Gerald Henderson and the +/- stat

[ziggy]

I brought this up in the game chat the other night against the Bucks, but I thought that it warranted a little more discussion.

In the first 3 games of this preseason Gerald Henderson has had the best +/- numbers in 2 of the 3 games. In the other game he was 3rd best behind Derrick Brown and Shawn Livingston.

Now I'm clearly not saying that this is proof to start Hendo, play him 42 minutes a game and ship Jax out of town... But I think that just looking at this stat, the Cats seem to play better with him on the floor.

I'm also not a stat junkie, so those that are feel free to rip me a new one on the meaninglessness of these numbers.

But to me it seems to mean something :g:
I'm just not sure what.

The numbers

-vs- Mavericks

D.J. Augustin -21
S. Jackson -20
N. Mohammed -26
G. Wallace -16
B. Diaw -19
T. Thomas +10
G. Henderson +14
S. Livingston +3
D. Brown +2
D. Diop -2

-vs- Pacers

D.J. Augustin -9
S. Jackson -7
N. Mohammed -1
G. Wallace -6
B. Diaw -8
D. Diop -9
T. Thomas +2
D. Brown +11
G. Henderson +5
S. Livingston +7


-vs- Bucks.

S. Jackson -16
D.J. Augustin -1
N. Mohammed -13
G. Wallace -11
B. Diaw -3
T. Thomas -10
S. Livingston -2
G. Henderson +10
D. Brown -2
D. Diop -2

[ammofan]

How is this stat calculated? What's it based on?

[ziggy]

Via Yahoo Answers


The +/- statistics also known as the Lenovo stats on NBA TV, are a way to show the power of teamwork and the best engineered/combination of players on the court for any team. The Lenovo Stat is basically a plus/minus statistic that looks at the point differential when players are both in and out of the game, to see how the team performs with various combinations. Essentially this is calculated by the total amount of points that your team scores while you are on the court, minus the number of points your team gives up during that time. Usually players who play effeciently at both ends and contribute a lot to team defence have good +/- stats because with them on the court the team scores fairly and gets stops at the defensive end.

[Pepperz]

I say give him more mins on the floor. If he keeps it up, give him even more mins. If he digresses, take him off. Sounds pretty simple to me.

[Toocool]

I have a feeling its not only to do with his strong defense, but also when he's playing Nazzy isn't on the court, and more TT is seen. When TT is on the court people are scared of him because he's a defensive beast. So helps Hendo (My theory anyway)

[WAM9]

I like this stat in general and being +29 through 3 games does give a general positive outlook on the way the team plays with Henderson on the floor.

I don't like where Henderson is offensively right now though. He passed on a couple of open jumpers that he really needs to take. With that being said, I think we are definitely good defensively and athleticly with him in and that is where the number is coming from. At worst, he is showing that he is a good rotation player that can help the team when Jack is out. At best, it shows that he is certainly developing and may end up being starter material.

[Mustachio]

I have a feeling its not only to do with his strong defense, but also when he's playing Nazzy isn't on the court, and more TT is seen. When TT is on the court people are scared of him because he's a defensive beast. So helps Hendo (My theory anyway)


its this. The plus minus is so big because you dont have that sack of nothing named Nazr playing. TT comes in they go small and they play suffocating defense. Larry will continue to start Diaw and Nazr because he has a hard on for veterans, but when they arent on the floor the team plays much much better. In my opinion, Jack, Crash, Diaw and Nazr all can be used as trade bait to get better at the 5. and with the exception of Crash, I dont think losing one of those guys hurts us in the least.

[kickazzz2000]

I have a feeling its not only to do with his strong defense, but also when he's playing Nazzy isn't on the court, and more TT is seen. When TT is on the court people are scared of him because he's a defensive beast. So helps Hendo (My theory anyway)

Somebody look at 82games and see what the stats are for combinations including TT and Hendo.

[WAM9]

Somebody look at 82games and see what the stats are for combinations including TT and Hendo.

I bet they are pretty good as those 2 defensively really bring it and are great athletes even by NBA standards.

[Proudiddy]

I never wanted to say it b/c I love Crash, but I've often wondered what if we dealt him for a go-to scorer guy, like a 2 gaurd, if we would really even take a drop by putting UPS in at the 3 and letting him develop. Honestly, I think UPS can end up being the type of player Crash is, and possibly better, because he came in with a better game offensively.

Just a thought.

