Interesting snippet from an Oakley article

[teej]

Derek page of Hoopsworld has a good piece up today on Oakley, read it here: http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18946

In the article, he mentioned this, which I though may shed a little light on what happened Thursday




While it endears him to most, Oakley's brash style and straight-forward attitude hasn't always been what Bobcats' players have necessarily wanted to hear. Earlier this season after a 101-92 loss to the Dallas Mavericks, Oakley and former Bobcat Gerald Wallace had to be separated after getting into a heated exchange.

[Dcarnys]

Woah!! :o
That explains alot.

[Proudiddy]

lol wouldn't it just be the cherry on top to find out we traded Gerald for crap because he didn't get along with MJ's buddies?

[teej]

lol wouldn't it just be the cherry on top to find out we traded Gerald for crap because he didn't get along with MJ's buddies?

Gerald hasn't gotten along with multiple people. He called out DJ, Tyson, Sam, Larry, and a few others. Maybe he wasn't so perfect after all?

And Oakley has done more actual coaching than anyone outside Larry with Crash. His work with Kwame is COTY worthy, except he's an assistant.

[Proudiddy]

I'll admit, if he's the driving force behind Kwame's improved play, he deserves all the credit in the world. And I don't think Crash was perfect, a lot of guys don't get along at some point during the season, but in my experiences, it's most often team leaders that are the ones involved in more arguments with teammates because of their position, they're kind of diplomats.

But, I am happy to have Oak here, he demands toughness.

[spectre]

Gerald hasn't gotten along with multiple people. He called out DJ, Tyson, Sam, Larry, and a few others. Maybe he wasn't so perfect after all?

Seriously? Now we're on to Crash being a locker room problem?

Including that previous idiot doesn't really reinforce the concept either.

Oakley having to be separated from anyone shouldn't be front page newsworthy. I imagine there's a long list that share the honor.

Refresh my memory...when did he call out Larry Brown?

[teej]

I'll admit, if he's the driving force behind Kwame's improved play, he deserves all the credit in the world.

He is. I've gone early to a couple games and watched the shootaround at 5:30, and Oak and Kwame (and sometimes Naz would join them) come out and work one-on-one for about 15-20 minutes after everyone else has gone into the locker room. And Oak could still play if he wanted to, because he beasted Kwame at least 2 out of every 3 plays.


And I don't think Crash was perfect, a lot of guys don't get along at some point during the season, but in my experiences, it's most often team leaders that are the ones involved in more arguments with teammates because of their position, they're kind of diplomats.

But, I am happy to have Oak here, he demands toughness.

I think Oak is more of a leader than Crash. Crash may have been co-captain, but he wasn't a leader. Jack is a leader, Ray was a leader, hell even TC could have been a leader when healthy. Crash defers, that's not what a leader does.

Don't get me wrong, I love and respect everything Crash has done, but he's not a leader, so he shouldn't be getting into fights with assistant coaches.

[teej]

Seriously? Now we're on to Crash being a locker room problem?

Including that previous idiot doesn't really reinforce the concept either.

Oakley having to be separated from anyone shouldn't be front page newsworthy. I imagine there's a long list that share the honor.

Refresh my memory...when did he call out Larry Brown?

I never said he was a locker room problem, just not the angel we wanted him to be.

Idiot or not, he was still the coach. Crash was a player. It wasn't to the Rip Hamilton level, but it's still not good leadership.

Sure, there probably is. But we're talking about a team's "star" player and face of the franchise, I think that's newsworthy, especially since Oak doesn't even work with the wings.

Right after LB was fired, Crash (and Jack, and DJ) pretty much threw him under the bus. Deservedly, yes, but still not classy.

[spectre]

I never said he was a locker room problem, just not the angel we wanted him to be.

Idiot or not, he was still the coach. Crash was a player. It wasn't to the Rip Hamilton level, but it's still not good leadership.

Sure, there probably is. But we're talking about a team's "star" player and face of the franchise, I think that's newsworthy, especially since Oak doesn't even work with the wings.

