Higgins: "we don't want to be the 7th or 8th spot"

[Proudiddy]

So, are we tanking this season to have a lottery pick plus the NOH pick? Weird Higgins said this after MJ sent out the letter saying we are still trying to make the playoffs.

Idk about you, but when I saw this I didn't think he was talking about getting 6th or higher (especially this year), I got the impression he meant we weren't going to sit around and get the same results as last year so we'd rather blow it up now.

Still wish they would've done something with Diaw over the summer, and again, still not happy with what we got back out of our trades, but we'll see what happens...

[Marvel]

I don't want to be a 7th, 8th seed team either, not happy what we got back from our trades.

[DY_nasty]

Tanking or trying to win it all - you never want to be a 7th or 8th seed. Whats the issue?

[WrxErik]

Tanking or trying to win it all - you never want to be a 7th or 8th seed. Whats the issue?

Because the bobcats winning a title any time soon is completely unrealistic. Same goes for about 25 other NBA teams.

[TheBeagle]

Tanking or trying to win it all - you never want to be a 7th or 8th seed. Whats the issue? For a franchise in its sixth and seventh years of existence, ANY playoff spot is acceptable. Also, if in tank mode, why wait this long? Why the coaching change? Also, where is the evidence we are "trying to win it all"? Those are my issues.

[WrxErik]

For a franchise in its sixth and seventh years of existence, ANY playoff spot is acceptable. Also, if in tank mode, why wait this long? Why the coaching change? Also, where is the evidence we are "trying to win it all"? Those are my issues.

This is right on point.

[TheGayKid]

I think it is important for us to make the playoffs in general to help establish ourselves as a team that can contend, Maybe not contend for the title, but atleast contend for spots more well-known teams can get. Plus, the better we do, the more we develop a fan base...

[DY_nasty]

For a franchise in its sixth and seventh years of existence, ANY playoff spot is acceptable. Also, if in tank mode, why wait this long? Why the coaching change? Also, where is the evidence we are "trying to win it all"? Those are my issues.
I never said that we were tanking. Just that either way being a 7 or 8 seed isn't any kind of goal nor should it be a plateau. I don't think we're tanking, but I do think that Higgins and the FO realized that the most we could do with our core next year would be something along those lines. After next year, what? May as well start the process of rebuilding. The East is so bad this year... 7 games under .500 and in the playoff hunt? Thats nothing to be happy about. Thats circumstance.

Next year the East will be vastly improved. If we just sat on our hands, we'd be worse off.

[TheBeagle]

I never said that we were tanking. Just that either way being a 7 or 8 seed isn't any kind of goal nor should it be a plateau. I don't think we're tanking, but I do think that Higgins and the FO realized that the most we could do with our core next year would be something along those lines. After next year, what? May as well start the process of rebuilding. The East is so bad this year... 7 games under .500 and in the playoff hunt? Thats nothing to be happy about. Thats circumstance.

Next year the East will be vastly improved. If we just sat on our hands, we'd be worse off. Point taken, and I appreciate what the FO is trying to do if that's the case, but I don't see with what we acquired in trades we will be better off next year than if we had stood pat. We got virtually no talent in return, a couple worthless mid round picks (and among those, not even one to offset the '12 pick we gave to CHI), and saved a few bucks which will be used to sign...........?

As a fan, I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but this sure isn't looking like any rebuilding project I've ever seen.

[Proudiddy]

Tanking or trying to win it all - you never want to be a 7th or 8th seed. Whats the issue?
Because we are on that line walking between "tanking or trying to win it all." I mentioned repeatedly last night after the trades that all of them showed that the front office and franchise lacks direction. There hasn't been a clear "plan of action" anonunced and set in place, and if any foundation was laid out, we've contradicted it with our actions.

*MJ said we were going to the playoffs this year - trades franchise player for intangible draft picks of which will likely become some overseas project, and Pryzbilla. Playoffs?

*Silas says no trades are going down, happy with what we had, gonna make a run, etc. - trades happen.

*MJ sends out letter last night to try and reassure fans he has a plan and knows what he's doing. Trades targeted young players to help us continue run for playoffs this year... Really? DJ White and Cunningham are both 4s, each either lacking size or ability to play another position. We already have Diaw, Ty, Najera... So you're telling me those are the guys we were determined to get out of those trades? No... We took scraps... Like dogs... whatever they gave us.
Then Higgins comes out and says this today... So which is it? Are we trying to get in the Top 6 seeds this year? Not when you're trading assets now hoping they'll turn into something later.

That's my complaint. So someone is lying. And it clearly shows they are on different pages, and MJ can't even show up to the presser... golf and cigars must've ran over.


Because the bobcats winning a title any time soon is completely unrealistic. Same goes for about 25 other NBA teams.
This.

For a franchise in its sixth and seventh years of existence, ANY playoff spot is acceptable. Also, if in tank mode, why wait this long? Why the coaching change? Also, where is the evidence we are "trying to win it all"? Those are my issues.
This also.

[Brad]

I think sometimes it's addition by subtraction. Diaw was playing decently until the Bobcats acquired Jackson. Now that Wallace is gone, Diaw will be looked upon to score more again. Henderson is a good defender, and he'll grow into the role. I think while they'll miss Wallace, they are potentially a more balanced team. I think Pryzbilla is an upgrade over Nazr, and we've got a couple young bigs with potential.

I don't think the Bobcats will be horrible without Wallace. I think they'll be about the same. Nature abhors a vacuum. Someone will step up.

[TheGayKid]

I think sometimes it's addition by subtraction. Diaw was playing decently until the Bobcats acquired Jackson. Now that Wallace is gone, Diaw will be looked upon to score more again. Henderson is a good defender, and he'll grow into the role. I think while they'll miss Wallace, they are potentially a more balanced team. I think Pryzbilla is an upgrade over Nazr, and we've got a couple young bigs with potential.

I don't think the Bobcats will be horrible without Wallace. I think they'll be about the same. Nature abhors a vacuum. Someone will step up.


I can agree with this

[DY_nasty]

Point taken, and I appreciate what the FO is trying to do if that's the case, but I don't see with what we acquired in trades we will be better off next year than if we had stood pat. We got virtually no talent in return, a couple worthless mid round picks (and among those, not even one to offset the '12 pick we gave to CHI), and saved a few bucks which will be used to sign...........?

As a fan, I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but this sure isn't looking like any rebuilding project I've ever seen.
Its not the perfect trade. We're not going to become the new Celtics. But its a start. I like that at least we're making some sort of move and showing a general direction now. The moves of the franchise ever since the night where we traded for JRich have been nothing but reactionary and without any sort of real end game. We were going to eventually turn into Isiah's Knicks if he kept down that road... Sometimes you just need to cut your losses and start rectifying mistakes instead of digging your whole deeper.

Next year is going to be a hard one but at the same time, its the first time we'll actually have more than just 1 or 2 young guys to look forward to and a coaching staff that actually believes, and actually succeeds, in developing talent. We've already got our coach of the future lined up too. There's a plan in place for once. I'm happy for that if nothing else.

[Boomer]

So why did we wait until now to trade Gerald? Did we want to make sure that we didn't get a high draft pick?

Fuck our FO

[frontpager]

You wait now to trade Gerald because you always get the most return at the trade deadline because teams panic. The Hornets pick could be a lottery pick. They are currently 5th in the standings, however they hold only a 2 game lead over the 9th place team. We will have our lottery pick, then with possibly the Hornets we could get some serious good wing players. Burks from Colorado and Barnes from NC.. Takes care of the depth at 2 and 3 for a while

[spectre]

Its not the perfect trade. We're not going to become the new Celtics. But its a start. I like that at least we're making some sort of move and showing a general direction now. The moves of the franchise ever since the night where we traded for JRich have been nothing but reactionary and without any sort of real end game. We were going to eventually turn into Isiah's Knicks if he kept down that road... Sometimes you just need to cut your losses and start rectifying mistakes instead of digging your whole deeper.

