Bobcats almost acquired Calderon....again

[ammofan]

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/68654/20100812/bobcats_tried_to_land_jose_calderon/


Bobcats Get: Jose
Raptors Get: TJ Ford
Pacers Get: Erick Dampier

Wish it would've happened....it would have been part of that 4 team deal from yesterday. Good to hear that MJ/Rod/Larry are still making calls. I would bet that Jose is a Bobcat at some point. This is 2 times we have tried to get him.

[Plowright]

Yer, i saw this posted by David Aldridge aswell. Would have been good, i just can't find anywhere why it didnt happen, any ideas?

[BETCATS]

After MJ said no to a better deal that would have rid us of the cancer that is Diaw and Tyson's contract, if he got Calderon now for anything more than DJ and Diop he is a fucking idiot. Im sorry but harsh reality calls for the use of harsh words. Instead of getting rid of Diaw/Tyson for Jose and i think Marcus Banks(?) plus getting the Toronto trade exception, Micheal traded Tyson for Erica and 2 bad contracts. If he is now retracing his footsteps as opposed to making a better deal he is much stupider than i thought. Just when i thought he was taking the team in the right direction, he goes after a guy who is paid more than Raymond but might not do as well as Raymond did in our system.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm:

[Brown'sTown]

I don't get why we're in hot pursuit of Calderon. He isn't that good and he's horribly over paid. The CBA is about to expire and we're gonna be stuck with another enormous contract for a mediocre player and the cap is going to drop a good bit. If we can't move Dampier's contract for a stud on a team that's for sale or being rebuilt then just cutting him and saving the cash is a better move at this point. Otherwise, like BETCATS said, we'd basically be pulling off more-or-less the same deal we rejected except we don't move Boris' contract. Honestly, I'd rather let DJ and Livingston dog it out and maybe be in the lotto. Calderon would just be another step to keeping us trapped above the cap and lacking talent. I hope MJ realizes now that his "not building through the draft but through trades" probably can't get us any farther than we got last season. We need to draft some serious talent. We've made some solid moves for role players or what should be a secondary scorer(Jack, J-Rich), but a lot of our moves are just for overpaid low to medium impact guys that lessen our cap flexibility. If we want a real go to guy we're probably gonna have to draft him.

[CatNation]

I'd rather have TJ Ford than Jose, as depressing a thought that is

[ND22]

This would have been dumb. If we're going after a PG, go after Monta Ellis or Devin Harris, not Jose. If MJ wanted Jose he should have done it with the first offer.

But to not be all negative I agree with you ammo, at least they're still trying to get a deal done.

I'd say the deal didn't go down though because Toronto realized they had TJ Ford once already, and he did jack shit for them.

[ND22]

I'd rather have TJ Ford than Jose, as depressing a thought that is

I'd rather have the combo of DJ/Livingston then Ford. At least those two still have upside, TJ has peaked.

[Plowright]

If we're going after a PG, go after Monta Ellis or Devin Harris, not Jose.

What if they have inquired and Devin Harris is not available? Perhaps Jose is the best pg who is attainable with our assets. Did you ever think of that? Or maybe they dont want to trade Devin, would you? A athletic big young pointguard who can shoot. As for Ellis, you thought LB was hard on Ray and DJ as pg just think what he would be like on Monta Ellis who is a sg and only a pg in times of need, he is always shoot first. our Defense would begin to resemble that of the old Golden State team with monta at the 1 and jax at the 2 and we both know that defense was anything but steller.

[Scottley Crue]

What if they have inquired and Devin Harris is not available? Perhaps Jose is the best pg who is attainable with our assets. Did you ever think of that? Or maybe they dont want to trade Devin, would you? A athletic big young pointguard who can shoot. As for Ellis, you thought LB was hard on Ray and DJ as pg just think what he would be like on Monta Ellis who is a sg and only a pg in times of need, he is always shoot first. our Defense would begin to resemble that of the old Golden State team with monta at the 1 and jax at the 2 and we both know that defense was anything but steller.
I think you make a good point that it needs to be greatly considered that the Bobcats probably have inquired about tons of moves. I have no doubt they know what's available to them and perhaps Calderon is the best attainable option. (BTW, I'd be fine with him at PG. I understand why others wouldn't, but I like that he can help bring the offense up...maybe it's better on the whole to be ranked 8-10 in defense and around 15-18 in offense. Just a thought)

Just because a trade goes down and the Bobcats weren't involved doesn't mean efforts weren't made or the front office was out to lunch. Other teams are involved and have agendas, too. It's not as simple as putting something in a trade machine and seeing that it works. I'm sure they will make a move, it's what they do.

[teej]

Why would the Raptors take back TJ Ford? They gift wrapped him away...

[Brown'sTown]

I can't see Calderon improving the offense as much as he hurts our salary situation. I'd rather struggle and maybe find a diamond in the rough with Livingston or DJ. As for how Brown would treat Ellis, I don't think it matters. Brown is gone for sure at the end of the season, so I doubt his coaching style will be taken into consideration when acquiring new players. If that weren't the case I doubt we'd be pursuing Calderon who has the reputation of a suck ass defender, something LB hates. I'd rather have TJ Ford as well, just because everyone is so down on him he'll basically be a short term minimum-or-close-to contract.

[DCW]

I would much rather aquire TJ then Jose, there really isnt a bright side to getting Jose atleast with TJ its 1yr of wtf then 3yrs of wtf were we thinking. If those 2 are our only options at PG i would rather have DJ n Shuan start n try to get a young C.

[spectre]

at least with TJ its 1yr of wtf then 3yrs of wtf were we thinking.

Well said!

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I don't get why we're in hot pursuit of Calderon. He isn't that good and he's horribly over paid. The CBA is about to expire and we're gonna be stuck with another enormous contract for a mediocre player and the cap is going to drop a good bit. If we can't move Dampier's contract for a stud on a team that's for sale or being rebuilt then just cutting him and saving the cash is a better move at this point. Otherwise, like BETCATS said, we'd basically be pulling off more-or-less the same deal we rejected except we don't move Boris' contract. Honestly, I'd rather let DJ and Livingston dog it out and maybe be in the lotto. Calderon would just be another step to keeping us trapped above the cap and lacking talent. I hope MJ realizes now that his "not building through the draft but through trades" probably can't get us any farther than we got last season. We need to draft some serious talent. We've made some solid moves for role players or what should be a secondary scorer(Jack, J-Rich), but a lot of our moves are just for overpaid low to medium impact guys that lessen our cap flexibility. If we want a real go to guy we're probably gonna have to draft him.Bravo!!! Bravo!!! We sure as hell are not going to get much better through trades. It just doesn't seem other teams value our talent very much. They only want our two most valuable players when it comes to giving us anything worth while in return. All one has to look at in regards to knowing how to build a winner is look at how Portland and OKC have improved to be solid contenders.

If we really want to be set for a long run at being a top seed in the East that competes for titles we need to have really good talent evaluators drafting stars and solid roll players.

Personally I would rather see our team become competitors with it's own drafted talent than try to luck out like Boston and now Miami has. That is more of a crap shoot than drafting a star in my opinion. Boston did win a title but they made a second appearance in the Finals only to lose. Was getting KG and Ray Allen really all that great? Those two guys along with Paul Pierce have a small window of opportunity when it comes to winning any more titles. On the other hand teams like the Thunder and Trailblazers are set to be challengers for a title for quite a few more years. If they lose some of their homegrown talent they can then try the FA route to remain contenders.

Maybe a healthy mix of drafting and singing FA's is the way to go. I just envy how well Presti has built the Thunder into real contenders by picking the right head coach and drafting amazingly well. The key to the Bobcats being set for a while as a title contending team is to get rid of the garbage currently at GM and look for a much better up grade.

[teej]

Personally I would rather see our team become competitors with it's own drafted talent than try to luck out like Boston and now Miami has. That is more of a crap shoot than drafting a star in my opinion. Boston did win a title but they made a second appearance in the Finals only to lose. Was getting KG and Ray Allen really all that great? Those two guys along with Paul Pierce have a small window of opportunity when it comes to winning any more titles. On the other hand teams like the Thunder and Trailblazers are set to be challengers for a title for quite a few more years. If they lose some of their homegrown talent they can then try the FA route to remain contenders.

First, Boston's window closed when KG was no longer able to jump.

Second, PDX will never win a ring with Paul Allen in charge.

[CatNation]

teams like OKC and Portland are overrated imo. They've both been called future dynasties just because they have a lot of good young players. But good young players doesn't mean they will be elite veterans one day. For every young good player that turns into a beast (Durant, Roy) you get the ones that just never really turn into anything better (Aldridge, Oden, Harden, Green). There will always be a team that goes all in to win a ring NOW and thats why dynasties are so difficult to form/maintain. I'd bet that Portland/OKC don't win titles in the next 10 years.

