View Full Version : The Gerald Wallace vs. Stephen Jackson Thread
SWedd523
01-24-2011, 01:14 AM
The threads about each player have been closed as the discussion on each was basically the exact same thing. Use this thread any time you want to complain about either one, or want to say one is better than the other.
Let the knee jerking begin.
Let the knee jerking begin.
love it......
...from an efficiency stand-point Crash is still the better player...and I'd rather see Hendo work at SG so if we only move one player (of the two) I'd rather see Jax go...
Toocool
01-24-2011, 11:22 AM
Would rather move Jackson and keep Crash.
Why?
Jackson fails.
Enough said. :biggrin:
Okay okay seriously, Jack needs to go. Firstly he stalls the offense completely when they pass him the ball. He turns it over at an alarming rate and claims to be 'clutch' when he isn't much of a clutch player. Plays like a shooter when he isn't, kills us on offense when he stares at refs at no calls, which also leads to killing us on defense since it's a 4 v 5. Able to easily shoot us out of the game, continually chucking shots that are not only tough, but low percentage to make.
Yes, he does some great stuff. He hits key jumpers/baskets when we need it. He's helped to lead us to the playoffs. I appreciate what he's done, but I rather loose Jack than Crash. Jackson is what, 32 now? He's past his prime now, and his contract is still rather fat.
You might say our offense will somewhat fail since Jackson draws 'attention' from other players. Which is where the improving DJ and Hendo comes in. DJ is now showing that he can get into the lane at a high rate. He can create from driving and dishing which is great. And if you need help with passing, Diaw can easily pinch hit for a few minutes. However DJ is drawing a lot more attention as well (see Sixers trapping him every time they could in second half). Hendo has shown that he can score, although he doesn't take a lot of shots.
But honestly, I rather keep Crash than Jackson.
*jerks knees*
Crash sucks
Jack sucks
MJ sucks
Rod sucks
Larry sucked
DJ sucks
Hendo sucks
Silas sucks
Oakley sucks
Livingston sucks
Nazr sucks
Kwame sucks
UPS sucks
Sherron sucks
Tyrus sucks
Eddie sucks
Dom sucks
Carroll sucks
Gana sucks
Boris sucks
Ralph Lewis sucks
Lil Silas sucks
Dr. Perry sucks
Did I miss anyone? Oh yeah, Steve, Dell and Steph suck too.
/sarcasm
rsxnova
01-24-2011, 05:03 PM
And Steph needs to lay off the sausage.
davcbow
01-24-2011, 05:05 PM
Sure is alot of sucking going on around here... :)
Sure is alot of sucking going on around here... :)
Don't tell theGayKid, he'll take it the wrong way.
SWedd523
01-24-2011, 05:14 PM
Steph sucks too.
You got that right.
And Steph needs to lay off the sausage.
She can lay on my sausage all she wants
Marvel
01-24-2011, 07:16 PM
This thread has gone AWOL...
ammofan
01-24-2011, 07:56 PM
she can lay on my sausage all she wants
this. ^^^^^
davcbow
01-24-2011, 09:18 PM
Don't tell theGayKid, he'll take it the wrong way.
LOL too funny :)
anton273
01-25-2011, 08:38 AM
Time for jax n crash to step up tonight at the start of our away stretch! Although i can see DJ stealing the headlights again and we all moan about our 2 biggest stars under performing for another couple days!
Keep Crash trade the trash!!
Dmaxcs
01-25-2011, 10:27 AM
The Bobcats win all of their road games if Wallace and Jackson drive the lane and draw fouls.
The Bobcats win all of their road games if Wallace and Jackson drive the lane and draw fouls.
and the other team only plays 4 players.
spectre
01-27-2011, 11:56 AM
10 Reasons Charlotte Bobcats Need To Trade Stephen Jackson (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/586702-nba-trade-rumors-10-reasons-bobcats-need-to-trade-stephen-jackson)
What he said.
10 Reasons Charlotte Bobcats Need To Trade Stephen Jackson (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/586702-nba-trade-rumors-10-reasons-bobcats-need-to-trade-stephen-jackson)
What he said.
Great find spectre...and I 100% agree with his points...
Three things in that guy's post I disagree with.
1. Jack is a great teammate, which is why you won't find anyone who trashes him.
2. He and Hendo play well together.
3. This team can't financially survive another rebuild right now if they have any shot of making the playoffs. See Forbes.
stun704
01-27-2011, 05:31 PM
Three things in that guy's post I disagree with.
1. Jack is a great teammate, which is why you won't find anyone who trashes him.
2. He and Hendo play well together.
3. This team can't financially survive another rebuild right now if they have any shot of making the playoffs. See Forbes. If the forbes is any baramoter, atleast i know we are safe from contraction. the Hornets/Pacers/Kings/Bucks are all in worse shape then we are
spectre
01-27-2011, 07:57 PM
No matter who Jax plays with he's still around a 40% volume shooter who's going to be on the dark side of 35 when that contract runs out.
If he'd only adjust when he's not hitting shots. Instead...he just keeps chucking. That little nugget will lose as games as we win.