Next year is going to be a hard one but at the same time, its the first time we'll actually have more than just 1 or 2 young guys to look forward to and a coaching staff that actually believes, and actually succeeds, in developing talent. We've already got our coach of the future lined up too. There's a plan in place for once. I'm happy for that if nothing else.

You and other fans who are proponents of rebuilding (not saying you are that...just going by this post) are ASSUMING these recent moves reflect a general direction. From where I sit all his (lollipop) moves this year have been nothing but an attempt to get his bottom line into the black.

All he did was cut some salary, and he took a lesser return in order to do it. Maybe it's a precursor to rebuilding the right way...but I SERIOUSLY doubt it. I don't think the lollipop could stand sucking for 5 years in order to rebuild.

Hell, he said himself in his (MT's) letter that he will look to spend what money he's opened up THIS offseason. Does that sound like part of a plan to rebuild?

[polarcat]

It's all wicked confusing as is always with this front office. Whether it's the DUST chip, G-Force, Okafor-Chandler, Ham Biscuit, etc., I am yet to see this organization with its' ducks in a row. No way we compete for a title this year with what we've got, so does that mean we're going to tank? Doubt it..... we are too mediocre. I'm all for a rebuild through a few moves, rather than a complete overhaul, so why say what they've been saying? Just go out and try to make the playoffs, get knocked out 4-1 in the first round, bring in talent in the offseason and go forward. We now need an All-Star on this team. DJ, T2 and Hendo are going to be awesome compliments, but we NEED a borderline superstar here. We've got the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options, now let's go out and get a stud either in free agency or the draft...... that's why you're freeing up money, right Higgins?

[WrxErik]

They freed up money to lower the debt like many have said. When was the last time we signed a big named free agent? Anyone?

[DY_nasty]

You and other fans who are proponents of rebuilding (not saying you are that...just going by this post) are ASSUMING these recent moves reflect a general direction. From where I sit all his (lollipop) moves this year have been nothing but an attempt to get his bottom line into the black.

All he did was cut some salary, and he took a lesser return in order to do it. Maybe it's a precursor to rebuilding the right way...but I SERIOUSLY doubt it. I don't think the lollipop could stand sucking for 5 years in order to rebuild.

Hell, he said himself in his (MT's) letter that he will look to spend what money he's opened up THIS offseason. Does that sound like part of a plan to rebuild?
Yeah. It does sound like an actual plan.

What has our endgame plan been since the JRich trade? Just add on little here, improve a little there, okay thats not working, lets switch things around for a little of this... and thats how we ended up with such a mucked up roster in the first place. There was absolutely no direction at all. At least with Crash being traded now, you can look at the FO and say "okay, at least they don't overvalue their players and see them for what they are".

TBH though, I don't see them spending too much in this year's offseason. Overpaying for a bottom seed in the east just didn't make sense. And it won't make that much more sense next year either. People really should realize that given our cap situation, roster, and lack of picks we were incredibly restricted. Even if there was a trade, or if someone did want to come here, it would've been impossible because we simply weren't in any situation where we could do so.

[DY_nasty]

They freed up money to lower the debt like many have said. When was the last time we signed a big named free agent? Anyone?
When was the last time we had money to do so?

[Dcarnys]

When was the last time we had money to do so?

Good call.

Imo, there's only 2 FA's this summer I would consider going after. Wilson Chandler and Marc Gasol. Other then that this looks like its a build through the draft deal, I ca live with that. Lets see OKC/Seattle can do that why can't we. Not saying there will be a Durant-esque player this year or next but theres always atleast some solid starters.

[WrxErik]

Last time I checked we had money to sign people and give monster contracts to guys like Oak. Also Bob J never seemed like the guy who wanted to spend much on this team anyways as far as free agents go.

Oh and Durant was Drafted number 2 overall. So to get a number two pick we have to suck it up and get lucky. But I guess some believe we can land a Durant type player with our two mid first rounders.

[DY_nasty]

Last time I checked we had money to sign people and give monster contracts to guys like Oak. Also Bob J never seemed like the guy who wanted to spend much on this team anyways as far as free agents go.

Oh and Durant was Drafted number 2 overall. So to get a number two pick we have to suck it up and get lucky. But I guess some believe we can land a Durant type player with our two mid first rounders.
Okafor? How many years ago was that? Also, it just highlights the issue of us overvaluing our players as well. Right after that contract was signed, our franchise was essentially hamstrung and that was years ago.

[WrxErik]

Okafor? How many years ago was that? Also, it just highlights the issue of us overvaluing our players as well. Right after that contract was signed, our franchise was essentially hamstrung and that was years ago.

Years ago? Our team is only 7 years old.

[DY_nasty]

Years ago? Our team is only 7 years old.
Yeah, years ago. That contract ate up all of your money instantly and Okafor hasn't once proven that he's come close to deserving that money. We banked on him and because of that, it severely crippled our options for years and forced a lot of reactionary moves. The franchise is young, but most of its life has been spent trying to get fix silly mistakes that were based on shortsightedness.

[Demon DeaCat]

I think the FO's plan is clear: get draft picks, clear cap space and give ourselves flexibility to pursue trades and FAs in the near future. Reasonable minds can disagree over whether or not that plan was executed properly, but I don't think it can be argued that they don't have a plan. Only time will tell if the plan works. I will say that I think the FO did as good a job as possible of rebuilding on the fly. We achieved the desired end of acquiring picks and space without completely gutting the team. While we gave up a lot in Wallace, we still have a team capable of making the playoffs.

[SWedd523]

The plan is pretty obviously to save money. They traded for two guys that were immediately cut. Two end of the bench bigs who will play behind Diaw and Tyrus. And they traded for a Center who has been constantly injured over the last year and a half who said he wanted to retire if he was traded (I know that changed recently, but still). Oh yeah, they got two picks that may or may not be a "solid" piece to the rebuilding puzzle.

[Demon DeaCat]

And it's still perfectly reasonable to save money now (i.e. clear space) as long as they're willing to spend it later, presumably on FAs. As far as Dante and DJ are concerned, no they aren't all-stars, but Diaw will be gone after next season if not before, so we will need some depth at the 4 behind TT.

And I'm not sure what the uproar is about the picks. What did you expect to get? When you trade with teams that are playoff teams, which are usually the only ones willing to make these kinds of deadline trades, the picks are typically going to be mid to late 1st round. The picks we got for GW are no worse than the pick Den got for Melo, a much better player than GW. Even with that, there's still an outside shot the NO pick could be lottery. Plus we got 2 picks, which have value in that they can be components in other trades even if we don't use them. It would've been great to get LMA back in return for GW, but I think we got about as much as we could have realistically expected.

[frontpager]

Teams arent going to give away great first round picks, especially two of them. We got a good deal in the picks we received. Has anybody looked at Dante Cunningham's stats? He is a solid player in the limited amount of playing time he received. He played in Portland's offense of slow movement and using all of the shot clock, he will only improve his stats here. We received great value for a player who could potentially be on his way down. Gerald's prime skill is athleticism, which degrades as you get older. I mean one of their picks is New Orleans.. which isnt a lock for playoffs. They are 5th in Western Conference, however they only hold 2 game lead on ninth seed. They could easily falter especially with their lack of outside shooting.

[SWedd523]

I'm not in an uproar about the picks. It just needs to be understood that these picks aren't that great ad in all likelihood wont amount to much. Too many people are looking through lollipop colored glasses and think we got a great deal when we got a mediocre deal.

[Chef]

I'm not in an uproar about the picks. It just needs to be understood that these picks aren't that great ad in all likelihood wont amount to much. Too many people are looking through lollipop colored glasses and think we got a great deal when we got a mediocre deal.

i am with you swedd as a cat's fan, but in all honesty i think this was the best we could do. there was supposedly a bidding war for him from several teams, i believe this is just about what he is worth. if you are an opposing gm/owner you are looking at a player that can bring toughness, rebounding and defense and a little offense to your team for a playoff run but he is not a #1 or #2 option, he won't carry a series if he has too and most importantly he is on the books for 3 years at 10 mil per and may get hurt at anytime but is tough enough and loves the game enough that he won't retire unless it is absolutely catastrophic.

