The Lockout Thread

[ziggy]

We are a few days away from the lockout becoming official. Lets use this thread to discuss all things lockout related. Negotiations, CBA changes, etc.

My first question is How long do you guys think the lockout will drag on? I think that we will miss a MINIMUM of 35 games with the outside chance that the entire season will be scrapped

[Chef]

We are a few days away from the lockout becoming official. Lets use this thread to discuss all things lockout related. Negotiations, CBA changes, etc.

My first question is How long do you guys think the lockout will drag on? I think that we will miss a MINIMUM of 35 games with the outside chance that the entire season will be scrapped

i agree with you zig. i am sad.

we need to commence with losing games. we can't afford a full season lockout and a #9 pick with this super stacked draft coming up.

if a deal isn't done by august it won't be done for a long long time.

[BRNC]

I'm kinda leaning toward Chuck at this point...I think it will be nasty/contentious so I'd not be surprised to see the whole season gone...

[ND22]

I really am clueless on the details of the lockout, I'm assuming it is worse than the NFL's? A shorter season or none at all would be dreadful. :(

[Chef]

I really am clueless on the details of the lockout, I'm assuming it is worse than the NFL's? A shorter season or none at all would be dreadful. :(

i think it is actually a better situation than the nfl. i could easily see the nfl going a full year.

[BlockParty]

I hope it won't be for a long time, we are young team that needs time together on the court against competition.

Here is the letter STH received in relation to getting our money back for games that end up getting cancelled.

"Thank you for your continued support of the Charlotte Bobcats. You are an important part of this team, and any success we achieve as an organization is a direct result of your support and participation.

Over the last few weeks I have heard concerns from Season Ticket Holders about a potential work stoppage in the NBA, and the effect that might have on next season and their ticket investment. First let me assure you that all of the league's efforts are focused on reaching an agreement that is in the best interests of the fans, teams, players, and the game. The goal is to find a sustainable business model that enables all 30 teams to compete for a championship, fairly compensates players, and ensures a world-class experience for fans.

In the event that a new agreement is not reached in time to avoid missing games, we have a plan already in place to protect your investment. There will be two options for you to choose from, and either of them will reward your faith in and support of us with interest on your financial commitment.

Option 1: Select our "Bobcats Loyalty Reward" option and keep your money on account and you will earn a 5% annual interest rate beginning on October 1st, 2011. Interest will be applied as account credit that can be used toward the NBA Playoffs or toward your 2012-13 account. Credit will be accrued monthly based on the number of missed games.


Option 2: Allows you to receive refunds on any missed games plus a 1% annual interest rate. Refunds will be issued monthly based on the number of games missed.


Hopefully neither of these options will be necessary, but we developed this plan to ensure that the most important people in this equation, our Season Ticket Holders, are completely protected in the event of a work stoppage.

To select your option please call your Account Manager, __________________

Thank you again for your loyalty and support. We look forward to rewarding you with the kind of team that will make you proud both on and off the court.

Sincerely,


Fred A. Whitfield
President & COO
Bobcats Sports and Entertainment

[ND22]

i think it is actually a better situation than the nfl. i could easily see the nfl going a full year.

See it is my understanding that the NFL lockout is getting closer to ending, and no games will be missed. I could be completely off though.

And at least the team is offering STHs options.

[SWedd523]

We need as many games as possible for a few reasons


1. As others have said, the only way these young guys can improve and gain experience/familiarity with each other is actual PT on the floor
2. We already have a weak fan base. An extended lockout just gives the casuals another excuse to not attend
3. The fewer games we play, the lesser chance we have of attaining a top 3-5 pick. If there's a full season lockout, we'll likely pick 9th again. That means say goodbye to the Barnes', Millers, and Beals of the world.

[Dcarnys]

Honestly, the lockout is friggin idiotic. I'm sick that we have to argue over people wanting more money when the mininum sallary is somewhere aound 400k. Thats more then I'll EVER make in a year more then likely. Especially when basketball has the least room for team turnover then anyother of the Big 4. Just end this crap already, please!

Also, NFL, I hope your litsening.

[BRNC]

We need as many games as possible for a few reasons
1. As others have said, the only way these young guys can improve and gain experience/familiarity with each other is actual PT on the floor
2. We already have a weak fan base. An extended lockout just gives the casuals another excuse to not attend
3. The fewer games we play, the lesser chance we have of attaining a top 3-5 pick. If there's a full season lockout, we'll likely pick 9th again. That means say goodbye to the Barnes', Millers, and Beals of the world.