Right after LB was fired, Crash (and Jack, and DJ) pretty much threw him under the bus. Deservedly, yes, but still not classy.

Just because he was "coach" (or assistant coach for that matter) doesn't make him god. You were around during that season right? The janitor could have done a better job than him. EVERYONE quit on the idiot.

How do you know Oakley wasn't getting into Crash's face and forcing the issue? From the article we don't...so maybe we shouldn't rush to an opinion?

If Oakley was the aggressor do we expect Crash or any other player to just lay down in a fetal position and cry for Mom? Of course not. No self respecting man would.

I don't think Crash threw LB under the bus. I remember him saying things that were true...like Silas' style of coaching was more liked by players. Who wouldn't realize that anyway; Silas is what's called a "player's coach"!.

I don't even remember DJ throwing him under the bus. There were pointed questions and I remember him smiling during those times...but I don't remember him actually dissing LB at all.

Jack I think went a little far in one comment, but even that wasn't "bad".

Guess it depends on what your definition of "thrown under the bus" is.

I haven't seen anyone call Crash perfect or an angel. Just because some of us aren't happy with the (crap) return the lollipop got for him doesn't mean we think he was the "bestest player to ever live" nor are we "crying" about it.

Yeah...I'm getting a little tired of these exaggerations.

[teej]

I've had multiple shitty coaches in high school and middle school, who clearly didn't know what they were doing. But I, and my teammates, shut our mouths and played. And we weren't getting paid, either. You ALWAYS support your team, and that includes the coaching staff. Keep it among the team, don't let anyone else know.

I know Sam sucked. A lot. But that doesn't mean you have the right to lock him out or anything else. He's the coach, you're the player. Keep your thoughts to yourself, and to management. Don't let it get out. Ever. Even after he's gone, in LB's case too, just ignore the past and focus on the future. Let those of us on the message boards and at the water cooler decide who was better. If MJ says that Charlie Sheen is the coach, you damn well play your heart out for Charlie Sheen, even if he thinks that you can have 12 men on the court and that touching the ball with your hands is a penalty. You're getting paid to play basketball. If you want to ignore the plays and do it yourself, fine, but don't talk about it.

As far as what may or may not have happened, I'm pretty sure Oak's not going to get in your face without reason. He may go a bit overboard when he does, but you have to do (or not do) SOMEthing to earn the wrath he has. And the only thing he would be able to criticize a non-big for would be effort, listening to the coaches, or attitude. Which, by the way, have at one point or another been attached to Crash.

And this (to me, at least) has nothing to do with what we got in return for Crash or whatever else happened, just that it made trading him easier.

[Marvel]

A heated exchange between Oak and Wallace is NOT NEWS. It's certainly not something to call Wallace out on. Players threw Sam Vincent under the bus, don't see fans having problems with how that was handled.

[Marvel]

I know Sam sucked. A lot. But that doesn't mean you have the right to lock him out or anything else. He's the coach, you're the player. Keep your thoughts to yourself, and to management. Don't let it get out. Ever. Even after he's gone, in LB's case too, just ignore the past and focus on the future.


WHAT? Players do it all the time dude.

[teej]

WHAT? Players do it all the time dude.

Doesn't make it right. Al-Queda kill innocent civilians "all the time, dude." Doesn't make it right.

What do you gain by trashing a coach? Nothing. Just be a professional.

[ohara831]

Doesn't make it right. Al-Queda kill innocent civilians "all the time, dude." Doesn't make it right.

What do you gain by trashing a coach? Nothing. Just be a professional.


Very true. This sport can use a few more examples of players acting professional. They are out there and just dont get recognized for their actions as it is the ones calling attention to themselves that get the headlines.

[spectre]

I've had multiple shitty coaches in high school and middle school, who clearly didn't know what they were doing. But I, and my teammates, shut our mouths and played. And we weren't getting paid, either. You ALWAYS support your team, and that includes the coaching staff. Keep it among the team, don't let anyone else know.

