Operation rebuild: 2013

[Chef]

by now we have pages and pages of posts and re-posts about everyone's take on the deadline trade and the new direction mj has taken this team. what's done is done. those that agree you are drinking the kool aide. those that disagree, you suck you sky is falling fake fans.

your new mission use the 2012 free agency class to get us a championship here is mine with hopefully realistic numbers. assumptions from me: we move all long term salary including diop with the exception of tyrus with a combinations of trades of players like jackson and most or all acquired draft picks.

here are my four wants and their salaries and contracts:
cp3 max deal
howard max deal
kg 4 years 35 mil
allen 3 years 20 mil


yes we overpay for kg and allen but it get us a championship and that is all i want. if we have more money and he will take a low offer as a friend. i would gladly take on crash for a championship run at 2 years 18 mil.

ladies and gentlemen your 2012-13 nba champions
cp3/liv
allen/hendo
crash/?
kg/tt
howard/kwame


let's see your teams, don't have to go total FA route

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=FreeAgents-11-12

[ammofan]

That team would be friggin amazing.

[kickazzz2000]

lulz .

[SWedd523]

55 million to 2 guys who will be nearing 40 years old by the end of their deals? Yowzah!

[kickazzz2000]

CP3 and DH12 to max deals, of course, would be ideal, if they would sign here.


I'd find someone else to fill out the 2-4 spots though. Really.

I may be a homer, but Harrison Barnes would be GREAT at the 3 spot ;)

[Marvel]

More like 2013.

[The Prodigy]

That team would be WAY over the cap, right?

Anyway, if we could manage to get Dwight and CP3, we wouldnt need another great player. We would have what no other top team has, a dominant Center and Point Guard. We could fill the rest of the roster with Hendo, Barnes, and Tyrus and we would be set.

[Twan's Kin]

Just say no to Kevin Garnett.

[Chef]

55 million to 2 guys who will be nearing 40 years old by the end of their deals? Yowzah!

i forgot to mention jordan finally does 2 things:

1. use his GOAT status to wink/nod deals with kg and allen. they will retire after the first championship voiding their deals
2. go way into the luxury tax. i am banking on no hard cap.

not sure how to do it by signing FA's but this is what we need to do.

cp3
allen/hendo
crash
kg/tt
howard

who the hell scores on that team? we could possibly have 4 1st and 2nd team all defense players.

[Chef]

55 million to 2 guys who will be nearing 40 years old by the end of their deals? Yowzah!

don't care. i want a freaking ring and to be able watch my team on the friggin tv. espn won't be blacked out so i can watch them at least 40 times in stunning HD.

[Dcarnys]

Someones cuggin on Kool aide here. I would love to see that though, I don't know who wouldn't.

[WrxErik]

Sorry Chef but that is hitting the pipe, not drinking the Kool Aid.

[TattoodCats4life]

Here's the issue with that whole thing...
CP3 - wont come here unless someone big is here first.
DH12 - same
Allen - we'd REALLY have to over pay - honestly I think Jax with CP3 and howard would do just fine, not being the #1 option (i.e. having to toss up 30+ shots/night).
KG - do we really want to go dirty to get it done. I think TT would be fine.

[Chef]

Here's the issue with that whole thing...
CP3 - wont come here unless someone big is here first.
DH12 - same
Allen - we'd REALLY have to over pay - honestly I think Jax with CP3 and howard would do just fine, not being the #1 option (i.e. having to toss up 30+ shots/night).
KG - do we really want to go dirty to get it done. I think TT would be fine.

don't think cp3 and DH aren't talking about this. they would both know they are coming here together. both would become the face of the jordan brand and get DH out of that deal with adidas and those god awful shoe lines and styles.

i would much rather over pay allen for 2 years than repay jax. allen is the perfect compliment, jax is not. i want no chemistry issues and want recent playoff experience. jax has been on losing teams too long.

as for kg, if dirty = a ring then let's do it. hell we already have oak as a coach and he makes kg look like a saint on the court. plus, kg will bring the team attitude and focus we need. he needs to teach DH how to win, be mean and quit crying like a bitch all the time. plus, kg is there to keep TT in line too.

the more i think about it, and really it is not like i want to think about the current cats team after wed night's puke fest, we will get both allen and kg on the cheap because brand jordan will sign them to a stupidly absurd endorsement deal for them to both sign 2 year 14 mil deals.

[Demon DeaCat]

I don't know about KG and Ray just because I'm not sure how much they'd even help us 2 years from now, but I don't think the CP/Dwight scenario is that unrealistic.

Although they're in denial now, at some point NO is going to accept the reality that CP isn't re-signing there. Once they do, they will trade him rather than lose him for nothing, and for once, we will have the necessary pieces to pull off one of these blockbuster trades (thanks to the GW deal that so many here hate). We will be able to offer them 2 1sts, a talented young PG in DJ, Boris' $9 mil expiring, and probably their choice of Hendo or TT.

I don't think that scenario is reaching at all. Now I agree CP won't re-sign with us unless we can reel in another star, but if we can get CP here it's not at all unrealistic to think we could land Dwight.

[BigMike]

CP3 - wont come here unless someone big is here first.
DH12 - same


Thats a simple fix man, give them a big fat contract for 4 years, with the 3rd year a team option and the 4th a player option, and let them know that they can ask us to not option them that 3rd year and let them walk. So it is a 2 year deal unless things are working well. They are both 25 so even if it does not work then they leave at 27 still in their primes and go where ever they want.

[adam187]

CP3 and Dwight would be wonderful, obviously, but it's doubtful they'd want to sign here for whatever reasons.

In my mind, the FO should have their eye on one guy and one guy only: Stephen Curry. He is putting up some great numbers in Golden State and from a lot of what I hear, wouldn't mind playing for the Bobcats at all. He's also beloved around the area and would probably become the Bobcat's most popular player overnight. Doesn't make us a contender right away, but at least makes us exciting, and it's easy to see Curry being a key guy on any championship squad.

Now his contract doesn't end until at least after 2012/2013, so we'd have to trade for him, but I don't think I'm alone in saying I wouldn't mind doing whatever it takes to get him. I would try to push for the 2 firsts we just acquired along with Hendo for Curry. I don't think that's too far of a push. Then try to flip DJ for Jason Thompson and Marcus Thornton and we'd have a young, exciting, defensively challenged team.

Hope you guys like it.

[Dcarnys]

CP3 and Dwight would be wonderful, obviously, but it's doubtful they'd want to sign here for whatever reasons.

In my mind, the FO should have their eye on one guy and one guy only: Stephen Curry. He is putting up some great numbers in Golden State and from a lot of what I hear, wouldn't mind playing for the Bobcats at all. He's also beloved around the area and would probably become the Bobcat's most popular player overnight. Doesn't make us a contender right away, but at least makes us exciting, and it's easy to see Curry being a key guy on any championship squad.

Now his contract doesn't end until at least after 2012/2013, so we'd have to trade for him, but I don't think I'm alone in saying I wouldn't mind doing whatever it takes to get him. I would try to push for the 2 firsts we just acquired along with Hendo for Curry. I don't think that's too far of a push. Then try to flip DJ for Jason Thompson and Marcus Thornton and we'd have a young, exciting, defensively challenged team.

Hope you guys like it.

I like it, then again I've been on the Steph Curry bandwagon for awhile now. You could even use him as a smaller 2. My only reservation is I don't know who has the bigger upside, Curry or Augustin.

[stun704]

RENAME THE TEAM TO THE FLIGHT SO IT CAN GO INTO EFFECT BY THE '13 SEASON
The PERFECT situation would be like this.. We don't trade for CP3 we sign him in the offesason so we can keep our pieces. Resign DJ to a resonable contract, resign Hendo to a resonable contract. move up to draft harrison barnes this season. draft a young back up C in the 2nd round. TANK hard next season, Trade Jax to Chicago so we can get our pick back [ so it'll prolly be a shortened season next year pending locking out] get the first pick draft Austin Rivers, He has the MJ mentality.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/211755/Austin_Rivers_Wants_To_Destroy_LeBron_One_Day

If paul or steven silas doesn't resign, Get Doc Rivers as the head coach, then GO all in on '12

Sign CP3, Dwight Howard &[to a reasonable contract] Crash, then any "ring chasers"

our new squad would be

CP3/DJ/Livingston
Austin Rivers/Hendo/[Ring Chaser]
Barnes/Wallace/[Ring Chaser]
TT/Diaw[Signed to a resonable contract][Crag Smith] Signed in FA
Dwight/Kwame/[Keith Benson]

that should be our FO's goal, and that would be the best team in the league hands down.