Ghost Kat
01-28-2011, 07:01 PM
Everything from that link was 2 million % correct. For this team to win Capt. Jack either needs a sidekick or he has to be traded. DJ does his job IMO. His production is above average to me. I was convinced Larry Brown had taken his manhood. We need Tyrus and Kwame, they both play their role perfect so far. Wallace IMO is not a scorer. It's always nice when he does, but he has a weak jumper. He's been playing alot better these last two games. But like everyone else I want last years Crash. Boris, like Capt. Jack , is killing this team. If Jackson isn't lauching the ball up, Boris is passing up the chance to do it. He's been in the league for to long and played the same way to be talking about his potential and what he could do. I wish we could package both of them.
My vote goes to Wallace. This team needs everything else he does, plus scoring points. And I will have none of this trading Crash talk.
Twan's Kin
01-29-2011, 01:30 AM
I didn't think that long 3 from Jack at the end of regulation would go in at Oracle Arena... but it did... and IMO Jack won the game for us against Golden State.
davcbow
01-29-2011, 01:34 AM
Everybody played a great game to come back from the bad shooting in the first half... 7th spot and moving up... Target 6th and NYK ;)
After watching Crash tonight I don't see how we can keep him. He's deferring wayyyy too much and Jack and Hendo are clearly working well together.
Plowright
01-29-2011, 04:59 AM
I agree with Teej, we will get more with Trading Crash and We will lose less as we will just insert Hendo to SG, hes proven he can be a lockdown defender, block shots. He is not showing some nice offensive tekkers, if he plays GW minutes his numbers will defo increase. Hendo also is showing the nack to create for others, 5 assists in the warriors game!
Interesting point that Hendo had 5 assist in a game that Crash had 6 assist...it was a game where the team overcame really piss-poor FT shooting...and I think it great Jax finally caught fire...but if Hendo is developing into a volume shooter (3-10 ala Jax) then keeping them both together will really make it difficult on more occasions than not...
I'm all for one of the two (Jax or Crash) being trade only...and let me emphasize the only part...the trade makes us better...the team is playing good BB now...Silas has had a chance to "stamp" the team...and I agree with the FO approach of evaluating (stopping trade talks) what Paul can do with this group...right now what is the "need" to change it with the team playing good BB...?
Interesting point that Hendo had 5 assist in a game that Crash had 6 assist...it was a game where the team overcame really piss-poor FT shooting...and I think it great Jax finally caught fire...but if Hendo is developing into a volume shooter (3-10 ala Jax) then keeping them both together will really make it difficult on more occasions than not...
I'm all for one of the two (Jax or Crash) being trade only...and let me emphasize the only part...the trade makes us better...the team is playing good BB now...Silas has had a chance to "stamp" the team...and I agree with the FO approach of evaluating (stopping trade talks) what Paul can do with this group...right now what is the "need" to change it with the team playing good BB...?
When your $10.5 million Captain doesn't attempt a field goal until under 10 minutes are left in the fourth quarter, there's something wrong.
When your $10.5 million Captain doesn't attempt a field goal until under 10 minutes are left in the fourth quarter, there's something wrong.
Something wrong with ball distribution...or refusing to take bad shots? It does not mean something was wrong with him deciding not to shoot...but in the games where Jack (exaggeration) has gone 1-2-3 for the world and he is left in the game is something wrong? When Jack gets pissed and stays on one end of the court while we play 4 on 5 is something wrong? I'm not evaluating Crash and Jack on one game Teej but the body of their work here...and IMO I'd rather keep Crash and trade Jack...it is just my opinion...
ohara831
01-29-2011, 01:34 PM
Crash use to take it to the rim all the time. Now, he is not shooting or shooting jumpers. And even if he plays OK defense and gets some assists and rebounds, you expect far more from someone making $10 mil. Either he is suffering from the effects of his injuries over the years, or he has lost the passion that made hiim "Crash" and the heart and soul of this team. Either way, unless there is something to show the FO he will be able to turn it around, I would ship him for the best deal we can get. He is just not adding much to the team and the rest of the guys are stepping up.
Crash use to take it to the rim all the time. Now, he is not shooting or shooting jumpers. And even if he plays OK defense and gets some assists and rebounds, you expect far more from someone making $10 mil. Either he is suffering from the effects of his injuries over the years, or he has lost the passion that made hiim "Crash" and the heart and soul of this team. Either way, unless there is something to show the FO he will be able to turn it around, I would ship him for the best deal we can get. He is just not adding much to the team and the rest of the guys are stepping up.
This. I'd rather Jack try to make buckets and miss than watch Crash half-ass his passes around the top of the key, or pass out of a one-on-one in the post. He showed in the Sacramento game he still has the ability, but then last night he refused to shoot even when open. And Crash's D is terrible now, too. He was toasted by Dorell Wright multiple times and his rotations weren't there. I love what he's done for this team, but reputation alone doesn't cut it. And if he still has a decent rep around the league, we need to trade him before he gets rid of it with his shit game.
