Michael Jordan defends deadline trade

[WrxErik]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6161698

This just goes to show that Jordan has to try to convince people that it was not just a salary dump. Honestly if it was such a good trade why the hell do you need to defend it. Plenty of Celtics fans were mad about losing Perkins, but you don't see their owner and GM writing letter after letter and making excuses.

Imo both trades were bullshit if he is really trying to rebuild.

[CatNation]

I'll take it over Bob Johnson. If you don't think MJ wants to win, you're wrong

[WrxErik]

I'll take it over Bob Johnson. If you don't think MJ wants to win, you're wrong

If you don't think he is trying to save money you are wrong. Just a difference of opinion. I never said either he doesn't want to win. Who doesn't want to win? Until he proves he is really trying to win I will be a skeptic of the order of his priorities.

[fuckjack]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6161698

This just goes to show that Jordan has to try to convince people that it was not just a salary dump. Honestly if it was such a good trade why the hell do you need to defend it. Plenty of Celtics fans were mad about losing Perkins, but you don't see their owner and GM writing letter after letter and making excuses.

Imo both trades were bullshit if he is really trying to rebuild.

and you would rather your owner and gm being hush about the situation? they are being criticized, it is right for them to attempt to defend their own trade rather than allowing the fans to rage without answer.

[WrxErik]

and you would rather your owner and gm being hush about the situation? they are being criticized, it is right for them to attempt to defend their own trade rather than allowing the fans to rage without answer.

I guess the difference is when your owner has actually proved he is capable of building a winner he doesn't have to respond to shit.

[Dcarnys]

Hey atleast hes coming out and telling the media (and fans) what the deal is. Good move on his part.

[CatNation]

I guess the difference is when your owner has actually proved he is capable of building a winner he doesn't have to respond to shit.

sorry he hasn't turned us into a perennial contender in all of his ONE year as majority owner. how is he supposed to build you a winner if you won't let him build his own team without ripping him? this is still basically Bob Johnsons core. This move is one step in letting him actually build HIS team the way HE wants it. now isn't the time to spend, I agree with him. get some guys worth spending on first

[Dcarnys]

sorry he hasn't turned us into a perennial contender in all of his ONE year as majority owner.

Touche

10char

[Proudiddy]

I agree with Erik for the most part. I'm not saying MJ isn't trying to win either, but I do wonder what his priority is right now. And when you rebuild you don't trade an expiring for an expring in order to waive the incoming expiring. You also don't trade away a fair-market value contracted former all-star (who happens to be your franchise player) for a half-injured role player and two borderline 15-man roster guys. That's not how I saw the Sonics/Thunder rebuild.

[CatNation]

I agree with Erik for the most part. I'm not saying MJ isn't trying to win either, but I do wonder what his priority is right now. And when you rebuild you don't trade an expiring for an expring in order to waive the incoming expiring. You also don't trade away a fair-market value contracted former all-star (who happens to be your franchise player) for a half-injured role player and two borderline 15-man roster guys. That's not how I saw the Sonics/Thunder rebuild.

How did the Sonics rebuild then? They went looking to rebuild the Allen/Lewis team, they traded Allen (who is on a much higher level than Wallace ever will be) for a pick and Wally Z. They traded Lewis, who at the time was a 26/27 year old averaging 22 ppg, basically same tier player as Wallace for ONE second round pick. They lucked up in the draft and got Durant. We aren't going to be able to go the Sonics rebuild model by holding on to Wallace and gunning for 40 wins every year.

[Proudiddy]

How did the Sonics rebuild then? They went looking to rebuild the Allen/Lewis team, they traded Allen (who is on a much higher level than Wallace ever will be) for a pick and Wally Z. They traded Lewis, who at the time was a 26/27 year old averaging 22 ppg, basically same tier player as Wallace for ONE second round pick. They lucked up in the draft and got Durant. We aren't going to be able to go the Sonics rebuild model by holding on to Wallace and gunning for 40 wins every year.