WHY RENAME TO THE FLIGHT? THE BOBCATS HAVE HAD A NEGATIVE HISTORY THUS FAR, RENAMING THE BOBCATS TO THE FLIGHT WOULD BE A NEW BEGINNING. AND IT WOULD BE A GREAT MARKETING MOVE SINCE THIS TEAM WILL BE HANDS DOWN THE DEEPEST IN THE LEAGUE AND A POTENTIAL DYNASTY, THE NEW LOGO SHOULD BE JORDANS JUMPMAN OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. IT WILL MAKE JORDAN WAY MORE MONEY, AND IT'LL CAUSE RISE TO MILLIONS OF BANDWAGON FANS NATION WIDE MAKING OUR MARKET EVEN BIGGER SINCE SO MANY PEOPLE ALREADY LIKE THE JORDAN BRAND APPAREL AND SHOES.

IF JORDAN REALLY WANTS TO BE AN ENTREPRENEUR, HE WILL WORK OUT THE TV DEALS, AND HE WILL SET UP A TV DEAL ALA THE BULLS HAD IN THE 90'S WITH WGN, WHERE THE WHOLE NATION COULD WATCH THEIR GAMES.

[Pepperz]

RENAME THE TEAM TO THE FLIGHT SO IT CAN GO INTO EFFECT BY THE '13 SEASON
The PERFECT situation would be like this.. We don't trade for CP3 we sign him in the offesason so we can keep our pieces. Resign DJ to a resonable contract, resign Hendo to a resonable contract. move up to draft harrison barnes this season. draft a young back up C in the 2nd round. TANK hard next season, Trade Jax to Chicago so we can get our pick back [ so it'll prolly be a shortened season next year pending locking out] get the first pick draft Austin Rivers, He has the MJ mentality.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/211755/Austin_Rivers_Wants_To_Destroy_LeBron_One_Day

If paul or steven silas doesn't resign, Get Doc Rivers as the head coach, then GO all in on '12

Sign CP3, Dwight Howard &[to a reasonable contract] Crash, then any "ring chasers"

our new squad would be

CP3/DJ/Livingston
Austin Rivers/Hendo/[Ring Chaser]
Barnes/Wallace/[Ring Chaser]
TT/Diaw[Signed to a resonable contract][Crag Smith] Signed in FA
Dwight/Kwame/[Keith Benson]

that should be our FO's goal, and that would be the best team in the league hands down.

WHY RENAME TO THE FLIGHT? THE BOBCATS HAVE HAD A NEGATIVE HISTORY THUS FAR, RENAMING THE BOBCATS TO THE FLIGHT WOULD BE A NEW BEGINNING. AND IT WOULD BE A GREAT MARKETING MOVE SINCE THIS TEAM WILL BE HANDS DOWN THE DEEPEST IN THE LEAGUE AND A POTENTIAL DYNASTY, THE NEW LOGO SHOULD BE JORDANS JUMPMAN OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. IT WILL MAKE JORDAN WAY MORE MONEY, AND IT'LL CAUSE RISE TO MILLIONS OF BANDWAGON FANS NATION WIDE MAKING OUR MARKET EVEN BIGGER SINCE SO MANY PEOPLE ALREADY LIKE THE JORDAN BRAND APPAREL AND SHOES.

IF JORDAN REALLY WANTS TO BE AN ENTREPRENEUR, HE WILL WORK OUT THE TV DEALS, AND HE WILL SET UP A TV DEAL ALA THE BULLS HAD IN THE 90'S WITH WGN, WHERE THE WHOLE NATION COULD WATCH THEIR GAMES.


This would be the PERFECT scenario.

[Boomer]

This thread is fantasy land

[teej]

If ANY of that idea comes to fruition, it's a good day.

[ND22]

A lot of this is VERY wishful thinking. One of our main focuses though should be to trade Jack and Diaw in the offseason.

Trade Jack because he won't want to rebuild with us. Trade Diaw because he is not fitting with this team at all. It'll be tough with years left on both of their contracts, but we need to get something, anything for them back.

Another thought to discuss, what do you all think of bringing in Wilson Chandler? Assuming he doesn't resign with Denver, I think the guy would be a great fit on this team. He's a all around good player, and he's basically entering his prime.

[teej]

Uh, guys. We can't trade ANYONE until the new CBA is signed. Not during the draft, not after.

[ND22]

Uh, guys. We can't trade ANYONE until the new CBA is signed. Not during the draft, not after.

Ah, yeah forgot. Well whenever the CBA is signed, that's the path I'd take.

[Chef]

Uh, guys. We can't trade ANYONE until the new CBA is signed. Not during the draft, not after.

i thought we could trade up to the draft. if the draft is on this cba and not the upcoming, all trades and activities up until July 1 are ok. right?

if that is true, then diaw is more valuable than ever. if the season is shortened by half like last time, he is effectively a 4.5 mil expiring and not a 9 mil to the owner.

[Chef]

Another thought to discuss, what do you all think of bringing in Wilson Chandler? Assuming he doesn't resign with Denver, I think the guy would be a great fit on this team. He's a all around good player, and he's basically entering his prime.

this is exactly the type of player we should not go for. he is a fine player and ultimately will make a great #2 or 3 option on a championship team. we don't need to overpay for this type of player in FA. if the plan is build through FA, we need to land a legit #1 option.

[skratch]

Im be a realistic,were not getting KG, hes most likely going to end his career with Boston same with Allen, Were definitely not getting Dwight Howard he wants to be on a winning team, Were not getting cp3 unless Jordan promises him everlasting life and if Jordan grants him this then what do we do with Augustin? and were going to need somebody else to satisfy CP3, If we really want to REBUILD then get rid of jack because its not rebuilding if we dont get rid of our top scorer,plus hes not the type of player u rebuild a team around anyway, trade him for a center/forward, release Kwame ASAP PLEASEEEE!!, since we got rid of jack, 2012 OJ mayo will be available, lets pick him up make him our Star SG,(and pray he lives up to his HS hype he once had) Augustin will still be running point, then throw all our money at andrew bynum from the lakers, so it looks like this in the 2012-2013 season, PG-Augustin, SG-Mayo, SF-??? PF-Tyrus Thomas C-Andrew Bynum, now we got a 4-5th spot playoff team(which is good enough to bring in fan support and tv deals, thats all we need really just to show we have a winning brand, cause right now jordan is losing money) legggooo!! we can fill the SF with what Jack was worth, were going to be lookin like the ATL Hawks!! and our 6th man will be gerald henderson/Livington, the rest of the bench will consist of the dumb mistakes we do in the draft with these picks will have coming up, oh yeah and release Naejro(w/e) and pickup derek fisher(he wont come) just to provide discipline and leadership/tutor augustin, cause its too many young cats on this team none of them know how to win (just like our current squad)


Better Yet if not andrew bynum lets get KEVIN LOVE.(Face of The Bobcats franchise)

Other candidates: Corey Brewer, J.R Smith, Thaddus Young, Greg Oden, etc

[Twan's Kin]

or maybe just sign Samuel Dalembert as a Center and we'll automatically contend for a 5th seed in the playoffs.

[teej]

Facepalm at the last two posts. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

[WAM9]

Im be a realistic,were not getting KG, hes most likely going to end his career with Boston same with Allen, Were definitely not getting Dwight Howard he wants to be on a winning team, Were not getting cp3 unless Jordan promises him everlasting life and if Jordan grants him this then what do we do with Augustin? and were going to need somebody else to satisfy CP3, If we really want to REBUILD then get rid of jack because its not rebuilding if we dont get rid of our top scorer,plus hes not the type of player u rebuild a team around anyway, trade him for a center/forward, release Kwame ASAP PLEASEEEE!!, since we got rid of jack, 2012 OJ mayo will be available, lets pick him up make him our Star SG,(and pray he lives up to his HS hype he once had) Augustin will still be running point, then throw all our money at andrew bynum from the lakers, so it looks like this in the 2012-2013 season, PG-Augustin, SG-Mayo, SF-??? PF-Tyrus Thomas C-Andrew Bynum, now we got a 4-5th spot playoff team(which is good enough to bring in fan support and tv deals, thats all we need really just to show we have a winning brand, cause right now jordan is losing money) legggooo!! we can fill the SF with what Jack was worth, were going to be lookin like the ATL Hawks!! and our 6th man will be gerald henderson/Livington, the rest of the bench will consist of the dumb mistakes we do in the draft with these picks will have coming up, oh yeah and release Naejro(w/e) and pickup derek fisher(he wont come) just to provide discipline and leadership/tutor augustin, cause its too many young cats on this team none of them know how to win (just like our current squad)


Better Yet if not andrew bynum lets get KEVIN LOVE.(Face of The Bobcats franchise)

Other candidates: Corey Brewer, J.R Smith, Thaddus Young, Greg Oden, etc

There are a lot of points to argue with here but I'll take the Kwame Brown one...why in the world would you want to release a very productive, MINIMUM SALARY guy? Just curious...