[SWedd523]

I had no problem with trading him. At all. I just think we'd have done better in the long term had we combined him with Diop, Hammer, or even Diaw. We won't be able to start a full rebuild until we get rid of these bad contract bums on the team.

Trade Crash with trash, and buy one of those picks for $3mil like everybody else does.

[Chef]

I had no problem with trading him. At all. I just think we'd have done better in the long term had we combined him with Diop, Hammer, or even Diaw. We won't be able to start a full rebuild until we get rid of these bad contract bums on the team.

Trade Crash with trash, and buy one of those picks for $3mil like everybody else does.

don't think we could have moved diop with him. too much salary going out and crash isn't good enough by himself to warrant it. that is 18-19 mil for the next 3 years. i really do think we got just about all we could. i would be willing to bet we pushed for diop to go too, but nobody was taking that.

if we had moved faster or in tandem with cleveland i wonder if we could have moved diop, ups and NO pick to cleveland for the TPE?

this will probably not be well received but i think i may consider moving our best asset (dj) with diop for an expiring just to clear the space. dj is not going to be a superstar and diop is killing any rebuild we are trying to do. i also don't think NO is ever going to trade paul, so hanging onto dj to do that is kind of silly.

[stun704]

don't think we could have moved diop with him. too much salary going out and crash isn't good enough by himself to warrant it. that is 18-19 mil for the next 3 years. i really do think we got just about all we could. i would be willing to bet we pushed for diop to go too, but nobody was taking that.

if we had moved faster or in tandem with cleveland i wonder if we could have moved diop, ups and NO pick to cleveland for the TPE?

this will probably not be well received but i think i may consider moving our best asset (dj) with diop for an expiring just to clear the space. dj is not going to be a superstar and diop is killing any rebuild we are trying to do. i also don't think NO is ever going to trade paul, so hanging onto dj to do that is kind of silly. No, Diop expires in 2 years, we probably won't be getting chris paul, I say we keep DJ, and don't trade diop with him.

[WrxErik]

We can wait for paul to pull a Melo when he wants to go to NY and be NJ in the whole situation. Offer DJ, Henderson, (maybe 1 other player) and two or 3 first rounders, then get turned down multiple times because he won't want to sign an extension with us.

[spectre]

Crash is not over the hill. He was injured and the coaches played him while he was injured. You don't heal very fast when you keep playing/aggravating the injury. I don't care how old you are.

In the month of January after he started to heal:

10 games
39.4 mpg
0.473 FG%
0.417 3 FG%
77% from the line
10.2 RPG
3 assists
1.4 steals
0.9 blocks
17.1 PPG

Do those numbers look like someone over the hill?

He was 1st team all NBA defense LAST YEAR. He's 28 years old. He was an all star last year.

The return was shit for what we gave up.

So far as the "plan"...we'll just have to wait and see. Up til now we've seen the lollipop give up value for NOTHING other than salary relief. I'd bet anything he's not looking past the lint in his navel...but again that's going to take time to find out.

LMAO at building our foundation off of mid 1st picks. Jesus. All those teams everyone admires for rebuilding the right way? They got top picks.

[frontpager]

spectre= we had to deal him for what we got while he still had a high value. The moment Marion hit 29 his stats went down. He average 14 and 11 at age 28-29. Next year he averaged 13 and 8.. then we know what has happened since. Marion and Wallace have similar games, with wallace obviously being tougher physically, but marion a better overall scorer. Richard Jefferson saw a significant drop-off when he hit 29. went from 19 and 4 to 12 and 4. Point is: players who rely on athleticism as an the main part of their game significantly decline at a higher rate than ones who rely on a jump shot or distributing abilities. Gerald has yet to develop a jump shot that is reliable. People dont look for him to hit a J, they look for slashing and defense. His game is similar to the other two players and they decline around same age Gerald is at. He is worth the trade. Last year was first year he was healthy and he performed well. Another reason to get rid of him for good value because we received good assets in return, not liabilities (like those accounting terms)

[DY_nasty]

Crash is not over the hill. He was injured and the coaches played him while he was injured. You don't heal very fast when you keep playing/aggravating the injury. I don't care how old you are.

In the month of January after he started to heal:

10 games
39.4 mpg
0.473 FG%
0.417 3 FG%
77% from the line
10.2 RPG
3 assists
1.4 steals
0.9 blocks
17.1 PPG

Do those numbers look like someone over the hill?

He was 1st team all NBA defense LAST YEAR. He's 28 years old. He was an all star last year.

The return was shit for what we gave up.

So far as the "plan"...we'll just have to wait and see. Up til now we've seen the lollipop give up value for NOTHING other than salary relief. I'd bet anything he's not looking past the lint in his navel...but again that's going to take time to find out.

LMAO at building our foundation off of mid 1st picks. Jesus. All those teams everyone admires for rebuilding the right way? They got top picks.
Just one deal isn't going to suddenly get us what we need to right the ship, but it is a start. There'll be more to come in the next year and a half. Hopefully, they won't be quickfix trades like we've been seeing for the past few 4 years.

Wallace's good stretch but lets be real about this. Wallace at 28 is most players at 33 - He'd been hurt almost all season long and at his age... I don't want to see zombieWallace. I don't think anyone does. Besides, this draft isn't something to break your bank over. Even the top 3 picks don't look that hot. It might turn out to be the 2006 draft all over again.

[frontpager]

The 2006 NBA Draft all over again? Bargnani, Aldridge, TT, Roy, Gay, Sefolosha, Rondo, Lowry, Millsap.. I was going to argue that it wasnt that bad of a draft, however. There are alot of players from that draft who arent even in the league no more. That was a horrible draft haha.

[DY_nasty]

The 2006 NBA Draft all over again? Bargnani, Aldridge, TT, Roy, Gay, Sefolosha, Rondo, Lowry, Millsap.. I was going to argue that it wasnt that bad of a draft, however. There are alot of players from that draft who arent even in the league no more. That was a horrible draft haha.
Not only that, but there wasn't any real clear top pick at the time either

[stun704]

The 2006 NBA Draft all over again? Bargnani, Aldridge, TT, Roy, Gay, Sefolosha, Rondo, Lowry, Millsap.. I was going to argue that it wasnt that bad of a draft, however. There are alot of players from that draft who arent even in the league no more. That was a horrible draft haha.
thats the case with every draft

[Chef]

spectre= we had to deal him for what we got while he still had a high value. The moment Marion hit 29 his stats went down. He average 14 and 11 at age 28-29. Next year he averaged 13 and 8.. then we know what has happened since. Marion and Wallace have similar games, with wallace obviously being tougher physically, but marion a better overall scorer. Richard Jefferson saw a significant drop-off when he hit 29. went from 19 and 4 to 12 and 4. Point is: players who rely on athleticism as an the main part of their game significantly decline at a higher rate than ones who rely on a jump shot or distributing abilities. Gerald has yet to develop a jump shot that is reliable. People dont look for him to hit a J, they look for slashing and defense. His game is similar to the other two players and they decline around same age Gerald is at. He is worth the trade. Last year was first year he was healthy and he performed well. Another reason to get rid of him for good value because we received good assets in return, not liabilities (like those accounting terms)

i get your argument and very much value the "mileage" argument especially for players without a great jumper who rely on athleticism, but you should have at least acknowledged that marion wasn't shit without nash feeding him the ball and amare as the anchor in the paint. crash would have been marion on phoenix with ease.

[frontpager]

Marion wasn't shit without Nash or Amare? He was 3rd team all-nba 2005 and 2006. Oh and guess what, Amare didnt play in 2005-06. Marion was an integral part of that team when Gerald Wallace was still learning to play offense. Crash would have been Marion on Phoenix your right in some way, but im not sure he would have been 3rd team all NBA twice.. whats your point anyway? Marion went to a new, slower team, and declined, same said for Richard Jefferson. Gerald is going to a team that plays at a slower pace. hmmm sounds similar doesnt it.