[SWedd523]

I'm not going to tear you a new one Ziggy, but I will say that the +/- stat is one of the most deceiving and useless stats in the game. It's nothing more than a general way to tell how much the team scores relative to the other during very small (in Hendo's case) sample sizes.

[Pepperz]

I'm not going to tear you a new one Ziggy, but I will say that the +/- stat is one of the most deceiving and useless stats in the game. It's nothing more than a general way to tell how much the team scores relative to the other during very small (in Hendo's case) sample sizes.

But its a sample non the less. We should look into giving him more time and see were he goes from there. In doing so, we can have a better judgement on his game and not just from a +/- perspective but from a visual one as well.

[Scottley Crue]

I'm not too much for the +/- stat when it comes to individuals. All it really tells you what the scoring was like while they were on the floor. It doesn't really offer any insight as to if that individual was the reason why their number was what it was. To me, it's too dependent on the other nine guys on the court. With these "newfangled" stats, I think the PER is the best I know of to look at an individual's worth on the court (perhaps win shares too, if I understood that stat better).

I do think the +/- stat is more useful when looking at groups that play together, though that's also dependent on the group(s) they're facing. But since you put five guys on the floor at once, I'd pay more attention to a specific lineup's +/- than I would just one player's.

All that said, from what I've seen, Hendo is using his athleticism more to his advantage and that'll benefit him playing with a group that LB wants to pressure the ball. That seems to be how LB is using him now. Once Hendo can be a little more reliable on his jumper, he'll earn the PT from LB.

[SWedd523]

But its a sample non the less. We should look into giving him more time and see were he goes from there. In doing so, we can have a better judgement on his game and not just from a +/- perspective but from a visual one as well.
Sure. Any set of numbers is a sample. Hell, they could use his turnover numbers to say he's a better ball handler/passer than DJ, but that doesn't make it true.


The +/- stat depends on too many things for it to be viable. If we played the Wolves, Pistons, Raptors, and other lower tier teams, we'd not only have more wins, but higher numbers across the board. If Hendo went up against Kobe or Wade instead of backup SG's his +/- would be lower. It's a stat better used to determine the rotations that work best for certain players.

Even still, after 3 games into the season, any stat is going to be dubious.

[Pepperz]

Sure. Any set of numbers is a sample. Hell, they could use his turnover numbers to say he's a better ball handler/passer than DJ, but that doesn't make it true.


The +/- stat depends on too many things for it to be viable. If we played the Wolves, Pistons, Raptors, and other lower tier teams, we'd not only have more wins, but higher numbers across the board. If Hendo went up against Kobe or Wade instead of backup SG's his +/- would be lower. It's a stat better used to determine the rotations that work best for certain players.

Even still, after 3 games into the season, any stat is going to be dubious.

But he didnt play the Wolves, Pistons, or Raptors just as he didn't play Kobe or Wade. You can't even compare a turnover numbers to a +/-. They are both measured completely differently. In the small sample that hes on the court, he was able to contribute along with 4 others to a + output. Not once or twice but at least three instances/games. All i'm saying is that we should give him more time on the court. As you can see, we yet to win a game. Something is just not right and we need to figure out a way to better our chances of winning. Am I saying Hendo is the answer? No. But should we look into it on giving him more time even with such a small sample? Yes.

[SWedd523]

Did you even read my post?

[Pepperz]

Did you even read my post?

Can you not understand that you made a statement saying "IF WE PLAYED SO AND SO, THE NUMBERS WILL BE HIGHER/LOWER."? Im not looking at IF statements. Im looking at Hendo played 3 games against Dallas, Indy, and Mil and has had a + effect on the court in THOSE GAMES.

[GoBobs]

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics

+/- is not a good measure of play, because it can be affected by many other variables. For example say Hendo comes in the game and then suddenly DJ goes off and hits 6 threes in a row. Hendo may have had nothing to do with that if he was on the other side of the play but he will get a huge bump in +/-. Same thing if somebody from the other team goes cold and misses a bunch of shots. It might be because Hendo was playing good D or that could be somebody else man and just luck.

Over a large enough sample size these other variables will average out to some degree but the +/- over three games is mostly worthless.

His actual stats look pretty good and I would rate his play a B or maybe B+ but three games is still to early to tell how the year will go for him.

[SWedd523]

I'm using numbers and applying them. That's what you do with stats. You read, assess, and apply. You don't go, "Zomg Hendo is dah +/- champion he's dah greatestttt!!"