Wally was actually a pretty good player, and was a much better return than anything we got back in our trades, considering the level of talent we sent out. Yes, Ray Allen is a future hall-of-famer, Crash is a great player, but not on that level... But still, he was just an all-star last year, and we got back borderline rotational players back for him. Wally was a pretty good player himself in his prime, so they got much better returns on their deal there. As far as Rashard, they got the 2nd rounder in a sign and trade, because he was leaving either way. And yes, they hit on Durant. But, they also hit on Westbrook, Ibaka, Maynor (in trade), and a few others. So that wasn't coincidence, it's called having a front office with a plan and a clear direction and they knew what they were looking for and acted on it. The Sonics/Thunder hired people who knew what the f*ck they were doing for personnel, not their buddies they go out and pull skeezers with. I'm willing to eat crow if DJ White comes in here and averages a double-double for the next 5-10 years, or if Cunningham or Pryzbilla stick around for longer than this year as contributors... But, my point is, we have drafted poorly and made poor personnel decisions since our inception and even moreso since MJ became majority owner and took full control over the front office. The Mavs trade is still inexplicable and inexcusable, which a team like the Spurs or Thunder would've never even discussed. Depending on what comes of the draft picks, this trade with Crash could end up almost just as bad (or great, but I doubt it).

We can all discuss this forever, but I think it's just one of those things that despite our shared love of our Bobcats will continue to be a spot of disagreement (not just us, but across the board with everyone).

[CatNation]

The main thing is, they got their 2 best players at the #2 and #4 spots in the draft. If we kept on the same track we were on, we wouldnt be picking that high for a while. Even now we still might not be bad enough to be a top 5 pick level team next year. I don't see draft rebuilds taking a lot of skill particularly, the NBA draft is mostly luck. Look at the 06 draft, in some way we were lucky even though we made one of the worst picks in NBA history. If it wasnt for picking Ammo we'd be saddled with Brandon Roy's broken knees on a max contract, or stuck in low mediocrity paying Rudy Gay 16mil per till 2015. Just a dud of a draft. We just need to get lucky and get our Durant.

[stun704]

The main thing is, they got their 2 best players at the #2 and #4 spots in the draft. If we kept on the same track we were on, we wouldnt be picking that high for a while. Even now we still might not be bad enough to be a top 5 pick level team next year. I don't see draft rebuilds taking a lot of skill particularly, the NBA draft is mostly luck. Look at the 06 draft, in some way we were lucky even though we made one of the worst picks in NBA history. If it wasnt for picking Ammo we'd be saddled with Brandon Roy's broken knees on a max contract, or stuck in low mediocrity paying Rudy Gay 16mil per till 2015. Just a dud of a draft. We just need to get lucky and get our Durant.
Harrison. Barnes.

[CatNation]

http://www.niubie.com/up/2007/12/noooooo.jpg

I said our DURANT. aka a guy who shoots 50% from the field and averages 25/11/2/2/2 as a college rookie, not a guy who does half of all that on a worse team

[stun704]

http://www.niubie.com/up/2007/12/noooooo.jpg

I said our DURANT. aka a guy who shoots 50% from the field and averages 25/11/2/2/2 as a college rookie, not a guy who does half of all that on a worse team
that would call us getting the number 1 pick. however the only way we'll get our "durant" with how the team is currently constructed is finding a gem in the rough in the draft. I think Harrison Barnes has all the potential in the world, he just needs to learn the fundamentals and mechanics to attain it.

[CatNation]

He has the potential to be Luol Deng. Theyre basically clones.

