The PG Comparison Thread

[SWedd523]

Let's compare some numbers for these players as starters:

DJ Augustin................................Raymond Felton
39.1 MPG....................................36.2 MPG
46.3 FG%....................................41.5 FG%
50.0 3PT%..................................32.8 3PT%
87.5 FT%....................................78.7 FT%

17.1 PPG.....................................13.9 PPG
5.9 APG......................................6.7 APG
1.9 TOV......................................2.7 TOV
(3.1 a/t).....................................(2.5 a/t)
2.5 RPG.......................................3.5 RPG
1.1 SPG.......................................1.5 SPG



Again guys, I'd say we're going to be okay. The sample size for DJ is small, but it shouldn't change much. I'll go more in depth when I get back from class. Shaun, Javaris, and advanced stats to come!

[Scottley Crue]

DJ Augustin
(3.1 a/t)

If that number stays the same, I'll be one happy Bobcat fan.

Good idea and good work, SWedd.

[spectre]

Apples to oranges.

The two games DJ started without Felton last year was against Detroit (Stuckey was out) and Minny. In all the other games (which was 2 seasons ago...didn't realize he never started except for those 2) he had Felton beside him and DJ always drew the weaker of the 2 opposing guards (on D & O).

Until DJ has a stretch where he doesn't have another PG beside him AND he has to deal with the starting PGs in the league we just don't know. He doesn't have the history in the NBA to judge.

You're also not touching on things like this:


You can see the subtle-but-clear effort Brown is making to encourage point guard Augustin to be a leader. If Augustin wants to make this his team, it will happen. But that came more naturally to Raymond Felton, a more confident, out-going guy. I wouldn't call Augustin shy, but he's not the sort to force his personality on people.

Brown tried to get that out of him last year and DJ pretty much folded. Will LB let him play like the 2nd half of last season when he's the starting PG or will he continue to try and force him to be the leader?

[spectre]

Are you sure those #s are right?

As a starter last year (2 games) he shot 43.5% & 33.3% from 3. As a starter 2 years ago he shot 43% & 43.9% from 3. How does one get 43.5% & 43% to equal 46.3%?

Unless I'm missing something.

The FT% is skewed too. Last year he shot 78% from the line, but in his 2 starts he went 1 for 1.

[SWedd523]

Are you sure those #s are right?


BR has his career FGs as a starter being 81/175 which comes out to 46.2857%. They have his career 3PTs as 35/70 for 50.0%They have his FTs as being 42/48 for 87.5%

[spectre]

I don't know what BR is, but I pulled those off of NBA.com split stats.

I'm all for giving DJ a chance. We can post stats and try and make them show what we want all day long...but the proof will be on the court. Until he actually shows he can run the team you're going to continually have folks calling him a bust (and worse).

Edit:

Yes I do! Basketball Reference!

[SWedd523]

:p


Figures as soon as I put up the long awaited PG Comparison Thread, we enter talks to acquire the PG who poops on every other PG we've had!




Up next, the Center Comparison Thread--Say hello to Andrew Bogut!

[spectre]

:p


Figures as soon as I put up the long awaited PG Comparison Thread, we enter talks to acquire the PG who poops on every other PG we've had!




Up next, the Center Comparison Thread--Say hello to Andrew Bogut!

:hysterical:

Hey, you should really test this thing...Kwame vs. Dwight!

[BlockParty]

:p

Figures as soon as I put up the long awaited PG Comparison Thread, we enter talks to acquire the PG who poops on every other PG we've had!


If we get Devin Harris....you can have all the credit that your thread pushed the trade into reality...btw...can you start a thread on Panthers Quarterbacks, Linemen, Punter Returners and Defensive Backs?

[dnbman]

DJ is in almost the exact same position Felton was after his first two years. Both guys went on tears during their rookie seasons. Felton was incredible from February to the end of the year. However, both had strange roles their second year which seemed to take them out of their games. As several NBA commentators suggested during his third season, Felton's basketball brain got scrambled a bit. Just last year, his fifth year, did he really seem to start putting it all together, and doing so actually showed a reduction in his points and assist numbers despite clearly playing better basketball. It will be interesting to see how he performs with the Knicks now.

As for DJ, he's in the same situation, though with significantly less talent, than Felton in his third year. He has an estranged relationship with his coach, there are questions about whether he is a true point guard or an undersized shooting guard, and people are wondering if he's starting talent or not.

