Is there hope for small market teams?

[Absinthe]

I'm beyond annoyed at the current state of the NBA. The league has something like 30 teams, yet only five or six teams have won a title in the past twenty years. For most fans, making the playoffs or even advancing is their version of a championship. I'm kind of praying for a lockout in hopes that major changes will stem from it. If the Lakers win another title then I'm very tempted to quit watching the NBA. I've always felt that college basketball is a more fun watch anyway.

[teej]

It has less to do with market and more to do with management. Utah is a small market, they were a contender for years. Houston is a small market, they won 2 rings. Detroit isn't a big market. And obviously the Spurs are a tiny market.

However, a hard cap would be nice.

[ammofan]

Of course there's hope. As teej said, SAS and UTA are small markets and they are very successful. POR, OKC are also small market teams.

They key is how you build your team. If you build through the draft with young players and make them be part of the team I think there's a ton of hope for any small market franchise. For example, Memphis this year. They have been building for years and years(probably too many...) and they have a great young team that has bought into the team concept and the coach.

[Absinthe]

Of course there's hope. As teej said, SAS and UTA are small markets and they are very successful. POR, OKC are also small market teams.

They key is how you build your team. If you build through the draft with young players and make them be part of the team I think there's a ton of hope for any small market franchise. For example, Memphis this year. They have been building for years and years(probably too many...) and they have a great young team that has bought into the team concept and the coach.

San Antonio tanked and drafted perhaps the best PF in NBA history. Tim Duncan will go down as one of the greatest players of all time. Not to mention that they got very lucky by drafting Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in the late rounds. After those three players retire they'll likely descend into total irrelevance. Out of all of the teams you listed, Oklahoma City and San Antonio are the only two that have a chance at winning a title. Utah is going to miss the playoffs (and they're likely going to be awful for years to come) and Portland is cemented as a mediocre team.

How you build your team is irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. Look at the super teams like LA, Miami, and New York. Even if you build your team perfectly and luck out you're not going to contend with those teams. Small market teams don't have a chance. Here's the main problem: most free agents will sign in NY, Miami, and LA without thinking twice about it. Would they do the same for Charlotte or Minnesota? In my eyes, the most effective small market team so far is Oklahoma City. They have a MVP type player in Durant, they have a solid PG, and they have a bunch of great role players. Even they can't compete with the Lakers and Miami and that is my point.

[ammofan]

San Antonio tanked and drafted perhaps the best PF in NBA history. Tim Duncan will go down as one of the greatest players of all time. Not to mention that they got very lucky by drafting Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in the late rounds. After those three players retire they'll likely descend into total irrelevance. Out of all of the teams you listed, Oklahoma City and San Antonio are the only two that have a chance at winning a title. Utah is going to miss the playoffs (and they're likely going to be awful for years to come) and Portland is cemented as a mediocre team.

How you build your team is irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. Look at the super teams like LA, Miami, and New York. Even if you build your team perfectly and luck out you're not going to contend with those teams. Small market teams don't have a chance. Here's the main problem: most free agents will sign in NY, Miami, and LA without thinking twice about it. Would they do the same for Charlotte or Minnesota? In my eyes, the most effective small market team so far is Oklahoma City. They have a MVP type player in Durant, they have a solid PG, and they have a bunch of great role players. Even they can't compete with the Lakers and Miami and that is my point.

UTAH has been good for a long time. They lost Stockton and Malone, a numbe rof years they followed up with D-Will and Boozer. It is about how you build your team. San Antonio has doen a phenomenol job building their team that is why they are successful.

[millst2]

Absinthe,.. The spurs you think are going to suck once those three leave/retire? Tiago, Hill, Neal, Blair etc hung with the blazers without Timmy, Parker, Ginobli and Dice.. even if they did tank to get duncan it's no different than seattle tanking to get durant, and the wiz getting wall, oden etc etc

It is all about management and the bobcats are nowhere near the spurs or okc's level as far as drafting and trades. The bench from the spurs can about hang with any team of starters ( they may not win but it usually wouldnt be a blow out). Thats the sign of a deep team.