[WrxErik]

Here is this difference. Sonic/thunder legitimately blew it up and knew they were going to suck and land a solid draft pick. What we did just makes no sense other than to save money. Same goes for the Tyson trade. I don't get why it is so hard to understand. It makes even less sense when we are in the middle of a playoff run. If Jordans main goal was to rebuild Jackson and a few others would also be gone right now and we would have at least maybe got 1 young prospect back. instead we got shit picks and expirings. If we are going to build for a championship you would of done everything you could to get shit contracts off this team asap and know we are going to tank and suck so our pick would actually be worth something, not dump a former all star and still say we are shooting for the playoffs. talk about contradicting your self MJ. Sorry you bought into an investment that is way over your head. Teams that want to win are usally over the luxury tax and know you are going to have to shell out money to win. If you would have kept Felton and Tyson (if tyson would have played at the level he is playing now) and brought in another solid bench player (pref SF) you cannot tell me that our team would not be a Solid team right now. Kwame is playing solid so you have Tyson Kwame and Nazr at C to throw at dwight. Two solid PGs. Hendo stepped it up. Maybe it is just me but we are a top five team in the east and I would feel as close to a contender as you can get without landing a Superstar. Call me crazy but that is a deep team that can compete, but that is not how our team looks because Jordan did not want to pay for it. Do you really think we are going to get that much better than that with cap space and some picks?

[CatNation]

You are completely rewriting history bro. They didn't completely blow it up, then land the solid draft pick. They played out the entire season with Ray and Lewis, finished with 31 wins, and lucked up in the lottery to #2. They didnt blow up their team, aka trading Ray Allen, until draft night AFTER getting Durant IIRC

[Dcarnys]

Quite honestly its a matter of coaching right now. Even if were "rebiulding" or making a playoff push the Staff we have is great. They can work with talent (as we see with Jackson and Wallace) as well as develop it (Hendo, DJ). You draft them and there willing to work, barring injury it can be special.

[stun704]

He has the potential to be Luol Deng. Theyre basically clones.
the comparisons are bs most of the time, the same site that made that comparison says wilson chandler would become the next joey graham :facepalm:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/wilson-chandler

or acie law would be the next chauncey billups :facepalm:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/acie-law

scouts were saying Barnes would be the next Kobe Bryant before the beginning of the season. IMO he will be the next harrison barnes.

[WrxErik]

You are completely rewriting history bro. They didn't completely blow it up, then land the solid draft pick. They played out the entire season with Ray and Lewis, finished with 31 wins, and lucked up in the lottery to #2. They didnt blow up their team, aka trading Ray Allen, until draft night AFTER getting Durant IIRC

My bad I should have looked into it a bit more. At the same time this helps prove my point that the trades we made were about saving money because we could have waited until the end of this year or next and did exactly what the sonics did.

Also we had our chance before this season started to have a "contender" but what changed between then and now? This is what I mean MJ has proven he has no true direction and is just spouting BS to make the fans and his wallet happy.

[CatNation]

the comparisons are bs most of the time, the same site that made that comparison says wilson chandler would become the next joey graham :facepalm:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/wilson-chandler

or acie law would be the next chauncey billups :facepalm:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/acie-law

scouts were saying Barnes would be the next Kobe Bryant before the beginning of the season. IMO he will be the next harrison barnes.

honestly I didn't even read the draft.net comparison, I haven't used that site since I discovered draftexpress however many years ago it was. He literally just looks exactly like Deng, same body, same average athleticism, same lack of ability to create offense and minimal driving ability. At this point he looks like Julius Hodge add 30 pounds and subtract 50% of the killer instinct.

[CatNation]

My bad I should have looked into it a bit more. At the same time this helps prove my point that the trades we made were about saving money because we could have waited until the end of this year or next and did exactly what the sonics did.

Also we had our chance before this season started to have a "contender" but what changed between then and now? This is what I mean MJ has proven he has no true direction and is just spouting BS to make the fans and his wallet happy.

what was our chance before this season to have a contender?

[ohara831]

The Sonics also lucked into Durant when Portland took Oden instead. Kinda the reverse for us when Orlando opted for Howard and left us Okafor.

Seems like the majority of people MJ needs to "defend" this move with are some of the posters here. Looks like the majority of people I read both here and at RGM seem to feel the deal was the right thing to do and will work to the benefit of the Bobcats. But time will prove it out. I dont think anyone's mind will be changed over the rest of this season. We will just have to see what happens as Hendo starts, see who we end up getting with the draft picks obtained and then see if the trade was good or bad. We really wont know a true final answer until we see the 2013 draft and if Portland's pick is near Lottery or late in the 1st. But by then, we should already have a pretty good idea about how this trade panned out. And I for what dont need MJ defending it to me. I agreed with it.