You have to realize grown men in a job situation (and this is very much a job) are a little different than middle/high school kids under a teacher/coach right?

[teej]

You have to realize grown men in a job situation (and this is very much a job) are a little different than middle/high school kids under a teacher/coach right?

Yes. They should be infinitely more professional since they're more mature and they're the ones being paid.

[spectre]

Yes. They should be infinitely more professional since they're more mature and they're the ones being paid.

Yeah...that's how life really works.

[teej]

Yeah...that's how life really works.

I said should, not are.

[BlockParty]

This just reinforces that the AAU mentality hurts the fundamentals of the game. It's not a knock on AAU coaches, their job is to get victories, and they usually don't have the same group of kids more than a few years. But the reality is, most Pro-athletes were the best player on every team they played on prior to making their Pro-roster. They aren't accustomed to 'being accountable'. In college (and probably high school) they had tutors spoon feed to them, they had trainers telling them what to eat and how to nurse an injury back to health. At some point they actually have to mature and figure out how to man up and perform even if the cards are stacked against them.

[Chef]

This just reinforces that the AAU mentality hurts the fundamentals of the game. It's not a knock on AAU coaches, their job is to get victories, and they usually don't have the same group of kids more than a few years. But the reality is, most Pro-athletes were the best player on every team they played on prior to making their Pro-roster. They aren't accustomed to 'being accountable'. In college (and probably high school) they had tutors spoon feed to them, they had trainers telling them what to eat and how to nurse an injury back to health. At some point they actually have to mature and figure out how to man up and perform even if the cards are stacked against them.

players in all professional sports have been tuning out or rebelling against coaches for as long as pro sports have been around. employees do the same thing to their bosses (adults/pros do these things) it is just that sports are unique in that the players are more valuable than the coaches (immediate supervisor)

[BlockParty]

it is just that sports are unique in that the players are more valuable than the coaches (immediate supervisor)

And they play for a union that protects them from not performing. The don't really have a risk getting fired (some exception, but extreme).

Players may have always rebelled against their coaches to a degree, but they didn't see themselves online, on ESPN, on twitter, etc 24/7. So very likely they didn't know how they compared with other athletes outside of their region.

[Adam42R]

players in all professional sports have been tuning out or rebelling against coaches for as long as pro sports have been around. employees do the same thing to their bosses (adults/pros do these things) it is just that sports are unique in that the players are more valuable than the coaches (immediate supervisor)

I am not so sure that's unique to a sports franchise - or better said, not so sure that we can ever positively identify what drives the success of any company; the employees or management. One could argue that just a change in management (coaching staff) had a huge effect on this team. One could make the counter argument that losing one key foundation employee (Crash) has had a huge effect on morale. You can say these things but we're not going to know the effect of one or the other definitively, we can't, there are just too many outliers.

One thing is interesting though, just like the guy that is let go or goes to another company might be a most beloved co-worker/employee to the extent that his coworkers/bosses will have no idea how he can be replaced, it never takes too long for folks to look through how he was doing his job and start to question something.

May be an interesting snippet but I wonder how much it's about finding a flaw in that guy that we think is irreplaceable as a means to make us (or maybe his teammates) move on.

[Chef]

And they play for a union that protects them from not performing. The don't really have a risk getting fired (some exception, but extreme).

Players may have always rebelled against their coaches to a degree, but they didn't see themselves online, on ESPN, on twitter, etc 24/7. So very likely they didn't know how they compared with other athletes outside of their region.

coaches can and do try benching a guy (basically firing) but usually lose the battle if he is a superstar. just look at the detroit situation. bottom line if you are an owner people pay to see the players not the coaches.

[BlockParty]

coaches can and do try benching a guy (basically firing) but usually lose the battle if he is a superstar. just look at the detroit situation. bottom line if you are an owner people pay to see the players not the coaches.