[bbh2020]

i would bet that calderon is a bobcat before the start of the season. i'm smelling a diaw for calderon trade coming soon.

then see dj and someone else shipped out for a center or back up pf.

that's my prediction anyways.

[SWedd523]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2ey9hhu

That trade actually does work, it fails because it's assuming we have those unguaranteed contracts on the roster (McGuire).



In this case, we could simply cut Damp and try to resign him for whatever we have left under the tax and call it a day.

Calderon/Livingston/Tank
Jack/Henderson/Hammer
Crash/UPS
Tyrus/Evans/Najera
Beans/Nazr/Damp

[rsxnova]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2ey9hhu

That trade actually does work, it fails because it's assuming we have those unguaranteed contracts on the roster (McGuire).



In this case, we could simply cut Damp and try to resign him for whatever we have left under the tax and call it a day.

Calderon/Livingston/Tank
Jack/Henderson/Hammer
Crash/UPS
Tyrus/Evans/Najera
Beans/Nazr/Damp

I want to bring home Monta too if we go after Beans.

[teej]

I want to bring home Monta too if we go after Beans.

What is this, the Charlotte Warriors?

[SWedd523]

What is this, the Charlotte Warriors?

The funny thing about it is that all the players we get from GS get better when they come to town. Even funnier? They get worse when they go to GS.


Seriously though, I'd gladly combine the two rosters and laugh all the way to the championship

[spectre]

The funny thing about it is that all the players we get from GS get better when they come to town. Even funnier? They get worse when they go to GS.


Seriously though, I'd gladly combine the two rosters and laugh all the way to the championship

Maybe if Nelson should try coaching sober once and a while that wouldn't be the case.

I really feel for those guys.

[teej]

Only player in Oakland I want is #30.

[SWedd523]

Just for fun, I combined our team with Golden State:

Stephen Curry/DJ Augustin/Shaun Livingston
Stephen Jackson/Gerald Henderson
Gerald Wallace/Reggie Williams/Derrick Brown
David Lee/Tyrus Thomas/Ekpe Udoh
Andris Biedrins/Nazr Mohammed


That's one heck of a team on a $67mil payroll. Makes me wonder what other combinations would be good and under the tax :g:

[ND22]

What if they have inquired and Devin Harris is not available? Perhaps Jose is the best pg who is attainable with our assets. Did you ever think of that? Or maybe they dont want to trade Devin, would you? A athletic big young pointguard who can shoot. As for Ellis, you thought LB was hard on Ray and DJ as pg just think what he would be like on Monta Ellis who is a sg and only a pg in times of need, he is always shoot first. our Defense would begin to resemble that of the old Golden State team with monta at the 1 and jax at the 2 and we both know that defense was anything but steller.

You're probably right, I wouldn't trade Devin Harris either. But if he or Monta Ellis aren't available then its just best we stick with what we got, IMO Jose isn't that big of an upgrade. The way I see things, I say we see what DJ and Livingston can do before we make a move, I know everyone has written off DJ as a starter but he's still only 2 years into the league, and Livingston showed at the end of last season he can still ball when healthy.

[LiquidWayno]

Agreed - DJ might flourish as a starter. Shaun may play better than ever, we actually believed in him when other teams didn't.

[dvdbumpus]

WTF is with Calderon's contract?? Why would we ever think of that? Why do we want that bum's mediocrity?

[ammofan]

WTF is with Calderon's contract?? Why would we ever think of that? Why do we want that bum's mediocrity?

Because we want to be better. Calderon can be a very good pg given the right circumstances and Charlotte could be one of those circmstances. I would rather give Jose 9 million a year than Boris.

[dvdbumpus]

Because we want to be better. Calderon can be a very good pg given the right circumstances and Charlotte could be one of those circmstances. I would rather give Jose 9 million a year than Boris.

The trade as I heard it involved Dampier's contract as the trade chip. Even worse, I heard the trade was to send Dampier's contract to Indiana, and we end up with T.J. Ford. AHHHHH!!

My problem with acquiring Calderon is he's not much of an upgrade, if any. He's already declining and he isn't a winner, let alone a defender, scorer, or having the "it" factor needed of a point. We may as well kept Felton. On top of that, he'd just add to our salary cap hell. Can we just grab Jarrett Jack instead?

[BIGCatBobcat]

I'd rather have the combo of DJ/Livingston then Ford. At least those two still have upside, TJ has peaked.

Every time somebody mentions TJ Ford I immediately think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMCMlNyySvo

[Ampsportsduo]

Not buying a lot of these "scouting" reports on Calderon. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think this many Cat fans were checking out a lot of Toronto games. I suspect there's quite a bit of box score scouting going on.

Let's look at the their team last year. Turkeyglue and Bosh were mentally checked out for half the season, two SGs with zero 3-point shot, a center with zero post presence, and Jose's playing time was being jerked around because they decided to bring in Jarrett Jack. It's not hard to see why he didn't have a banner year.

The Cats need a shooter. Calderon can drain 3's from all over the place. The team needs a guard that can be a caretaker and dish. He can do that. Can he defend? Not exceptionally well, but neither can anyone on the roster at the PG position.

I'm not saying that Calderon = ECFs, but I do believe people are selling him short. Is his contract a concern? Yes. That's a valid point, but we also have to ask ourselves what we think the arc for this team will be. Try to continue making a push to get to the playoffs with our "core" in tact and be content? If so, Calderon helps. If we don't want the team to take on more contracts for marginal improvement, it may be time to shut it down and start selling off parts. I don't see much middle ground.

[DY_nasty]

Not buying a lot of these "scouting" reports on Calderon. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think this many Cat fans were checking out a lot of Toronto games. I suspect there's quite a bit of box score scouting going on.

Let's look at the their team last year. Turkeyglue and Bosh were mentally checked out for half the season, two SGs with zero 3-point shot, a center with zero post presence, and Jose's playing time was being jerked around because they decided to bring in Jarrett Jack. It's not hard to see why he didn't have a banner year.

The Cats need a shooter. Calderon can drain 3's from all over the place. The team needs a guard that can be a caretaker and dish. He can do that. Can he defend? Not exceptionally well, but neither can anyone on the roster at the PG position.

I'm not saying that Calderon = ECFs, but I do believe people are selling him short. Is his contract a concern? Yes. That's a valid point, but we also have to ask ourselves what we think the arc for this team will be. Try to continue making a push to get to the playoffs with our "core" in tact and be content? If so, Calderon helps. If we don't want the team to take on more contracts for marginal improvement, it may be time to shut it down and start selling off parts. I don't see much middle ground.
+1

People keep trying to attack him for his defense but the guy was playing hurt for most of they year AND had one of the worst team defenses of all time behind. On offense, there are very, very few point guards that are more efficient with the ball than Calderon. What were our biggest problems last year? Shooting and offensive efficiency - Calderon is one of the best in the league at both. If we drop from best in the NBA defensively to merely top 10 (because one player never made or broke a good defense - Orlando is still one of hell of a good defensive team with DPoY Howard off the court) but manage to move up from being one of the 3 worst teams in the league on offense, then we're winning a lot more games. Yeah, the contract is bad, but you gotta spend money to make money.

[SWedd523]

Need the PG to shoot? Put DJ in the game.
Need the PG to distribute? Put Livingston in the game.

Need both? Play them together. It worked well with Ray, it'll work well now. What's really happening is that people are selling DJ short. Let the kid play. There is absolutely no need to lock $27 million into a contract when he a) can't keep a starting spot and b) Can't stay healthy?


For that matter, why are we even assuming Jose becomes our best shooter and can "drain 3's from all over the place"?

The most 3's Jose's ever drained in a season? 82
The most 3's Augustin had his rookie year? 108

The highest 3P% of Jose's career? .429
Augustin's Rookie 3P%? .439

[DCW]

I think DJ could suprise alot of people this yr as a starter an i think our biggest issue is the C postion. That is where we should look to upgrade.

[DY_nasty]

Need the PG to shoot? Put DJ in the game.
Need the PG to distribute? Put Livingston in the game.

Need both? Play them together. It worked well with Ray, it'll work well now. What's really happening is that people are selling DJ short. Let the kid play. There is absolutely no need to lock $27 million into a contract when he a) can't keep a starting spot and b) Can't stay healthy?


For that matter, why are we even assuming Jose becomes our best shooter and can "drain 3's from all over the place"?