WrxErik
01-29-2011, 02:45 PM
I have been saying to keep both unless a trade comes around where we are getting the good end of the deal. I rather just see a small trade to add depth and that is about it. Also the players are people with lives out side of basketball. Something could be up with Geralds personal life, Who knows? I am not going to throw anyone under the bus for having some off games.
Plowright
01-29-2011, 04:26 PM
I have been saying to keep both unless a trade comes around where we are getting the good end of the deal.
Sorry, but dont you think every trade we will make has the aim to give us the good end of the deal?
Sorry, but dont you think every trade we will make has the aim to give us the good end of the deal?
you must be new to this. we always get screwed.
ohara831
01-29-2011, 05:31 PM
I have been saying to keep both unless a trade comes around where we are getting the good end of the deal. I rather just see a small trade to add depth and that is about it. Also the players are people with lives out side of basketball. Something could be up with Geralds personal life, Who knows? I am not going to throw anyone under the bus for having some off games.
But it is not just "some off games". He has not been the same since the All Star break last season. And he has not played anywhere near where we need him to play, especially considering the salary he makes. DJ is avg 15 pts 3 reb. and 6.4 assists while Crash is avg 15.7 pts 7.8 reb and 2.3 assists. Problem is, one is making 2.5 mil and the other is making 10.5 mil.
CatNation
01-29-2011, 05:59 PM
Not really fair to compare two guys based on salary when one is still on a rookie contract. Crash has been a steal salary wise for a few years now, this year he's probably just fair (considering Gilbert and Lewis are making what, 20 mil?) DJ is gonna get paid eventually too, we can only hope its by MJ and not someone else :paddle:
Plowright
01-29-2011, 06:59 PM
I dont think we got screwed over in the Jackson trade! Do you!?!?!
I dont think we got screwed over in the Jackson trade! Do you!?!?!
we will by the end of his contract.
DJ_2_Hendo_4theWIN
01-30-2011, 11:27 AM
we will by the end of his contract.
How? By the end of his contract would of likely had at least 2 playoff appearances that he was as big a part of as any. Ultimately these playoff appearnces are what builds up a fan base, bring national attention, and saves this team from bankruptcy. I don't see how we would be screwed by the end of his contract considering all he could had brought this franchise...
Wallace needs to go.
WarioVsMooChicken
01-30-2011, 01:15 PM
When Wallace has suffered injuries, the team ulitmately hasn't suffered. In fact, we've played well without him. I love him on this team, but Jax (Despite him killing us sometimes) is much more important.
SWedd523
01-30-2011, 02:28 PM
Didn't Crash going down a couple of years back put us out of the playoff hunt?
WarioVsMooChicken
01-30-2011, 02:53 PM
We started Carrol at SG and Richardson at SF, went on like a 5 game winning streak. Franchise longest at the time.
Then last year the only time we beat orlando was when Wallace was injured.
This year we played pretty well without him as well. We really don't seem to miss him
DJ_2_Hendo_4theWIN
01-30-2011, 05:12 PM
Didn't Crash going down a couple of years back put us out of the playoff hunt?
When have we ever been close to the playoffs outside of last season? haha
I think Swedd is referring to 08-09, when Bynum messed up Gerald's lung.
When he got hurt, the team was 19-26. When he came back, they were 21-32. That's 2-6. However, if Gerald had played and they went 8-0 (which wouldn't have happened since they played multiple playoff teams in the Western Conference) they would've made the playoffs.
Here's a look at how the team fares with and without Crash:
2004-05: 16-54 with, 2-10 without
2005-06: 19-36 with, 7-20 without
2006-07: 29-43 with, 4-6 without
2007-08: 23-39 with, 9-11 without
2008-09: 32-39 with, 3-8 without
2009-10: 41-35 with, 3-3 without
2010-11: 16-21 with, 4-5 without
Read into that what you want, but to me it shows that, outside the Bickerstaff era he's not that important.
DJ_2_Hendo_4theWIN
01-30-2011, 10:08 PM
I think Swedd is referring to 08-09, when Bynum messed up Gerald's lung.
When he got hurt, the team was 19-26. When he came back, they were 21-32. That's 2-6. However, if Gerald had played and they went 8-0 (which wouldn't have happened since they played multiple playoff teams in the Western Conference) they would've made the playoffs.
Here's a look at how the team fares with and without Crash:
2004-05: 16-54 with, 2-10 without
2005-06: 19-36 with, 7-20 without
2006-07: 29-43 with, 4-6 without
2007-08: 23-39 with, 9-11 without
2008-09: 32-39 with, 3-8 without
2009-10: 41-35 with, 3-3 without
2010-11: 16-21 with, 4-5 without
Read into that what you want, but to me it shows that, outside the Bickerstaff era he's not that important.
Yeah, I wouldn't really say that Wallace going down in that stretch kept us out of the playoffs. But I think looking at those numbers it shows that we can win without him. Now take into account that those are games that we are just plain without him, and no added talent in his place. So seeing as we are pretty close to .500 the last 2 years without Wallace and without a fill in, I think we could be better obviously if we had talent back.
Marvel
01-31-2011, 03:54 PM
May have been that way with Wallace a couple seasons back or even last year, but with Jack and Hendo on the wings, Wallace isn't as important to our wins total like he once was. Sad but true.