[skratch]

There are a lot of points to argue with here but I'll take the Kwame Brown one...why in the world would you want to release a very productive, MINIMUM SALARY guy? Just curious...

putting up 7ppg and 6rebs is very productive? hes taking up space, hes trash, hes the joke of the nba, hes brings the franchise value down, defenders laugh at this man downlow, hes the reason why ppl laugh when you say the "bobcats" hes the reason why u cant selll tickets, hes the reason why nobody takes jordan seriously and the fact that he keeps giving the man second chances and bringing him everywhere he goes. do i really have to explain why u should get rid of kwame brown? dont even bench him release him, he doesnt even need to be on the floor, every player in the draft this year is better then kwame brown, u know ur team is awful when u got kwame starting


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP4RT-vv-o

[ND22]

this is exactly the type of player we should not go for. he is a fine player and ultimately will make a great #2 or 3 option on a championship team. we don't need to overpay for this type of player in FA. if the plan is build through FA, we need to land a legit #1 option.

Well I never meant Chandler as a #1 option. He'd be a piece of the puzzle, someone to compliment our #1. If he comes at a fair price, why not sign him?

[WAM9]

putting up 7ppg and 6rebs is very productive? hes taking up space, hes trash, hes the joke of the nba, hes brings the franchise value down, defenders laugh at this man downlow, hes the reason why ppl laugh when you say the "bobcats" hes the reason why u cant selll tickets, hes the reason why nobody takes jordan seriously and the fact that he keeps giving the man second chances and bringing him everywhere he goes. do i really have to explain why u should get rid of kwame brown? dont even bench him release him, he doesnt even need to be on the floor, every player in the draft this year is better then kwame brown, u know ur team is awful when u got kwame starting


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP4RT-vv-o

Make a list of all the league minimum guys who are averaging what Kwame is. Then take into account how many double-doubles he has had. Then take into account the fact that he has played much, much better under Silas/Oakley. Again, make a list...

That list won't be very long I can assure you.

How many 2nd chances are you saying Jordan has given him? How many places are you saying he has done this with Kwame in? Bringing him in to Charlotte for the league minimum has been a solid move.

[Felton for Prez]

putting up 7ppg and 6rebs is very productive? hes taking up space, hes trash, hes the joke of the nba, hes brings the franchise value down, defenders laugh at this man downlow, hes the reason why ppl laugh when you say the "bobcats" hes the reason why u cant selll tickets, hes the reason why nobody takes jordan seriously and the fact that he keeps giving the man second chances and bringing him everywhere he goes. do i really have to explain why u should get rid of kwame brown? dont even bench him release him, he doesnt even need to be on the floor, every player in the draft this year is better then kwame brown, u know ur team is awful when u got kwame starting


In reverse order, the team is awful, hence blow up mode. Kwame is not the cause of that, he's the effect. Per dollar, he's debatably been our best player.

The Bobcats being a league wide laugh started well before Kwame. The inability to sell tickets has nothing to do with Kwame whatsoever (see first sentence of this post). Kwame does have something to do with Jordan's ability to judge talent but that's related to the draft.

I am assuming Kwame kicked your dog or something because that's a lot of unjustified disdain for a guy that's actually contributed from time to time. When we signed him, I didn't think he'd ever leave the bench.

[SWedd523]

DJ and Durant are on ESPN Classic right now for Texas.

[SWedd523]

DJ and Durant are on ESPN Classic right now for Texas.

And Sherron, Julian Wright, Kareem Rush, Dorrell Arthur, Damion James, Darnell Jackson, Mario Chalmers, etc.

[Chef]

Well I never meant Chandler as a #1 option. He'd be a piece of the puzzle, someone to compliment our #1. If he comes at a fair price, why not sign him?

FA does not result in players at good value. chandler will most likely sign a 5 year deal for all of the reasons you listed. he is a good, productive player but not for us at 7-9 mil range which is what he will get. i wouldn't want to commit to him for any more than 5 mil per season.

[skratch]

Make a list of all the league minimum guys who are averaging what Kwame is. Then take into account how many double-doubles he has had. Then take into account the fact that he has played much, much better under Silas/Oakley. Again, make a list...

That list won't be very long I can assure you.

How many 2nd chances are you saying Jordan has given him? How many places are you saying he has done this with Kwame in? Bringing him in to Charlotte for the league minimum has been a solid move.

Im not making a list cause i can careless i dont settle for less i will never say kwame is a good move because he doesnt help the team. if you been to bobcats games even the workers say kwame trash they be laughing with me, In what ways has he improved? of course his stats are going to improve under silas cause he doesnt have larry brown benching him & smacking him around anymore calling him garbage in his face, hes now the starter only because there's no center or forward on the bobcats, kwame shouldnt be starting in this league and the world knows that, i've been to 3 games this year under L.brown, and 4 under silas, i've only seen him play once under brown and hes still the same old kwame, nothing changed, he's soft, he never finishes, if he could finish he could average 15 points, but too bad hes that awful, just because he has games where he might get 10 points doesnt mean hes not kwame brown, every 100 games or against some srubs he'll put up a double-double, jordan should look into selling the team because hes not going to be able to land a upgrade over the great beast Kwame brown.

[SWedd523]

That post has so much fail in it.

[LiquidWayno]

Kwame hate by Wiz fans? Fair. By Bobcats fans, not at all. Curry is a realistic choice for someone to shoot for down the load. I don't want to get my Bobcats fantasy world blown out of proportion, reality is enough of a letdown. I'd draft well \and not take on big contracts outside of All-Stars. That's simplistic but realistic for this team. We are a shitty market so we will not be attracting multiple free agent All-Stars.

[skratch]

Kwame hate by Wiz fans? Fair. By Bobcats fans, not at all. Curry is a realistic choice for someone to shoot for down the load. I don't want to get my Bobcats fantasy world blown out of proportion, reality is enough of a letdown. I'd draft well \and not take on big contracts outside of All-Stars. That's simplistic but realistic for this team. We are a shitty market so we will not be attracting multiple free agent All-Stars.

if i was a wiz fan i wouldnt be a on a bobcats forum, and bobcats fans dont hate on kwame? not when im at the games everybody shows frustration when he cant finish, theres a difference between fan & groupie

[WAM9]

Im not making a list cause i can careless i dont settle for less i will never say kwame is a good move because he doesnt help the team. if you been to bobcats games even the workers say kwame trash they be laughing with me, In what ways has he improved? of course his stats are going to improve under silas cause he doesnt have larry brown benching him & smacking him around anymore calling him garbage in his face, hes now the starter only because there's no center or forward on the bobcats, kwame shouldnt be starting in this league and the world knows that, i've been to 3 games this year under L.brown, and 4 under silas, i've only seen him play once under brown and hes still the same old kwame, nothing changed, he's soft, he never finishes, if he could finish he could average 15 points, but too bad hes that awful, just because he has games where he might get 10 points doesnt mean hes not kwame brown, every 100 games or against some srubs he'll put up a double-double, jordan should look into selling the team because hes not going to be able to land a upgrade over the great beast Kwame brown.

I'll help you since research doesn't seem to be your thing...

Kwame is averaging 8 points and 8 rebounds under Silas with 6 double doubles and multiple rebounding games in the 13-18 range. Now take a look around the league. How many centers are averaging numbers that are much different than that?

* There are only 20 players in the entire league that are averaging 8 or more rebounds a game and according to NBA.com, only 7 of them are centers.

* Of those 7 centers (Howard, Gasol, Horford, Chandler, Cousins and Stoudamire) what is the average salary for these players? I didn't do the research but I bet it is well in excess of 10 million per year even with guys like Cousins and Horford pulling it down.

* For the record, there 19 centers averaging over 8 points per game.

So, for a MINIMUM contract, we are getting a top 10 center in rebounding and a top 20 center in scoring...

How could that not be a great deal? And when you talk about value to the team...who would be playing center for us right now if Kwame wasn't n the roster?

And one more thing, 6 double doubles out of 31 games is an average of basically 20% or 1 out of every 5 games (not 1 out of 100).

[skratch]

I'll help you since research doesn't seem to be your thing...

Kwame is averaging 8 points and 8 rebounds under Silas with 6 double doubles and multiple rebounding games in the 13-18 range. Now take a look around the league. How many centers are averaging numbers that are much different than that?

* There are only 20 players in the entire league that are averaging 8 or more rebounds a game and according to NBA.com, only 7 of them are centers.

* Of those 7 centers (Howard, Gasol, Horford, Chandler, Cousins and Stoudamire) what is the average salary for these players? I didn't do the research but I bet it is well in excess of 10 million per year even with guys like Cousins and Horford pulling it down.

* For the record, there 19 centers averaging over 8 points per game.

So, for a MINIMUM contract, we are getting a top 10 center in rebounding and a top 20 center in scoring...

How could that not be a great deal? And when you talk about value to the team...who would be playing center for us right now if Kwame wasn't n the roster?

And one more thing, 6 double doubles out of 31 games is an average of basically 20% or 1 out of every 5 games (not 1 out of 100).