This^^^^^^^for us...but I'm disturbed with the owners that also own NHL teams...they (NHL also owners) are trying to convince the other owners it is better to lose the entire season now and get everything they can now...and that's exactly what they did with the NHL season lockout couple of years back...lost the entire season and got pretty much everything they wanted...

Losing the season in no way helps the 'Cats...

[dav7z]

I can see some of the owners position. The league needs a hard cap with out loop holes . Pairaity between small and large market teams has happen in ordor for the league to continue. Television revanews need to be split equal between the league. Small markets in the NBA don't have a chance with the agreement like it is now . Only about 10 teams are making a profit. Even merchandize sold should be split between the league and the player not the player and the team. Taxes should be taken into account concerning cap space .Example Florida players don't have no state tax , That could mean millions ovor a corse of a contract. I think thats a main reason the Heat and the Magic get all the big time talent.

Should teams have the right to cut existing contracts ? [Diop] Players who don't produce after a large contract is signed . How should revenue be split between the league, players, owners? Changes have to be made for the league to exist . Its plenty of money to go around . But its got to be split fairly through out the whole league. Not just a few teams or a few players . Bottom line changes have to be made to protect all involved.
Your thoughts

[BRNC]

Dav...not disagreeing at all with your analysis but those types of major chnages were the reason NHL lost a full season...as fans I think that's what we are going to have to be prepared to see happen...I doubt this will be a "fuzzy" lockout...

Addition:

I've just finished a couple of article...one that indicates owners will push for a 45 mil hard cap...this from (sun-sentinel) is not a bad read...reports now saying owners probably willing to sacrifice season...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/fl-nba-labor-update-0629-20110628-6,0,5035745.story

[Chef]

and with that the nba is locked out. i will largely be locking myself out of the nba and consequently this site for awhile. until there is major news otherwise. a rest will be nice. i will check back in from time to time though.

[CaptainJack1]

Fuck the lockout. That is all.

[ziggy]

If the entire season is lost, will the 2011-2012 draft teams hold the same positions, Or will there be another lottery?

It seems like a potentially huge haul of talent for the Cavs if teams were to hold the same positions.

[CaptainJack1]

When the NHL had their draft in 2005, right after completing a new deal, they held a lottery by picking teams at random for draft positions. I guess that is what would happen for the NBA as well.

[ND22]

When the NHL had their draft in 2005, right after completing a new deal, they held a lottery by picking teams at random for draft positions. I guess that is what would happen for the NBA as well.

Seems like the fairest option I just hope it doesn't come to that.

[ohara831]

If the entire season is lost, will the 2011-2012 draft teams hold the same positions, Or will there be another lottery?

It seems like a potentially huge haul of talent for the Cavs if teams were to hold the same positions.

I dont think teams would get duplicate picks. So I think the Clippers would end up with #1 since it was their pick that won the lottery. Cavs get #4, we get #9, and Portland would get #19, etc... it is possible that they would redraw ping pong balls for #1-#14 again I suppose. But no one gets multiple picks unless another trade is made. That is what I would expect to happen if we miss the season.

[TattoodCats4life]

I think they'd hold another lotto for the first 3 picks. Then any outstanding pick trades for the 2012 draft would be done as if we had a season i.e. trades like Miami trades their 2012 second round pick to Cleveland as part of the LeBron James trade. New Orleans trades a 2012 second round pick to Miami as part of the Marcus Thornton trade. Miami trades an option to swap 2012 first round picks to Cleveland as part of the LeBron James trade.would be in effect.

[Lextron]

I'm rooting hard for a hard cap as I know we all are. I don't think it will happen but any cap will help us.

One thing that is dumb is the NBA is watching the NFL lock out. The players are and will lose there and that will only help our NBA position.

I read the players "gave" a little last second. The NFL players never did. The NBA has more to lose though.

Fack.

A lockout thread should be in the main hall. It's bobcats future talk.

[Dcarnys]

A lockout thread should be in the main hall. It's bobcats future talk.

Agreed, unfortanatly its possbly one of the most important things for the future of this team. It could be the diffrence of becoming contenders or cellar dwellers again.

[spectre]

I'm rooting hard for a hard cap as I know we all are. I don't think it will happen but any cap will help us.

I'm not so sure of that at all.