[Chef]

Marion wasn't shit without Nash or Amare? He was 3rd team all-nba 2005 and 2006. Oh and guess what, Amare didnt play in 2005-06. Marion was an integral part of that team when Gerald Wallace was still learning to play offense. Crash would have been Marion on Phoenix your right in some way, but im not sure he would have been 3rd team all NBA twice.. whats your point anyway? Marion went to a new, slower team, and declined, same said for Richard Jefferson. Gerald is going to a team that plays at a slower pace. hmmm sounds similar doesnt it.

i should have written "i agree with your post and idea except i would like to have seen you acknowledge that marion had nash and when he didn't he fell off big time. could and probably was mileage but a huge part was not having nash spacing the floor and getting him the ball exactly where he needed it to succeed."

[Mustachio]

In my opinion, the only people upset at this trade had a hometown hero attachment to Gerald Wallace. Which is totally understandable, I just dont have it.

Look at last nights Orlando game. Gerald Henderson had a terrible! game and still had a stat line much like a lot of Gerald Wallace's. 4 pts, 4 boards, 4 steals. in less minutes.

In my opinion we got 2 draft picks and a backup center for an over the hill athlete. and cleared room for the younger still athletic version of himself.

Its a good deal and a good move. Look at Gerald Wallaces January. Out of 12 games He had 5 games in single digits and 9 games under 15 points. Only 3 games with over 8 boards, only one game over 3 assist, only 3 games with over 1 steal. That isnt the superstar some people make him out to be.

Gerald Henderson can easily replicate those numbers and productivity given the same amount of time, and hes about 9 million cheaper and its only his second year with time to improve.


Bottom line is I dont see how you can be upset with the trade as we had hit our ceiling with Wallace and it was a very very low ceiling. Like DYNasty said, it wasnt so much us making the playoffs this year as it was just "circumstance". Now we still have the ability to reach the playoffs, while gaining cap flexibility and draft picks. Winner.

[spectre]

In my opinion, the only people upset at this trade had a hometown hero attachment to Gerald Wallace. Which is totally understandable, I just dont have it.

Look at last nights Orlando game. Gerald Henderson had a terrible! game and still had a stat line much like a lot of Gerald Wallace's. 4 pts, 4 boards, 4 steals. in less minutes.

In my opinion we got 2 draft picks and a backup center for an over the hill athlete. and cleared room for the younger still athletic version of himself.

Its a good deal and a good move. Look at Gerald Wallaces January. Out of 12 games He had 5 games in single digits and 9 games under 15 points. Only 3 games with over 8 boards, only one game over 3 assist, only 3 games with over 1 steal. That isnt the superstar some people make him out to be.

Gerald Henderson can easily replicate those numbers and productivity given the same amount of time, and hes about 9 million cheaper and its only his second year with time to improve.


Bottom line is I dont see how you can be upset with the trade as we had hit our ceiling with Wallace and it was a very very low ceiling. Like DYNasty said, it wasnt so much us making the playoffs this year as it was just "circumstance". Now we still have the ability to reach the playoffs, while gaining cap flexibility and draft picks. Winner.

It's getting funny how some continue to ignore that Crash was injured and rather instead equate that to being "over the hill".

How about looking at his February numbers where...even tho he STILL wasn't fully healthy...shows that he at least was starting bounce back and heal.

Even if Henderson can reach what Crash did for us that still doesn't excuse dumping our best asset for salary relief and 2 mid 1sts.

[Mustachio]

It's getting funny how some continue to ignore that Crash was injured and rather instead equate that to being "over the hill".

How about looking at his February numbers where...even tho he STILL wasn't fully healthy...shows that he at least was starting bounce back and heal.

Even if Henderson can reach what Crash did for us that still doesn't excuse dumping our best asset for salary relief and 2 mid 1sts.


Ok, so he was injured. So if thats the excuse for his average play then we can say "hes too injury prone" and we just got 2 draft picks for an injury prone player. and by the way, thats a weak excuse. If you are hurt, dont play.

When I say over the hill, I dont mean age. Some players can hang for a long time but those guys are "basketball players" not guys who depend on athleticism for everything they get. Gerald doesnt have that jumper to fall back on, he doesnt have that deft first step or the signature move (unless you consider him barreling into a crowd of defenders getting a charge called as his signature move like i do), he doesn't have that passing game or that court vision to fall back on. He has his speed and his ever decreasing vertical to depend on and thats the first shit to go. He may have some juice left, but really, how much longer. Do you continue to wait for him to get healthy as he keeps getting older and his value keeps plummeting?

"Even if Henderson can reach what Crash did for us that still doesn't excuse dumping our best asset for salary relief and 2 mid 1sts" - Um our best asset had us as the sacrificial lamb in the eastern conference playoffs. Is it really worth getting upset about losing our best asset, if thats the best he can give us? We were going no where with Gerald as our ceiling. Crash has been on the market for at least 2 seasons now, and this is the best trade I've seen him mentioned in. Hell, a day before the real trade happened the reports were Gerald Wallace straight up for Joel Pryzbilla and most of the world believed it! The rest of the NBA doesnt value "our best asset" as much as the hometown fan does.

To me, finishing 9th in the east isnt that much different from 7th. Either way you are irrelevant. If you thought we were gonna get Carmello, Chris Paul and Lebron and two lottery picks for Gerald Wallace then I dont know what to tell you. Right now we stay in the 7th to 9th spot in the East and gained draft picks and cap space. Its a good move. Gerald had taken us just about as far as he could and I appreciate everything he brought to us while in Charlotte, but getting 2 first rounders and a backup center is not a bad deal for him.

[spectre]

Ok, so he was injured. So if thats the excuse for his average play then we can say "hes too injury prone" and we just got 2 draft picks for an injury prone player. and by the way, thats a weak excuse. If you are hurt, dont play.

Silas said himself that he "had" to play him.

But yeah...Crash's fault.


When I say over the hill, I dont mean age. Some players can hang for a long time but those guys are "basketball players" not guys who depend on athleticism for everything they get. Gerald doesnt have that jumper to fall back on, he doesnt have that deft first step or the signature move (unless you consider him barreling into a crowd of defenders getting a charge called as his signature move like i do), he doesn't have that passing game or that court vision to fall back on. He has his speed and his ever decreasing vertical to depend on and thats the first shit to go. He may have some juice left, but really, how much longer. Do you continue to wait for him to get healthy as he keeps getting older and his value keeps plummeting?

Of course you can't mean age because he's only 28 years old.

He was late developing any true basketball skills. Larry Brown was the first coach who made an effort to teach him the fundamentals.

Regardless, I won't disagree that his thing is athleticism (as well as his drive to not lose)...but he's only been playing significant minutes for 6 1/2 years. That is a grand total of 454 games.

Do people really think that less than 500 games would do in a player?

3 of the last 4 years he's logged time in at least 71 games a season and most likely this one will make it 4 out of the 5.

You just like a lot of others ignored what was really going on and have jumped to the conclusion that Crash is broken down this season when it was just him trying to play thru injury.


"Even if Henderson can reach what Crash did for us that still doesn't excuse dumping our best asset for salary relief and 2 mid 1sts" - Um our best asset had us as the sacrificial lamb in the eastern conference playoffs. Is it really worth getting upset about losing our best asset, if thats the best he can give us? We were going no where with Gerald as our ceiling. Crash has been on the market for at least 2 seasons now, and this is the best trade I've seen him mentioned in. Hell, a day before the real trade happened the reports were Gerald Wallace straight up for Joel Pryzbilla and most of the world believed it! The rest of the NBA doesnt value "our best asset" as much as the hometown fan does.

So it was Crash's fault that we got swept by Orlando?

Please.

This is the best trade you've seen. Maybe that's because the rest of the league views Jordan as an idiot? You did catch the article with Cuban laughing at us for taking back Carrroll & Nagera right?

Remember the aborted TJ Ford for Crash? The only thing that killed that was Colangelo wanting a freaking pick from us!