Actually i did do research on kwame stats if u read previous post, and i like how you throw "Under Silas" to prove your point even better like it makes a difference, but the real stats are this kwame brown is averaging 7ppg & 6.7 Rpg, i dont care about silas stats and neither does the world hes playing more under silas then larry brown, now let me give you real research, there are 32 players in the NBA averaging 8 or more rebounds(including 3 injured players), 14 are centers (Love,(f-c),Howard, Noah, Bogut, Gasol, Okafor, Varejao, Chandler, Cousins, Stoudamire, Perkins, Scola(f-c), Camby, etc),and the average for these players are above the triple of kwames 800k salary and actually nba.com tells me that 28 centers are averaging over 8 points per game, for the minimum were getting exactly what we pay for which is the "minimum" not a top in any stat type of player, and if we didnt have kwame it would just be naejro and diaw which is how it looks when kwame is out anyway, kwame's last double was 5 games ago Correct! but hes not going to get a double double no time soon, this month will be ugly and and expect 2 more losing seasons from the bobcats, jordan is saving money with kwame but who else can u get? nobody, u know why he gets paid so low? cause no idiot will give a man 1 mil if he couldnt average top 20 in any stats, "Women lie, men lie, NUmbers Don't Lie" - Jay-z

[WAM9]

Actually i did do research on kwame stats if u read previous post, and i like how you throw "Under Silas" to prove your point even better like it makes a difference, but the real stats are this kwame brown is averaging 7ppg & 6.7 Rpg, i dont care about silas stats and neither does the world hes playing more under silas then larry brown, now let me give you real research, there are 32 players in the NBA averaging 8 or more rebounds(including 3 injured players), 14 are centers (Love,(f-c),Howard, Noah, Bogut, Gasol, Okafor, Varejao, Chandler, Cousins, Stoudamire, Perkins, Scola(f-c), Camby, etc),and the average for these players are above the triple of kwames 800k salary and actually nba.com tells me that 28 centers are averaging over 8 points per game, for the minimum were getting exactly what we pay for which is the "minimum" not a top in any stat type of player, and if we didnt have kwame it would just be naejro and diaw which is how it looks when kwame is out anyway, kwame's last double was 5 games ago Correct! but hes not going to get a double double no time soon, this month will be ugly and and expect 2 more losing seasons from the bobcats, jordan is saving money with kwame but who else can u get? nobody, u know why he gets paid so low? cause no idiot will give a man 1 mil if he couldnt average top 20 in any stats, "Women lie, men lie, NUmbers Don't Lie" - Jay-z

Dude. Your posts are very difficult to decipher due to the grammar and punctuation so I won't be perpetuating (that means continuing) this "debate" any further. I have no problem going back and forth with educated posters, like SWeed, who actually have a clue but this is a waste of my time (and anyone who is reading it).

I just went back and checked my numbers on NBA.com again and they are correct. I can't figure out where you are getting your numbers from but I don't really care either. You are making a really lame argument in saying that a minimum salary guy is our problem. Really?

[CrazyCarl139]

Kwame Brown ranks 35th in Hollinger's Player Efficiency Ratings for centers. The top 10 are Howard, Horford, Duncan, Bynum, Nene, Al Jefferson, Noah, Lopez, Chandler, and Shaq.

Now, Hollinger's PER isn't perfect, but it takes into account how the player helps their team win. Kwame gets 7 ppg and 6.7 rpg, but how much does that help his team? How does that compare to other players getting similar minutes. How are those numbers adjusted considering his teams offensive efficiency (o-rebs, ppg) and defensive efficiency (d-rebs) and number of posessions, etc, etc. While Hollinger's PER isn't perfect, it is a good way to measure players effectiveness.

The average NBA salary is 5.84 million. Kwame, who makes 1.2 mill, is behind these centers who are making below the league average: Horford (5.4), Noah (3.1), Lopez (2.4), Shaq (1.3), Brad Miller (4.4), Javale McGee (1.6), Chris Andersen (3.9), Chuck Hayes (2.3), Hibbert (1.6), M Gasol (3.4), Speights (1.7), Robin Lopez (1.8 ), Trevor Booker (1.2), Turiaf (4.0), DeAndre Jordan (0.8 ), Jason Thompson (2.1), Anthony Tolliver (2.2), and Ilgauskas (1.3).

Next, you have to consider that some of these guys are on rookie salaries (Horford, Noah, Lopez, Hibbert, Gasol, Speights, Lopez, Jordan, Thompson) but they are all probably going to be signing (or already have) extensions because they warrant it. Kwame, is not getting an extension. Other guys (Shaq, Ilgauskas) are on veteran's minimums.

So, that leaves us to compare Kwame to guys like Booker and Tolliver (who are rookies playing well, but will be career journeymen), Brad Miller, Chris Andersen, Chuck Hayes and Ronny Turiaf.

Comparing him to those guys, I'm happy with what we're getting out of him. Are Miller, Andersen, Hayes and Turiaf better? Probably. Are they a little bit more expensive? Yes. With Kwame we're getting exactly what we pay for. He's not a bargain, he doesn't suck.

The question should be, why are we paying our starting center the minimum and expecting to win?

[adam187]

I think you guys are forgetting what a great deal Diop is.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

CP3 and DH12 to max deals, of course, would be ideal, if they would sign here.


I'd find someone else to fill out the 2-4 spots though. Really.

I may be a homer, but Harrison Barnes would be GREAT at the 3 spot ;)I hope Harrison Barnes decides to stay one more year at UNC. I just think it would serve him better to stay another year in college and hone his basketball skills. It would mean he would be more ready to contribute once he enters the NBA. I am tired of picks spending so much frigging time on the bench. It is so much better to have him coming off a complete season where he comes closer to reaching his full potential than to prematurely enter the NBA and stunt his growth for several years.

You all can laugh and poo poo Jimmer Fredette but the reality is that at this time he is more NBA ready than Harrison is. Potentially Harrison Barnes will be better but if we are talking about somebody who is more ready now I would take the one player you all would hate seeing in a Bobcats uniform before I would take Harrinson Barnes. At least at this time. Next season Harrison may be good enough to be the number one pick. I don't see him good enough for the lottery at this point.

[WAM9]

Kwame Brown ranks 35th in Hollinger's Player Efficiency Ratings for centers. The top 10 are Howard, Horford, Duncan, Bynum, Nene, Al Jefferson, Noah, Lopez, Chandler, and Shaq.

Now, Hollinger's PER isn't perfect, but it takes into account how the player helps their team win. Kwame gets 7 ppg and 6.7 rpg, but how much does that help his team? How does that compare to other players getting similar minutes. How are those numbers adjusted considering his teams offensive efficiency (o-rebs, ppg) and defensive efficiency (d-rebs) and number of posessions, etc, etc. While Hollinger's PER isn't perfect, it is a good way to measure players effectiveness.

The average NBA salary is 5.84 million. Kwame, who makes 1.2 mill, is behind these centers who are making below the league average: Horford (5.4), Noah (3.1), Lopez (2.4), Shaq (1.3), Brad Miller (4.4), Javale McGee (1.6), Chris Andersen (3.9), Chuck Hayes (2.3), Hibbert (1.6), M Gasol (3.4), Speights (1.7), Robin Lopez (1.8 ), Trevor Booker (1.2), Turiaf (4.0), DeAndre Jordan (0.8 ), Jason Thompson (2.1), Anthony Tolliver (2.2), and Ilgauskas (1.3).

Next, you have to consider that some of these guys are on rookie salaries (Horford, Noah, Lopez, Hibbert, Gasol, Speights, Lopez, Jordan, Thompson) but they are all probably going to be signing (or already have) extensions because they warrant it. Kwame, is not getting an extension. Other guys (Shaq, Ilgauskas) are on veteran's minimums.

So, that leaves us to compare Kwame to guys like Booker and Tolliver (who are rookies playing well, but will be career journeymen), Brad Miller, Chris Andersen, Chuck Hayes and Ronny Turiaf.

Comparing him to those guys, I'm happy with what we're getting out of him. Are Miller, Andersen, Hayes and Turiaf better? Probably. Are they a little bit more expensive? Yes. With Kwame we're getting exactly what we pay for. He's not a bargain, he doesn't suck.

The question should be, why are we paying our starting center the minimum and expecting to win?

I wasn't arguing PER ratings but they are, obviously, another way to compare. Kwame's average is 8/8 since Silas took over. How much would that move him up the ladder according to Hollinger? Either way, for a minimum salary guy, Kwame is producing way beyond his contract.

You are also correct that why in the world would we have a minimum salary guy as our starting center and expect to be winning.

[SWedd523]

I hope Harrison Barnes decides to stay one more year at UNC. I just think it would serve him better to stay another year in college and hone his basketball skills. It would mean he would be more ready to contribute once he enters the NBA. I am tired of picks spending so much frigging time on the bench. It is so much better to have him coming off a complete season where he comes closer to reaching his full potential than to prematurely enter the NBA and stunt his growth for several years.