By applying the numbers to other teams and situations, one can see that +/- is useless.

[DY_nasty]

Can you not understand that you made a statement saying "IF WE PLAYED SO AND SO, THE NUMBERS WILL BE HIGHER/LOWER."? Im not looking at IF statements. Im looking at Hendo played 3 games against Dallas, Indy, and Mil and has had a + effect on the court in THOSE GAMES.
+/- is deceptive my dude. In some cases it can show you exactly why Drew Gooden is such an awful player, in others it'll blame Kobe for loss after he was the sole driving force on the team.

[Pepperz]

Why is everybody giving me "If this happens....." I dont care about a hypothetical situation. I look at what is/happen. Did DJ go off and hit 6 threes in a row in every one of those games when Gerald was in? All I'm saying that when he was on the court, he had a positive effect. That's FACT. Since he had a positive effect on the game, should we give him more playing time? Yes. We will FIND OUT if that was just an anomaly or if its something that happens regularly.

Where did I ever say "Zomg Hendo is dah +/- champion he's dah greatestttt!!"? You dont seem to get the point that I only said with what little opportunity he had on the court, he had a positive effect. If he goes back to Gerald of last year, sit his ass.

[Chef]

so i guess what we are all saying and can agree on is hendo sucks

[teej]

Since Dallas and Mark Cuban are enthralled with +/-, then we could trade Hendo and Diop for Caron Butler...

[DY_nasty]

Why is everybody giving me "If this happens....." I dont care about a hypothetical situation. I look at what is/happen. Did DJ go off and hit 6 threes in a row in every one of those games when Gerald was in? All I'm saying that when he was on the court, he had a positive effect. That's FACT. Since he had a positive effect on the game, should we give him more playing time? Yes. We will FIND OUT if that was just an anomaly or if its something that happens regularly.

Where did I ever say "Zomg Hendo is dah +/- champion he's dah greatestttt!!"? You dont seem to get the point that I only said with what little opportunity he had on the court, he had a positive effect. If he goes back to Gerald of last year, sit his ass.Look, all I'm saying is that the +/- is a good sign and all and I actually like how he's found ways to contribute on the court this year, but until he stops blatantly throwing the ball away on the perimeter because of a lack of awareness he's fine at where he's at - a few minutes off the bench.

[SWedd523]

How do you know that he, specifically, had a positive impact? Was he on the floor by himself? No. Was he scoring all the points, grabbing all the boards, dishing all the assists, etc.? No. Perhaps Tyrus had such a great impact during Hendo's time that he (Hendo) benefitted just by being out there? Perhaps we were in the middle of a hot streak/run (basketball is a game of runs, you know) that he benefitted from that?

You want something that DID HAPPEN istead of application? Okay. In 2008-09 Kevin Durant had by far the worst +/- on his team (the other starters got drastically better when Thabo or Weaver played in his place) and one of the worst in the ENTIRE LEAGUE. So I guess by your logic, the Thunder should have played Thabo and Weaver over Durant? Whatever.

[WAM9]

I take the number and combine it with the eye test. Watching the games, I feel as though Henderson has been a positive force, especially on the defensive end. When I combine that with the +/- number, I go, yeah, Henderson is playing some decent ball so far and contributing to the team.

He may not have been the player that has scored the points but defense often times leads to offense and the chemistry between any 5 guys you play is very important. Lots of successful teams have that guy who doesn't really show up in the box score so strongly but you can damn sure see that the team performs well when he is in the game. Often, that is not by chance.

Battier is another guy like this. His stats are average but he has a far more profound inpact on the game than just his stats. That intangible thing is often underestimated.

[SWedd523]

I'm not saying Hendo hasn't been playing well, because he has. I'm just saying that the +/- stat isn't a very reliable way to argue his case.


What would work is saying that his defense has been spot on, that he's been playing to his strengths--taking the mid range when it's there, dribbling into the mid range when he's outside, and driving the lane when it's available. That's how he should get his buckets. Hendo deserves more time than he's getting. He's playing at least on par with Jack right now so I have no issue with it.

[Pepperz]

So you go from trying to disprove why he should get more time to agreeing with me and saying he should get more time. I never said "He did EVERYTHING." He has played good defense as you said he has. His jumper is not where we want it to be but his strength has out weigh is weakness ATM.

Wam9 gets what im saying.