Maybe it's not asset we were trying to move but the gang that was trying to move him perhaps?

People believed Przybilla and a 2nd for Crash because everyone knows we are that freaking stupid.


To me, finishing 9th in the east isnt that much different from 7th. Either way you are irrelevant. If you thought we were gonna get Carmello, Chris Paul and Lebron and two lottery picks for Gerald Wallace then I dont know what to tell you. Right now we stay in the 7th to 9th spot in the East and gained draft picks and cap space. Its a good move. Gerald had taken us just about as far as he could and I appreciate everything he brought to us while in Charlotte, but getting 2 first rounders and a backup center is not a bad deal for him.

Yeah...I definitely thought we'd be getting Melo for Crash. :facepalm:

2 MID TO LATE 1st and a backup C for 20 something games. Of course we already had that backup C that we moved in another head scratching trade...but maybe our vast talent evaluators saw a hidden star in DJ White?

We moved him for an expiring contract...and THAT prompted the FO to move Nazr.

Up til this year (and ignoring the Vincent era) we had made a steady progression. I'd much rather have just built on that (go from a 45 win team to a 50, and so on) then do some half ass dumps that people think is some type of rebuilding effort that is in reality the lollipop going "Oh shit...our bottom line sucks! I can't afford this."

[Mustachio]

Its a circular argument. You think Gerald is a valuable player, I think his production can easily be reproduced by a much lower paid player. (if Henderson can come even close, and we got two draft picks out of it I just dont see how its a bad deal)

I mean if you're happy with the 7th and 8th seed and a state of perpetual mediocrity, then this trade sucks. We were not going to win a championship with Gerald Wallace as our top player period, not in this new NBA climate. So why keep pretending and spending the limit in a futile effort? I am glad we moved him while he still had any value at all.

The front office still has to prove that it can competently draft and acquire free agents. A task you believe is impossible because our team is run by a bunch of dumb suckers. But I would much much much rather have the hope of draft picks and cap space, than the ceiling of Gerald Wallace.

[spectre]

Its a circular argument. You think Gerald is a valuable player, I think his production can easily be reproduced by a much lower paid player. (if Henderson can come even close, and we got two draft picks out of it I just dont see how its a bad deal)

I mean if you're happy with the 7th and 8th seed and a state of perpetual mediocrity, then this trade sucks. We were not going to win a championship with Gerald Wallace as our top player period, not in this new NBA climate. So why keep pretending and spending the limit in a futile effort? I am glad we moved him while he still had any value at all.

The front office still has to prove that it can competently draft and acquire free agents. A task you believe is impossible because our team is run by a bunch of dumb suckers. But I would much much much rather have the hope of draft picks and cap space, than the ceiling of Gerald Wallace.

Mediocrity? How long exactly have we been in the league again?

Even if Henderson can "replace" him (which I doubt) we now don't have Hendo giving us production off the bench. Either way tho my main thing is I think the return was crap.

We've made ONE playoff appearance in our existence. After our best season last year the lollipop buys the team, freaks out over all the red ink and proceeds to dismantle what we've been doing for the past few years. It's not either championship or complete suckage; like most things it's a matter of progression. We were making progress. You don't think that with a tweak or two we could have reached 50 wins this year? A healthy (playing for a contract) Tyson Chandler, depth at the PG and a better deeper bench?

We've basically kicked it back about 3 years. Two mid to late 1sts isn't going to propel us to championship contender, and with the lollipop hating to lose just missing the playoffs year in/year out isn't going to do it either.

Very few teams win a 'ship. IMO considering how the lollipop is what we did last week did nothing to make our odds any better...and in fact I think it set us back.

[ND22]

I have to agree with Mustachio. As much as I love Gerald Wallace, he was not going to propel us any higher than the 7th seed. I also believe we overvalued him. Yes, he was an all-star last year, and he played out of his mind, but look at the team he is on now. Suddenly he is no longer the face of a franchise but the 3rd best player on the team currently 7th in the west. Now we could argue Portland would be a 4 or 5 seed in the East or they would be higher if all their players weren't breaking their legs but even when healthy no one had them competing for a championship. The point is, Gerald Wallace was a franchise player for us, but he wouldn't be for almost any other team. If he was 24 and putting up these numbers I'd say to build around him, but not at 28.

Now could Gerald start for any team? Yes. But do I think we got short-handed on what we received for him? A little bit. I think the 2 first rounders are big, even if they aren't lottery picks. Yes we've been bad at picking lottery players, but maybe we'll be better at picking late first rounders. As for the players, I wish we had gotten a younger, impact player (Matthews or Batum come to mind) but there's no way Portland makes that deal on top of the picks. The fact is we made this deal to clear cap and set us up for the future. We have a plan, and while it could be better, I'm more comfortable with it than I was with Larry Brown bringing in every veteran with a bad contract.

[ND22]

We've made ONE playoff appearance in our existence. After our best season last year the lollipop buys the team, freaks out over all the red ink and proceeds to dismantle what we've been doing for the past few years. It's not either championship or complete suckage; like most things it's a matter of progression. We were making progress. You don't think that with a tweak or two we could have reached 50 wins this year? A healthy (playing for a contract) Tyson Chandler, depth at the PG and a better deeper bench?



I do agree with this though. We should have kept Felton and Chandler.

Felton/DJ
Jack/Hendo
Wallace/Brown/Whoever
Diaw/TT
Chandler/Kwame

That's a playoff team. The problem is, we let them go. Those moves set us back, but I believe trading Wallace set us forward, not by a lot, but a little bit. It's a step in the right direction, after a few big steps back.

[ALuhrs704]

I do agree with this though. We should have kept Felton and Chandler.

Felton/DJ
Jack/Hendo
Wallace/Brown/Whoever
Diaw/TT
Chandler/Kwame

That's a playoff team. The problem is, we let them go. Those moves set us back, but I believe trading Wallace set us forward, not by a lot, but a little bit. It's a step in the right direction, after a few big steps back.
ya but to give the front office credit, tyson chander sucked last year. now whether if it was due to injury or just larry brown idk. but i know he's beasting in dallas, and id have to think its a combo of the better talent as well as coaching style. and with felton i think more than half of the fans wanted him gone after his performance vs jameer in playoffs plus i still like our PG position with the DJ and Shaun combo. but chandler definitely was the biggest loss looking in hindsight

[Dcarnys]

I do agree with this though. We should have kept Felton and Chandler.

Felton/DJ
Jack/Hendo
Wallace/Brown/Whoever
Diaw/TT
Chandler/Kwame

That's a playoff team. The problem is, we let them go. Those moves set us back, but I believe trading Wallace set us forward, not by a lot, but a little bit. It's a step in the right direction, after a few big steps back.

One, Felton didn't resign with us. He left on his own. Second I could see what you mean with Chandler. I get what you mean, I understand why we got rid of him at the time. He wasn't producing and money talks. Right now I'm just getting tired of hearing about what could of happened. We made this trade for the future. Thats what we should be worried about.

[BRNC]

Ray left...he was offered a better contract than the one he signed with the Knicks...that was his choice...

The FO picked up (what they considered) a solid chip (dust) in the hopes of turning it into a player of value...that did not happen...

Chandler has a long history of injuries now and also a history of showing up in a contract year...we would have had solid production from him this year...but I for one would not have wanted to resign him...the Mavs will overpay as they did with Damp and Haywood...but again...the FO rolled the dice with the "Dust Chip" for Chandler and hit snake-eyes...but at least they tried...

The neat thing about 20-20 hind-sight is it is never wrong...;)

[spectre]

We made this trade for the future. Thats what we should be worried about.

We hope.

I'm not one to look to the past either...but I've said it time and time and time again; WE HAVE TO STOP GIFTING OUR ASSSETS TO OTHER TEAMS WITHOUT ADEQUATE COMPENSATION.

[BRNC]

We hope.I'm not one to look to the past either...but I've said it time and time and time again; WE HAVE TO STOP GIFTING OUR ASSSETS TO OTHER TEAMS WITHOUT ADEQUATE COMPENSATION.

spectre...if there was ever a time the this FO needed to step-up it is with this draft...many long-term fans (me included) will judge trading Crash on making a solid impact on the team going forward...or prove they are clueless...