Our FO sucks, and we freed up cap recently to make jordan a few dollars, get us some draft picks.. But .. We will probably trade the 2 drafts for a 2nd rd pick and a veteran that we will overpay for for the next 5 yrs. Thats the pattern and thats why some small market teams stay in perpetual bottom feeder to 8th seed.

[teej]

The Spurs will suck without Duncan?

George Hill and Tiago are really, really good pieces for the future. And James Anderson is pretty damn good, too.

It's all about how you manage it, yes drafting a star is part of that, but there's a reason the Spurs win and a team like, say, the Knicks, don't. Management. Knicks had Patrick Ewing. Didn't matter. It's easier to draft a star than it is to get a solid cast.

[SWedd523]

Big markets will always have the advantage by being the first choice for free agents and the like. Really the only way small market teams have a chance is being terrible before drafting a great player or three: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili...Durant, Westbrook... Deron... CP3... etc. that more importantly want to stay in town instead of shipping out to a big market like Bron/Bosh.

So other than drafting a fantastic player or two, small markets like us have no real chance. Detroit being the one fluke.

[BRNC]

I agree with you SWedd...it makes the draft that much more important...and trading for the right players helps...

A new CBA will not stop the big market teams from spending money so small markets just have to be smarter...let's hope we get there soon...

[Absinthe]

Absinthe,.. The spurs you think are going to suck once those three leave/retire? Tiago, Hill, Neal, Blair etc hung with the blazers without Timmy, Parker, Ginobli and Dice.. even if they did tank to get duncan it's no different than seattle tanking to get durant, and the wiz getting wall, oden etc etc

It is all about management and the bobcats are nowhere near the spurs or okc's level as far as drafting and trades. The bench from the spurs can about hang with any team of starters ( they may not win but it usually wouldnt be a blow out). Thats the sign of a deep team.

Our FO sucks, and we freed up cap recently to make jordan a few dollars, get us some draft picks.. But .. We will probably trade the 2 drafts for a 2nd rd pick and a veteran that we will overpay for for the next 5 yrs. Thats the pattern and thats why some small market teams stay in perpetual bottom feeder to 8th seed.

It doesn't matter if your front office is good or not. A good front office isn't going to prevent Dwight Howard going to Lakers. A good front office isn't going to prevent Chris Paul from going to New York. A good front office won't prevent Miami from adding more players. How is any team supposed to contend when all of these super teams are being built?

[Chef]

It doesn't matter if your front office is good or not. A good front office isn't going to prevent Dwight Howard going to Lakers. A good front office isn't going to prevent Chris Paul from going to New York. A good front office won't prevent Miami from adding more players. How is any team supposed to contend when all of these super teams are being built?

the salary cap is going to prevent howard from going to the lakers. and they don't have the pieces or room to move bynum to orlando and take back all the salary orlando will demand. howard will go to the nets 100x before he goes to the lakers by trade. and even with all the free agents piling up, miami or new york do not look any more ready to take a championship than okc.

[Absinthe]

If they really want to get Howard, they can. They were already trying to unload Artest during the trade deadline. I think they'd part with Odom (many teams would want him) and Bynum would definitely be on the table as well. Not to mention that they're going to have some expiring contracts.

And seriously, have you watched Oklahoma play? They're contenders, but they'll never beat San Antonio, LA, or even Dallas in a series.

[Chef]

If they really want to get Howard, they can. They were already trying to unload Artest during the trade deadline. I think they'd part with Odom (many teams would want him) and Bynum would definitely be on the table as well. Not to mention that they're going to have some expiring contracts.