I had big questions about DJ when we drafted him and still do. However, he had moments that were solid. Suffice to say, I'd live with him fighting with Livingston for the starting job. However, I'd much rather see us acquire a better point guard, especially since we really need to establish some synergy between our players.

[EC123]

Let's compare some numbers for these players as starters:

DJ Augustin................................Raymond Felton
39.1 MPG....................................36.2 MPG
46.3 FG%....................................41.5 FG%
50.0 3PT%..................................32.8 3PT%
87.5 FT%....................................78.7 FT%

17.1 PPG.....................................13.9 PPG
5.9 APG......................................6.7 APG
1.9 TOV......................................2.7 TOV
(3.1 a/t).....................................(2.5 a/t)
2.5 RPG.......................................3.5 RPG
1.1 SPG.......................................1.5 SPG



Again guys, I'd say we're going to be okay. The sample size for DJ is small, but it shouldn't change much. I'll go more in depth when I get back from class. Shaun, Javaris, and advanced stats to come!

Quantify the intangibles (speed, athleticism, leadership, confidence, creativity, toughness, etc) then get back with me.

Anybody can fill up a stat sheet playing off of somebody else.

Stats never tell the entire story...for the 100th time.

[dnbman]

Stats never tell the entire story...for the 100th time.

Most of the regular posters here understand that. However, stats do present an interesting point to START a conversation. I think that was Swedd's only intention.

[dav7z]

DJ is in almost the exact same position Felton was after his first two years. Both guys went on tears during their rookie seasons. Felton was incredible from February to the end of the year. However, both had strange roles their second year which seemed to take them out of their games. As several NBA commentators suggested during his third season, Felton's basketball brain got scrambled a bit. Just last year, his fifth year, did he really seem to start putting it all together, and doing so actually showed a reduction in his points and assist numbers despite clearly playing better basketball. It will be interesting to see how he performs with the Knicks now.

As for DJ, he's in the same situation, though with significantly less talent, than Felton in his third year. He has an estranged relationship with his coach, there are questions about whether he is a true point guard or an undersized shooting guard, and people are wondering if he's starting talent or not.

I had big questions about DJ when we drafted him and still do. However, he had moments that were solid. Suffice to say, I'd live with him fighting with Livingston for the starting job. However, I'd much rather see us acquire a better point guard, especially since we really need to establish some synergy between our players.

Very good post , I compleatly agree with your assessment. Spectre i all so agree about the stats being skewed because in DJs first year most of those starts was beside Felton. What DJ might post as a starter beside Jax can't be determined because his lack of starting.

I all so agree DJ will have have truble starting over Livingston as the team is constructed now.

Sweed does make lots of good points based on stats . And in his attempt hear is to show how he thinks DJ will post better numbers as a starter . Though i don't think he can post those stats . Him starting he should post better starts than last year .

But i personally still think Livingston wins the starting job.

[EC123]

Most of the regular posters here understand that. However, stats do present an interesting point to START a conversation. I think that was Swedd's only intention.

Not if the message is that the stats are equal or better, therefore, the results with either player are likely to be equal. Even if that is not what's "spoken", that's what's inferred, and what the interpretation will be by the "DJ should get his turn here" crowd.

There is a such thing as "best fit", or at least a better fit.

Even if the trade for Harris falls through, I'd still say out of Augustin, Livingston, and Crittenton, Augustin still isn't the best fit for PG on the Bobcats. Livingston, is the 2nd stringer regardless...but if Crittenton shows anything in camp and gets signed, he'll end up being Larry Brown's starter before long, because he's a better fit.

How many of the "DJ should get his turn" folks would bail if that happened, and complain that Larry Brown just "doesn't like DJ", as if Brown made it to the Hall of Fame just by liking and disliking people.

[SWedd523]

Quantify the intangibles (speed, athleticism, leadership, confidence, creativity, toughness, etc) then get back with me.

Anybody can fill up a stat sheet playing off of somebody else.

Stats never tell the entire story...for the 100th time.

(Before I reply, you need to realize two things: 1) This thread is intended for objectivity. Whatever discussion/information is used in this thread is supposed to be black and white. None of that "use your eyes" stuff that can't be proven either way. I love Ray [go look at my member interview] and think he was a fantastic player for us, so I'm not some blind DJ lover. and 2) I'm not going to get into some little ridiculous and petty back and forth. If you wish to degrade to that in this thread, you won't be able to take part in it. I appreciate your position, but you need to come about it in a different way. For example, spectre and I don't agree very often on the PG debate, but we never let it get to the point where we're making little quips at each other.......... except that one time ;) So again, chill out and try and act maturely)



If you insist:


Speed/Athleticism- Raymond has a higher no step vert (29" to 28.5") but DJ has a higher max vert (35" to 33.5"). Raymond has a higher agility score (10.5 to 11.27) though they have nearly identical end to end speed (3.06 to 3.07). I'd say DJ is quicker with the ball though--while also being a better ball handler.