[SWedd523]

Cat, as long as you understand that you don't build a franchise off of one #20 pick in a shit draft and one future #20 pick then we're cool.

[Proudiddy]

Cat, as long as you understand that you don't build a franchise off of one #20 pick in a shit draft and one future #20 pick then we're cool.

This. My biggest problem with the trade and any optimism surrounding them (besides not getting obvious talented youth back from other teams). I've said before, after the Top 10, the draft value drops off significantly. You're just as likely to hit on a player signing him undrafted as you are making one of these picks.

[ohara831]

You may not find many Grade A Superstars from #20 and back, but you can find some very good players in the last 1/3 of the 1st round who can become very important starters and bench players that give you a chance at being a contender in the East. Some from the last 10 years taken from #20 and back in the 1st round:
2008 - Nicolas Batum
2007 - Jared Dudley, Wilson Chandler, Rudy Fernandez, Aaron Brooks
2006 - Rhondo
2005 - Petro, Maxiell, David Lee
2004 - Kevin Martin, Jameer Nelson
2003 - Kendrick Perkins, Josh Howard
2002 - Crash, Tony Parker
2001 - Darren Collison, Taj Gibson

I know that the vast majority of players taken in that time frame are players who come off the bench or are minor starters, but the teams who are good year after year always seem to find quality late in the 1st round. So the players are there. It just takes the right people to evaluate and recognize the talent and then help the potential become reality. Granted, the Bobcats history in this has been spotty at best. It is not a fair and accurate representation to say that the 1st rounder will be an awesome player just because he is drafted in the bottom 1/3 of the 1st round, but it is also not fair to assume they will be a crap player. The players are there. It is just up to the team to find them. The players we take in 2011 and 2013 draft may not be superstars, but they can certainly prove to be a huge factor in our future success. So why not wait and see before you decide to sh-t all over them.

[SWedd523]

Never once did I dispute the fact that talent can be taken that late. The point I need to continuously make, however, is that you don't build a franchise with any of those players. Not if you want to be a contender. Why is that so hard for everyone to understand?

[BRNC]

Never once did I dispute the fact that talent can be taken that late. The point I need to continuously make, however, is that you don't build a franchise with any of those players. Not if you want to be a contender. Why is that so hard for everyone to understand?

The only yhing I see for those picks is the ability to combine them and move up...use them for a team wanting to bail down...that's really the best mileage we could get...if we can't do that then they are what they are...darts thrown at the universe of luck...

[SWedd523]

The only yhing I see for those picks is the ability to combine them and move up...use them for a team wanting to bail down...that's really the best mileage we could get...if we can't do that then they are what they are...darts thrown at the universe of luck...

Exactly. And not that it's a bad thing, it's just a little silly to expect them to make us something special unless we get supah dupah lucky.


I'd be all for packaging both of them to get our pick back from Chicago so we aren't held in limbo. One lottery pick is more valuable than two #20s.

[coachcdobbs]

Wally was actually a pretty good player, and was a much better return than anything we got back in our trades, considering the level of talent we sent out. Yes, Ray Allen is a future hall-of-famer, Crash is a great player, but not on that level... But still, he was just an all-star last year, and we got back borderline rotational players back for him. Wally was a pretty good player himself in his prime, so they got much better returns on their deal there. As far as Rashard, they got the 2nd rounder in a sign and trade, because he was leaving either way. And yes, they hit on Durant. But, they also hit on Westbrook, Ibaka, Maynor (in trade), and a few others. So that wasn't coincidence, it's called having a front office with a plan and a clear direction and they knew what they were looking for and acted on it. The Sonics/Thunder hired people who knew what the f*ck they were doing for personnel, not their buddies they go out and pull skeezers with. I'm willing to eat crow if DJ White comes in here and averages a double-double for the next 5-10 years, or if Cunningham or Pryzbilla stick around for longer than this year as contributors... But, my point is, we have drafted poorly and made poor personnel decisions since our inception and even moreso since MJ became majority owner and took full control over the front office. The Mavs trade is still inexplicable and inexcusable, which a team like the Spurs or Thunder would've never even discussed. Depending on what comes of the draft picks, this trade with Crash could end up almost just as bad (or great, but I doubt it).