Ghost Kat
01-31-2011, 07:14 PM
May have been that way with Wallace a couple seasons back or even last year, but with Jack and Hendo on the wings, Wallace isn't as important to our wins total like he once was. Sad but true.
I don't know if I'd call Jackson a wing player. He doesn't run the floor, Crash kinda runs. I don't know what it is but even on defense he doesn't try to run people down anymore. Henderson these last few games has really impressed me. I'm almost open to letting Wallace go, but I still think it needs to be Jackson.
Bobcat Matt
01-31-2011, 11:23 PM
both of them suck...this UTAH game tonight showed it...Jack, jab step, jab step, jab step, head fake, head fake...drive lane, complain about no call....GW...plays 40 minutes a night and has little to no impact on the game...another 2-7 night....And Fat ass Boris...ugh...he's the most annoying athlete i've ever seen...next to Kirilenko...nice hair douche bag...god im frustrated!
Marvel
01-31-2011, 11:29 PM
Aaaaaah Wallace makes me wanna pull my hair out, but i don't have any. Eh i'll pull my pubes out.
ohara831
01-31-2011, 11:32 PM
both of them suck...this UTAH game tonight showed it...Jack, jab step, jab step, jab step, head fake, head fake...drive lane, complain about no call....GW...plays 40 minutes a night and has little to no impact on the game...another 2-7 night....And Fat ass Boris...ugh...he's the most annoying athlete i've ever seen...next to Kirilenko...nice hair douche bag...god im frustrated!
But Jax is not even close to stinking up the place like Crash. Jax is still producing in at least half the games. Crash is just taking up cap space and playing time.
WrxErik
02-01-2011, 12:51 AM
Ok if you watched the Utah game and could not tell Wallace was injured and/or sick you are blind. He is trying to help and play but you can tell by his game it is taking a toll on him. He sat on the bench longer than everyone else at time outs, did not give fives to people at FT attempts etc. He just looks drained on the court, not him self at all. His body language is key. He is a captain of the team, He will play unless he absolutely can not. He needs to give his ankles a rest. He injured his ankle, came back to play, injured it again played the rest of the game, Injured it at practice and was back after a week or 2, hurt it again in the bulls game. (order may not be correct but you get the idea) Wallace just needs a rest.
stun704
02-01-2011, 01:32 AM
Ok if you watched the Utah game and could not tell Wallace was injured and/or sick you are blind. He is trying to help and play but you can tell by his game it is taking a toll on him. He sat on the bench longer than everyone else at time outs, did not give fives to people at FT attempts etc. He just looks drained on the court, not him self at all. His body language is key. He is a captain of the team, He will play unless he absolutely can not. He needs to give his ankles a rest. He injured his ankle, came back to play, injured it again played the rest of the game, Injured it at practice and was back after a week or 2, hurt it again in the bulls game. (order may not be correct but you get the idea) Wallace just needs a rest. Well then, he needs to sit his ass out until hes healthy enough to contribute or play limited minuites
Well then, he needs to sit his ass out until hes healthy enough to contribute or play limited minuites
I think every NBA Coach puts the team on the floor they think can win (or at least the ones that want a job)...Paul makes the call on who to play and I would guess he feels the team has a better chance with Crash (even at less than 100%) than without him...why not get pissed at him rather than Crash?
stun704
02-01-2011, 01:59 AM
I think every NBA Coach puts the team on the floor they think can win (or at least the ones that want a job)...Paul makes the call on who to play and I would guess he feels the team has a better chance with Crash (even at less than 100%) than without him...why not get pissed at him rather than Crash?
Crash should be honest with silas and take himself out until hes fully healed
Crash should be honest with silas and take himself out until hes fully healed
...and what makes you think Silas does not get the med reports on his players...please...it is not Geralds decision...it is the med-team and Coach's decision...
stun704
02-01-2011, 02:24 AM
...and what makes you think Silas does not get the med reports on his players...please...it is not Geralds decision...it is the med-team and Coach's decision...
you've got me confused, I don't even think Crash is hurt, I think hes being a premadonna, and not giving his all out there.. I was just saying he should be sitting out, if WrxErik situation was literal.
WrxErik
02-01-2011, 02:50 AM
I agree with both of you. I think Crash should sit. I imagine though that Wallace and Silas probably both agree that him being out there is the best option for the team. Which honestly is hard to disagree with since it is a business.
you've got me confused, I don't even think Crash is hurt, I think hes being a premadonna, and not giving his all out there.. I was just saying he should be sitting out, if WrxErik situation was literal.
I understand that's your opinion...and that's fine with me...
I think the guy is not 100% and Paul still feels that he's the best player to have on the court at SF regardless...but IMO the only "prima donna" we have is the black-hole on offense S. Jackson...that's my opinion...
ammofan
02-01-2011, 11:17 AM
Well then, he needs to sit his ass out until hes healthy enough to contribute or play limited minuites
How about we just trade him?
DJ_2_Hendo_4theWIN
02-01-2011, 03:17 PM
How about we just trade him?