[spectre]

Ray left...he was offered a better contract than the one he signed with the Knicks...that was his choice...

The FO picked up (what they considered) a solid chip (dust) in the hopes of turning it into a player of value...that did not happen...

Chandler has a long history of injuries now and also a history of showing up in a contract year...we would have had solid production from him this year...but I for one would not have wanted to resign him...the Mavs will overpay as they did with Damp and Haywood...but again...the FO rolled the dice with the "Dust Chip" for Chandler and hit snake-eyes...but at least they tried...

The neat thing about 20-20 hind-sight is it is never wrong...;)

We didn't offer him anything this past season. Sure he should have taken the contract from 2 years ago, but since he refused that then the FO had already made the decision to move forward without him.

Regardless, a team with such short history as ours can't afford to let players walk for nothing.

I don't buy the gamble for CP3 with the DUST chip. NOLA wouldn't deal CP3 to Dallas but yet they'd do it for us for basically the same package?

I've bitched after every trade/transaction about incoming assets (or lack thereof)...so there's no 20-20 hindsight here. I've been pretty darn consistent about this FO all along.

[spectre]

spectre...if there was ever a time the this FO needed to step-up it is with this draft...many long-term fans (me included) will judge trading Crash on making a solid impact on the team going forward...or prove they are clueless...

Shame that we couldn't make that kind of gamble with a strong draft.

I'm not going to be satisfied with a borderline role player as compensation. What's really going to get me (and probably most everyone else) is when the lollipop gets a little daylight with the money situation and he brings in someone like Drew Gooden on a horrendous contract.

[BRNC]

I don't buy the gamble for CP3 with the DUST chip. NOLA wouldn't deal CP3 to Dallas but yet they'd do it for us for basically the same package?

I don't agree with this part spectre because there are lots of teams that do not want to deal with Dallas...and with Ray...yes he turned the contract down...the decision was made to wrap TT long-term and go with DJ...not a decision I agreed/agree with but the FO may have felt they had to make that decision...Ray (and none of us know) may have made it clear he was not coming back...and if he was working under the assumption he had to deal with LB another year...I don't blame him...

[Dcarnys]

I don't blame them for picking TT over Felton. Remember they gave Chicago our 2012 pick for Tyrus, not to mention hes younger. Basically he was our pick, they gave up to much for a half season rental (what it would have been).

[spectre]

I don't agree with this part spectre because there are lots of teams that do not want to deal with Dallas...and with Ray...yes he turned the contract down...the decision was made to wrap TT long-term and go with DJ...not a decision I agreed/agree with but the FO may have felt they had to make that decision...Ray (and none of us know) may have made it clear he was not coming back...and if he was working under the assumption he had to deal with LB another year...I don't blame him...

Pretty sure he didn't let that be known, and in fact he seemed somewhat hurt by the fact we wouldn't even discuss a contract with him when he was asked about that by the NY Post.

Either way...let the guy walk. Just don't let him or anyone else with value walk for NOTHING.

[BRNC]

It pissed me off about Ray...and I never would have made the trade for TT to begin with so we'd still have that pick...but it has all happened...

But, this FO is in real "crunch time" with me...I'm not renewing my STs...I have not agreed with much of anything we've done the last couple of seasons...I understand it...I just don't agree with it...so...

They'd better start getting it right...

[TheBeagle]

Mediocrity? How long exactly have we been in the league again?

Even if Henderson can "replace" him (which I doubt) we now don't have Hendo giving us production off the bench. Either way tho my main thing is I think the return was crap.

We've made ONE playoff appearance in our existence. After our best season last year the lollipop buys the team, freaks out over all the red ink and proceeds to dismantle what we've been doing for the past few years. It's not either championship or complete suckage; like most things it's a matter of progression. We were making progress. You don't think that with a tweak or two we could have reached 50 wins this year? A healthy (playing for a contract) Tyson Chandler, depth at the PG and a better deeper bench?

We've basically kicked it back about 3 years. Two mid to late 1sts isn't going to propel us to championship contender, and with the lollipop hating to lose just missing the playoffs year in/year out isn't going to do it either.

Very few teams win a 'ship. IMO considering how the lollipop is what we did last week did nothing to make our odds any better...and in fact I think it set us back. I see the world through spectre-colored lenses. I think it's borderline insane that some of you think the GW trade helps us in any meaningful way. If that's the best we could get for him, and it very well may've been, then hold on to him; sorry, but Jr is no GW, at least not yet. Long story short, this move like spectre, Swedd and others have indicated was PURELY about MJ saving money for himself. How else do you account for the dismantling of a playoff team in its 6th fucking year of existence? Chandler, an expiring, why trade him for trash? 'Cause one of them had a cut without penalty of pay clause in his salary saving MJ a few mill instantly, and instantly pocketed that money because nothing was done with the roster, that's for sure.

I was as disgusted and disappointed as anyone with the playoff debacle last spring, but even that didn't resign me to the "we're stuck in 7th/8th slots and will be first round sweeps in perpetuity" line of thought. Like spectre says, what the hell is wrong with, at the very least, attempting progression with a goddamm playoff squad? I mean, some of you acting like getting into the playoffs short of the top 4 seeds is akin to death blows my mind. I understand we're in an age of instant gratification and "win now" platitudes, but considering our franchise, and it's youth, and stunted growth under Bobby, those expectations are unrealistic, to say the least. Then again, had we kept our playoff team intact, who's to say where we'd be now. Unfortunately, thanks to our ownership/FO we'll never know the answer.

Like I stated earlier in this thread, these moves may be spun as "rebuilding" but it reeks of trying to recoup losses as quickly as possible. After all, when was the last time a championship contender was put together by dismantling its first playoff team for cheaper, less talent and mid level picks while still stuck with a contract albatross whose ass has rarely left the bench since being acquired? And no, that question isn't rhetorical.

[dnbman]

I see the world through spectre-colored lenses. I think it's borderline insane that some of you think the GW trade helps us in any meaningful way. If that's the best we could get for him, and it very well may've been, then hold on to him; sorry, but Jr is no GW, at least not yet. Long story short, this move like spectre, Swedd and others have indicated was PURELY about MJ saving money for himself. How else do you account for the dismantling of a playoff team in its 6th fucking year of existence? Chandler, an expiring, why trade him for trash? 'Cause one of them had a cut without penalty of pay clause in his salary saving MJ a few mill instantly, and instantly pocketed that money because nothing was done with the roster, that's for sure.

I was as disgusted and disappointed as anyone with the playoff debacle last spring, but even that didn't resign me to the "we're stuck in 7th/8th slots and will be first round sweeps in perpetuity" line of thought. Like spectre says, what the hell is wrong with, at the very least, attempting progression with a goddamm playoff squad? I mean, some of you acting like getting into the playoffs short of the top 4 seeds is akin to death blows my mind. I understand we're in an age of instant gratification and "win now" platitudes, but considering our franchise, and it's youth, and stunted growth under Bobby, those expectations are unrealistic, to say the least. Then again, had we kept our playoff team intact, who's to say where we'd be now. Unfortunately, thanks to our ownership/FO we'll never know the answer.

Like I stated earlier in this thread, these moves may be spun as "rebuilding" but it reeks of trying to recoup losses as quickly as possible. After all, when was the last time a championship contender was put together by dismantling its first playoff team for cheaper, less talent and mid level picks while still stuck with a contract albatross whose ass has rarely left the bench since being acquired? And no, that question isn't rhetorical.

I can understand all of this. I guess I've just been down since they let Felton go and have seen this whole season as a letdown, whether we're in the playoff race or not. As such, I'm ready for them to move virtually all of our contracts for future youth. If this trade doesn't go far to that ends, so be it. I also recognize that I don't go to many games and spend a lot of money at the arena. If that were the case, then maintaining Wallace might mean more to me. However, I just think we are sputtering this year with no sign of getting over the hump.