The most 3's Jose's ever drained in a season? 82
The most 3's Augustin had his rookie year? 108

The highest 3P% of Jose's career? .429
Augustin's Rookie 3P%? .439
If you're going to post stats, be sure to include Jose's insane assist to turnover ratio.

Not disagreeing about DJ though. I'd like to see him get a chance before we throw him (and see him flourish elsewhere).

[SWedd523]

I never said Jose wasn't a good passer. Just that DJ and Shaun can make up for whatever Jose brings to the table while also saving us a ton of money. There's no need to get nervous and make some deal for a bad contract just so we can make a marginal improvement.


With that said, I'll gladly Trade Boris and Diop for Jose and Evans.

[Ampsportsduo]

Need the PG to shoot? Put DJ in the game.
Need the PG to distribute? Put Livingston in the game.

Need both? Play them together. It worked well with Ray, it'll work well now. What's really happening is that people are selling DJ short. Let the kid play. There is absolutely no need to lock $27 million into a contract when he a) can't keep a starting spot and b) Can't stay healthy?


For that matter, why are we even assuming Jose becomes our best shooter and can "drain 3's from all over the place"?

The most 3's Jose's ever drained in a season? 82
The most 3's Augustin had his rookie year? 108

The highest 3P% of Jose's career? .429
Augustin's Rookie 3P%? .439

Play them together? If the suggested answer to having a more complete PG is to play two defensive liabilities on the court at the same time, it proves my point.

When you say "it worked well with Ray" how well did it really work? The team was able to tread water, but sustainable success would not be reasonable to expect.

I would love to hope that DJ has made the necessary improvements to be a viable starter this season, but based on the FO's apparent desire to bring in a starting caliber PG I can't. His game has many limitations and while Calderon's does too, I believe Calderon would be able to make the other players on the court better in a way that DJ can't. Their shots are comparable, but Calderon's much better when it comes to penetrating to the hoop. Where too often we've seen DJ get stuck in no man's land with no ability to attack or create, Jose has both the ability to finish at the rim and a creativity in his passing that DJ lacks. Is it worth taking on the contract? I again refer to my earlier question:


we also have to ask ourselves what we think the arc for this team will be. Try to continue making a push to get to the playoffs with our "core" in tact and be content? If so, Calderon helps. If we don't want the team to take on more contracts for marginal improvement, it may be time to shut it down and start selling off parts. I don't see much middle ground.

[SWedd523]

Play them together? If the suggested answer to having a more complete PG is to play two defensive liabilities on the court at the same time, it proves my point.

Again, DJ is a better shooter than Jose and Shaun is at least a comparable passer. They wouldn't start together obviously, but they CAN play together in spot minutes due to Shaun's height and ability to check PGs.

You want to replace DJ and Shaun (since they're defensive liabilities) with an even WORSE defensive liability? Doesn't make sense. Jose's highest DRtg of his career was 108, Shaun's career average is 107. And that's with him playing subpar ball while recovering from injury.



When you say "it worked well with Ray" how well did it really work? The team was able to tread water, but sustainable success would not be reasonable to expect.

Well enough that when DJ started, he averaged 17 and 6. I'll take that if it saves us $27mil on Jose.

I would love to hope that DJ has made the necessary improvements to be a viable starter this season, but based on the FO's apparent desire to bring in a starting caliber PG I can't. His game has many limitations and while Calderon's does too, I believe Calderon would be able to make the other players on the court better in a way that DJ can't. Their shots are comparable, but Calderon's much better when it comes to penetrating to the hoop. Where too often we've seen DJ get stuck in no man's land with no ability to attack or create, Jose has both the ability to finish at the rim and a creativity in his passing that DJ lacks. Is it worth taking on the contract? I again refer to my earlier question:[/QUOTE]

No, it isn't.

[Ampsportsduo]

Again, DJ is a better shooter than Jose and Shaun is at least a comparable passer. They wouldn't start together obviously, but they CAN play together in spot minutes due to Shaun's height and ability to check PGs.

You want to replace DJ and Shaun (since they're defensive liabilities) with an even WORSE defensive liability? Doesn't make sense. Jose's highest DRtg of his career was 108, Shaun's career average is 107. And that's with him playing subpar ball while recovering from injury.

I would prefer to have one defensive liability on the court rather than having two. I would prefer to have a PG that can be a playmaker for the other guys and be able to knock down an open three. Shaun and DJ can only do one or the other.


Well enough that when DJ started, he averaged 17 and 6. I'll take that if it saves us $27mil on Jose.

I'm not crazy about the salary either. Trust me, but if its the FO's objective to try to get back to the playoffs and continue trying to grow the fan base with marginal success Calderon make sense.

I don't care what DJ's individual stats were, it was a gimmick that would not be sustainable.

[CatNation]

DJ was very good rookie year and very bad last year. Doesn't make sense at all to trade him now. Right now he is at his lowest possible trade value. Buying high and selling low is just gonna keep us locked in mediocrity even longer. Give the kid a chance.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

teams like OKC and Portland are overrated imo. They've both been called future dynasties just because they have a lot of good young players. But good young players doesn't mean they will be elite veterans one day. For every young good player that turns into a beast (Durant, Roy) you get the ones that just never really turn into anything better (Aldridge, Oden, Harden, Green). There will always be a team that goes all in to win a ring NOW and thats why dynasties are so difficult to form/maintain. I'd bet that Portland/OKC don't win titles in the next 10 years.I'd maybe bet that Portland does not but I would also bet that OKC wins two or three.

[CatNation]

I'd maybe bet that Portland does not but I would also bet that OKC wins two or three.

no chance. Westbrook is overrated as hell and until Durant becomes a complete player, not just a pure scorer, they have no chance. They've also got no bigs.

If they had gotten Tyreke instead of Harden then that'd be a different story :o

[BobCatsFanInTx]

First, Boston's window closed when KG was no longer able to jump.

Second, PDX will never win a ring with Paul Allen in charge.So just what do we have of value to other teams other than Jax and Crash that teams are willing to make a fair trade for? Regardless of the trade FA or draft to make a team successful options, it would seem to me that the way our Bobcats are set up the only real chance to get better is to acquire high draft picks and draft well. I just don' think the so called dust chip is all that valued or our Bobcats would have made a worthwhile trade by now. Dallas was willing to dump Erica without thinking twice about it and getting negligible value in return. You can come up with all the scenarios you guys want but the reality is that Dallas could not find anybody but us willing to take Erica. Teams obviously did not care about the cap flexibility he brings.

So even though I am a big fan of building through the draft as opposed to trades and FA I would be quite alright if our team could get solid and fair value for the players we send in a trade or trades. I don't see that happening. For a team just coming off of a playoff season most of our Bobcats players still seem to be quite undervalued. I could be wrong and hope that I am but I doubt that the Bobcats are ABLE to make a decent trade before the regular season gets underway.

If that is the case we would have to hope that (A) The team plays well and is winning more than losing or (B) In spite of not winning much we have a few players increasing their trade value so as to give us a chance to improve through the trade route.

I would hope for scenario A first but if not I sure as hell hope we have some players we can trade that will keep the season from possibly being a total loss.

[Chef]

no chance. until Durant becomes a complete player, not just a pure scorer, they have no chance. They've also got no bigs.


GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
82 39.5 0.476 0.365 0.900 1.3 6.3 7.6 2.8 1.4 1.0 3.3 2.1 30.1

come on dude, do some homework first. that is a complete player. dude is a stud.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

no chance. Westbrook is overrated as hell and until Durant becomes a complete player, not just a pure scorer, they have no chance. They've also got no bigs.

If they had gotten Tyreke instead of Harden then that'd be a different story :oWe shall see what we shall see but in my way of thinking I would much rather our Bobcats were in OKC's position. By the way if I recall the OKC 8th seed Thunder team without any bigs took the defending champion Lakers to 6 games and came damned close to a 7th game. In fact one could argue that the Lakers vs Thunder match up was more entertaining and compelling the the Finals match up the Lakers had with the Celtics.

I bet you that in a 7 game series between us and OKC last season the Thunder would have won in 5. Just a hunch of coarse but I must admit that I would much rather us have Presti than Higgins and I sure as hell would rather our Bobcats be where the Thunder are as opposed to where our Bobcats CURRENTLY are.

Maybe our Bobcats surprise a lot of us and if that is the case I am thrilled. I just hate having so many questions going into a new season.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

no chance. Westbrook is overrated as hell and until Durant becomes a complete player, not just a pure scorer, they have no chance. They've also got no bigs.

