Distressing Defensive Trend [Archive]

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Ampsportsduo

11-06-2010, 03:09 PM

I know that a lot of focus has been on the lack of offense, but through 5 games a major defensive concern has emerged. Only once have the Cats kept a team's leading scorer below their scoring average. Same for a team's 2nd leading scorer (excluding Stuckey for DET who sat out).

Dallas
Dirk +1.5 over avg.
Terry +4.5

Indiana
Granger +11.6
Hibbert -2.6

Milwaukee
Delfino +8.3
Jennings +5.3

NJ
Lopez -3.2
Harris +1.2

Detroit
Gordon -.2
Prince +.3

Gordon scored 20 and averages 20.2 so I didn't credit the team for holding him below his average. Perhaps most interesting is that the only position they've held players below average was the center with Lopez and Hibbert (who no one's going to argue is an elite scorer). Most disturbing is the variety of guys: 4 small guards, 3 small forwards and a power forward. Not one has had a bad game against our guys. The overachieving SFs has to be cause for concern because that's a position Crash has typically locked down. Unfortunately, as long as the defense is lacking, pretty sure it will be LB's focus over the lagging offense.

spectre

11-06-2010, 05:36 PM

I'm sad to see this thread. I knew it was probably warranted and I've obviously seen it on the court...but it kills me that the group we have isn't carrying over our major strength from last season.

http://www.hoopdata.com/teamdefstats.aspx?yr=2011&type=pg

DEFR:

2009 - 2nd
2010 - 12th

DefEff:

2009 - 3rd
2010 - 8th

OPTS:

2009 - 1st
2010 - 9th

OFG%:

2009 - 6th
2010 - 17th

Still plenty of time to turn it around, but this is worrisome...least to me.

BRNC

11-07-2010, 10:58 AM

spectre...it worries me that a team (a rather boring one offensively IMO) that builds itself as a blue-collar-defense oriented team that can't play the one strength they had is simply a very boring, not so good, collection of guys...kinda what I've seen this year from the 'Cats...

BobCatsFanInTx

11-07-2010, 09:13 PM

Chef

11-07-2010, 10:13 PM

I hope that if the team stumbles into the Lottery we get the first pick. I have a feeling the first pick for next season will be a can't miss prospect. I hope that is the case if so. I don't see our team having enough value to get any real value back in a trade. Do we have depth for a trade/trades to where we won't just weaken our strengths to improve our current weaknesses?

actually there is a lot of speculation that barnes, irvine and the other top prospects may stay and wait until after the lockout. this may be a very very weak draft.

spectre

11-08-2010, 11:54 AM

We're not going to be in the lottery, but even if we do end up there it'll be with a late pick.

Per Bonnell:

It's more the turnovers than the defense (http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2010/11/its-more-the-turnovers-than-the-defense.html)

An interesting statistic in the Bobcats' pre-game notes:

Over their first three games, the Bobcats allowed their opponent to average 101 points on 48 percent shooting. Over their last three games, Bobcats opponents averaged 90 points on 42 percent shooting.
We gave up 44.8 OFG% & 93.8 OPts for the season last year (pulled from my Hoopdata link) which was good for 6th & 1st in the league respectively...which would indicate that we ARE getting better defensively.

Just gotta limit those darn TOs.

BRNC

11-08-2010, 12:06 PM

spectre

11-08-2010, 12:45 PM

It's bothersome though when we do limit TOs (16 I think in the last game) and still rack-up an "L"...but I did feel we picked up our intensity which we've got to do to win...

spectre...I agree the defense is getting better but DJ will always be a weak-link there...not knocking his effort since I really believe he works on his "D" but he is limited defensively...

I agree he is, but working with LB (and him being LB's primary concern) will help him out a lot. What's screwing him is we don't have any Cs that are decent at playing "last line of defense".

