'd be enough. We could definitely use him.

[Black]

MAYBE, but I'd like to keep Nazr if possible.

[SWedd523]

With the way they've been shopping both Monta and Beans, there's no way we take on BOTH of Golden State's long term contracts for expirings and a pick. Those two have little trade value right now and I don't understand why we'd simply bail them out again (see Jason Richardson trade).

One of the rules for taking on unwanted, long term contracts is if you get some sort of cheap talent in addition to it. That's why I hated taking JRich and not getting something young in return.

The only way I do a trade with Golden State is:

Part 1
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2cbmzzv (Dampier for Beans and BWright)

Part 2
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=28nhw9n (Boris Diaw and a future First for Stephen Curry and Vlad Rad)

[Chef]

With the way they've been shopping both Monta and Beans, there's no way we take on BOTH of Golden State's long term contracts for expirings and a pick. Those two have little trade value right now and I don't understand why we'd simply bail them out again (see Jason Richardson trade).

One of the rules for taking on unwanted, long term contracts is if you get some sort of cheap talent in addition to it. That's why I hated taking JRich and not getting something young in return.

The only way I do a trade with Golden State is:

Part 1
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2cbmzzv (Dampier for Beans and BWright)

Part 2
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=28nhw9n (Boris Diaw and a future First for Stephen Curry and Vlad Rad)

you have as much a chance at steph curry as we do of getting cp3 without taking mek. what would make the trade better would be no picks going to them or us. switch nazr for diop.

if we don't get cp3 and we are facilitating or doing another deal like this with gs, we need to lose diop, period. at this point losing diop is more important than future picks.

[SWedd523]

I'm aware that we can't get them. I'm making a point that the only way we take albatross contracts is if we get something good for it. The trade I posted had us SENDING a pick though

[BRNC]

Maybe if they send a 1st back...but I think we give up defense bringing Ellis here so I doubt LB would go for the deal...

[dav7z]

This would be less risk than a move for Arenas. A much better over all trade would GS do this? I think SWeed is over valueing our assets but like his thinking.

I would do it over a Arenas deal if GS bit.

[spectre]

Sure the contracts are "long", but they both are only 24/25 years old and they both produce numbers comparable to what they make.

Trying to foist off Diop who pretty much gives NO production would be a non-starter.

Beans' injury history would make me hesitate, but looking at his #s when healthy he rebounds better than Okafor and has a comparable TS%. His eFG% has consistently been better than Okafor's as well. For 9 per I think the contract is irrelevant (again, assuming he can stay healthy).

In regards to Monta I don't think the value is there if the intent is to play him primarily as a PG (LB would kill him)...but if we could make him an offguard for a lot of his mpg teamed with a longer PG like Livingston I think he'd be well worth the money.

[BRNC]

Problem for me spectre is we don't need an off-guard...we need a PG and (agreeing with you) Ellis plays better at SG this is not an upgrade...I like Beans just fine but can do without Ellis...

[K1NGofAKR0N]

do it no hesitation.r there any official rumors on this? were getting young talented guys. thats good. i was actaully thinking of something like this before i got on here and saw it was already posted

[Scottley Crue]

I can't run away from the original deal fast enough. To borrow a phrase from Kenny Smith, I think Monta Ellis is a looter in a riot. Even if he was paired with a taller PG, I just have the feeling he'd get you a bunch of numbers, but they wouldn't ammount to much in the win column.

Beidrens is Ok, but I'm with Swedd on this...if I'm dealing with GS, I want back what he's suggested, namely Curry. Other than that, I'm not sure the Warriors have much to offer that would be best for the 'Cats.

[spectre]

Problem for me spectre is we don't need an off-guard...we need a PG and (agreeing with you) Ellis plays better at SG this is not an upgrade...I like Beans just fine but can do without Ellis...

With Jax's versatility I think we could easily stand another combo. It'd allow us to rest Crash (Jax moves to the 3) & Jax more, and with Jax's ability to distribute (like we'd be relying on him to do if DJ was starting) I don't think it'd be that bad.

Certainly a better scenario than staying status quo and letting Jax distribute for DJ IMO.

Hell, Felton was the primary PG but his role wasn't "distributor" with the team last year. His primary purpose was to get the ball over the line and then hand it to Boris or Jax.

LB might play Hendo more this year, but I doubt he gets serious consistent burn.