Exactly...the guy is useless to us. Cannot produce, and is actually hurting us at this point. Henderson is more potent on offense, and a better defender. Henderson would allow Jack back to the 3, which makes this team better by itself. Bottom line, Henderson should be and should had been the one in crunch time...not Wallace.
SWedd523
02-01-2011, 07:15 PM
Exactly...the guy is useless to us. Cannot produce, and is actually hurting us at this point. Henderson is more potent on offense, and a better defender. Henderson would allow Jack back to the 3, which makes this team better by itself. Bottom line, Henderson should be and should had been the one in crunch time...not Wallace.
I'm really not too big on uninformed posts. You obviously like Hendo, so you're going to have a bias towards him either way. But let me direct you to a post I made from the other day.
That'd be fine and all if Hendo was actually performing better.
Compare their per36 numbers, which actually benefits Hendo since his REAL numbers per36 would be lower. Even still, Crash does better in made Field Goals, Three Pointers, AND Free Throws. He also gives you more rebounds, assists, steals, and points.
As for advanced stats, Crash still has a much better PER, True Shooting/Effective FG, and winshares while also having a better ORtg AND Drtg.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wallage01&y1=2011&p2=hendege02&y2=2011
ammofan
02-01-2011, 07:20 PM
SWEDD: Hendo's PER stats are pure speculation. Hendo has played about a third of the minutes that GW has played and so there is no real way to predict what Hendo would produce when given the experience/minutes GW has.
SWedd523
02-01-2011, 07:36 PM
The stat takes what he HAS done and expands it, which means it should positively benefit (like his per36 numbers) because he plays against second units and also because it's almost certain that his numbers would go down when actually given starters' minutes compared to what he is now (per36-wise). a 9.9 PER isn't good no matter how you look at it.
Derrick Brown and Hammer get less minutes yet have higher PERs. Also, of all the players that have played 400+ minutes, Hendo has the lowest DRtg. Behind Whodafuck, Shaun, and UPS. He's actually tied with Hammer at 108
SWedd523
02-01-2011, 07:38 PM
Now don't take any of this to mean I don't want to trade Crash, because I am as disgusted with him as everyone else and wouldn't mind seeing him leave. BUT, I'm not going to be as irrational as most others on here seem to be and be willing to trade him just so Hendo can start,
because I guarantee you, DJ-Hendo-Jack-Diaw-Kwame is NOT better than DJ-Jack-Crash-Diaw-Kwame.
At least not yet.
ammofan
02-01-2011, 08:16 PM
Now don't take any of this to mean I don't want to trade Crash, because I am as disgusted with him as everyone else and wouldn't mind seeing him leave. BUT, I'm not going to be as irrational as most others on here seem to be and be willing to trade him just so Hendo can start,
because I guarantee you, DJ-Hendo-Jack-Diaw-Kwame is NOT better than DJ-Jack-Crash-Diaw-Kwame.
At least not yet.
Oh I dont want Hendo starting either. I want players in return for Wallace, that can start.
But I do see the point people make about Hendo. He basically plays like Crash does and he is younger. We dont really know what he can do if he starts so I guess many of us are intrigued by him....especially since he has improved bunches in the last few weeks.
How's your nose by the way? Didnt you break it or something?
SWedd523
02-01-2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah I broke the shit out of it in three places a week and a half ago in an intramural game. I ended up playing in our second game this past Sunday and dropped 19 and the game winning three at the buzzer :D
I went to get surgery this morning so I look like hot ass right now.
ammofan
02-01-2011, 09:36 PM
Yeah I broke the shit out of it in three places a week and a half ago in an intramural game. I ended up playing in our second game this past Sunday and dropped 19 and the game winning three at the buzzer :D
I went to get surgery this morning so I look like hot ass right now.
LMAO......You gonna have to rock a Rip-mask?
http://www.fauowlaccess.com/Blogs/OwlThingsConsidered/uploaded_images/021610-Rip-Hamilton-768537.jpg
WrxErik
02-02-2011, 02:23 PM
SWedd you summed it up perfectly. I could not agree with you more.
Ghost Kat
02-02-2011, 07:06 PM
Jackson sucks.....
nfcchamp2004
02-02-2011, 09:02 PM
my thoughts about gerald wallace's decline:
i believe that crash hasn't been the same since spraining his ankle on MLK Day last year against the kings. Before then, the bobcats were absolutely killing teams and had a long winning streak that included wins over houston, phoenix and san antonio. After getting hurt he still had crash-like games (game 1 against orlando for example), but we have seen more duds (dunk contest, all star game, post all star game stretch) and he also had an ankle injury against the clippers at home last year in March. IMO, all these injuries are starting to take a toll on him and with his gradual age, he has lost some of his explosive athleticism. Was wondering on what you guys thought..?
stun704
02-03-2011, 02:49 AM
Jackson sucks.....
Jax's 39 pt performance tonight says otherwise :D
Plowright
02-03-2011, 09:15 AM
If we trade GW it has to be for a centre, not another small forward. Nene or Bynum are possibilities if the lakers move artest and another trade. doubt thats gonna happen tho...