I thought Felton slacked off some last year on his man D, mainly because he became comfortable with TC & Theo being smart enough to know how to guard the pick/rolls. This year DJ doesn't have that luxury.

DJ will always be a little weak laterally I think...but getting a competent C would do wonders.

BRNC

11-08-2010, 12:58 PM

spectre...100% agree on the Center position...I've always though Nazzy was a solid back-up...15-18 mpg but not a starter...I posted Bill Ingrams' answer to my question from his chat today and he also feels we need a starting center...

I think our defense will come around and we can score just enough to win but not keeping Theo ( to share minutes with Nazzy) was a mistake given we have no starting center...and I really don't see a trade that gets us one without giving up more than we can afford...

TheBeagle

11-08-2010, 03:14 PM

Probably not qualified to comment since I saw zilch of the Detroit game and less than half of the Magic, but it seems to me, since the Nets game, defense has noticeably improved, as the Bonnell blog indicates. I think the defense will continue to improve, but yeah, the TOs are ghastly, as is the overall offensive ineptitude. Once in a blue moon they'll execute a play Larry calls to perfection and get an easy bucket, but most of the time it's Keystone Cops out there.

I will say the defensive trend that distresses me however is the seeming lack of forcing TOs. Only breakaway basket I can think of all year was the play vs. ORL where Vince goes down, Jack picks it up and gives to Boris for the easy lay-in. I'm sure there have been others maybe, but this was an area (steals leading to breakaways) where we'd get 2 or 3+ a game last year, and I can't even think of 2 or 3 times through six games.

Like I said, don't know if any of this is valid since I've been a delinquent the last couple games, but that's what I'm seeing.

spectre

11-08-2010, 03:29 PM

I posted Bill Ingrams' answer to my question from his chat today and he also feels we need a starting center...

Larry in Blowing Rock, NC:
Good morning Bill...my Bobcats are off to a "typical" slow Larry Brown stat...do you see this as a slow start are do we have real problems at the Point Guard and Center positions?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/images/hw_icon.gif
Bill Ingram:
Augustin is playing better than anyone expected, and it's good to see. The real need is, as you mention, at center. Nazr's a good back-up center, and Diop isn't bad in spot minutes. But you have to have a starter, and right now the Bobcats don't.

Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Chat.asp?CHAT_TOPICS_ID=1263#ixzz14izGzLLG

Cool BRNC...you made the big time!

Good point Beagle on getting steals.

This year - 26th in steals (5.7)
Last year - 8th in steals (7.7)

Wasn't Felton & Jax ranked fairly high in that category?

Good catch Beagle!

BTW...that hoopdata link is da bomb.

Ampsportsduo

11-08-2010, 03:38 PM

Far be it from me to be the wet blanket, but look at the opponents in the first 3 games. A 2nd tier team out west (Dallas), a playoff team in the east and one of the most balanced attacks (Milwaukee), and a team that should be contending for the 8th spot if they stay healthy (Indy). In the second set of three it was a two lottery teams and a Magic team that was missing their starting PG. Not saying that the D hasn't improved some, but the schedule may have helped. Looking at the stats, DET and NJ were right at their season averages from the field, only the Magic were lower (by 4%).

spectre

11-08-2010, 03:50 PM

In regards to the wet blanket's post:

It's really just too small a sample size to tell anything definitively. Then too there are some things that take away from the generic statistic (like some guy going off hitting 8 of 10 3s when he normally shoots mid 30s just as an example)...which is why you have to watch the games.

I'd think we'd need to have something like 30 games under our belt before we could really see any trend.

I do think that if we could bring down those TO numbers to a halfway decent number we could probably get a better handle on where we're trending defensively.

Ampsportsduo

11-08-2010, 04:03 PM

In regards to the wet blanket's post:

It's really just too small a sample size to tell anything definitively.