[SWedd523]

Reading comprehension. I never once said he wasn't playing well. All I said was that the +/- stat is a useless way of trying to argue his case. If you want to say he's playing good D and picking his spots on offense, then be my guest. But you won't get any agreement by saying his +/- is good

[BIGCatBobcat]

Everybody's a little testy up in here, notice I didn't say testes ballwhore. Anyway, looking on the nba.com stats, our best (+/-) line is G. Wallace S. Livingston T. Thomas G. Henderson D. Brown, only been on the court together for 3 and a half minutes and their number is 6. By contrast the starters, S. Jackson N. Mohammed G. Wallace B. Diaw D. Augustin are -31 and have played the most minutes of course. Also, comparisons sake, the best is the Warriors A. Biedrins D. Wright D. Lee M. Ellis S. Curry, and Dallas's . Kidd D. Nowitzki J. Terry T. Chandler C. Butler with 41 and 35 respectively. I'm gonna look into this, because i really don't understand it.

[BIGCatBobcat]

It seems to be a legit stat, based on all of last season. The only problem is, yeah Lakers are #1 as a group of 5 but memphis is #2, then it goes as you'd suspect. Individuals, ehh, Lebron #1, Dwight, Varajao, Vince Carter then Kobe...not so sure. Then you look at the Bobcats roster's +/- and Doris is the highest, followed by Jackson, Wallace and Felton. But who knows how it'll end up.

[ziggy]

It'll be interesting to see how the +/- stats look after the first 10 games.
If I had to take a guess, I would say that Thomas, UPS and Hendo's will continue to look the best because of the defensive energy that they bring. How much that translates into wins and losses, we'll have to wait and see.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Everybody's a little testy up in here, notice I didn't say testes ballwhore. Anyway, looking on the nba.com stats, our best (+/-) line is G. Wallace S. Livingston T. Thomas G. Henderson D. Brown, only been on the court together for 3 and a half minutes and their number is 6. By contrast the starters, S. Jackson N. Mohammed G. Wallace B. Diaw D. Augustin are -31 and have played the most minutes of course. Also, comparisons sake, the best is the Warriors A. Biedrins D. Wright D. Lee M. Ellis S. Curry, and Dallas's . Kidd D. Nowitzki J. Terry T. Chandler C. Butler with 41 and 35 respectively. I'm gonna look into this, because i really don't understand it.This tit for tat seems useless. That said, statistics be damned, I feel that Hendo and D. Brown should for sure be given a real chance to show what they are made of. It is early in the season and these two young men should be given a fair share of games with solid minutes on the court to see what they can do.

The fact coach Brown has experimented so much with lineups in the early going this season is a joke. He should already have a solid grasp on what works best. Since he does not, perhaps he should stop being so "I only give real minutes to seasoned veterans" stubborn and give more minutes to our rookies of last year. I have seen signs in this early season that says they could be pretty damned good if given a real chance.

There is no real need to panic after an 0-3 start but it sure would not hurt to give players who usually don't get many minutes a real chance to show what they can contribute early on this season.

A big part of the teams problem is that it's head coach is like a lab technician in regards to figuring his team out. I am sure all coaches do this but it seems coach Brown does it even more than others. Coach Brown should be more settled on what his team can and can't do and how to distribute minutes. As of now the team is 0-3 and Larry really is a great head coach but it seems he goes through this burden of figuring his teams out in the beginning of each season and his teams always start slowly. It should not always be that way.

When we made our trades at the beginning of last year I thought they were done prematurely and if given fair time that team before the trades could have been as good if not better than what we ended up with. Should coach Brown struggle with getting shit together some good players will be made the scapegoats. Last season it worked out but this can not be a regular thing and have it always end favorably. If this team struggles till December we really need to be fair and not just give Larry Brown stupid excuses. I am not saying players are blameless but if coach Brown seems unwilling to utilize certain players one would have to wonder what would have been with their contributions.

[BIGCatBobcat]

I was interested to see, regarding Larry and his line-up changes and tinkering, I assumed he figured it out the year before and that's why the Pistons won that year, I didn't realize that was Larry's first year with the Pistons. Their core of Wallace, Billups and Hamilton were there 02-03 and 03-04, they brought in Sheed and elevated Memet Okur and probably most importantly, Prince. Brought Lindsay Hunter back. Anyway, point is, he got lightening in a bottle there. He's obviously looking for the same thing. that +/- might just be an indicator he needs to take a look at. As I always say though, biggest thing besides wins in basketball is the eyeball test!