You all can laugh and poo poo Jimmer Fredette but the reality is that at this time he is more NBA ready than Harrison is. Potentially Harrison Barnes will be better but if we are talking about somebody who is more ready now I would take the one player you all would hate seeing in a Bobcats uniform before I would take Harrinson Barnes. At least at this time. Next season Harrison may be good enough to be the number one pick. I don't see him good enough for the lottery at this point.

I feel like you're judging Barnes off the first 10ish games of the year. Since ACC play started, He's averaged about 18 points a game. That's fantastic for conference play. In that same span, he's hit at least 4 game winning shots (most recently against FSU).

I think too many people look at the points Jimmer is putting up without realizing that he is 1) the only scoring option on that team, 2) he plays in a mid-major conference against subpar competition (other than SDSU), and 3) is far too small to play his natural position in the NBA. He really isn't that much better than Nolan Smith, if at all.

The Tar Heels get the majority of their points in the paint by force feeding Zeller and Henson. Plus Strickland, Marshall, and McDonald all get their fair share of shots. If Barnes was the only threat on offense, you'd see him score 20+ on a nightly basis. Its also no secret that UNC got hot as soon as he became more assertive on offense.

I think so many people were so quick to write him off after his slow start that they don't realize he's been playing fantastic ball for awhile now.

[WAM9]

I have to agree with SWedd here. Barnes has been very, very good after an extremely slow start. I would love to think we could get him at the bottom of the lottery but the reality is, even if he came out today, he would be a top 5-7 pick almost for sure.

Jimmer has been lighting it up like crazy this year but I would want no part of him as a Bobcat. Actually, I would love to have him just not at the expense of a draft pick unless it was a 2nd rounder. Tremendous mid-major player/borderline NBA player.

[SWedd523]

Don't take my previous post to think I'm saying Jimmer isn't good because he is. Its just that guys like him are rarely if ever successful in the NBA. Would I love to see a fellow white guy come into the league and make an impact? You bet your ass. He just has way too many questions about his size and athleticism to make him worth much more than a late first, early second round pick.

Besides, even if Barnes needs another year or so, you still know he's going to be special one day so why not pick him and let him grow on our roster because, remember, we have to wait another two years or so to complete any rebuild (if we start now) so he'd be just coming into his stride then.

Also, another point that goes unmentioned for some reason: at 6'8" and capable of playing both SG and SF, he could potentially be the perfect backcourt mate to make up for DJ's lack of size.

[Chef]

Don't take my previous post to think I'm saying Jimmer isn't good because he is. Its just that guys like him are rarely if ever successful in the NBA. Would I love to see a fellow white guy come into the league and make an impact? You bet your ass. He just has way too many questions about his size and athleticism to make him worth much more than a late first, early second round pick.

Besides, even if Barnes needs another year or so, you still know he's going to be special one day so why not pick him and let him grow on our roster because, remember, we have to wait another two years or so to complete any rebuild (if we start now) so he'd be just coming into his stride then.

Also, another point that goes unmentioned for some reason: at 6'8" and capable of playing both SG and SF, he could potentially be the perfect backcourt mate to make up for DJ's lack of size.

jimmer would be perfect on a veteran team like the celts, spurs, lakers. on our team, expectations are too high, he will be asked to do things he can't and ultimately he will be a disaster.

[teej]

Jimmer needs Don Nelson to come out of retirement. That's Don's dream player right there.

[LiquidWayno]

Jimmer needs Utah in the lottery. He and Gordan Hayward will be the future of that team. With all our picks (maybe not the lottery one), Kenneth Faried from Morehead State would be somebody I would like picking up. Tyrus/DJ White and him would give us brusing depth at the 4. I'm a bit of a Baylor homer (I was a week away from going there), but Lacedarius Dunn would be a nice pick for us too. 6'4 can score, shoot the 3....nice compliment to Hendo.

[teej]

Jimmer needs Utah in the lottery. He and Gordan Hayward will be the future of that team.

Oh my God. Corbin would be the only black guy left in town.

I'm a bit of a Baylor homer (I was a week away from going there)[/QUOTE]

Pray tell how you wound up at Elon instead?

And since you're a Baylor fan, enjoy Quincy Miller and Duece Bello.

[polarcat]

Agreed about Barnes on all accounts. I want him (no homo) in a bad way to be in a 'Cats uniform next year. I'm a 'Cuse fan and can't stand the Tarholes, but this kid is going to be something special. He will be the talk of the NCAA tourney and will end up where WAM9 puts him.... probably top 5-7 pick, if not higher. He is exactly what we need and I hope we are in position to take him. I want nothing to do with Jimmer.... reminds me too much of the Ammo debacle with all of the college hype not equating to success in the NBA. Plus with DJ, no way we spend a first round pick on an undersized scoring PG.

[Chef]

Agreed about Barnes on all accounts. I want him (no homo) in a bad way to be in a 'Cats uniform next year. I'm a 'Cuse fan and can't stand the Tarholes, but this kid is going to be something special. He will be the talk of the NCAA tourney and will end up where WAM9 puts him.... probably top 5-7 pick, if not higher. He is exactly what we need and I hope we are in position to take him. I want nothing to do with Jimmer.... reminds me too much of the Ammo debacle with all of the college hype not equating to success in the NBA. Plus with DJ, no way we spend a first round pick on an undersized scoring PG.

we need to hope that barnes does not go off in tourney. we need his projection at the 5-7 and not the top 5. if he is projected at 7 we could use our two picks to move up and get him. if jordan is going rebuild through the draft this is the route i would take. barnes will end up being the player of this draft. but, if he gets too much pub in the tourney he will move too far up.

[LiquidWayno]

Oh my God. Corbin would be the only black guy left in town.

I'm a bit of a Baylor homer (I was a week away from going there)

Pray tell how you wound up at Elon instead?

And since you're a Baylor fan, enjoy Quincy Miller and Duece Bello.[/QUOTE]

Teej -after I finished at Elon I had a scholarship and graduate assistantship at Baylor for this school year. I was supposed to move to Waco at the beginning of August and I backed out late July and took a job teaching instead. Had I gone there and walked on, Baylor wouldn't be a bubble team, right?

[K!NG Wacko]

after dropping that 40pt game there is no way he drops to 10... damn it would be nice to develop him.

[captaincrunk]

Im not making a list cause i can careless i dont settle for less i will never say kwame is a good move because he doesnt help the team. if you been to bobcats games even the workers say kwame trash they be laughing with me, In what ways has he improved? of course his stats are going to improve under silas cause he doesnt have larry brown benching him & smacking him around anymore calling him garbage in his face, hes now the starter only because there's no center or forward on the bobcats, kwame shouldnt be starting in this league and the world knows that, i've been to 3 games this year under L.brown, and 4 under silas, i've only seen him play once under brown and hes still the same old kwame, nothing changed, he's soft, he never finishes, if he could finish he could average 15 points, but too bad hes that awful, just because he has games where he might get 10 points doesnt mean hes not kwame brown, every 100 games or against some srubs he'll put up a double-double, jordan should look into selling the team because hes not going to be able to land a upgrade over the great beast Kwame brown.
You should stay away from sarcasm. You're not very good at it. It isn't funny when you do it, it doesn't get your (piss poor) point across, and it makes you appear a buffoon.

[Chef]

after dropping that 40pt game there is no way he drops to 10... damn it would be nice to develop him.

he's top 5 for sure. oh well.

[GoBobs]

The reason we screwed up the last 6 years is because we tried to win to soon. Bob Johnson thought if he could get a few more wins it would boost fan support and improve the bottom line. We wasted half our cap space on Nazr hoping to get a few more wins and then the rest of it on the J-Rich deal. J-Rich put in a good season for us but we weren't ready to add a vet like that.

When the greatest free agent summer off all time came along we were stuck on the sidelines as a result while teams like the Wizards leveraged there cap space into extra picks.

A rebuild is going to take several years. 2012 is too soon to think about being able to challenge for a deep playoff run. It is more likely to happen a year or two later.

There is going to be a lockout more then likely next year for the whole season, which means Carroll and Diop will be on the books for 10 mil still in 2012 along with Jackson's 10 and Tyrus's 8 puts us on the hook for close to 29 mil before we address the options for Hendo and Liv (7 mil) and the qualifying offer for DJ (4.3 mil). Bottom line is we don't have the money to add two max free agents in 2012 if we don't have time to make trades before then. The best chance for us to get a star is to find one in the draft.

Our chances this year are not very good unless we get into the lottery and even then it is far from a sure thing. Our best bet is to load up on young players and look for free agents that are willing to play for reasonable money. Here is what I would do with our current roster.

DJ - Trade for a draft pick before his contract is up. I would take something in the 15-20 range where a vet team would be happy to have someone more ready to contribute then the rookie they could draft. If I could get the trade done before this years draft I might target Brandon Knight from KY who should fall into that range.

Hendo - Gerald would be one of the few guys I would try and keep. He seems to be improving and I love his ability to block shots from the sg spot. I think he could end up playing the 2 or the 3 and be solid at both spots.