[adam187]

Yeah, I'm confused as to how a hard cap helps out the small market teams so much. Let's say each team has 50 million to give out and that the max salary for a player is 10 million, just to keep the numbers simple. Now if I'm a player hitting free agency, I can either take the 10 million and go play for the Brooklyn Nets or LA Clippers or the Charlotte Bobcats or the Minnesota T-Wolves. What's the incentive to play in Charlotte or Minnesota if the money's the same? In New York or LA I'm getting a ton more exposure so my chance for money from advertising goes way up, plus there's more hot chicks.

The soft cap now allows for teams like Orlando with committed owners to overpay for players that normally probably wouldn't be interested in going there.

I feel like the only thing that the Hard Cap does is limit the chances of what happened in Miami and New York and Boston from happening, but even then I'm not sure how effective that will be.

Is there a counter argument to this? What is the benefit of the Hard Cap, other than the fact that Jordan is poorer than most other owners?

[spectre]

Exactly.

I think the mindset is that since fewer teams could stock up on the upper end talent teams like us would get some spillover. Thing is we'd be talking possibly getting at best a top 10-15 player and having to pay him what would be a maximum contract.

We can do that right now if we're willing to pay it. The main thing is for owners of small market teams to build the SMART way. It'd be harder than teams like LA & Miami...but certainly doable.

Hopefully the Cho acquisition has put us on that path.

I agree with Adam...it's all going to basically boil down to whether the owner(s) is/are willing to pay what it costs to get a contender.

[BlockParty]

Yeah, I'm confused as to how a hard cap helps out the small market teams so much. Let's say each team has 50 million to give out and that the max salary for a player is 10 million, just to keep the numbers simple. Now if I'm a player hitting free agency, I can either take the 10 million and go play for the Brooklyn Nets or LA Clippers or the Charlotte Bobcats or the Minnesota T-Wolves. What's the incentive to play in Charlotte or Minnesota if the money's the same? In New York or LA I'm getting a ton more exposure so my chance for money from advertising goes way up, plus there's more hot chicks.

The soft cap now allows for teams like Orlando with committed owners to overpay for players that normally probably wouldn't be interested in going there.

I feel like the only thing that the Hard Cap does is limit the chances of what happened in Miami and New York and Boston from happening, but even then I'm not sure how effective that will be.

Is there a counter argument to this? What is the benefit of the Hard Cap, other than the fact that Jordan is poorer than most other owners?

A hard cap helps small market teams because it reduces the overall payroll of NBA players (which is why the players are against it). If the average compensation of an NBA player is $5M/year, and they have 15 players, that's $75M/year per team. The Luxury tax ceiling is $70M, which means if you want to be an average NBA team you have to participate by over-paying for players (or being penalized dollar for dollar for the last $5M paid). Multiple that $5M by 30 teams and it's $150M per year. Compare it against the actual cap number of $58M and the difference is $17M/per team or $510M.

To correct things, that's on average $1M pay cut per player throughout the NBA, which is why we have a problem.

A hard cap would absolutely force teams to not overpay for players (at all levels). Joe Johnson would not get $20M+, teams would actually have to budget their player spending, not just ask their billionaire owner if it's ok to spend $90M. With $58M cap, that's approximately $11.5M per position (not starter). Portland (as an example of an overspending small market team, will soon have 5 players making at or over $10M per year-Aldridge, Wallace, Roy, Oden and Felton).

Solutions:

In a perfect world, they would have a more meaningful Cap (just some ideas..double or triple the luxury tax penalty, rule that if you go over the Cap you lose draft picks, or if two teams are tied at the end of the season, after head-to-head match-up, the team with the lowest payroll wins).

Non-guaranteed contracts (see PGA golf-you get paid after you perform well), or limited guarantee (see NFL where they routinely cut veterans that are no longer worth what they get paid).

Revenue sharing among the teams (Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Heat, Knicks and Mavs are great at the box office), but if you reduce the league by 80% of the teams, 80% of the games, local TV viewers, commercials and network broadcasts all disappear. There is a value to the NBA in having Laker fans in Charlotte (but if the Lakers never visited Charlotte, that fanbase would dwindle). This revenue sharing thing is something the Owners have to work out among themselves, but the lockout is an unintended consequence.

Generally speaking, the Max contract guys will still get their money, these labor disputes, lockouts, strikes are about the average player and the impact the new CBA has on them. Maybe the NBA & Stern will fall flat on their face and the next great group of NBA power forwards will become NFL tight-ends.