Leadership- Ray has shown to be a good leader, though has taken a back seat to Crash and Jack. He seemed to be a guy the rest of the team liked so I assume he was respected. As for DJ, nobody knows. He's only ever been a backup so it's impossible to tell whether or not he can/will be a good leader. Saying he will is impossible and so is saying he won't.

Confidence- After Ray's second year, it was well known he didn't have high confidence. He had coaches trying to push him to SG and just all around messing with his head. I'm sure he was shook up a bit. As for DJ, what do you know! He's been in the same position. He's had trade rumors being spread around for over a year now and has classic LB messing with his noggin. I'd say after two years in their respective careers, neither has shown more confidence.

Creativity- I don't know if anybody would say either guy is very creative with the ball. Both run the offense in pretty ho-hum ways so nothing fancy is to be expected, especially under LB. I do think DJ is the better ball handler and passer though but that hardly makes him more creative.

Toughness- Ray has shown to be a bull. There's no denying that. One of the great things about Ray is that he'll fight through just about everything. That's fantastic. DJ has shown to be a little more fragile--mostly due to his size, but that's the risk you take on a smaller PG.



What we can see is that Ray has slightly better athleticism across the board and is much tougher (he's tougher than the majority of the league so that's hardly a bash on DJ). He's proven to be a stronger, more durable player as well. However, at equal points in their careers, I don't think there's much of a difference in the two. We have to remember Ray has had a much longer time to adjust to the NBA and that there's usually a bit of an incubation period for PG's.


I hope that will suffice as "getting back to you".

[SWedd523]

And dav, I think DJ's numbers would likely be higher playing next to Jack, just for the fact that he (Jack) is better than Ray and would require more attention from the other team than he (Ray) would.


Bear in mind, though, that I'm not saying DJ is going to be better than Ray ever was. I'm just saying that DJ has the ability and opportunity to post better offensive numbers while being a downgrade on defense. I think we all can agree to that

[spectre]

For example, spectre and I don't agree very often on the PG debate, but we never let it get to the point where we're making little quips at each other.......... except that one time ;) So again, chill out and try and act maturely)

I have no idea what you're talking about...I've pretty much agreed with everything you've said the last couple posts.

You've adopted my version of Caleron's name and seem to have the same opinion as me on him, we seem to have the exact same thoughts on Devin Harris...it's like we're the same guy! :cheers1:

[CatNation]

so stats don't matter...but dozens of irrelevant comparisons to Matt Moore do.

makes sense

[dav7z]

And dav, I think DJ's numbers would likely be higher playing next to Jack, just for the fact that he (Jack) is better than Ray and would require more attention from the other team than he (Ray) would.


Bear in mind, though, that I'm not saying DJ is going to be better than Ray ever was. I'm just saying that DJ has the ability and opportunity to post better offensive numbers while being a downgrade on defense. I think we all can agree to that

I agree,and starting and playing next to JAX his numbers should go up . To me hes has to inprove on two things Felton inproved on last season.

1st Its a must for him to start the play sooner in the play clock . He started plays way to late into the clock last season forceing him to take bad one on one shots. DJ just don't have much ability to create for his self.
2nd Hes going to have to get more of a assist mind set than a scoring mindset. He has abilitys to make good passes but dosen't pass when he needs to. Playing time might cure both problems .


But this thread is about p/gs so i have to bring Livingston back into the mix . How do you think DJ compares to Livingston , I know its hargd to compare those two because of so many factors.
THOUGHTS

[EC123]

(Before I reply, you need to realize two things: 1) This thread is intended for objectivity. Whatever discussion/information is used in this thread is supposed to be black and white. None of that "use your eyes" stuff that can't be proven either way. I love Ray [go look at my member interview] and think he was a fantastic player for us, so I'm not some blind DJ lover. and 2) I'm not going to get into some little ridiculous and petty back and forth. If you wish to degrade to that in this thread, you won't be able to take part in it. I appreciate your position, but you need to come about it in a different way. For example, spectre and I don't agree very often on the PG debate, but we never let it get to the point where we're making little quips at each other.......... except that one time ;) So again, chill out and try and act maturely)



If you insist:


Speed/Athleticism- Raymond has a higher no step vert (29" to 28.5") but DJ has a higher max vert (35" to 33.5"). Raymond has a higher agility score (10.5 to 11.27) though they have nearly identical end to end speed (3.06 to 3.07). I'd say DJ is quicker with the ball though--while also being a better ball handler.