S Jackson - I would try and get a pick and an expiring contract for Jackson. His salary is reasonable enough that a couple of young prospects on rookie deals would also work as an alternative.

Diop and Carroll - I let expire rather then wasting an asset to move them.

Diaw - most likely he will expire before we have a chance to trade him because of the lockout.

K Brown - somebody is going to pay him more after having a somewhat decent year. I would pretty much just let him walk rather then throw more money his way.

DJ White, D Cunningham, and TT also would be kept.

Free agent/Trade Targets

Tyler H - I think he would make the perfect off the bench scorer. Once the other teams is over the foul limit bring him in to attack the basket and draw contact.

S Curry - I wouldn't offer him a max contract but at about 9-10 mil per year I like him a lot as a piece.

I would also look at second tier free agents who might be willing to play for something reasonable. AK47 comes to mind this year. He will probably go back to the Jazz but I might offer him like 3yrs 18 mil just to take a shot. I would want a lot of young guys but you need some vets to for good chemistry.

Next year it is important we roll out a very young team. If we struggle which would be expected then we get a lottery pick next year and put off giving it to the Bulls. If our young guys turn out to be great and we still make the playoffs all the better.

[Chef]

The reason we screwed up the last 6 years is because we tried to win to soon. Bob Johnson thought if he could get a few more wins it would boost fan support and improve the bottom line. We wasted half our cap space on Nazr hoping to get a few more wins and then the rest of it on the J-Rich deal. J-Rich put in a good season for us but we weren't ready to add a vet like that.

When the greatest free agent summer off all time came along we were stuck on the sidelines as a result while teams like the Wizards leveraged there cap space into extra picks.

A rebuild is going to take several years. 2012 is too soon to think about being able to challenge for a deep playoff run. It is more likely to happen a year or two later.

There is going to be a lockout more then likely next year for the whole season, which means Carroll and Diop will be on the books for 10 mil still in 2012 along with Jackson's 10 and Tyrus's 8 puts us on the hook for close to 29 mil before we address the options for Hendo and Liv (7 mil) and the qualifying offer for DJ (4.3 mil). Bottom line is we don't have the money to add two max free agents in 2012 if we don't have time to make trades before then. The best chance for us to get a star is to find one in the draft.

Our chances this year are not very good unless we get into the lottery and even then it is far from a sure thing. Our best bet is to load up on young players and look for free agents that are willing to play for reasonable money. Here is what I would do with our current roster.

DJ - Trade for a draft pick before his contract is up. I would take something in the 15-20 range where a vet team would be happy to have someone more ready to contribute then the rookie they could draft. If I could get the trade done before this years draft I might target Brandon Knight from KY who should fall into that range.

Hendo - Gerald would be one of the few guys I would try and keep. He seems to be improving and I love his ability to block shots from the sg spot. I think he could end up playing the 2 or the 3 and be solid at both spots.

S Jackson - I would try and get a pick and an expiring contract for Jackson. His salary is reasonable enough that a couple of young prospects on rookie deals would also work as an alternative.

Diop and Carroll - I let expire rather then wasting an asset to move them.

Diaw - most likely he will expire before we have a chance to trade him because of the lockout.

K Brown - somebody is going to pay him more after having a somewhat decent year. I would pretty much just let him walk rather then throw more money his way.

DJ White, D Cunningham, and TT also would be kept.

Free agent/Trade Targets

Tyler H - I think he would make the perfect off the bench scorer. Once the other teams is over the foul limit bring him in to attack the basket and draw contact.

S Curry - I wouldn't offer him a max contract but at about 9-10 mil per year I like him a lot as a piece.

I would also look at second tier free agents who might be willing to play for something reasonable. AK47 comes to mind this year. He will probably go back to the Jazz but I might offer him like 3yrs 18 mil just to take a shot. I would want a lot of young guys but you need some vets to for good chemistry.

Next year it is important we roll out a very young team. If we struggle which would be expected then we get a lottery pick next year and put off giving it to the Bulls. If our young guys turn out to be great and we still make the playoffs all the better.

great post. don't think tyler h will be available. he is playing well now and for the low cost, the pacers will most likely retain him. i like the plan but i would offer an asset (NO pick or DJ) to move diop if the deal was there.

[teej]

Yeah, if MJ's plan long term is to get CP3, then find someone who wants DJ and package DJ and Diop for an expiring PG over this summer (once the CBA is signed). Problem is the only guys who could really be expirings in that price range next year are Ray, Chauncey (if TO picked up), Andre Miller (if TO picked up), and Kirk Hinrich.

[GoBobs]

don't think tyler h will be available. he is playing well now and for the low cost, the pacers will most likely retain him.

yea, he is looking like a solid starter lately too. Had 29 pts tonight vs the knicks on 12-20 shooting

[captaincrunk]

Why would we move DJ in anything other than a trade for CP3?

[teej]

Why would we move DJ in anything other than a trade for CP3?

If the plan is to get CP3, then trading DJ allows for a better execuation of that plan.

[Demon DeaCat]

If NO does eventually trade CP, and I believe they will, they're going to want a young, starting caliber PG in return. I think packaging DJ along with Boris' expiring and some draft picks, and perhaps another piece gives us the best chance to get a deal done. I agree that DJ is a critical component to any possible trade with NO. I'm not sure how we could put a package together that would be acceptable to them if we didn't have DJ to offer.

[captaincrunk]

If the plan is to get CP3, then trading DJ allows for a better execuation of that plan.
DJ probably has the most trade value on our team, especially to a team losing it's starting point guard. I wouldn't trade DJ for anything other than a PG who was miles better than him like Rondo or CP3. Otherwise it's just a waste of a good asset.

[teej]

DJ probably has the most trade value on our team, especially to a team losing it's starting point guard. I wouldn't trade DJ for anything other than a PG who was miles better than him like Rondo or CP3. Otherwise it's just a waste of a good asset.

Not sure you get my point. If there's a plan to get CP3 in free agency (whether it's a one-sided plan from MJ but not Chris, or if they already have a deal, doesn't matter) then moving DJ and Gana for an expiring would help get Chris. That's what I'm advocating.

[captaincrunk]

Not sure you get my point. If there's a plan to get CP3 in free agency (whether it's a one-sided plan from MJ but not Chris, or if they already have a deal, doesn't matter) then moving DJ and Gana for an expiring would help get Chris. That's what I'm advocating.
I don't really think so. CP3 wouldn't be any more interested than cap space than he would be DJ and cap space (from Diaw's expiring anyway).

[mrfargo]

I'd move the mayor of charlotte and the gov of NC to get dwight and CP3

[teej]

I don't really think so. CP3 wouldn't be any more interested than cap space than he would be DJ and cap space (from Diaw's expiring anyway).

How the hell is CP3 going to use DJ? And also, depending on the new CBA, the cap we'd have without any changes to the roster might not be enough...

[captaincrunk]

How the hell is CP3 going to use DJ? And also, depending on the new CBA, the cap we'd have without any changes to the roster might not be enough...
That's a bad attitude about the cap. "Lets trade away our best prospects for empty space, JUST IN CASE LOLOLOLOL!

CP3 managed to find a use for Darren Collison.

[GoBobs]

Why would we move DJ in anything other than a trade for CP3?

My reasoning is we need to preserve our cap space to give our team future flexibility. I don't think Dwight or Paul are realistic because we won't have enough cap space by then. I also see a trade for either of those guys as a non starter because we don't have the assets. (DJ isn't good enough to be the centerpiece of that trade,and we are already on the hook for one draft pick to the Bulls in coming years.)

Because DJ's is a restricted free agent in 2012/2013 and an unrestricted free agent in 2013/2014 he is going to eat into our cap space. If we sign him to a bigger deal in 2012 that counts vs the cap, if we don't we risk losing him for nothing the next year like the Felton deal.

I see the timing of his contract putting us in a hard place in more ways then one. If he is great next year would you really feel comfortable giving him a huge deal or letting him become an unrestricted free agent? I think both are bad options. Also because he isn't a max guy the chance of him going to another team is greater because his bird rights will mean less in negotiations. If we could get somebody younger that would be on a rookie deal longer who was about as good it would be a win. In this draft I would be just as happy to have Kemba Walker, Josh Selby, Brandon Knight.

[captaincrunk]

My reasoning is we need to preserve our cap space to give our team future flexibility. I don't think Dwight or Paul are realistic because we won't have enough cap space by then. I also see a trade for either of those guys as a non starter because we don't have the assets. (DJ isn't good enough to be the centerpiece of that trade,and we are already on the hook for one draft pick to the Bulls in coming years.)

Because DJ's is a restricted free agent in 2012/2013 and an unrestricted free agent in 2013/2014 he is going to eat into our cap space. If we sign him to a bigger deal in 2012 that counts vs the cap, if we don't we risk losing him for nothing the next year like the Felton deal.