Ghost Kat
02-03-2011, 01:31 PM
Jax's 39 pt performance tonight says otherwise :D
One game? After shooting 7-20 every other game. You are easily impressed.
Jackson still sucks...
ammofan
02-03-2011, 02:52 PM
One game? After shooting 7-20 every other game. You are easily impressed.
Jackson still sucks...
Compared to Wallace, no he doesnt. At least Jack can score 15+ every night no matter what. Gerald airballed by like 10 feet on a free throw line jumper last night.....He scored 10 at least, thats up form the 7 he put in the last 3. Jack out did what Gerald has done in the last month, in 1 week.
davcbow
02-03-2011, 04:32 PM
I say keep them both Gerald will heal... :)
Ghost Kat
02-03-2011, 05:10 PM
Compared to Wallace, no he doesnt. At least Jack can score 15+ every night no matter what. Gerald airballed by like 10 feet on a free throw line jumper last night.....He scored 10 at least, thats up form the 7 he put in the last 3. Jack out did what Gerald has done in the last month, in 1 week.
We all know Wallace isn't the scoring type. He impacts game on everything else he does. I'll agree this year he hasn't done much of either. But we lose more with Jackson. Last night I watched people cut through the lane or pop out and Jackson just held the ball. Then shot a brick. Other times I saw the same play and he fired a bullet pass before the guy was actually open. He drives to the lane, yells and falls then doesn't get back on defense. When he actually hits those shots you get games like last night....but how often does he hit a shot then go 0-4...hit another shot then go 0-3... hit two in a row miss two in a row
With all Wallace's problems he doesn't ball hog or shoot us out of games. Jackson is a black hole on offense. He sucks in way more light then he gives off. He may score 20 pts a nite but it takes him way over 20 shots to get there. Most of those come from him going one on one, not an actual part of the "offense".
Kat: If, by your logic, Jackson sucks and we trade him away, how are you planning on scoring?
WrxErik
02-03-2011, 05:20 PM
Easy you only trade Jackson if it is for another player who can put up points. I don't think our front office is that stupid.
Easy you only trade Jackson if it is for another player who can put up points. I don't think our front office is that stupid.
Yeah, but who (in Jack's price range) has that capability AND is on the trade block?
ammofan
02-03-2011, 05:34 PM
Yeah, but who (in Jack's price range) has that capability AND is on the trade block?
This is my whole point. We trade Jack.....we score 70 ppg and lose everytime. We keep Jack and deal Gerald for a SG and/or C: we lose essentially nothing other than the name because alot of NBA players can match Geralds output.
WrxErik
02-03-2011, 06:44 PM
If you really think anyone can come in and replace Wallace then obviously other teams have the same idea. There for making his value nothing which mean we aren't going to get anything worth a damn in return. So like I have been saying for a while there is no reason to trade Jackson or Wallace. Both are very important to our team.
davcbow
02-03-2011, 09:44 PM
If you really think anyone can come in and replace Wallace then obviously other teams have the same idea. There for making his value nothing which mean we aren't going to get anything worth a damn in return. So like I have been saying for a while there is no reason to trade Jackson or Wallace. Both are very important to our team.
I agree totally :)
Ghost Kat
02-04-2011, 12:19 AM
Kat: If, by your logic, Jackson sucks and we trade him away, how are you planning on scoring?
Logic??....this is pure hate
But for real, his contract is so big it will take atleast two players to get value. But just because jackson scores dont forget he leads the team in turnovers, missed shots, time spent on the floor after a missed lay up, time spent mean mugging the refs....on & on
Funny story from Bill Simmons column
Q: After drinking for a few hours at the Yardhouse before going to the Bobcats versus Clippers game and drinking the entire game my friends and I who were sitting close to the Bobcats bench decided it would be a good idea to start heckling Stephen Jackson, aka Krazee-Eyez Killa, at the end of the game. NOT a good idea. He pointed at us and said "I'm gonna f--- you guys up." For the rest of the game and the whole walk to our car I kept looking behind my back to see if he was following us. Even in the car I figured he might drive up next to us and I would end up on "1000 Ways to Die," the Stephen Jackson edition. Turns out you should NEVER EVER mess with Stephen Jackson.
-- Garrett, Oxnard, Calif.
SG: Um ... didn't we know that already?
Bonnell actually has a pretty good write up on Jax....
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/02/03/2034521/the-many-faces-of-stephen-jackson.html
Absinthe
02-04-2011, 02:26 PM
I think that if they trade Jackson then Wallace's numbers will increase greatly. I get the feeling that Wallace does not like Jackson and his production has suffered. When Charlotte traded for Jackson they essentially demoted Wallace to "second option".
I think that if they trade Jackson then Wallace's numbers will increase greatly. I get the feeling that Wallace does not like Jackson and his production has suffered. When Charlotte traded for Jackson they essentially demoted Wallace to "second option".
I'm not sure Crash has ever seen himself as a "first option" type player...from interviews he always given the impression that he knows he's a "blue-collar" type player...
He and JRich played just fine together and JRich was clearly the first option...
None of us knows what type of chemistry he and Jack have but they were very successful playing together last year...and I'm not trying to disregard you're saying...but they did have success...