If nothing else, I guess I was just happy they didn't do something to add to our long term debt and mediocrity that wouldn't provide many dividends on the court.

[Marvel]

I was content on being a 6th, 7th, 8th seed if only we were adding/upgrading at C or SF, even improving our bench via trade/s. As long as we kept our young core intact DJ, TT, Henderson although i would've been open to moving Hendo for the right deal.

We make the playoffs, sure we might get swept, but at least we have a young core to build a foundation with. That's more of a sure thing then trading your face of the franchise for an expiring and mid to late 1st rounders.

[teej]

I do agree with this though. We should have kept Felton and Chandler.

Felton/DJ
Jack/Hendo
Wallace/Brown/Whoever
Diaw/TT
Chandler/Kwame


Assuming we'd pay Felton the same as NYK did, and subtracting Livingston, that adds 4.5 Million. Undoing the TC/Damp trade adds 7.2 million. That's adding 11.7 million to a payroll that, prior to the trades was at around $66 million. That puts this lineup at almost $78 million, or a total bill to MJ of about $85 million. That's $20 million more than he's paying now, for a team that AT BEST gets to the second round. A team gets about $1-2 million ticket gate for a first round playoff series, plus all the other revenues at the arena and better renewals. So let's be generous and say that two playoff series gets MJ $10 million profit. That's still $10 million more he'd lose to an already money-losing team, and there's no one in that lineup that can win you a ring. Justify that, please.

[ohara831]

Ne thing to remember guys. Not a single one of us is in that Front Office. We have no facts as to what is said or relayed between the FO and any of our current or former players. Things may be said publicly, and then later a gentlemens agreement to not discuss it further in the press can give a false impression of what really went on. Yes we know some facts, and we can all make arguments for our positions. But it would be wise to remember that we have to be careful with making assumptions.

To me, this whole thing is like politics. We all want the same thing for this team - to be a great team and an NBA Championship Contender. Much the same as politicians want the same thing for this country - to be a great and prosperous country with healthy happy citizens. In politics, people believe in taking different roads to achieve that ends - some conservative, some liberal and some moderate. The same with Bobcat fans here. We may have differiing views on how to achieve our goal, but our goal is nonetheless the same. And in the end, sometimes one group of fans were right on one issue, and on another issue the other group of fans was right. But I dare say that not one of us is always right or always wrong.

[Mustachio]

I see the world through spectre-colored lenses. I think it's borderline insane that some of you think the GW trade helps us in any meaningful way. If that's the best we could get for him, and it very well may've been, then hold on to him; sorry, but Jr is no GW, at least not yet. Long story short, this move like spectre, Swedd and others have indicated was PURELY about MJ saving money for himself. How else do you account for the dismantling of a playoff team in its 6th fucking year of existence? Chandler, an expiring, why trade him for trash? 'Cause one of them had a cut without penalty of pay clause in his salary saving MJ a few mill instantly, and instantly pocketed that money because nothing was done with the roster, that's for sure.

I was as disgusted and disappointed as anyone with the playoff debacle last spring, but even that didn't resign me to the "we're stuck in 7th/8th slots and will be first round sweeps in perpetuity" line of thought. Like spectre says, what the hell is wrong with, at the very least, attempting progression with a goddamm playoff squad? I mean, some of you acting like getting into the playoffs short of the top 4 seeds is akin to death blows my mind. I understand we're in an age of instant gratification and "win now" platitudes, but considering our franchise, and it's youth, and stunted growth under Bobby, those expectations are unrealistic, to say the least. Then again, had we kept our playoff team intact, who's to say where we'd be now. Unfortunately, thanks to our ownership/FO we'll never know the answer.

Like I stated earlier in this thread, these moves may be spun as "rebuilding" but it reeks of trying to recoup losses as quickly as possible. After all, when was the last time a championship contender was put together by dismantling its first playoff team for cheaper, less talent and mid level picks while still stuck with a contract albatross whose ass has rarely left the bench since being acquired? And no, that question isn't rhetorical.


That is all well and good if your goal is to be a playoff team. It isn't my goal as a fan to make the playoffs so that we can touch the hem of the garment of the title contenders. That to me is the definition of instant gratification. "I'll take this mediocre, circumstantial, smartest retard prize of making the playoffs in the East over at least attempting to be something greater." I have no use for that, I want nothing less than the pursuit of a championship from my front office. I have no problem with Jordan dumping salary, if he doesn't see a championship team in that salary. I saw no progression of a playoff squad you guys see. I in fact dont see how thats possible seeing as how even with Gerald Wallace we weren't in the 8th seed. We arent good enough to win a championship, so why continue on this mediocre game plan. If you put together a team of vets and 10 million guys like we had and you are only winning 40 games.... its time for a new plan. I can handle losing with youth and potential, but I cannot handle losing with old guys who have peaked.

I hope for something bigger, while maintaining our current playoff trajectory. I fully believe we can make the playoffs this year without Gerald Wallace. Now we have the flexibility and draft picks to actually make something of this under achieving team. If we make the playoffs, this is the worlds best trade right?. We weren't getting better with Wallace, so why keep him?


After all, when was the last time a championship contender was put together by dismantling its first playoff team for cheaper, less talent and mid level picks

I am a Green Bay Packers fan. I have seen a team shed its star and not only maintain but win its sports biggest prize. That team was made up of nothing but mid to late draft picks. I know its the NFL and not the NBA but it is worth a mention.

[polarcat]

As pissed as I am about the return we got for Wallace and how the FO is spinning it, I am less angry and way more positive if 3 things happen:

1) We still make the playoffs this year.
-If we still make the playoffs, then we really are no worse off in 2011 than we were before the trade deadline.

2) The New Orleans pick allows us to draft a very good starter (can be combined with our pick to move up to make this selection of a stud player).
-This is huge because a middling 18-24 pick is pretty much a bench guy/project/D-leaguer from this draft class. If that's all we get, then why even bother? Players like this do nothing for the future of the franchise (See Ajinca, Alexis).

3) We use the money that all of these lopsided trades that we've made this season (DUST, Wallace, Nazr) brings in a FA that is either a #1, #2 or #3 option on our team.
-We need a home-run player to complete the franchise like a Kevin Durant or Derrick Rose, but I don't see that player available this free agency period. Since that is the case, we need to add a 23-27 year old, athletic well-rounded player that can help elevate this franchise to the next level. I mean, this is the reason why you trade off big-money contracts in order to attract and snag a top-tier free agent, correct?

[Mustachio]

As pissed as I am about the return we got for Wallace and how the FO is spinning it, I am less angry and way more positive if 3 things happen:

1) We still make the playoffs this year.
-If we still make the playoffs, then we really are no worse off in 2011 than we were before the trade deadline.

2) The New Orleans pick allows us to draft a very good starter (can be combined with our pick to move up to make this selection of a stud player).
-This is huge because a middling 18-24 pick is pretty much a bench guy/project/D-leaguer from this draft class. If that's all we get, then why even bother? Players like this do nothing for the future of the franchise (See Ajinca, Alexis).

3) We use the money that all of these lopsided trades that we've made this season (DUST, Wallace, Nazr) brings in a FA that is either a #1, #2 or #3 option on our team.
-We need a home-run player to complete the franchise like a Kevin Durant or Derrick Rose, but I don't see that player available this free agency period. Since that is the case, we need to add a 23-27 year old, athletic well-rounded player that can help elevate this franchise to the next level. I mean, this is the reason why you trade off big-money contracts in order to attract and snag a top-tier free agent, correct?

This is it. All the talk back and forth just comes down to this.

Theres one side that likes the trade hoping this works out and one side who hate the trade who are positive this wont happen. We will have to wait and see I guess. I personally just hated the idea of paying for season tickets when you knew that the best you would get with that current team was a playoff sacrificial lamb spot. At least allow me to dream of the future, rather than just watch a predestined plan play out. But thats just me and I had absolutely zero emotional attachment to Wallace.