We can all discuss this forever, but I think it's just one of those things that despite our shared love of our Bobcats will continue to be a spot of disagreement (not just us, but across the board with everyone).

I could'nt agree more with what you said. The Dallas trade is unbelievable and winning franchises dont make deals like that.

And I'll eat my words if DJ White or Cunningham come in here and do work... but Im extremely skeptical. These are the same clowns that dumped Dampiers contract and couldnt work out SOME sort of a deal where we would get some talent back for what was probably the most valuable expiring contract in the league.

Our front office is FAR from SEA/OKC's by the way. They shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentence. What has Rod Higgins ever done? What has MJ ever done as an executive?

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Harrison Barnes.Harrison Barnes is nowhere near ready to play with the big boys in the NBA. A pick of him for the next draft would set us back several years once again. I would take Jimmer Fredette before I would take Barnes. Many think of Jimmer as another Adam Morrison but the reality is that Jimmer is much more emotionally stable than was Adam. That said I doubt we take Jimmer because of what happened with the last white boy scoring phenom " Adam Morrison" that we drafted.

Harrison Barnes may one day turn out to be a great basketball player but his skill level and ability at this time are not good enough for the NBA. Let us see how Harrison does in the tournament. If he is a key piece to a UNC run than maybe he shows something he has not shown thus far and becomes NBA ready.

As far as our trades go I am not all together overly enthused about the way we went about beginning to rebuild but the rebuilding is not done and I do think that this will all work out regardless. Something had to be done in regards to rebuilding and I commend MJ on knowing this and taking a step in that direction.

[SWedd523]

Jimmer over Barnes?



Cocaine is one hell of a drug

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Jimmer over Barnes?



Cocaine is one hell of a drugWhat is Harrison Barnes doing in NCAA basketball that makes you think he is a better propect? I guarantee that Jimmer Fredette ends up 10x the NBA player than Harrison Barnes. By the way I am a Tarheel fan. Of coarse I say that only if Harrison Barnes foolishly comes out for the NBA draft after his freshaman year. He is not ready to play NBA basketball and will hinder his NBA future if he comes out.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Jimmer over Barnes?



Cocaine is one hell of a drugJust like Gerald Henderson needs to go cause he sucks..:D

[WrxErik]

what was our chance before this season to have a contender?

We would have had a deep ass team that would have actually been healthy unlike the year before. Also it would have given younger guys another year to develop, look what henderson has done now since he actually gets minutes.

Why do you think Larry was so pissed. MJ pretty much told him I am going to trade and not resign some players so I want you to do more with less. How exactly does that help you build a contender?

My point is if MJ would have spent the money this past offseason we could have had a really solid team right now that the year previous was the #1 defensive ball club that made a first time playoff appearance. When you make the playoffs for the first time you want to build on that not disassemble what got you there.

I mean it is going to take a lot of time to rebuild a team through the draft and free agency that is even close to the same level as to what we could have had this season.

[CatNation]

Cat, as long as you understand that you don't build a franchise off of one #20 pick in a shit draft and one future #20 pick then we're cool.


No doubt, but I'm not quite sure why you think shipping off a glorified 3rd option level player should immediately net us contender level pieces. Thats nor how it works. Like I said, Sonics got Jeff Green and Wally Z for RAY ALLEN and a 2nd round pick for Rashard Lewis in their rebuild. If you want to rebuild in the draft, you are going to have to REALLY suck for a while. Some of you don't seem to get that.