This year (IMO) I think there are a combination of factors regarding Crash...ankle issues, having (again) to re-adjust his game for another Head Coach, Ray leaving (making him the last guy standing) and not having Ray to help "tone down" some of Jacks' rougher edges...these are all guesses on my part but I don't think it is just one thing...
polarcat
02-04-2011, 02:53 PM
It's been pointed out a ton already that something is wrong with Wallace. I don't know personally if it's a hush-hush injury that he's powering through, not able to adapt fully to his potential with Jax on the court, family issues, management/team/locker room issues or what. He's missing shots he used to drain, not drawing fouls where he used to, committing way more fouls than he used to and his overall demeanor sucks on the court. I have had a love-hate relationship with Jackson since he got here. I never hated on him because of his past or anything, but how he can be your best friend one day, and then a grumpy bitch that kills your team the next. Right now, we're riding the wave and he's a player that opposing teams HATE to play against (i.e.- he made that game in Detroit the other night personal). He is capable of taking that closing second shot, and I can't name another Bobcat that I trust with that responsibility. With DJ emerging as a permanent starter at PG, a solid rotation of Diaw and T2 at the PF spot, and Brown/Nazzy platooning the center spot, I wonder what we would look for in return for Gerald. I'm guessing a SG, but he would have to be better than Jax at that spot when Wallace is on the court, and I don't know if there is one. So either we trade Wallace for a SG and move Jax to the SF spot or we trade Wallace for another SF since there would be a void at SF if Jax stays at the 2 and that makes no sense for another team to trade a SF for a SF. I am so freakin' curious to see what this team looks like when I wake up on Feb. 24th. I know this is Wallace's first bad season for us, but at his age and still able to salvage value off of last seasons ASG appearance, I wonder if it's the start of his decline.
As far as Jack and Gerald's chemistry go, did anyone see them post-game in Detroit? Crash came up behind Jack while Steph was interviewing him and they were messing around like they were last year...first time I've seen that this season.
Ghost Kat
02-04-2011, 05:16 PM
You know this wouldnt even be a discussion if we could get some production from Crash. I hate the idea of having Capt. Jack as the only option. With Diaw doing nothing as usual, Wallace's fall off is very noticeable. Right now Kwame is producing better than Tyson did at this time last year. DJ and Felton are about equal. I don't know whats wrong with Wallace. I've never seen him act so disinterested on the court before.
stun704
02-04-2011, 05:38 PM
You know this wouldnt even be a discussion if we could get some production from Crash. I hate the idea of having Capt. Jack as the only option. With Diaw doing nothing as usual, Wallace's fall off is very noticeable. Right now Kwame is producing better than Tyson did at this time last year. DJ and Felton are about equal. I don't know whats wrong with Wallace. I've never seen him act so disinterested on the court before.
how are DJ and felton equal? DJ had better numbers then felton under larry brown earlier in the season, let-alone now.
Ghost Kat
02-04-2011, 06:02 PM
Just over all production and leadership. Basically I said that so the Felton lovers wouldnt hate on me.
110oldeast
02-04-2011, 11:12 PM
I think Gerald WAS blue collar prior to him getting his contract and prior to him making the All-Star team. I think that this shifted however and most folks have not been aware of it. I think Bonnell's coverage that made him like a star added to this and folks' perception of him. He is best as a gritty guy who gets his in transition, off putbacks, steals, etc. with some isolations worked in but not a 1st or even 2nd option on a consistent basis. Furthermore, he and J-Rich didn't exist well together, but the team thrived in Gerald's absence before struggling and slowing down when he returned. I honestly think that Henderson makes Crash more expendable. And while Jack has plenty of issues, if the team does a good enough job of not over-deferring to him, especially when he is off, he brings and ability to score and make plays that exceed's Crash's while not being as likely to miss a good chunk of games due to injury.
I actually think Henderson has the ability to provide the things Crash used to while having greater jumpshooting potential and even being better individual defender. Crash was always a great help defender, but very rarely took on the top defensive matchups. I think Henderson can mesh with Jack and DJ more as he is more low maintenance offensively in comparison to Crash who like Jack who is iso-oriented. You need some guys who are simple play guys and I think Henderson has more blending power here while having fresh legs due to his lack of utilization so far and his youth. Love his upside.
As for inferring that DJ was better as an LB pg this year than Felton last year would be wrong, especially when you look at the step back we took defensively while not moving forward offensively. Part of the pg's job is helping direct the team to the finish line. The numbers weren't really better under Larry (esp. when you consider minutes and shooting percentages) and the record was much worse. There is no point in arguing that. Ultimately, Felton could deal with Larry better than DJ and it's not a shot at DJ. It's just reality. The good thing is that Jordan brought in the coach that could help DJ play confidently and push the ball more freely which has turned things around. Otherwise, we might be headed towards a top 5 pick.
As for the topic of Crash vs. Jack, I have been as hard on Jack as anybody at times. But I would keep him over Crash as he already has a more effective old man game that won't be affected as much by aging and reduction in athleticism. The only thing that works in Crash's favor in my mind is contract. And I know that is a big factor.