If they had gotten Tyreke instead of Harden then that'd be a different story :o


GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
82 39.5 0.476 0.365 0.900 1.3 6.3 7.6 2.8 1.4 1.0 3.3 2.1 30.1

come on dude, do some homework first. that is a complete player. dude is a stud.Yes Chef he is. On top of that the Thunder team is loaded with young and talented players who make them competitive right now and if some of these young guys never improve the team is still in a much better position for LONG TERM SUCCESS than are our Bobcats. I don't enjoy saying or thinking that but I just call things as I see them be I right or wrong. I hope I am wrong.

The Thunder does not need Tereke and they will do JUST FINE WITH Harden.

Would Tyreke be a better fit? Sure but as I said there are a lot of teams who would be happy to switch most of their players with the Thunder. Harden is young and who knows how much potential he has. What he does give the Thunder for the time being is a solid defensive presence.

[CatNation]

obviously Thunder are way better than us now and probably for the next 10 years but thats not what I was arguing, I'm saying they won't win a title. Durants a nice piece (no he is NOT a complete/elite player YET, his D is mediocre and he doesn't use all the attention he gets from opposing D to create for his teammates. He is no where near LeBron yet in half the aspects of the game), but LeBron and Wade just changed the rules. If other stars follow in their path and start to team (Paul, Melo or whatever), Durant is gonna be left high and dry because nobody is going to OKC. They will not come close to winning a title until they get a legit big. Harden, Green, and Aldrich are good young pieces but theres no potential there.

A good young core doesn't guarantee squat in this league

[Chef]

Durants a nice piece (no he is NOT a complete/elite player YET, his D is mediocre and he doesn't use all the attention he gets from opposing D to create for his teammates. He is no where near LeBron yet in half the aspects of the game),


again you couldn't be more wrong. the scoring champ is not an elite player? you could argue he is more complete than lebron. he has no holes offensively. lebron doesn't have a post game and is not a 3 pt shooter who insists on shooting three's. anyway you just used lebron as the litmus as to whether a player is elite or not. lebron is already a top 25 player ever. at worst, lebron will be compared to magic in the future.

durant is so much more than a nice piece. he is the 4th best player in the league now. and if i was starting a team it would be a hard choice between him and lebron, given lebron just showed that he is ok being robin and just chillin in south beach. durant is a better competitor. with their experience last year, i would put my money on okc over THIS YEARS heat team. aside from the big gay 3 they don't have much. they are going to be really good in the reg season but are going to run out of gas in the playoffs.

[Scottley Crue]

I'm not crazy about the salary either. Trust me, but if its the FO's objective to try to get back to the playoffs and continue trying to grow the fan base with marginal success Calderon make sense.

I think you've hit on the bigger issue here. We just saw the article in the Observer about how new season ticket sales and renewals are the best they've ever been. Winning has brought them in and back in. It's very important for this franchise to consistenly try to put a winning team out on the floor.

Though I too am not crazy about Calderon's contract, I think he'd be a good move to make to continue as a winning team. His defensive abilties are a legit concern, but I think they can be masked somewhat due to the excellent defenders behind him. I know Calderon is the absolute perfect PG solution, but I think he'd prove to be a very nice addition.

[CatNation]

again you couldn't be more wrong. the scoring champ is not an elite player? you could argue he is more complete than lebron. he has no holes offensively. lebron doesn't have a post game and is not a 3 pt shooter who insists on shooting three's. anyway you just used lebron as the litmus as to whether a player is elite or not. lebron is already a top 25 player ever. at worst, lebron will be compared to magic in the future.

durant is so much more than a nice piece. he is the 4th best player in the league now. and if i was starting a team it would be a hard choice between him and lebron, given lebron just showed that he is ok being robin and just chillin in south beach. durant is a better competitor. with their experience last year, i would put my money on okc over THIS YEARS heat team. aside from the big gay 3 they don't have much. they are going to be really good in the reg season but are going to run out of gas in the playoffs.

well agree to disagree I guess, I'm just sick of people crowing Durant as the next GOAT when he hasn't won a playoff series and averages less than 3apg. Somehow he avoids being called a selfish chucker just because he's humble with a quiet personality.

[Woodsy23]

well agree to disagree I guess, I'm just sick of people crowing Durant as the next GOAT when he hasn't won a playoff series and averages less than 3apg. Somehow he avoids being called a selfish chucker just because he's humble with a quiet personality.

a selfish chucker who shoots almost .500% FG? he can come selfishly chuck for the bobcats if he wants i definitely wouldnt be complaining.

[DY_nasty]

well agree to disagree I guess, I'm just sick of people crowing Durant as the next GOAT when he hasn't won a playoff series and averages less than 3apg. Somehow he avoids being called a selfish chucker just because he's humble with a quiet personality.
Well, on the other hand you've got Lebron getting 7-8 assists per game and he's an extremely selfish player.

Shooters gonna shoot

You can't get mad at Reggie Miller for jacking up shots and not getting assists. Why Durant? (Not saying that he's on reggie miller's level or anything like that btw)

That team is built for him to finish plays and score. Westbrook, Harden, Maynor, and Green are facilitators. You are correct in that he can do more, as he gets a bit one dimensional at times, but he's much more skilled than Lebron was at the same age. Besides, OKC played the Lakers better than almost everyone.

[Chef]

Well, on the other hand you've got Lebron getting 7-8 assists per game and he's an extremely selfish player.

Shooters gonna shoot

You can't get mad at Reggie Miller for jacking up shots and not getting assists. Why Durant? (Not saying that he's on reggie miller's level or anything like that btw)

That team is built for him to finish plays and score. Westbrook, Harden, Maynor, and Green are facilitators. You are correct in that he can do more, as he gets a bit one dimensional at times, but he's much more skilled than Lebron was at the same age. Besides, OKC played the Lakers better than almost everyone.

he is also only in his 3rd year and just turned 21. he was put on this planet to score the basketball. he doesn't need to get assists. i would be happy feeding him the ball and getting out of the way all day.

[CatNation]

Well, on the other hand you've got Lebron getting 7-8 assists per game and he's an extremely selfish player.

Shooters gonna shoot

You can't get mad at Reggie Miller for jacking up shots and not getting assists. Why Durant? (Not saying that he's on reggie miller's level or anything like that btw)

That team is built for him to finish plays and score. Westbrook, Harden, Maynor, and Green are facilitators. You are correct in that he can do more, as he gets a bit one dimensional at times, but he's much more skilled than Lebron was at the same age. Besides, OKC played the Lakers better than almost everyone.

Uhh LeBron is not a selfish player he's a 10000000000000000x better distributor and playmaker for teammates than Kevin Durant ever will be and has been since he was 18 years old. LeBron at 21 averaged more rebounds than Durant, twice as many assists, AND more points. Durant is nothing close to LeBron James in terms of talent and its really disgusting to even compare them. You are born with elite court vision, LeBron has it, Durant doesn't and he never will. Scoring is well and good but if you don't use it to set up others you're wasting your talent. LeBron is a once in a century talent, Durant is more of a once in a decade talent. Really guys, I hate LeBron as much as anyone but he is so much better than Durant now and at his age, and even before its really not even a comparison. I don't understand why Durant has this do-no-wrong godly status among NBA fans.

fun fact: Gerald Wallace is a better 3pt shooter than Kevin Durant

[SWedd523]

LeBron isn't a once in a century talent. Especially since the league hasn't even been around for a century and there are at least 10 guys who are better than him. That'd qualify him more as a once in a generation/decade talent.




Just sayin'.

[teej]

LeBron isn't a once in a century talent. Especially since the league hasn't even been around for a century and there are at least 10 guys who are better than him. That'd qualify him more as a once in a generation/decade talent.




Just sayin'.

:owned1:

CN, you're wrong. Please stop embarassing yourself.

[CatNation]

LeBron isn't a once in a century talent. Especially since the league hasn't even been around for a century and there are at least 10 guys who are better than him. That'd qualify him more as a once in a generation/decade talent.




Just sayin'.

LeBron has more raw talent/natural gifts than anyone ever in the sport outside of Shaq

[CatNation]

:owned1:

CN, you're wrong. Please stop embarassing yourself.

No, I'm not wrong because Kevin Durant hasn't done a god damn thing and he's got a legion of ball gaggers that act like he's a top 5 player in the league. Its pathetic really. I thought you guys actually knew something about basketball. I guess I was wrong

[CatNation]

Actually I just realized I'm trying to debate basketball with people that thought we could get Chris Paul for expirings because a guy told them so. Why am I wasting my time...

I'll take the guy that at the same age Durant is now was already leading a team of absolute scrubs to the NBA finals, being a triple double machine, over the 6'9 introverted Gilbert Arenas with no passing ability

[teej]

Actually I just realized I'm trying to debate basketball with people that thought we could get Chris Paul for expirings because a guy told them so. Why am I wasting my time...