[dav7z]

With Jax's versatility I think we could easily stand another combo. It'd allow us to rest Crash (Jax moves to the 3) & Jax more, and with Jax's ability to distribute (like we'd be relying on him to do if DJ was starting) I don't think it'd be that bad.

Certainly a better scenario than staying status quo and letting Jax distribute for DJ IMO.

Hell, Felton was the primary PG but his role wasn't "distributor" with the team last year. His primary purpose was to get the ball over the line and then hand it to Boris or Jax.

LB might play Hendo more this year, but I doubt he gets serious consistent burn.

Im thinking Monta fits well with JAX. What is Montas shooting %

http://www.realgm.com/src_playerfile/1118/monta_ellis/

He shot 45% and averaged 5.3 assist and 25 points per game. I can't see GS trading Beans, But Monta for Damp works

[spectre]

45-47% career. Low 30s from 3.

That 3 % is a negative; with DJ out and Monta in we'd not have a lot of 3 ball threats in the starting group.

I think he did fit pretty well with Jax in GS. Monta's sick driving/finishing should help a lot of guys (mid to high 50s in the paint per nba hotspots).

With an actual system besides "cross the time line and jack it up" I think they'd be even better.

I'm not advocating we do this...but IMO we could do a helluva lot worse.

[CatNation]

even with his massive chucking he still averages less than 1 assist less per game than Felton, and is probably pretty close to Felton in terms of efficiency while scoring twice as much, though I don't have the stats on that. If he bought into our defensive scheme Ellis could be a big upgrade on Felton

[spectre]

Pace is probably the culprit.

Felton is definitely more of a true PG than Ellis, but like I said earlier we haven't really been trying to have a "true" PG.

Be nice to though. If we were ever to get our No. 1 target I doubt any of us would ever want to go back.

[rsxnova]

Monta could give us a much needed scoring boost if he buys in.

[BRNC]

Monta could give us a much needed scoring boost if he buys in.

....a long with little-to-no defense....again...I don't see LB buying into an Ellis trade...just MO...

[Toocool]

Don't see it happening. Ellis really isn't a LB kind of player.

[SWedd523]

....a long with little-to-no defense....again...I don't see LB buying into an Ellis trade...just MO...

Unfounded and untrue.

Let's compare the DRtg's of both Stephen Jackson and Monta Ellis from the time they played together in Golden State. While we're at it, let's compare Monta to some other defensive minded players (Pietrus, Barnes). Keep in mind, lower is better.

2005-06
Monta = 107
Pietrus = 108
Team low = 103 (Foyle)

2006-07
Barnes = 107
Pietrus = 108
Monta = 109
Jack = 110
Team low = 104 (Foyle, Biedrens, O'Byrant)

2007-08
Pietrus = 107
Barnes = 108
Monta = 111
Jack =112
Team low = 103 (O'Bryant

2008-09 Remember, this is the season Monta only played 25 games due to that scooter accident
Monta = 114
Jack = 114
Team low = 107 (Biedrins)


Now let's look at Jack this past year for the Warriors and then the Cats:

Warriors (9 games) = 112
Bobcats (72 games) = 103*

*That's equal to Felts', a guy whom we all hold in high regard as far as defense goes. Jack jumped a whopping 9 points going from a fast paced team to a slow paced team. Why couldn't Monta do the same? In fact, if he were to have an equal 9 point drop, he'd also equal Felt's 103 from this year.


So basically, Monta is an equal-to-better defender than Stephen Jackson. We all think Jack is a good defensive player don't we? Right. So let's not jump the gun on a guy like Monta just because he plays in an uptempo style for a coach who wouldn't know a defensive scheme if it punched him in the face. Defense is more about effort than anything else (evidenced by Tyrus' stellar 96 for us last year), and if he were to put in the work that LB demands, I have full faith that he'd be able to play, at the very least, adequate defense.