The only thing that works in Crash's favor in my mind is contract. And I know that is a big factor.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/charlotte.htm
Crash makes more, and they have the same length...
110oldeast...I'm not sure how you can say Crash and JRich did no "exist " well together...
07-08 JRich per=18.4 ORtg=109 DRtg=109 PPG=21.8
07-08 Crash per=17.5 ORtg=104 DRtg=106 PPG=19.4
Those numbers were while they played a full season together...Crash did miss 20 games that year so he was also impacted by injuries more than the full year he (close to full) played with Jax....but I'll also point out that the Fine Ham Biscuit was the Head Coach...and we all know how bad he was...
09-10 S. Jackson per=15.7 ORtg=100 DRtg=103 PPG=21.1
09-10 Crash per=18.3 ORtg=113 DRtg=103 PPG=21.1
These numbers were put up with Jack here 72 games last season....Crash played 76...and we had a much better Head Coach...Crash put up very similar numbers while playing with a statistically better side-kick in Jason...but don't take my word for it you can compare to your hearts content all the stats etc. at BB Reference....here is the link...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/
110oldeast
02-05-2011, 02:58 PM
Analysis has to go beyond the numbers of individual players. It's about winning ultimately. Fantasy basketball is fine, but only as it works in conjunction with team success.
The team that year played it's best ball once they got rid of McInnis and when the wings were J-Rich and Matt Carroll when Gerald was hurt. They were getting up and down the floor and scoring in the 100 pt range and went on a 5 game win streak the 2nd game he was out after playing competitively vs. Boston and losing. When Crash returned, the progress halted and the scoring slowed down. I would have liked to see the team play out the year with J-Rich, Carroll, and Dudley rotating, as I think they would have fared quite decently as those guys were all lower maintenance scorers who completed play (i.e. kickouts, easily).
To be fair, I think that team would have been best suited running, but that was pretty much my thought from the point that they had Felton and Wallace on the team (and having J-Rich made it make even more sense then). The thing with Crash is that he can be overly one on one in his game (even in transition when you think about his 1 on 3 vs. getting it to the pg and filling the lane) while not being able to make plays for others. Jack and Crash are 2 higher maintenance "need the ball in my hands" type scorers without the capability of Wade, Lebron type guys. I think the team is better suited with one higher maintenance guy who can draw doubles and another lower maintenance scorer who can get theirs completing simple plays.
teej,
If that's the case, then I think it is a no-brainer. The bigger issue is the way the fans view Crash. The city has always had an inflated view of him in my mind from both a talent and leadership standpoint. He was a great player as a hustler, explosive player who brought excitement, but I think that folks and Gerald perceived it at a level greater than reality. People mistaked Gerald's willingness to call out everyone else in the media as leadership when it is more about self-preservation. I know many folks had strong negative opinions about the guy as a leader, but Felton always took it on the chin for the team and it's not a coincidence that when he left that leadership did (with the team quitting), as Crash was throwing DJ under the bus instead of acknowledging that he was not the primary leader for the team the way some folks thought. Adversity will often bring out folks' true colors. I'm not saying that I think Jack is a great or even good leader, but I am saying that the Crash folks fell in love with is not the same guy who remains on the team now, IMO.
I do agree with you on Ray...he always took it like a man but have quibbles with your other points...nothing major and more perception...
...I also agree that we don't have a strong leader (never particular considered Jack one) and I've always felt Crash was better in the "lead by example" which he's gotten away from...
I think the criticism regarding Crash (and Jack for that matter) regarding DJ was taken out of context by the writer who wrote the story at the time...we've discussed it in other threads...I appreciate your points though...
TheBeagle
02-08-2011, 06:50 PM
Hmmmm. Wonder if I was the only Bobcats fan who was clapping when Jack got ejected last night? Maybe when I yelled out "Get off the court, you moron, we don't need you anyway" that was a little harsh, but it was the truth, and it produced a much better team on the court.
Wouldn't do the Artest thing, but I hope we're still seriously fielding offers for Jack.
ammofan
02-08-2011, 07:00 PM
Hmmmm. Wonder if I was the only Bobcats fan who was clapping when Jack got ejected last night? Maybe when I yelled out "Get off the court, you moron, we don't need you anyway" that was a little harsh, but it was the truth, and it produced a much better team on the court.
Wouldn't do the Artest thing, but I hope we're still seriously fielding offers for Jack.
I wonder whether we have discussed anything like Jack/Nazr for Thabeet/Mayo? I wish......I love Jack and what he does for us and how he helped us get to the Playoffs, but I think we have to let him go.
Hmmmm. Wonder if I was the only Bobcats fan who was clapping when Jack got ejected last night? Maybe when I yelled out "Get off the court, you moron, we don't need you anyway" that was a little harsh, but it was the truth, and it produced a much better team on the court.
Wouldn't do the Artest thing, but I hope we're still seriously fielding offers for Jack.
Beagle...check my entry in the game thread...I thought (his ejection) gave us a great chance to win the game...his "alpha-dog-ego" routine has completely worn out on me...and the offense flowed better when he was not (being a black-hole) on the floor...
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