I don't disagree, but for Ricky to trot out the FG%s as proof that defense isn't a concern is frustrating, nay wrong, when teams have shot at their average against us and primary scorers have been getting off.

spectre

11-08-2010, 04:13 PM

I don't disagree, but for Ricky to trot out the FG%s as proof that defense isn't a concern is frustrating, nay wrong, when teams have shot at their average against us and primary scorers have been getting off.

But it's Ricky! :p

Found this on the Raps' forum in regards to Kleiza in reference to an Insider article:

But Kleiza really looks horrible out there. Not surprisingly, he has the third worst turnover ratio among small forwards (other's in the bottom 10 for TO ratio include Deng, Lebron Durant and Wallace, FWIW).Not shocking to us of course...just reiterating that we have to take care of that ball.

BRNC

11-08-2010, 11:46 PM

TheBeagle

11-09-2010, 02:01 AM

Well...we had three less TOs than SA tonight and still have an "L" to show for it...leaving Manu open to take 3s killed us and I do see that as a defensive lapse...everyone in the league knows the guy will kill you if he gets open looks... Screw Manu; it was that fucking Curly Neal or whatever the hell his name is that did us in. Our 2 guards murdered us with their offensive defense.....but at least Henderson was knocking down his shots, unlike Jack after the first 6 minutes...

Interior defense I am damn happy with considering our roster, but yeah, like tonight showed us, perimeter defense is fucking abysmal.

BRNC

11-09-2010, 09:44 AM

teej

11-09-2010, 03:47 PM

I know Teej went off on Hendo but with Hendo at +6 and Jack at -11 during their respective floor times makes it kinda difficult to put it on Hendo...Hendo made a bad play or two that I saw but I can't put this on him...his over-all play was better than Jack...

Jack is still hurting the team with his high TOs and not (seemingly) having his head in the game (IMO)...but our over-all perimeter defense was poor in this game...giving 3pt shooters open looks is not the way to win games...

At least 4 if not all 5 of Neal's threes came on Hendo, and all 7 Neal was wide open. I understand our centers aren't great defensively, but Hendo can't help that like he's trying to. He needs to stay on his man. Trust me, Jack was terrible too, but at least he didn't leave his man WIDE OPEN. I was talking with Amp about this during the game, and we both could've had open shots on Hendo, that's how bad it was. Neal and George Hill were the only ones consistently open. Manu was open several times, but that's more because of the inside-outside offense with Duncan versus poor defense.

The +/- is because mostly Jack was playing against Manu, Timmy and TP. Hendo was playing against Splitter, Hill and Neal. Also, even though Hendo was 3-7 to Jack's 4-13, Jack hit 3 3's and, had he gotten a call or two, would've had 10 fta's and had a line more like 4-10. Not great, but better.

TheBeagle

11-09-2010, 04:53 PM

At least 4 if not all 5 of Neal's threes came on Hendo, and all 7 Neal was wide open. I understand our centers aren't great defensively, but Hendo can't help that like he's trying to. He needs to stay on his man. Trust me, Jack was terrible too, but at least he didn't leave his man WIDE OPEN. I was talking with Amp about this during the game, and we both could've had open shots on Hendo, that's how bad it was. Neal and George Hill were the only ones consistently open. Manu was open several times, but that's more because of the inside-outside offense with Duncan versus poor defense.

The +/- is because mostly Jack was playing against Manu, Timmy and TP. Hendo was playing against Splitter, Hill and Neal. Also, even though Hendo was 3-7 to Jack's 4-13, Jack hit 3 3's and, had he gotten a call or two, would've had 10 fta's and had a line more like 4-10. Not great, but better. The quote I highlighted is the key to the whole thing. When you have shooters camping behind the arc, DO NOT help on a drive. We'll have some combination of Gana, GW, or Tyrus out there to either contest the drive, or, if he dishes inside, come from the weak side and challenge that shot, if not block it. If you stay with your man on the perimeter, there is no other option than for the offense to take it inside where interior help defenders await, or for the campers to get off the line to help the driver as an outlet, either of which is preferable to leaving a man wide blessed open.