I'll take the guy that at the same age Durant is now was already leading a team of absolute scrubs to the NBA finals, being a triple double machine, over the 6'9 introverted Gilbert Arenas with no passing ability

Note that I never once said we would get CP3, and I doubted that from the beginning.

And Lebron still has no ring. I don't see your point.

[CatNation]

Note that I never once said we would get CP3, and I doubted that from the beginning.

And Lebron still has no ring. I don't see your point.

And Durant hasn't been out of the first round. Like I said, the comparison isn't even CLOSE, anyone who thinks Durant is anything near as good as LeBron is a complete moron plain and simple

[teej]

And Durant hasn't been out of the first round. Like I said, the comparison isn't even CLOSE, anyone who thinks Durant is anything near as good as LeBron is a complete moron plain and simple

LeBron has never done anything so special basketball-wise. He's a freak of human nature, one of the strongest and fastest people in the NBA and the best specimen. But he can't perform under pressure, and doesnt want to lead his own team...

[SWedd523]

LeBron has more raw talent/natural gifts than anyone ever in the sport outside of Shaq

MJ, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Oscar, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, and Maravich all laugh in your face for that absolutely ridiculous statement.

[CatNation]

But he can't perform under pressure

you realize Kevin Durant went 5/23 in game 6 of his series, and shot 35% overall while LeBron averaged 30/9/8 on 50% and 40% from 3 in the playoffs and 29/19/10 in his elimination game? Haters gonna hate I guess...I hate LeBron too but I can appreciate true greatness over a chucker like Durant

[BETCATS]

I am just going to assume that CatNation has never seen Durant play, and that is the source of all his misguided hate. Their is a difference between being right and taking a point too far. You sir, have taken a point too far. Lebron is currently the best player in the NBA, but Durant has been in the league less time and has 2 things Lebron doesnt. The mentality of a pure scorer and natural leadership abilites. Lebron proved by signing with Miami and going to WADE's team that he feels winning rings is more important then leading a team to the same purpose. Durant would never do that. Lebron has passed up big shots before, Durant is the one with the ball in big shot situations. They are just such different players with completely different devolpements in their games. It really isnt fair to compare 2 distinctly different types of talent. Plus, Lebron is entering his prime, Durant is nowhere near that stage of his career. The game 6 of Durant proves the point. Durant was distracted by Phil Jackson's comments and did not have the mental toughness needed to stay focused and help his team win. Expierences like that will turn Durant into a winner, but the results have yet to be seen.

I think that was your point, if it was i agree. Their is no need for calling Durant "selfish" and slapping other labels on him. It takes away from your point.

[CatNation]

its nothing about entering prime and what not, he was better at 21 than Durant at 21 and its not even close

[teej]

I think that was your point, if it was i agree. Their is no need for calling Durant "selfish" and slapping other labels on him. It takes away from your point.

Especially since Coach K just asked KD to be MORE selfish.

He's the best player in OKC, so he's going to have to take bad shots. Same as Jack here, just KD is far better.

[Toocool]

Intense arguments. I agree with both sides. KD isn't talented at all.

Now before you start spouting flaming crap, listen to what I have to say. He's 6'10, with no strength. He's tall, got longass arms and is like a stick with legs. However, what made KD good was his hard work ethic, and his scorers mentality. KD in no way is more talented than Lebron. In the future when Lebron declines and KD starts to peak, perhaps KD can surpass Lebron, but until that time, KD isn't as good as Lebron. But like CN said, Lebron is greater than KD.

However, I disagree with CatNation also. KD isn't a solid all round player. He can rebound, score but has low court vision. However, he is very skilled offensive wise, something like a taller, weaker 'Melo. And due to his scoring is what makes him such a good player.

KD is already tearing up the league, but his game isn't complete. When he continues to add to his game, using his height to see over opponents to pass, and bulking up and adding more of a post game, then KD has a chance to surpass Lebron. Until that time, Lebron is the better player.


Also, as for Westbrook being overrated, yes. In a bad system where he can't just dish it off easily to the best scorer who will most likely score, he wouldn't have the inflated stats that he has. He's a good solid player, but his stats only look amazingly good because of who's in his team. I'm not saying he's bad, but him overrated, yes.

[teej]

KD in no way is more talented than Lebron.

Not at all. But he is more skilled.

Let's compare stats from their third years in the league. Last year for KD, 05-06 for LeBron.

Lebron: 28.1 PER, .568 TS% (true shooting), 9.8% TRB (total rebound), 32.8 AST%, 33.6 Usage rate, 115 ORTG, 104 DRTG, .232 Winshares/48. This was LeBron's first season in the playoffs.
KD: 26.2 PER, .607 TS%, 11% TRB, 13.5 AST%, 32% Usage rate, 118 ORTG, 104 DRTG, .238 WS/48. This was Durant's first season in the playoffs.

Oh, and just for fun/for the chucker argument. LeBron's career 3pt % is .329, his best is .351%. Yet he took 387 threes last year. Durant's career 3p% is .361, with a high of .422%. Yet he took 351 threes (a career high by 121). And while some would say LeBron played more, they'd be wrong. Durant played all 82 games, racking up 39.5 MPG. LeBron missed 5 games, playing 76, and played 39 MPG. So in less time, LeBron chucked more.

And since OKC sucks so bad :rolleyes: Durant would have as much right to "chuck" shots as LeBron.

Statistically, outside of assists, Durant is the better player at this point in his career. And at equal points in their careers, LeBron has just 1 more playoff series win that Durant, when he beat the Wizards. And one could argue that the Thunder would've beaten another team, had they not faced the Lakers.

Any more verbal diarrhea?

[DY_nasty]

Uhh LeBron is not a selfish player he's a 10000000000000000x better distributor and playmaker for teammates than Kevin Durant ever will be and has been since he was 18 years old. LeBron at 21 averaged more rebounds than Durant, twice as many assists, AND more points. Durant is nothing close to LeBron James in terms of talent and its really disgusting to even compare them. You are born with elite court vision, LeBron has it, Durant doesn't and he never will. Scoring is well and good but if you don't use it to set up others you're wasting your talent. LeBron is a once in a century talent, Durant is more of a once in a decade talent. Really guys, I hate LeBron as much as anyone but he is so much better than Durant now and at his age, and even before its really not even a comparison. I don't understand why Durant has this do-no-wrong godly status among NBA fans.

fun fact: Gerald Wallace is a better 3pt shooter than Kevin Durant
Guys can rack up 9+ assists a game and still be selfish. Its ball domination. Marbury was a master of it. Tell me when was the last time that the Cavs actually rotated the ball around the perimeter making sure everyone got a touch. Its extremely rare. Even with Durant ending a good majority of the plays in OKC, there's still plenty of touches for everyone unlike LeIso. Another thing is that no one thats joined Lebron has seen their stats go up (other than Delonte, lol)

Also, Gerald being dared to shoot 3s in the corner is not the same as Durant being checked 4 ft outside the arc... cmon man

and lol at KD being less skilled or on par with Lebron. Lebron still has no clue what a mid-range game is and he's 7 years into the league now. All he knows is pull up for a 3 and bull into the lane. He's got bigger and all that, but his actual skillset hasn't evolved since Silas left.

[DY_nasty]

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/olybb/news/story?id=5461937

Team USA says KD is too unselfish, word.

[Toocool]

Not at all. But he is more skilled.

Let's compare stats from their third years in the league. Last year for KD, 05-06 for LeBron.

Lebron: 28.1 PER, .568 TS% (true shooting), 9.8% TRB (total rebound), 32.8 AST%, 33.6 Usage rate, 115 ORTG, 104 DRTG, .232 Winshares/48. This was LeBron's first season in the playoffs.
KD: 26.2 PER, .607 TS%, 11% TRB, 13.5 AST%, 32% Usage rate, 118 ORTG, 104 DRTG, .238 WS/48. This was Durant's first season in the playoffs.

Oh, and just for fun/for the chucker argument. LeBron's career 3pt % is .329, his best is .351%. Yet he took 387 threes last year. Durant's career 3p% is .361, with a high of .422%. Yet he took 351 threes (a career high by 121). And while some would say LeBron played more, they'd be wrong. Durant played all 82 games, racking up 39.5 MPG. LeBron missed 5 games, playing 76, and played 39 MPG. So in less time, LeBron chucked more.

And since OKC sucks so bad :rolleyes: Durant would have as much right to "chuck" shots as LeBron.

Statistically, outside of assists, Durant is the better player at this point in his career. And at equal points in their careers, LeBron has just 1 more playoff series win that Durant, when he beat the Wizards. And one could argue that the Thunder would've beaten another team, had they not faced the Lakers.