And seriously, have you watched Oklahoma play? They're contenders, but they'll never beat San Antonio, LA, or even Dallas in a series.

i disagree that is all but certain that howard goes to LA. by the time he gets there they would need more help outside because kobe will certainly not be able to carry the team.

i agree with your OKC assessment but if we were betting on who wins first okc, miami or the knicks i would take okc.

here's a howard trade that is very interesting
howard and bass to chicago for noah, boozer, our 2012, chi 2012, chi 2014

[Absinthe]

Chicago would be stupid to do that. They're a perimeter person away from a championship. You never trade two bigs for one.

[Chef]

Chicago would be stupid to do that. They're a perimeter person away from a championship. You never trade two bigs for one.

not so sure. boozer is injury prone and is very replaceable anyway. although noah is a very good center especially defensively, howard is much much better defensively and offensively. they still would have asik and taj on the bench and still would only be a perimeter player away. rose makes up for howard's lack of down the stretch disappearances and his penetration would allow howard to get even more boards. the only thing i would be afraid of is that i think howard can be a premadonna punk alot of the times especially crying to the refs.

[millst2]

http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/images/styles/FunkyFresh/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Absinthe http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/images/styles/FunkyFresh/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/showthread.php?p=193936#post193936)
It doesn't matter if your front office is good or not. A good front office isn't going to prevent Dwight Howard going to Lakers. A good front office isn't going to prevent Chris Paul from going to New York. A good front office won't prevent Miami from adding more players. How is any team supposed to contend when all of these super teams are being built?

The front office has a lot to do with what the player demands! If you have a good front office that trades and drafts smart you can keep your star players. All the star players want is a chance to win it all. Put better people around them.

The whole super-team argument is all over the place. Your saying nobody can compete with LA, Boston, MIA etc and that the larger market teams always will be better. That is so far from the truth. I would consider OKC and the Spurs top tier teams that didn't do trades for Super Players.. they built like Charlotte needs to do " Through the Draft". The biggest difference with those clubs and ours is that we have Rod Higgins NOT .R .C Buford.

[dnbman]

It doesn't matter if your front office is good or not. A good front office isn't going to prevent Dwight Howard going to Lakers. A good front office isn't going to prevent Chris Paul from going to New York. A good front office won't prevent Miami from adding more players. How is any team supposed to contend when all of these super teams are being built?

I feel your pain, for sure, Absinthe. The NBA is very frustrating with its arms race style team building. However, I do think it's still possible to build a winner in a small market. I think the key is to find at least one young star player with a good attitude. Durant is a perfect example of that. Rose in Chicago is another example. If you get one guy to make everybody else better, you can get the other talent. In some ways, I think that actually works better than the arms race because you get guys who learn to play together as a team, which is why Chicago, despite several crucial injuries, is better than Miami right now.

Getting that start player isn't easy, but we've seen several come through recently in guys like Rose, Wall, pre-injuries Roy, Durant, and, to a lesser extent Granger, Jennings, etc.

Bottom line is that I don't necessarily need a championship as long as I have a team that can legitimately compete for one. All of those super teams-- Celtics, Heat, and Lakers-- are very beatable. In fact, all three of these teams have very good chances of melting down if a feisty enough team plays them hard.

Small markets are DEFINITELY at a disadvantage in the NBA. However, the Knicks are exhibit A for management having as much to do with success as city allure. Sidenote: LOVING Denver's success compared to the Knicks.

[Wolfpackbobcat]

Hard cap will solve a lot of problems. Also limit the number of max contracts per team.

[Absinthe]

I feel your pain, for sure, Absinthe. The NBA is very frustrating with its arms race style team building. However, I do think it's still possible to build a winner in a small market. I think the key is to find at least one young star player with a good attitude. Durant is a perfect example of that. Rose in Chicago is another example. If you get one guy to make everybody else better, you can get the other talent. In some ways, I think that actually works better than the arms race because you get guys who learn to play together as a team, which is why Chicago, despite several crucial injuries, is better than Miami right now.