As for the +/- difference, Jack's TOs and uninspired play played the more prominent role than what lineup was out there, though I agree that it was a factor, just not the main one.

As an aside, this has been a really good thread, guys!

spectre

11-09-2010, 05:33 PM

Isn't Hendo considered to have a good BBIQ?

We left Felton out there by himself by plan during the ORL series because we were so scared of Howard. Is it a reach to think this game was similar?

As an aside, this has been a really good thread, guys!

Yeah, I love this stuff!

BRNC

11-09-2010, 07:53 PM

Teej...Jack was hurting us in many ways...lack of consistent effort, not getting back quickly on defense, and his TOs continue to kill us...I'm not saying Hendo had a great game but gave a better effort IMO...the help defense is designed by the coaching staff not the players...and frankly I've never been impressed with it when we play teams with 3pt "campers"...we always get killed but that's not something I've ever put on our players but directly on LB...

I was encouraged by our effort last night but I'm not enthused with LB and was very unhappy when I read MJ wanted to extend him...LB (with one-foot out the door) is more of a distraction at this point and if he can't get his focus back it will be a long season...

spectre

11-10-2010, 09:20 AM

Couple of quick notes:

Ricky throwing out stats again:

"Those slow starts we've had, they dictate how we play defensively. A lot of times we're playing back on defense. Like coach says, we're more reacting than doing the acting on defense."

This is clearly a factor in their 1-6 start. The Bobcats are 27th among 30 NBA teams this season in steals, at 5.86 per game. Last season, they finished eighth in steals, at 7.71 per game.

"We caused more turnovers (last season) simply because of quickness," said coach Larry Brown.

When asked why his team has worsened in this regard, Brown declined to publicly speculate.

"I'll let you figure that one out," he said.

Perhaps Brown was avoiding the temptation to second-guess personnel decisions. The Bobcats chose not to re-sign point guard Raymond Felton and traded center Tyson Chandler, primarily for payroll relief.

Those two might have been more expensive than the Bobcats could afford, but they were factors defensively.

Chandler, now with Dallas, is a post defender, so players in front of him could afford to gamble in the passing lanes.

Felton, now with New York, is built like an NFL defensive back, so he usually could fight through screens. D.J. Augustin is smaller and lighter, so the wing players are more apt to have to give help defensively.

Augustin averages 0.43 steals this season. Felton averaged 1.54 steals last season. That gap, over 82 games, is the difference between being an above-average, vs. below-average, NBA team in steals.
Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/09/1825564/bobcats-turn-over-some-new-grief.html#ixzz14tBaVZCf

Raja Bell's halftime speech was very instrumental in Utah's come from behind victory in Miami:

C.J. Miles on Bell's speech: "We came in [at halftime]. I don't want to say our heads were down, but you could see the frustration. Guys were made, which kind of helped spark the fire to play hard. Because nobody likes to be embarrassed on the basketball court. And then you come in with the expectations of people expecting us to get beat. And we don't like hearing that. At halftime, Raj came in; he said that we had to be tough; we can't control if we shoot the ball well and it goes in and out, or we get some bad calls — whatever may be. Everything's not going to be perfect. But we can be tough and we can defend those guys.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/50644497-62/game-half-millsap-bell.html.csp

I can't tell you how much I miss Raja Bell.

TheBeagle

11-10-2010, 05:53 PM

Couple of quick notes:

Ricky throwing out stats again:

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/11/09/1825564/bobcats-turn-over-some-new-grief.html#ixzz14tBaVZCf

Raja Bell's halftime speech was very instrumental in Utah's come from behind victory in Miami:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/50644497-62/game-half-millsap-bell.html.csp

I can't tell you how much I miss Raja Bell. Yeah, especially considering how his replacement has been playing and acting this season. Really wish MJ and Co. had handled that situation better last year and maybe Raja would've come back this summer.