Any more verbal diarrhea?


Teej, I value your input, hard work, presence and what you have to say, but you need to step back. Just because someone has a different opinion or idea to you doesn't make their opinions diarrhea or bullcrap (Unless your perhaps Ballwhore or a troll of some kind). People will argue passionately about what they believe is right, which is understandable for others to disagree and state why. But let's not get further from this respectful tone as your starting to borderline downright insult people. I agree with most of what people are saying in opposed to CN, but let's not get out of hand here. He's simply sharing his opinion.

If I'm taking it too seriously...I need to chill out myself :biggrin:. Been ultra serious lately due to a mass of Uni (College for you guys) work.

[SWedd523]

Teej, I value your input, hard work, presence and what you have to say, but you need to step back. Just because someone has a different opinion or idea to you doesn't make their opinions diarrhea or bullcrap (Unless your perhaps Ballwhore or a troll of some kind). People will argue passionately about what they believe is right, which is understandable for others to disagree and state why. But let's not get further from this respectful tone as your starting to borderline downright insult people. I agree with most of what people are saying in opposed to CN, but let's not get out of hand here. He's simply sharing his opinion.

If I'm taking it too seriously...I need to chill out myself :biggrin:. Been ultra serious lately due to a mass of Uni (College for you guys) work.

Did a mod just get tooooooooooooooollllldddddd? :o



Yeah, I think so :g: :biggrin:

[Toocool]

Did a mod just get tooooooooooooooollllldddddd? :o



Yeah, I think so :g: :biggrin:

I call it the iron fist of TooCool. It sits next to the iron foot of justice (my awesome Spartan kick) :biggrin:

[Chef]

you realize Kevin Durant went 5/23 in game 6 of his series, and shot 35% overall while LeBron averaged 30/9/8 on 50% and 40% from 3 in the playoffs and 29/19/10 in his elimination game? Haters gonna hate I guess...I hate LeBron too but I can appreciate true greatness over a chucker like Durant

you realize lebron gave up at the 2 minute mark of game 6 of celtic series. you also realize that lebron knew he was going to the heat during the series and milked that elbow "injury" throwing up a turd of a series. look, lebron at this stage is better than durant no question. i don't think anyone is arguing that. but i challenge to name 5 players who are better than durant. my list is for the nba (skill wise) is kobe, lebron, wade, durant, howard (with howard and durant possibly being switched). how can you call durant a chucker when he is a 50/40/90 guy? so lets say he puts up this line this year 30ppg (50/40/90), 7reb, 4 assists, 1.5 steals, 1 block. he adds 2 assists per game. that is a jordan line.

[Chef]

1.KD isn't talented at all.

2. He's 6'10, with no strength. He's tall, got longass arms and is like a stick with legs. 3.However, what made KD good was his hard work ethic, and his scorers mentality.

4.However, he is very skilled offensive wise, something like a taller, weaker 'Melo.




1. hyperbole should require a license
2. if he is so weak, how is it he can get to rim against anybody in the league? if he is so weak how can he avg 30 ppg as the only double team on OKC?
3. and range to 28 ft, a lethal mid range game and the ability to beat anyone off the dribble and convert
4. his game is nothing like melo's. he's more like a gervin/dr j hybrid

[BETCATS]

It's funny how no one mention's kevin's improving defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qePpnKPzemQ

Since Durant came into the league as a Sonic, he was one of my favorite non-bobcats. After they moved to OKC and i started watching him more, he became my favorite. I can offer my perspective as someone who has watched his NBA growth to give you a semi-fair view on what type of player he is. Durant is not a chucker anymore. When he was a rookie on the Sonics, Kevin would take 30 shots to score 30 points. But Kobe does that too, the only difference is that Kobe does it once and a while, Durant would do it almost every other game.

However, since then Kevin has taken less shots to score more. He still will have ocassional poor shooting nights, but so does Kobe, so does Lebron, so does everyone. Sometimes defenses can make players struggle. Even Jordan had poor shooting nights. His shooting, and more importantly his shot selection, has improved a lot since his Sonic days. The proof is in the pudding, he was scoring champ (beating out Lebron, Kobe, Wade, and Sean May) last year. The areas he needs to work on (or at least what i think he should focus on, as Durant works on his entire game all summer) is his court vision which is not as bad as you all think it is, but is has the most room for improvement. Durant doesnt have as many assists per game because he is not the primary ball handler/play maker that job belongs to Russel Westbrook. Lebron never has had a play maker like Westbrook as a teammate because Lebron likes to be the play maker. That is why real chuckers like Mo Williams, Boobie Gibson, and Delonte West have ran the point while Lebron was a Cav. And as i said earlier, Durant is still not as hardend as he will be. He did let Phil Jackson get in his head, and the entire Laker series he was playing the way Phil Jackson wanted to. Expierences like that (which Durant even admitted that Phil got to him) will make KD stronger. On the same note, Lebron quit on his team this year and in playoff years past has stormed off the court like an angry child. I still think KD has more mental resolve then Lebron for that reason, and for the fact that KD has opted in to OKC while Lebron flew south (and Gloria rode West) to Miami.

To say Durant isnt talented is just idiotic. I am not sure why the use such flawed logic that can be applied to anybody is needed here. Saying "but he is tall and skinny, any tall and skinny person can do that" is just stupid. What the hell are Alexis Ajinca, Johan Petro, or Jemario Davidson doing now? Nothing. And 1 out of those 3 had a strong worth ethic. Durant is a once in a generation talent, Lebron is a once in a generation talent. Wade is a once in a generation talent. Derron Williams is a once in a generation talent. When not injured, Brandon Roy and Chris Paul are a once in a generation talent. Kobe is a once in a generation talent too, but is getting towards the begining of the end of his career. Who will become the face of this generation is very much unknown. Right now Lebron has the advantage but Durant has more potential.

At least that is how i see it.

[CatNation]

Guys can rack up 9+ assists a game and still be selfish. Its ball domination. Marbury was a master of it. Tell me when was the last time that the Cavs actually rotated the ball around the perimeter making sure everyone got a touch. Its extremely rare. Even with Durant ending a good majority of the plays in OKC, there's still plenty of touches for everyone unlike LeIso. Another thing is that no one thats joined Lebron has seen their stats go up (other than Delonte, lol)

Also, Gerald being dared to shoot 3s in the corner is not the same as Durant being checked 4 ft outside the arc... cmon man

and lol at KD being less skilled or on par with Lebron. Lebron still has no clue what a mid-range game is and he's 7 years into the league now. All he knows is pull up for a 3 and bull into the lane. He's got bigger and all that, but his actual skillset hasn't evolved since Silas left.

Kevin Durant's usage percent is ONE percent less than LeBron while LeBron gets 2x as many assists, so your point there is completely invalid. Durant hogs the ball basically as much as James but doesn't have the distribution skill to do anything besides score. If he was a dick or got arrested you'd all be calling him a chucker.

Your mid range jumpshot claim is also false. I think if you look at the stats you'd realize Durant at best hits mid range shots at 1-2% higher than James.

Ya'll have some crazy biases/hatred or something. Your arguments and "points" have no statistical backing at all.

[CatNation]

you realize lebron gave up at the 2 minute mark of game 6 of celtic series. you also realize that lebron knew he was going to the heat during the series and milked that elbow "injury" throwing up a turd of a series. look, lebron at this stage is better than durant no question. i don't think anyone is arguing that. but i challenge to name 5 players who are better than durant. my list is for the nba (skill wise) is kobe, lebron, wade, durant, howard (with howard and durant possibly being switched). how can you call durant a chucker when he is a 50/40/90 guy? so lets say he puts up this line this year 30ppg (50/40/90), 7reb, 4 assists, 1.5 steals, 1 block. he adds 2 assists per game. that is a jordan line.

because he's not. and the rest of your statement is tabloid drama BS that isn't worth acknowledgment.

I'm not sayin Durant sucks, he's just more like a Dirk level talent, while LeBron is more of a Magic level talent. And I don't see Durant winning a ring as the best player on his team ever, he'll be a guy who teams with someone as a sick second option at age 32 or so. Then again, one guy doesn't win a title anyway. If you stuck LeBron OR Durant in where Kobe is on the Lakers they'd win the title too

[Toocool]

1. hyperbole should require a license
2. if he is so weak, how is it he can get to rim against anybody in the league? if he is so weak how can he avg 30 ppg as the only double team on OKC?
3. and range to 28 ft, a lethal mid range game and the ability to beat anyone off the dribble and convert
4. his game is nothing like melo's. he's more like a gervin/dr j hybrid

1. Hyperboles should never require a license, otherwise you take away parts of irony and sarcasm.
2. I can get to the rim easily, and I'm 5'7...maybe if I'm lucky 5'8. So I'm small and short and I play with a lot of guys bigger than me and I don't have that much trouble getting to the rim. Nor am I strong. It's easier for KD because of his length and size.
3. I know the facts, no need to tell me them. I've watched KD play.
4. I said that he reminds me of Melo, I didn't say his gamestyle was like Melo. He reminds me of Melo due to his great offensive skills, something both of them possess. Probably my bad there, should of been more clear.
5. You know why KD said the quote "Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work"? Because the kid wasn't that talented. Talented, yes. Talented Lebron-wise? No. Therefore if you read up on stuff his teammates say about him, he is an amazingly hard worker. He pours in more time in that gym than Sean May spends time eating.