[Marvel]

You may not find many Grade A Superstars from #20 and back, but you can find some very good players in the last 1/3 of the 1st round who can become very important starters and bench players that give you a chance at being a contender in the East. Some from the last 10 years taken from #20 and back in the 1st round:
2008 - Nicolas Batum
2007 - Jared Dudley, Wilson Chandler, Rudy Fernandez, Aaron Brooks
2006 - Rhondo
2005 - Petro, Maxiell, David Lee
2004 - Kevin Martin, Jameer Nelson
2003 - Kendrick Perkins, Josh Howard
2002 - Crash, Tony Parker
2001 - Darren Collison, Taj Gibson

I know that the vast majority of players taken in that time frame are players who come off the bench or are minor starters, but the teams who are good year after year always seem to find quality late in the 1st round. So the players are there. It just takes the right people to evaluate and recognize the talent and then help the potential become reality. Granted, the Bobcats history in this has been spotty at best. It is not a fair and accurate representation to say that the 1st rounder will be an awesome player just because he is drafted in the bottom 1/3 of the 1st round, but it is also not fair to assume they will be a crap player. The players are there. It is just up to the team to find them. The players we take in 2011 and 2013 draft may not be superstars, but they can certainly prove to be a huge factor in our future success. So why not wait and see before you decide to sh-t all over them.

Difference being, you WON'T find any players of that caliber in THIS years draft.

lol@ Maxiell and Petro though. Maxiell was good for a minute, Petro... WTH.

[Marvel]

Y'all can't deny that MJ's words and actions are in total opposition to each other. Like Erik pointed out, MJ lacks direction.

[CatNation]

Difference being, you WON'T find any players of that caliber in THIS years draft.

lol@ Maxiell and Petro though. Maxiell was good for a minute, Petro... WTH.

sure you will, they exist in almost every draft. 2010 was the exception

[CatNation]

Y'all can't deny that MJ's words and actions are in total opposition to each other. Like Erik pointed out, MJ lacks direction.

I deny it, I think he has found his direction. I think when we called to inquire about Deron, Utah told us, "hey Wallace and DJ is a pretty good offer, what kind of picks do you have to offer?"

MJ realized stockpiling picks is the only way to get anywhere in this league as a small market team, whether its by trading them for a star or getting young players. I'm excited. I think we'll grab a couple more picks in the offseason

[SWedd523]

No doubt, but I'm not quite sure why you think shipping off a glorified 3rd option level player should immediately net us contender level pieces. Thats nor how it works. Like I said, Sonics got Jeff Green and Wally Z for RAY ALLEN and a 2nd round pick for Rashard Lewis in their rebuild. If you want to rebuild in the draft, you are going to have to REALLY suck for a while. Some of you don't seem to get that.
I never said we should get a lottery pick out of the deal. Just that if he's rebuilding (as he claims) then he's going about it in the wrong way, i.e. the slow way. Now that we moved Crash without attaching a bad contract to him, we're going to have to wait for them to expire. It doesn't have to be Diop. Moving Diaw would have been fine, moving Hammer would have been fantastic (still can't believe we traded an expiring for him LOL)


Getting out of bad contracts helps you rebuild a LOT faster than mid 1st round picks.

[CatNation]

The problem is, nobody wants Diaw, Diop, Jackson, Carroll, even with Crash included without taking back a bad contract like Calderon or something. You are still overrating his value.

[SWedd523]

The problem is, nobody wants Diaw, Diop, Jackson, Carroll, even with Crash included without taking back a bad contract like Calderon or something. You are still overrating his value.
How do you know that?

[Marvel]

I deny it, I think he has found his direction. I think when we called to inquire about Deron, Utah told us, "hey Wallace and DJ is a pretty good offer, what kind of picks do you have to offer?"

MJ realized stockpiling picks is the only way to get anywhere in this league as a small market team, whether its by trading them for a star or getting young players. I'm excited. I think we'll grab a couple more picks in the offseason

Hmm, reading a lot of the fans reactions in response to the trades, they brought in to MJ's words at the beginning of the season when he expressed his desire to make the playoffs. Those fans are skeptical now after trading away our franchise player for role players (2 more power forwards than we need) an expiring and 2 late 1st rounders.

[CatNation]

How do you know that?

Because thats how it happened.