I see the timing of his contract putting us in a hard place in more ways then one. If he is great next year would you really feel comfortable giving him a huge deal or letting him become an unrestricted free agent? I think both are bad options. Also because he isn't a max guy the chance of him going to another team is greater because his bird rights will mean less in negotiations. If we could get somebody younger that would be on a rookie deal longer who was about as good it would be a win. In this draft I would be just as happy to have Kemba Walker, Josh Selby, Brandon Knight.
If you don't think it's realistic, then it's absolutely imperative we keep DJ. DJ is exactly what this team is looking for (outside of top FA's of course). If we had the 5th pick in the draft, or DJ, I'd pick DJ. He's the sure thing.

[SJackson1]

Hi Guys, i think Paul Silas has done a terrific job since at the helm.

[ohara831]

Hi Guys, i think Paul Silas has done a terrific job since at the helm.

I think having him here for 2012 is every bit as important to the rebuild as the players we have. They really seem to want to play hard for him.

[Demon DeaCat]

My reasoning is we need to preserve our cap space to give our team future flexibility. I don't think Dwight or Paul are realistic because we won't have enough cap space by then. I also see a trade for either of those guys as a non starter because we don't have the assets. (DJ isn't good enough to be the centerpiece of that trade,and we are already on the hook for one draft pick to the Bulls in coming years.)

I don't think it's likely that we'd sign both outright, but I don't think it's going to come to that. NO isn't going to let CP walk away for nothing. They will trade him first just like Utah and Den, and I have to disagree about us not having the assets for such a trade. We've got DJ, who, while he isn't CP, is a solid PG and is about as good as they're going to get. He'd be a capable starter until they found someone better. We've also got Boris' $9 mil expiring (huge asset) plus Portland's pick as well as our own future picks. Not to mention young talented players like TT, Hendo and DJW if we needed to throw them in. We do have assets (finally), thanks to the GW/Nazr trades. If we can trade for CP we'd have a realistic shot at Dwight.

Further, we don't know that we won't have adequate cap space for 2 max deals until the new CBA is done. Max salaries will almost certainly decrease from where they are right now. Even if a hard cap is implemented I'd expect that number to be closer to where the current cap is at a minimum. If so, I think we'd be in pretty good shape to sign both. This scenario may or may not play out, but I don't think it's unrealistic at all.

[Chef]

I don't think it's likely that we'd sign both outright, but I don't think it's going to come to that. NO isn't going to let CP walk away for nothing. They will trade him first just like Utah and Den, and I have to disagree about us not having the assets for such a trade. We've got DJ, who, while he isn't CP, is a solid PG and is about as good as they're going to get. He'd be a capable starter until they found someone better. We've also got Boris' $9 mil expiring (huge asset) plus Portland's pick as well as our own future picks. Not to mention young talented players like TT, Hendo and DJW if we needed to throw them in. We do have assets (finally), thanks to the GW/Nazr trades. If we can trade for CP we'd have a realistic shot at Dwight.

Further, we don't know that we won't have adequate cap space for 2 max deals until the new CBA is done. Max salaries will almost certainly decrease from where they are right now. Even if a hard cap is implemented I'd expect that number to be closer to where the current cap is at a minimum. If so, I think we'd be in pretty good shape to sign both. This scenario may or may not play out, but I don't think it's unrealistic at all.

the big unknown is that right now and for the forseeable future NO is owned by the NBA ie all the owners collectively. i imagine if either west or paul get moved there would have to be a consensus vote by the owners, especially cp3. i am not sure he would be moved because if you were an owner of any of the top tier teams you would probably veto a trade and sign for sure and take a shot at him in FA.

[Demon DeaCat]

Good point about their ownership status. I hadn't considered that but it could possibly factor in. In a way though, it could work in our favor. I'd have to think if the owners did lend their approval to a trade scenario, it would likely be one in which CP lands on a team most of them consider to be largely irrelevant, like us.

[Winning]

Speaking of NO...from the observer this morning
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/03/14/2141439/gov-jindal-anticipates-la-payment.html#

I'm still hoping for contraction for them

[spectre]

the big unknown is that right now and for the forseeable future NO is owned by the NBA ie all the owners collectively. i imagine if either west or paul get moved there would have to be a consensus vote by the owners, especially cp3. i am not sure he would be moved because if you were an owner of any of the top tier teams you would probably veto a trade and sign for sure and take a shot at him in FA.

That is a good point, but I don't know that the owners have an actual say. Remember Cuban bitching about the last 2 deals they did? Maybe they voted and he lost...but I didn't take it that way.

[Chef]

That is a good point, but I don't know that the owners have an actual say. Remember Cuban bitching about the last 2 deals they did? Maybe they voted and he lost...but I didn't take it that way.

they don't have a say right now, but if we are talking about trading cp3 (a top 3 point guard and franchise type guy) i bet it has to be a consensus agreement.

[teej]

Stern has said that the NBA gives the Hornets prior approval on how much salary to take/give, and they're free to work within that realm however they want.

[Chef]

Stern has said that the NBA gives the Hornets prior approval on how much salary to take/give, and they're free to work within that realm however they want.

until they decide to move cp3. he is a game changer and the other owners will have to vote on it. what if it is a wallace-esque pau trade?

[ohara831]

until they decide to move cp3. he is a game changer and the other owners will have to vote on it. what if it is a wallace-esque pau trade?

The Wallace deal and Pao Gasol deals were not even close to being similar.

[Toocool]

Time to shut down Jack.

Play huge minutes for DJ White, Cunningham, TT, Hendo and DJ Auggie. Development time.

[spectre]

The Wallace deal and Pao Gasol deals were not even close to being similar.

Seriously...what are the odds we're going to end up with a Marc Gasol?

Remember at the time that was considered a terrible giveaway trade by the Griz. Ended up they didn't do so bad after all.

[Chef]

The Wallace deal and Pao Gasol deals were not even close to being similar.

i was talking about chris wallace the gm for the griz. as in what if the hornets want to do a wallace-esque deal for cp3 ie trade him for negative 25 cents on the dollar.

[Chef]

Seriously...what are the odds we're going to end up with a Marc Gasol?

Remember at the time that was considered a terrible giveaway trade by the Griz. Ended up they didn't do so bad after all.

it is still the single worst trade of the past 20 years

[spectre]

it is still the single worst trade of the past 20 years

Was it really?

The Pau Gasol trade revisited (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=988661&start=0&sid=50ffe74be5a9b4a9b871e8c5671a9401)


But let's not disregard what this trade has done for the Grizzlies.

Original assets received from LA:
Kwame Brown (expiring)
Javaris Crittenden
Aaron McKie
Two unprotected 1st round draft picks (2008, 2010)
Draft rights to Marc Gasol

Back then it looked to be a terrible trade. But looking back, this is what the Grizzlies REALLY got.

- Marc Gasol who is blossoming into one of the best young center in the league
- Zach Randolph...because without Kwame's expiring Memphis doesn't have the cap flexibility to absorb Randolph's contract.
- Darrell Arthur (compliments of LA's 2008 1st)
- A 1st rounder in 2010

And now...another thing to add to the list...Ronnie Brewer.

Memphis used Crittenden to get back the 1st round pick that was originally traded by Memphis for Juan Carlos Navarro back in 2007. What did Memphis use to get Brewer? That pick.

I would say that Memphis getting a starting PF, starting center, two solid backups, and another 1st rounder is starting to look like a much more balanced traded in regard to what BOTH TEAMS were trying to get accomplished.

[dnbman]

Was it really?

The Pau Gasol trade revisited[/URL]

So, what you're telling me, Spectre, is that the Wallace trade might be o.k.?

[runs and jumps behind the rocks.]

[Chef]

marc gasol is nothing special. he is a good defensive and very tough physical center in a league in where there are very few centers like him. in the 90's he would not have been anything special at all. but we are not in the 90's so he is a decent pickup but after they pay him this summer he will no longer be such a great roster spot. i would much rather have pau over him anyday.

[spectre]

So, what you're telling me, Spectre, is that the Wallace trade might be o.k.?

[runs and jumps behind the rocks.

LOL yeah...that's exactly what I was saying! :p

Since the trade even Space Jam reruns are banned from my house.

They got Marc on a rook deal for what...3 years while they were able to build around him? For the position they were in what they did was far superior than being a playoff team with no playoff victories every year paying brother Pau a fat paycheck. It gave them cap space and options...which they used to get Randolph, their pick back from WAS, etc.

We should hope like hell our trade turns out near as good as that one did over the next few years...which is probably how long it's going to take.

[Marvel]

Was it really?

The Pau Gasol trade revisited (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=988661&start=0&sid=50ffe74be5a9b4a9b871e8c5671a9401)


I wouldn't attribute/link the Zach Randolph trade to the Gasol trade. It was more so taking advantage of an opportunity, than the Grizz FO using their genius to turn sand into gold.

[rsxnova]

Im not really sure why you guys are comparing the Wallace/Pau deals. We got cap relief and decent draft picks for a 29 year old forward that relies on athleticism. Of course i am taking into account that Wallace will probably have a shorter prime than a player like Pau. He is probably on the edge as is.