[Plowright]

LOL who started this, its fun to read im just gonna say that i think that Durant will be as good as Lebron, But lets just remember that we aren't going to see the real Lebron in Stats while he is at Miami. So alot of people may be calling Durant better next year while he is just the benefit of the team he is in.

[Chef]

because he's not. and the rest of your statement is tabloid drama BS that isn't worth acknowledgment.

I'm not sayin Durant sucks, he's just more like a Dirk level talent, while LeBron is more of a Magic level talent. And I don't see Durant winning a ring as the best player on his team ever,

watch the final 3 minutes of game 6. watch lebron at about half court after a turnover when he throws both arms up and realizes the Cavs have lost. everyone on his team saw this. this is not what you want to see from you leader. it completely killed them for the last two minutes. he threw in the towel. you would never, ever see a true alpha dog do this.

durant is better than dirk and lebron is probably going to be better than magic when all is said and done. but, lebron has shown a reluctance to really complete his game. he is in his 7th year and still does not have a post game (which would make him absolutely unstoppable, talking 40ppg easy) and still settles for jump shots too much. injury aside, durant could go down as the best pure scorer in nba history. both CAN go down as top 10 guys, but only one can go down as the alpha dog.

[CatNation]

watch the final 3 minutes of game 6. watch lebron at about half court after a turnover when he throws both arms up and realizes the Cavs have lost. everyone on his team saw this. this is not what you want to see from you leader. it completely killed them for the last two minutes. he threw in the towel. you would never, ever see a true alpha dog do this.

durant is better than dirk and lebron is probably going to be better than magic when all is said and done. but, lebron has shown a reluctance to really complete his game. he is in his 7th year and still does not have a post game (which would make him absolutely unstoppable, talking 40ppg easy) and still settles for jump shots too much. injury aside, durant could go down as the best pure scorer in nba history. both CAN go down as top 10 guys, but only one can go down as the alpha dog.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[Ampsportsduo]

This may be the worst argument I've ever seen on BCP (lounge discussions included). You guys are talking about two of the five best players in the NBA with each side trying to make the other guy sound like a tomato can.

The KD hasn't made it out of the 1st round argument is lame, but so is the LeBron hasn't won a ring. We've seen these points made with MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KG and almost every young star coming into the league. We see how all that worked out. OKC has been committed to building through the draft. There is zero doubt that they could've short-circuited potential championship aspirations by signing and trading for vets that would've allowed them to make it further, but that's not their goal.

Durant's the most gifted scorer in the league right now, able to score from anywhere on the court. He's not a chucker. Antoine Walker was a chucker. The list of young studs who come into the league without an appreciation for the importance for defense is as long as my arm, and Durant was no different. He did improve this season, however, especially during that horrible 1st round loss when they pushed the eventual world champion Lakers.

As for James, it's become damn near un-American not to rip him this off-season. He's the best player in the league, regardless of whether or not he's a punk. For any Kobe fans upset with my last comment, trade Kobe to the Cavs and try to convince yourself they win 60+ games. He's got an unparalleled skill set, but does he possess the fire to become a MJ or Kobe like force? That's the question.

Neither has the complete package of some other greats, but they're both phenomenal players.

[Chef]

This may be the worst argument I've ever seen on BCP (lunge discussions included). You guys are talking about two of the five best players in the NA< with each side trying to make the other guy sound like a tomato can.

The KD hasn't made it out of the 1st round argument is lame, but so is the LeBron hasn't won a ring. We've seen these points made with MJ, Shaq, Kobe, KG and almost every young star coming into the league. We see how all that worked out. OKC has been committed to building through the draft. There is zero doubt that they could've short-circuited potential championship aspirations by signing and trading for vets that would've allowed them to make it further, but that's not their goal.

Durant's the most gifted scorer in the league right now, able to score from anywhere on the court. He's not a chucker. Antoine Walker was a chucker. The list of young studs who come into the league without an appreciation for the importance for defense is as long as my arm, and Durant was no different. He did improve this season, however, especially during that horrible 1st round loss when the pushed the eventual world champion Lakers.

As for James, it's become damn near un-American not to rip him this off-season. He's the best player in the league, regardless of whether or not he's a punk. For any Kobe fans upset with my last comment, trade Kobe to the Cavs and try to convince yourself they win 60+ games. He's got an unparalleled skill set, but does he possess the fire to become a MJ or Kobe like force? That's the question.

Neither has the complete package of some other greats, but they're both phenomenal players.

nice summation. i would argue and i made this opinion before the summer of lebron, due to his absolute lack of a post game and inconsistent 3pt range (considering his # of attempts) kobe is a more complete player than lebron. kobe is as complete of a player that i have seen since jordan. however, lebron is more impressive. kobe only got this way in the last 3 years when he learned to play with his teammates. he never will be, but he is damn close to jordan vintage 96-98.

my argument has never been that lebron isn't number 1 or 2 in the league. i am vehemently defending durants place in the top 5 and based on his potential plus how he has already shown he can improve, his future place which puts him ahead of everyone but lebron. my big thing with lebron (aside from the disaster that was his summer PR campaign) is that he COULD be better than jordan when it is all said and done, but he just showed he isn't built that way. he took himself out of the GOAT conversation before he even entered the sweet years of his prime. color me disappointed.

[DY_nasty]

Kevin Durant's usage percent is ONE percent less than LeBron while LeBron gets 2x as many assists, so your point there is completely invalid. Durant hogs the ball basically as much as James but doesn't have the distribution skill to do anything besides score. If he was a dick or got arrested you'd all be calling him a chucker.

Your mid range jumpshot claim is also false. I think if you look at the stats you'd realize Durant at best hits mid range shots at 1-2% higher than James.

Ya'll have some crazy biases/hatred or something. Your arguments and "points" have no statistical backing at all.
Okay.

So let me get this straight. When you look at actual basketball games, you deduction is that Lebron's midrange game is better than Kevin Durant's? (btw, take a good look at where they measure 'midrange' shots from in that stat)

On top of that, you're going to say that LeIso is the same offense being run as OKC's? Usage rate is one thing, the fact that Cleveland's entire offense was 'give it to Lebron and wait' is entirely different than everyone touching the ball then having Durant finish off a play the majority of the time. One is Lebron before all, the other is KD after everything else.

Just want to clarify before I waste anymore time in this argument.

Edit: wtf @ Lebron being better than Magic and Durant being better than Dirk... ugh

[ammofan]

Alright if I was a mod I would lock this....If you guys want to talk about Durant and Lebron then go talk in the gen. nba forum

[teej]

Alright if I was a mod I would lock this....If you guys want to talk about Durant and Lebron then go talk in the gen. nba forum

I've thought about it. But there's nothing really negative being said towards anyone specific (member-wise).

And toocool, I said anymore verbal diarrhea only because a certain someone said KD had no talent, and there were multiple posts about how "LeBron was far better in his third year." If I came off a bit arrogant, I apologize, but calling the second or third best player in the game untalented is a joke.

[CatNation]

I love how PPG has apparently surpassed everything from MVPs to playoff accomplishments, to defense etc. when it comes to ranking players. I would think Bobcats fans of all people wouldn't blinded by something like who scores the most points.

[teej]

I love how PPG has apparently surpassed everything from MVPs to playoff accomplishments, to defense etc. when it comes to ranking players. I would think Bobcats fans of all people wouldn't blinded by something like who scores the most points.

Read my original post. Please. Thoroughly.

[CatNation]

Nah I'm done with this topic. It's an embarrassment to basketball to call Durant a top 2 player in the league and I won't contribute to it. Adios

[ammofan]

1. Kobe


2. Lebron

[Ampsportsduo]

Nah I'm done with this topic. It's an embarrassment to basketball to call Durant a top 2 player in the league and I won't contribute to it. Adios

That sentiment will grow in the next 2-3 years. I suggest you brace yourself. I also suggest you watch more of his games as he's a delight to see in action.