[Chef]

As pissed as I am about the return we got for Wallace and how the FO is spinning it, I am less angry and way more positive if 3 things happen:

1) We still make the playoffs this year.
-If we still make the playoffs, then we really are no worse off in 2011 than we were before the trade deadline.

2) The New Orleans pick allows us to draft a very good starter (can be combined with our pick to move up to make this selection of a stud player).
-This is huge because a middling 18-24 pick is pretty much a bench guy/project/D-leaguer from this draft class. If that's all we get, then why even bother? Players like this do nothing for the future of the franchise (See Ajinca, Alexis).

3) We use the money that all of these lopsided trades that we've made this season (DUST, Wallace, Nazr) brings in a FA that is either a #1, #2 or #3 option on our team.
-We need a home-run player to complete the franchise like a Kevin Durant or Derrick Rose, but I don't see that player available this free agency period. Since that is the case, we need to add a 23-27 year old, athletic well-rounded player that can help elevate this franchise to the next level. I mean, this is the reason why you trade off big-money contracts in order to attract and snag a top-tier free agent, correct?

agree with the 1st 2 points, disagree big time about the third. if we are shooting for the moon with cap space which is much better than shooting for the moon with the DUST chip and limited cap room. if the plan fails we still have a ton of flexibility unlike the DUST fiasco. we shoot for cp3 and howard in 2012. when...i mean if...that doesn't work out we still have money to sign FA's and keep building. the worst thing you can do in FA is overpay #2 and #3 options like joe johnson, rashaard lewis, carlos boozer etc. if we are clearing all this space and gaining much needed flexibility we need a bonafied #1 either draft or FA.

[Demon DeaCat]

Amen chef. I don't hate the trade, but I don't want to see us waste the flexibility we now have on a second-tier star. We've stepped out this far. Might as well shoot for the moon in 2012 or hold onto those chips until the right guy comes along.

[adam187]

Assuming we'd pay Felton the same as NYK did, and subtracting Livingston, that adds 4.5 Million. Undoing the TC/Damp trade adds 7.2 million. That's adding 11.7 million to a payroll that, prior to the trades was at around $66 million. That puts this lineup at almost $78 million, or a total bill to MJ of about $85 million. That's $20 million more than he's paying now, for a team that AT BEST gets to the second round. A team gets about $1-2 million ticket gate for a first round playoff series, plus all the other revenues at the arena and better renewals. So let's be generous and say that two playoff series gets MJ $10 million profit. That's still $10 million more he'd lose to an already money-losing team, and there's no one in that lineup that can win you a ring. Justify that, please.

I really feel there was no excuse for trading Chandler. I feel like everyone knew, as much as we all hated him, he was gonna outperform because it's a contract year for him. Hold on to him until near the trade deadline and then send him to a contender for something much more useful than just instant savings (and without taking on Carrol and Eddie). EVERYONE is desperate for a center like him this time of the year. The FO needs to have a clear plan and then have the patience to realize that plan.

There should have been no rush to get under the cap. Just look at what Denver did with Carmelo, a 3 team trade with one of those teams being able to absorb the extra money because they were under the cap, and now Denver is under the cap itself, while still getting all the benefits of having Melo play 2/3 of the season with them. We easily could have done something like that and been in a much better situation standings wise.

Even a deal like Chandler + Diop for Yao Ming's expiring and then buy out Yao would have been way better than what we did with that trade. Or a deal with OKC (before they got Perk). The FO should have held out for a little bit with Chandler. There was no need to rush getting under the cap because it doesn't count until the end of the season.

[spectre]

I really feel there was no excuse for trading Chandler. I feel like everyone knew, as much as we all hated him, he was gonna outperform because it's a contract year for him. Hold on to him until near the trade deadline and then send him to a contender for something much more useful than just instant savings (and without taking on Carrol and Eddie). EVERYONE is desperate for a center like him this time of the year. The FO needs to have a clear plan and then have the patience to realize that plan.

There should have been no rush to get under the cap. Just look at what Denver did with Carmelo, a 3 team trade with one of those teams being able to absorb the extra money because they were under the cap, and now Denver is under the cap itself, while still getting all the benefits of having Melo play 2/3 of the season with them. We easily could have done something like that and been in a much better situation standings wise.

Even a deal like Chandler + Diop for Yao Ming's expiring and then buy out Yao would have been way better than what we did with that trade. Or a deal with OKC (before they got Perk). The FO should have held out for a little bit with Chandler. There was no need to rush getting under the cap because it doesn't count until the end of the season.

Yup. My thoughts exactly. The cards were all laid for TC to have a good season...and like you said the tax isn't calculated til after the last game is played.

[Demon DeaCat]

It kind of comes down to whether you believe we traded for Damp with the hope of flipping him and getting an impact player in return or if it was just to save money. I happen to believe the former, but none of us really knows the FO's true intentions, although some of us are acting like we do.

And I'm loving the 20/20 hindsight regarding TC. He was pathetic for us most of last year. The guy is Mr. Glass. He's missed at least 30 games 3 times in his first 9 years. He got hurt again last night. Contract year or not, assuming he would have any kind of breakout year was far from a given. It should also be noted that the only times in his career when he's been effective is when he's had a hall of fame PG feeding him the ball. Neither DJ nor Felton (had he stayed) would have produced the types of results from him that CP or Kidd have. If he were here this year he would likely have been the same old Tyson "6/6" Chandler that we saw last year, that is when he was actually on the court.

[BRNC]

It kind of comes down to whether you believe we traded for Damp with the hope of flipping him and getting an impact player in return or if it was just to save money. I happen to believe the former, but none of us really knows the FO's true intentions, although some of us are acting like we do.

I've given them the benefit of the doubt concerning the "Dust chip"...it just was not as valuable as folks thought...and I 100% that none of us knows our FOs true intentions....:biggrin:

[Adam42R]

It kind of comes down to whether you believe we traded for Damp with the hope of flipping him and getting an impact player in return or if it was just to save money. I happen to believe the former, but none of us really knows the FO's true intentions, although some of us are acting like we do.

And I'm loving the 20/20 hindsight regarding TC. He was pathetic for us most of last year. The guy is Mr. Glass. He's missed at least 30 games 3 times in his first 9 years. He got hurt again last night. Contract year or not, assuming he would have any kind of breakout year was far from a given. It should also be noted that the only times in his career when he's been effective is when he's had a hall of fame PG feeding him the ball. Neither DJ nor Felton (had he stayed) would have produced the types of results from him that CP or Kidd have. If he were here this year he would likely have been the same old Tyson "6/6" Chandler that we saw last year, that is when he was actually on the court.

I think this is spot-on! I am glad I am not the only one that thought he was effin' atrocious last year and thought he was playing out of position any time he was off the bench (incl. cheering). I hadn't disliked any players of ours prior but he was the first. I think we have a better player (for Charlotte) in Kwame this year that we would have had with TC.

[spectre]

And I'm loving the 20/20 hindsight regarding TC. He was pathetic for us most of last year. The guy is Mr. Glass. He's missed at least 30 games 3 times in his first 9 years. He got hurt again last night. Contract year or not, assuming he would have any kind of breakout year was far from a given. It should also be noted that the only times in his career when he's been effective is when he's had a hall of fame PG feeding him the ball. Neither DJ nor Felton (had he stayed) would have produced the types of results from him that CP or Kidd have. If he were here this year he would likely have been the same old Tyson "6/6" Chandler that we saw last year, that is when he was actually on the court.

No hindsight here...I've been consistent throughout on Tyson Chandler.

He was by far the most basketball savvy 5 we've ever had and I absolutely wanted him back. I figured he'd finally become healthy and he would be motivated to play for another contract. A smart FO would have recognized that holding onto him until this past week would be "maximizing an asset".

I've said as much plenty of times on this forum.

[Marvel]

I didn't like TC, but the FO didn't know WTF they were doing in trading him before the season began. I was at least expecting to hold on to him till the deadline. His value would have been sky high and our options would've been broader with contenders expressing serious interest in him. The FO just rushed into it like they always do. Patience is key.