[Chef]

Im not really sure why you guys are comparing the Wallace/Pau deals. We got cap relief and decent draft picks for a 29 year old forward that relies on athleticism. Of course i am taking into account that Wallace will probably have a shorter prime than a player like Pau. He is probably on the edge as is.

we aren't. we are talking about the memphis gm chris wallace and the pau gasol trade. we were talking about the potential of NO trading CP3 and needing total ownership approval because it is a league owned team. i said a wallace-esque pau gasol type trade won't happen, as in NO will not be able to just give away cp3 for cap releif.

not about gerald wallace at all.

[spectre]

I wouldn't attribute/link the Zach Randolph trade to the Gasol trade. It was more so taking advantage of an opportunity, than the Grizz FO using their genius to turn sand into gold.

Sure you would...because with the flexibility the trade gave them they were able to get Randolph. Same reason why we can't judge the Portland trade until we see what Jordan does with our newfound flexibility & the picks.

DNB caught it...my points on Gasol is actually the opposite position of what I've maintained since the Portland trade. Gasol had much more value than Crash...but if what we got was a similar (but obviously lesser) package AND if Jordan can parlay it into something along the lines that Memphis did then it's not so bad after all.

Sorry to skew this to sorta off topic...but it is pointing to what Jordan could do with the new options that he has.

[ohara831]

i was talking about chris wallace the gm for the griz. as in what if the hornets want to do a wallace-esque deal for cp3 ie trade him for negative 25 cents on the dollar.

I gotcha. My bad.

[teej]

Yeah, Gasol was a franchise center who was younger than the 3rd option Crash when traded, and the only difference between their trade and ours is instead of exipirings and two first rounders, they got Marc and Crittendon added. Difference is, the two first rounders we got are better than the two they got.

[Marvel]

Yeah true. What are the chances of us acquiring a player like Zach, a true 20-10 guy though....slim to none.

Unless we draft Kanter...

[bryce_1470]

My first move would be to extend Shaun Livingston's contract. I know this isn't the popular consensus, however he is 4th in almost all stats on the team right now off the bench. If he started, he could dominate. He just needs to be more consistent with his play. We also need to figure out what we want to do with our draft picks. Who we should focus on. Should we get a production guy, or a big guy who likes to shoot to replace Diaw? I would say replace Diaw, except none of our round 1 draft picks are with the franchise anymore. We need to be able to keep some of those players for the next couple of years. I don't care who they are. No franchise can get better if they can't keep the best draft picks. Shaun Livingston is a set up guy. We're going to need somebody who he can set up, and right now, there isn't a person who is strong enough in the franchise currently. However, I think the draft is a good place to look for that. We should stay out of Free Agency for a while unless we must, or we can't pass up a good value trade. But the reason we're in this mess, is because we have tried to survive on players that other teams didn't feel were good enough to keep. Which isn't a good place to get top quality players. A star can be made at Charlotte, because we have support players. The star will be made, because we have a fantastic support staff of players. We just need a single player we can rally around, and propel them into stardom. I had hoped Shaun Livingston, could challenge for that spot by year two, but it doesn't look like it... unfortunately he isn't as opportunistic as I think he should be to be truly great, but I still like him a lot. Shaun Livingston on a reconstructed knee is still a fantastic player at times. But he just needs to be a consistently fairly good player, which I know he can be.

[Scottley Crue]

My first move would be to extend Shaun Livingston's contract. I know this isn't the popular consensus, however he is 4th in almost all stats on the team right now off the bench. If he started, he could dominate. He just needs to be more consistent with his play. We also need to figure out what we want to do with our draft picks. Who we should focus on. Should we get a production guy, or a big guy who likes to shoot to replace Diaw? I would say replace Diaw, except none of our round 1 draft picks are with the franchise anymore. We need to be able to keep some of those players for the next couple of years. I don't care who they are. No franchise can get better if they can't keep the best draft picks. Shaun Livingston is a set up guy. We're going to need somebody who he can set up, and right now, there isn't a person who is strong enough in the franchise currently. However, I think the draft is a good place to look for that. We should stay out of Free Agency for a while unless we must, or we can't pass up a good value trade. But the reason we're in this mess, is because we have tried to survive on players that other teams didn't feel were good enough to keep. Which isn't a good place to get top quality players. A star can be made at Charlotte, because we have support players. The star will be made, because we have a fantastic support staff of players. We just need a single player we can rally around, and propel them into stardom. I had hoped Shaun Livingston, could challenge for that spot by year two, but it doesn't look like it... unfortunately he isn't as opportunistic as I think he should be to be truly great, but I still like him a lot. Shaun Livingston on a reconstructed knee is still a fantastic player at times. But he just needs to be a consistently fairly good player, which I know he can be.

While I think Shaun has performed well, I'd hold off on extending his contract. He's an interesting case...I don't think he distributes well enough (or very much at all, to be honest) to be a top-tier point guard but if he's moved to the 2, his main advantage of posting up smaller guards is taken away. I do like what he's done in his role, but I can't think I'd try to build around him.

As for replacing Diaw, that's already on the roster. Tyrus and DJ White will be the PF duo next year. I can see Diaw getting moved, and if anyone give anything remotely worth it, Jackson will get moved, too. With that, if the draft picks aren't used in a trade to get someone, then taking the best player available is the way to go, I believe. There are nice role players, but getting as much of an upgrade in talent as possible is the priority, I believe.

[Boomer]

My first move would be to extend Shaun Livingston's contract. I know this isn't the popular consensus, however he is 4th in almost all stats on the team right now off the bench. If he started, he could dominate. He just needs to be more consistent with his play. We also need to figure out what we want to do with our draft picks. Who we should focus on. Should we get a production guy, or a big guy who likes to shoot to replace Diaw? I would say replace Diaw, except none of our round 1 draft picks are with the franchise anymore. We need to be able to keep some of those players for the next couple of years. I don't care who they are. No franchise can get better if they can't keep the best draft picks. Shaun Livingston is a set up guy. We're going to need somebody who he can set up, and right now, there isn't a person who is strong enough in the franchise currently. However, I think the draft is a good place to look for that. We should stay out of Free Agency for a while unless we must, or we can't pass up a good value trade. But the reason we're in this mess, is because we have tried to survive on players that other teams didn't feel were good enough to keep. Which isn't a good place to get top quality players. A star can be made at Charlotte, because we have support players. The star will be made, because we have a fantastic support staff of players. We just need a single player we can rally around, and propel them into stardom. I had hoped Shaun Livingston, could challenge for that spot by year two, but it doesn't look like it... unfortunately he isn't as opportunistic as I think he should be to be truly great, but I still like him a lot. Shaun Livingston on a reconstructed knee is still a fantastic player at times. But he just needs to be a consistently fairly good player, which I know he can be.


Don't think we should extend a guy who's knee was so f'ed up he prob shouldn't be playing right now...

[teej]

We have two more years on liv's contract right now, so there's no reason to worry about that.

[jdub28]

I have no idea what to do or where to start.

Before, we just picked up the most talented players (or what seemed like the most talented) we could get and tried to force them in to LB's system. That didn't yield great results. This time I hope Paul Silas, Rod Higgins and MJ have a system in mind and look for players that seamlessly fit in.

Look at the Lakers, Spurs, Celtics, Bulls, and Mavs. Those teams have more success even though teams like the Knicks, Heat, Thunder, Hawks and Magic have just as much (if not more) talent.

The problem there is that it is tough to come up with a system without a star player. So it is kind of a catch 22. I just hope the team doesn't end up like the Warriors, 76ers, or Grizzlies with just a bunch of good individual pieces thrown together. We are not Miami or New York and can not rely on throwing the best free agent talent together and waiting for the greatness to happen. If I was MJ I would look at how the Spurs have been run the last 10 years, and the Pacers the 10 years before that.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I agree to a certain extent but do think the best road map to success for us would be to look at what Sam Presti of OKC has done with his drafting and builing with youth. To a lesser extent but not by much one must look at what Kevin Pritchard did for the Portland Trail Blazers. The Spurs and the other successful teams you mentioned are great examples of doing things the right way. I hope that our team is built through youth and successful drafting. It would help if we had a GM noted for playing a role or roles in drafting well. Still I am willing to accept this team taking it's chances at drafting well. If we can get a legit star through FA or trades than that is fine but I don't like trying to build a team that way.

[cltblkhscoach]

Guys, with this impending lockout, a lot of these guys we're considering drafting just might stay in school. I really think that making the playoffs becomes priority for that reason. Then you might see another draft night trade with these picks and Boris's expiring contract, contingent on if he takes the player option, which at 9 million, it's safe to assume he would. That could bring a pretty good talent over to us, though I'm not sure who exactly.

[BRNC]

We have two more years on liv's contract right now, so there's no reason to worry about that.

We have a team option (2012/13) which was smart...I like Liv but agree that we need to wait and see how his health holds (knee) up...I like what he brings off the bench for the second unit...