[teej]

1. Kobe


2. Lebron

I guess these all depend on how you define "the best."

If it's who you would want on your team for one year, Kobe is on top.

If it's who you'd want to build a team around, it's Durant.

I know LeBron is a great player, and the best athlete in sports, but he's not the guy you build a team around if you want to win.

[Toocool]

I've thought about it. But there's nothing really negative being said towards anyone specific (member-wise).

And toocool, I said anymore verbal diarrhea only because a certain someone said KD had no talent, and there were multiple posts about how "LeBron was far better in his third year." If I came off a bit arrogant, I apologize, but calling the second or third best player in the game untalented is a joke.

Understandable, but you still have to realize that people have different opinions. I understand your referring to me when I said KD had no talent, no need to say certain someone, I know who it is :biggrin:. I still stand by my statement, because I believe that it was through his enormous work rate (since highschool) in which he put so many hours in that gym, just working on his game that he became great. He is no great talent, probably with just an average talent level. But it was his hard work that brought him to this level, which is why I quoted his famous quote 'hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work'.

Make no mistake, the kid is a player. 2nd, 3rd best player in the game, no. Not yet, but soon to be I wouldn't be suprised.

As for the Lebron argument, not interested in that.

Teej, you gotta realize that as a mod your an important chap. Your young and thus can be immature at times (like me :biggrin:), but you need to respect people's opinions. Exceptions: Ballwhore
Sure you might think it's pure BS but you gotta respect them and their opinion. There will always be haters, there will always be people going the other way, but saying that their opinions and thoughts are pure crap ain't gonna get you nowhere.

Edit: Just read what I wrote...holy crap I'm so serious now.
Why so serioussssss???
Because of my damn assignments :facepalm:

[teej]

Teej, you gotta realize that as a mod your an important chap. Your young and thus can be immature at times (like me :biggrin:), but you need to respect people's opinions. Exceptions: Ballwhore
Sure you might think it's pure BS but you gotta respect them and their opinion. There will always be haters, there will always be people going the other way, but saying that their opinions and thoughts are pure crap ain't gonna get you nowhere.

A) Thanks mom.

B) I'm one of four staff members on an online forum with about 250 active members in any given month that talks about a game involving a round ball and two buckets. That's not important. Important is being the chief advisor to a Head of State, or CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

C) Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. My opinion is no more valid than CN's, yours, or ballwhore's, but I'm still free to express it.

I know you aren't meaning to be so serious and stiff, but try to remember that this is an internet chat site, basically. It's not that I'm not taking this seriously, but I'm also allowed to speak my mind.

[LiquidWayno]

1. Kobe
2. Durant
Durant surpasses Kobe this season.

[BlockParty]

What we should all really be concerned about is....with Kobe, Lebron and Durant being the top 3 in the league....did this push Dominic McGuire out of the top 5?

[Toocool]

A) Thanks mom.

B) I'm one of four staff members on an online forum with about 250 active members in any given month that talks about a game involving a round ball and two buckets. That's not important. Important is being the chief advisor to a Head of State, or CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

C) Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. My opinion is no more valid than CN's, yours, or ballwhore's, but I'm still free to express it.

I know you aren't meaning to be so serious and stiff, but try to remember that this is an internet chat site, basically. It's not that I'm not taking this seriously, but I'm also allowed to speak my mind.

1. Dumbass son, I'm your father :facepalm:

2. I'm finished with this, I don't give a crap anymore.

[Chef]

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

alright, i thought about it. i probably jumped the gun on durant being better than dirk now. dirk is better now, but if he improves on last season, i'm not so sure that is true going into next season. as for lebron, let me clarify, lebron is no where near magic yet. i said "when it is all said and done" as in when his career is over, barring injury and continuing a modest level of improvement through his prime he will be at least on the level of magic. an iconic player who becomes the prototype of a position and will be a top 10 player of all time. ok, i am also done with this one. but, this was a fun discussion and gave us something to yap about right now.

[x2pacalypse]

what happened to the good ole days when all of us got along? the playoffs did to us what they did to jim mora sr's vocal tone

[dunnlx]

Hilarious :biggrin:


What we should all really be concerned about is....with Kobe, Lebron and Durant being the top 3 in the league....did this push Dominic McGuire out of the top 5?

[ammofan]

1. Kobe
2. Durant
Durant surpasses Kobe this season.

Until Durant wins a ring and hits around 7 game winners during the season...he will not surpass Kobe.

[SWedd523]

again just jumping in to make a little comment/question:


Why do game winners matter? Ray hit like 39 game winners last season yet nobody thinks he's any good.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

I'm not a Kobe hater, but I wouldn't consider him a top 5 player anymore. He's a top 5 scorer in the league, but that's about it (now anyway, not talking about a few years ago). I couldn't imagine him doing more with the Thunder than Durant, more with the Cavs than Lebron, or even more with the Mavs than Dirk.

If I had to rank, I would say:

1. Lebron
2. Wade
3. Durant
4. Howard
5. Dirk
6. CP (If he stays healthy)
7. Kobe

[spectre]

again just jumping in to make a little comment/question:


Why do game winners matter? Ray hit like 39 game winners last season yet nobody thinks he's any good.

:g:He did?

...and I don't think "nobody" feels that way. If we don't fix our PG situation I imagine the "nobody" set might shrink even more.

Not to get in this "fest"...but IMO game winnders should absolutely matter in determining whose "great" or not. Being "clutch" is important (just like failing to stand up when the opportunity presents itself is a negative).

[Fred Williamson]

Durant better than Kobe? What are you guys smoking?

[teej]

Ray hit like 39 game winners last season

:confused:

We won 44 games last year. That'd mean Ray hit a gamewinner in all but 5.

Did you mean in his time in Charlotte?

[ammofan]

Umm anyone can hit a game winner. Anyone can get lucky. But Kobe is undoubtedley great, and gw's are just a added thing to talk about. Ray is a average player who hits gw's and Kobe is one of the best of all time and hits gw's.

Hard to explain on the internet.

[SWedd523]

Hyperbole guys. Is this argument so dumb it's lowering the collective IQ?

[DY_nasty]

:g:He did?

...and I don't think "nobody" feels that way. If we don't fix our PG situation I imagine the "nobody" set might shrink even more.

Not to get in this "fest"...but IMO game winnders should absolutely matter in determining whose "great" or not. Being "clutch" is important (just like failing to stand up when the opportunity presents itself is a negative).
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

I think its pretty funny actually...

But game winning shots are overrated in a sense. Just look at Kobe against the Suns this year. He dropped dagger after dagger on Phoenix in that elimination game, none of those were game winning shots but all were huge momentum changers nonetheless. No real measure for things like that.

[teej]

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Ronald Murray4 4 %1.0005 6 0 1

Can we trade Hendo + DJ for a big and re-sign Flip please?

[BobCatsFanInTx]

because he's not. and the rest of your statement is tabloid drama BS that isn't worth acknowledgment.

I'm not sayin Durant sucks, he's just more like a Dirk level talent, while LeBron is more of a Magic level talent. And I don't see Durant winning a ring as the best player on his team ever, he'll be a guy who teams with someone as a sick second option at age 32 or so. Then again, one guy doesn't win a title anyway. If you stuck LeBron OR Durant in where Kobe is on the Lakers they'd win the title tooMark my words. Within 3 years the OKC Thunder will be in the Finals and will have a good shot and winning it all. Statistics won't mean squat because Durant will prove to be a better leader than Lebron. There are many ways a player can lead a team that statistics can't measure. KD has the intangibles and maturity it seems that Lebron still has not found.

I am sure that the Heat could win a title relatively soon but the real question to be answered is who is seen as the leader of the Heat? Could the egos of such great players used to being "the man," play into the downfall of the Heat? Maybe not but what happens when Lebron finds himself deferring to his teammates more than HE likes. Some would say winning would cure that but I am not so sure.

As far as Kobe is concerned, say what you want about other great players taking in Kobe's place on the Lakers but Kobe has an ability to raise his game when needed unlike any other. The closest to him in that regard would be Dwyane and to me there is a noticeable difference between them. To me Kobe has made the most impossible shots under pressure I have seen since MJ. Kobe in my mind is still the best player in the game today. The gap is closing and it won't be long till another replaces him however.

Meanwhile I think that Presti is building OKC into a real contender and if they are not a Dynasty they will for sure have a long period of being a top seed in the West. Having a solid chance to win it all for an extended period of time is all I as a fan could ask for. I would give anything to have our Bobcats set to be in that position.

Some of us may overvalue KD, fairly value him or undervalue him. None of us will know for sure for at least a couple more years. I for one am glad KD is in the NBA because I myself have enjoyed watching him play.