I'm more blaming the system/culture we find ourselves in (as a sports society). I know it's impossible in team sports, but I would love to see the players paid like they are in the PGA. If you win, you get paid, if you suck during the week....you are paid accordingly (even if you are thought to be one of the premier players). It sickens me that we are stuck with Diop's contract, from a profit/loss scenario, his injury was the best thing that could happen this year (short of a trade) because MJ gets reimbursed a substantial amount of his pay from a workers' compensation perspective.

[BRNC]

Block....MJ would only receive compensation if the franchise has an insurance policy on Diop/injury compensation...if they don't he's getting paid for being injured...period...but LB "had to have him"...so we're stuck...

[BlockParty]

Block....MJ would only receive compensation if the franchise has an insurance policy on Diop/injury compensation...if they don't he's getting paid for being injured...period...but LB "had to have him"...so we're stuck...

I'm sure they have injury insurance on Diop (and all the players). It has no impact on the Cap (unless it's a career ending injury and they go through the appeal process w/ the NBA), so the impact on the fans is no-impact, we just know with only slightly more certainty that he isn't going to help us....it was a near lock during training camp, the injury just left no doubt.

[teej]

Adam, finding this had nothing to do with trying to justify trading Crash. I accepted the need to trade him or Jack long ago, and I'm satisfied with the return. It was just surprising to me.

[dnbman]

I'm more blaming the system/culture we find ourselves in (as a sports society). I know it's impossible in team sports, but I would love to see the players paid like they are in the PGA. If you win, you get paid, if you suck during the week....you are paid accordingly (even if you are thought to be one of the premier players). It sickens me that we are stuck with Diop's contract, from a profit/loss scenario, his injury was the best thing that could happen this year (short of a trade) because MJ gets reimbursed a substantial amount of his pay from a workers' compensation perspective.

That's genius. Players could sign base salaries regardless of win/loss. Institute a hard cap for those salaries. The Lebrons still get paid a base more than the Diops. However, after that, they have to win games in order to increase their pay.

Make this happen!

[teej]

That's genius. Players could sign base salaries regardless of win/loss. Institute a hard cap for those salaries. The Lebrons still get paid a base more than the Diops. However, after that, they have to win games in order to increase their pay.

Make this happen!

Won't happen in a unionized sport, but it works terrifically in both the PGA and Nascar. Problem is, in a union, the 15th man gets as much say as LeBron.

[SWedd523]

I'm sure they have injury insurance on Diop (and all the players). It has no impact on the Cap (unless it's a career ending injury and they go through the appeal process w/ the NBA), so the impact on the fans is no-impact, we just know with only slightly more certainty that he isn't going to help us....it was a near lock during training camp, the injury just left no doubt.
Diop didn't qualify for the insurance.

[teej]

Diop didn't qualify for the insurance.

He didn't qualify for NBA cap insurance, if that's what you mean. His contract is insured seperately, with an independent company. They're paying his salary this season.

Amar'e is the only recent example I can think of where insurance wouldn't cover an injury because no one was willing to insure it.

[dnbman]

Won't happen in a unionized sport, but it works terrifically in both the PGA and Nascar. Problem is, in a union, the 15th man gets as much say as LeBron.

Not necessarily. For example, since there would be a hard cap-- with essentially a fixed number being paid to all teams-- win money could be divided by ratio of base salary.

You could play around with the ratio as well to get an agreeable number.

For example, let's just say a win gets $100. $40 of that could be divided evenly. The other $60 could be divided by percentage of salary. That way, there's a significant reason to win for all players, but bigger contributors get paid more money.

[Adam42R]

Adam, finding this had nothing to do with trying to justify trading Crash. I accepted the need to trade him or Jack long ago, and I'm satisfied with the return. It was just surprising to me.

teej, I wasn't referring to you with the justifying the trade comment, I was referring to the timing of the article.

[teej]

teej, I wasn't referring to you with the justifying the trade comment, I was referring to the timing of the article.

Got ya. My B.