Getting that start player isn't easy, but we've seen several come through recently in guys like Rose, Wall, pre-injuries Roy, Durant, and, to a lesser extent Granger, Jennings, etc.

Bottom line is that I don't necessarily need a championship as long as I have a team that can legitimately compete for one. All of those super teams-- Celtics, Heat, and Lakers-- are very beatable. In fact, all three of these teams have very good chances of melting down if a feisty enough team plays them hard.

Small markets are DEFINITELY at a disadvantage in the NBA. However, the Knicks are exhibit A for management having as much to do with success as city allure. Sidenote: LOVING Denver's success compared to the Knicks.

San Antonio isn't a great example. They had a shitty year, drafted Tim Duncan (who ended up being one of the best NBA players of all time), got lucky with finding some gems like Tony Parker, and here they are with some rings. There was a lot of luck involved with that. A lot of hypotheticals could spring from their success, but hypotheticals are bullshit. It would be like saying, "Well, what would have happened to the Bobcats as a franchise if Orlando selected Okafor with the number one pick instead of Dwight Howard?" It's silly to entertain a scenario where San Antonio doesn't land Duncan, etc. So yeah, they got very lucky in the draft. After those three major players retire the San Antonio franchise will be boned for a long, long time. No one will sign there and what are the chances that they'll draft another all time great like Duncan? Very low. They'll be a mediocrity for years. Hell, they're fool's gold this year.

Oklahoma City are winners, but not contenders. This all goes back to my initial point. They have some fantastic players and a solid bench but they'll never beat the Lakers in a seven game series. I can't foresee them beating Boston or Miami in a series neither. Ironically, the Lakers, Heat, and Celts are all teams that have recently won it all. By the time Gasol, Pierce, Kobe, Ray Allen, and Garnett retire will the same Oklahoma City nucleus be intact? Doubtful. Even if they do, the Heat, New York, etc. will be powerhouses. A franchise cannot win for losing.

I just can't understand how some fans can be content with early exits in the playoffs. What you're telling me is that being first rounder fodder is completely fine with you. It's like saying, "The first round is our championship!"

[dnbman]

I just can't understand how some fans can be content with early exits in the playoffs. What you're telling me is that being first rounder fodder is completely fine with you. It's like saying, "The first round is our championship!"

First round fodder is a different argument though. OKC has done pretty well in the playoffs. Utah was a solid contender for the last few years. Phoenix had a nice run of games. You could argue that foolish rise from the bench from Amare cost them a championship. Those are all teams that are not big cities that made very strong playoff pushes.

Again, all things being equal, those teams will win out in free agency. However, I think if a team can get a quality star that connects with the franchise, they have a chance.

By the way, I didn't mention San Antonio.

[SWedd523]

luck

That's exactly what it's going to take for a small market team to be a contender.

[Dcarnys]

That's exactly what it's going to take for a small market team to be a contender.

Sad but true, unless the new CBA works wonders which it probably won't.

[BlockParty]

Sad but true, unless the new CBA works wonders which it probably won't.

I think the CBA will bring favorable changes to the small market teams (to try to prevent the top 10 markets from stock piling the top 50 players in the league). The non-large market teams can out vote the other owners (assuming they haven't already). This is one of the things that makes sense when MJ pulled the trigger on unloading GW (which was done in December). I just hope the Cats haven't cut payroll in the scouting department. As San Antonio has shown, doing your homework on draft picks will pay dividends for many years with the rookie pay scales.

[teej]

I just hope the Cats haven't cut payroll in the scouting department.

It's impossible to cut payroll when next to nothing is spent...

[Absinthe]

So the playoffs are here and it's just another year in the NBA.

The Lakers have played like absolute shit the couple of weeks, still end up with the number 2 seed due to other teams tanking, and end up having to play against the worst team that made the playoffs this year (New Orleans). Their walk to the Finals is a cakewalk at this point. I hate the NBA.