Leadership- Ray has shown to be a good leader, though has taken a back seat to Crash and Jack. He seemed to be a guy the rest of the team liked so I assume he was respected. As for DJ, nobody knows. He's only ever been a backup so it's impossible to tell whether or not he can/will be a good leader. Saying he will is impossible and so is saying he won't.

Confidence- After Ray's second year, it was well known he didn't have high confidence. He had coaches trying to push him to SG and just all around messing with his head. I'm sure he was shook up a bit. As for DJ, what do you know! He's been in the same position. He's had trade rumors being spread around for over a year now and has classic LB messing with his noggin. I'd say after two years in their respective careers, neither has shown more confidence.

Creativity- I don't know if anybody would say either guy is very creative with the ball. Both run the offense in pretty ho-hum ways so nothing fancy is to be expected, especially under LB. I do think DJ is the better ball handler and passer though but that hardly makes him more creative.

Toughness- Ray has shown to be a bull. There's no denying that. One of the great things about Ray is that he'll fight through just about everything. That's fantastic. DJ has shown to be a little more fragile--mostly due to his size, but that's the risk you take on a smaller PG.



What we can see is that Ray has slightly better athleticism across the board and is much tougher (he's tougher than the majority of the league so that's hardly a bash on DJ). He's proven to be a stronger, more durable player as well. However, at equal points in their careers, I don't think there's much of a difference in the two. We have to remember Ray has had a much longer time to adjust to the NBA and that there's usually a bit of an incubation period for PG's.


I hope that will suffice as "getting back to you".

Nice attempt. :biggrin:

[EC123]

so stats don't matter...but dozens of irrelevant comparisons to Matt Moore do.

makes sense

Apparently you can't read.

[CatNation]

I can read just fine. Why do you debate like a 3 year old? Stop being a douche. I wish I could neg you further into the red than I already have.

[EC123]

I can read just fine. Why do you debate like a 3 year old? Stop being a douche. I wish I could neg you further into the red than I already have.

So, it's just "understanding" that you don't do well.

Neg recs? lol Now that's what's childish.

What can I do with a Neg rec besides give you another reason to do it again?

[teej]

What can I do with a Neg rec besides give you another reason to do it again?

It gives sensible members a reason to ignore your immature, moronic and unbecoming posts. If you want to treat people like shit, go join Al Queda, not a forum where most people get along just fine. Grow up or fuck off, your choice.

[Toocool]

It gives sensible members a reason to ignore your immature, moronic and unbecoming posts. If you want to treat people like shit, go join Al Queda, not a forum where most people get along just fine. Grow up or fuck off, your choice.

Snap

10char.

[spectre]

The Charlotte Bobcats Have Trouble Letting Go - Wages of Wins (http://dberri.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/the-charlotte-bobcats-have-trouble-letting-go/)

[SWedd523]

PPG
Ray: 14.8 (highest of career)
DJ: 12.5
Liv: 3.0
Tank: 0.0


AST
Ray: 7.6 (highest of career, highest on team)
DJ: 6.5 (highest on team)
Liv: 1.6
Tank: 0.7


REB
Ray: 4.1 (highest of career)
DJ: 3.4
Liv: 1.4
Tank: 0.0


AST/TOV
DJ: 4.6
Ray: 2.3
Liv: 1.2
Tank: n/a


STL
Ray: 1.6 (highest of career)
DJ: 0.8
Liv: 0.5
Tank: 0.0


TS%
Ray: 57.5 (highest of career)
DJ: 54.8
Liv: 48.2
Tank: 0.0


ORtg
DJ: 119
Ray: 113 (highest of career)
Liv: 84
Tank: 53


DRtg
Ray: 108
Liv: 110
DJ: 111
Tank: 117


Net Rtg
DJ: +8
Ray: +5
Liv: -26
Tank: -64


Win Shares
DJ: 0.8 (highest on team)
Ray: 0.8 (highest on team)
Tank: 0.0
Liv: -0.1

[teej]

PPG

ORtg
DJ: 119
Ray: 113 (highest of career)
Liv: 84
Tank: 53


Holy shit Liv is terrible.