[spectre]

To be fair DRTG is heavily influenced by who else is on the court with the player (points scored per 100 possessions while the player is on the court):

http://rotosynthesis.rotowire.com/Rating-a-Player%92s-Efficiency-BBD569.htm


On defense, because DRTG is a team measure it can be unduly influenced by teammates. If a great defender is surrounded by poor defenders his DRTG may be worse (i.e. higher) than others on other teams a comparable ability while a poor defender can get a boost by being in a good system. For instance, in 2007 Kevin Garnett’s DRTG was 101 while the average DRTG of the other four starters was over 110. In 2008 KG got adequate defensive teammates and led the league in DRTG (94), while those same four teammates from Minnesota (Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Trenton Hassell, Mike James) all saw their DRTG rise (average DRTG = 113) once no longer next to Garnett. This was clearly a case where a great defender was being pulled down by weak defensive teammates, and correspondingly he was improving what should have been even worse scores for them. To look at a player individually (and esp. PGs) I'd rather opponents' PER...tho really there's nothing better than the "eye test" in determining a players individual value defensively.

For instance...I still maintain that Tyson Chandler was the best player we've EVER had in defending the P/R. Is there a stat to prove/disprove that?

Monta? I just haven't watched him enough. He is quick as hell with his first step and I assume he at least has average side to side movement. He's got the height (vs PGs), so really the only requirement left is desire.

...which BTW is a HUGE thing. If Monta would buy in with our philosophy I have no doubt he could become a better than average defender.

[Fred Williamson]

even with his massive chucking he still averages less than 1 assist less per game than Felton, and is probably pretty close to Felton in terms of efficiency while scoring twice as much, though I don't have the stats on that. If he bought into our defensive scheme Ellis could be a big upgrade on Felton

Ellis is the most turnover prone player in the league. I don't want him combined with Jax in the backcourt. They would turn the ball over on every 2nd possesion. And keep in mind, we have Boris and Tyrus in the froncourt who also tend to be careless with the ball.

watching them all playing together would be a pain in the ass. Do not want.

[SWedd523]

Ellis is the most turnover prone player in the league. I don't want him combined with Jax in the backcourt. They would turn the ball over on every 2nd possesion. And keep in mind, we have Boris and Tyrus in the froncourt who also tend to be careless with the ball.

watching them all playing together would be a pain in the ass. Do not want.

Notable players who average 4 or more turnovers/48 minutes:

Steve Nash
Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Deron Williams
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Rajon Rondo
Kobe Bryant


Do you not want them either?

[Fred Williamson]

Notable players who average 4 or more turnovers/48 minutes:

Steve Nash
Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Deron Williams
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Rajon Rondo
Kobe Bryant


Do you not want them either?

those guys mentioned are franchise players on contenders, who have defined roles on their teams and got the ball in their hands, most of the time. Monta Ellis is a 6'3" small, high volume chucking shooting guard who plays for one of the worst teams in the league.

Why did you come up with this comparison? This is not even debatable.

[SWedd523]

You didn't say anything about him being good or not. You said he was turnover prone--and used that as a means to say he'd suck here. When, in fact, guys like Steve Nash turn the ball over more.

1. High usage rates = high turnover rates
2. High tempo basketball = high turnover rates
3. Crappy team = more focus on good players (Monta) = high turnover rates

If you don't like him, say it. Don't make up some wacky, hypocritical mess like "he turns the ball over too much so he sucks".

[Fred Williamson]

You didn't say anything about him being good or not. You said he was turnover prone--and used that as a means to say he'd suck here. When, in fact, guys like Steve Nash turn the ball over more.

1. High usage rates = high turnover rates
2. High tempo basketball = high turnover rates
3. Crappy team = more focus on good players (Monta) = high turnover rates

If you don't like him, say it. Don't make up some wacky, hypocritical mess like "he turns the ball over too much so he sucks".


uhm, I've always said I didn't like him. I thought this isn't anything new?

[BlockParty]

If you don't like him, say it. Don't make up some wacky, hypocritical mess like "he turns the ball over too much so he sucks".

LOL...so..does this mean

Dominic McGuire > Monta Ellis's Turnovers?

[teej]

LOL...so..does this mean

Dominic McGuire > Monta Ellis's Turnovers?

It might. But first we have to figure out who the fuck Dominic McGuire is.

[Toocool]

It might. But first we have to figure out who the fuck Dominic McGuire is.

Dominic McGuire is on this team? And he's an actual person? Wow...

[SWedd523]

LOL...so..does this mean

Dominic McGuire > Monta Ellis's Turnovers?

I couldn't even tell you who the fuck that other guy is. Is he related to Lizzy?

[x2pacalypse]

i think i figured out who dominic mcguire is

http://images.digitalmedianet.com/2006/Week_25/w3egjciw/story/jerry%20maguire.jpg
+
http://www.coltsgab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/dominic-rhodes.jpg