[BlockParty]

If the entire season is lost, will the 2011-2012 draft teams hold the same positions, Or will there be another lottery?

It seems like a potentially huge haul of talent for the Cavs if teams were to hold the same positions.


Here is the NHL's solution after they missed an entire season, still favoring the teams that sucked (but weren't awarded the #1 pick in any of the recent drafts)...and more importantly in a 7 round NHL draft, the subsequent rounds were done in snake pattern (if you picked last in round 1, you picked first in round 2, etc).

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26401


The Draft Drawing, a weighted lottery system, was used to determine the order of selection for all seven rounds of the Entry Draft. Under the weighted lottery system, the clubs that neither qualified for the Stanley Cup Playoffs in each of the 2001-02, 2002-03 and 2003-04 seasons, nor were awarded the first overall selection in each of the 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 Entry Drafts, had the greatest chance of receiving the first overall selection, 6.3 per cent. These clubs were the Penguins, Buffalo Sabres, Columbus Blue Jackets and New York Rangers.

Ten clubs met one of the seven criteria listed above and had a 4.2% chance of winning the Drawing, while the remaining 16 clubs met more than one of the criteria and had a 2.1% chance.

Forty-eight balls, numbered one through 48, were placed in a lottery machine. Three ball numbers were randomly assigned to each the Penguins, Sabres, Blue Jackets and Rangers; two ball numbers were assigned to the 10 clubs with a 4.2% chance; and one ball number was assigned to the 16 clubs with a 2.1% chance. The first ball expelled determined the winner of the first overall draft pick and it had been assigned to the Penguins.

After the first overall selection was awarded, another ball was expelled to determine which club, from among the 29 remaining, received the second overall pick. This process was continued until each of the 30 first-round draft positions was assigned.

PICKS IN SUBSEQUENT ROUNDS

The order of selection for the second round of the Entry Draft will be inverse of the order of selection for the first round (i.e. the club that selected 30th overall in the first round will select first overall in the second round). The order of selection for the third round will be the same as the order of selection of the first round and the order of selection will alternate each round thereafter.

Each club's overall draft pick positions will be determined next week, following the awarding of compensatory draft picks.

[spectre]

Hey, here's an idea! Let's expand that 75 or 100 mile radius to a 300 or 400 mile radius...maybe create some new fans!

Does anyone in here not think that the above wouldn't generate a lot more money for the Bobcats/Jordan and other small markets?

That, revenue sharing (thus taking away some incentive for the Lakers to spend 100 milloin on salaries) as well as a triple tax plus maybe added penalties like BP said above and we'd get more parity.

Guys would still want to play in the big cities/ South Beach...but you aren't going to change that.

You also aren't going to fix stupid no matter what you do.

[adam187]

A hard cap helps small market teams because it reduces the overall payroll of NBA players (which is why the players are against it). If the average compensation of an NBA player is $5M/year, and they have 15 players, that's $75M/year per team. The Luxury tax ceiling is $70M, which means if you want to be an average NBA team you have to participate by over-paying for players (or being penalized dollar for dollar for the last $5M paid). Multiple that $5M by 30 teams and it's $150M per year. Compare it against the actual cap number of $58M and the difference is $17M/per team or $510M.

To correct things, that's on average $1M pay cut per player throughout the NBA, which is why we have a problem.

A hard cap would absolutely force teams to not overpay for players (at all levels). Joe Johnson would not get $20M+, teams would actually have to budget their player spending, not just ask their billionaire owner if it's ok to spend $90M. With $58M cap, that's approximately $11.5M per position (not starter). Portland (as an example of an overspending small market team, will soon have 5 players making at or over $10M per year-Aldridge, Wallace, Roy, Oden and Felton).

Solutions:

In a perfect world, they would have a more meaningful Cap (just some ideas..double or triple the luxury tax penalty, rule that if you go over the Cap you lose draft picks, or if two teams are tied at the end of the season, after head-to-head match-up, the team with the lowest payroll wins).

Non-guaranteed contracts (see PGA golf-you get paid after you perform well), or limited guarantee (see NFL where they routinely cut veterans that are no longer worth what they get paid).

Revenue sharing among the teams (Lakers, Bulls, Celtics, Heat, Knicks and Mavs are great at the box office), but if you reduce the league by 80% of the teams, 80% of the games, local TV viewers, commercials and network broadcasts all disappear. There is a value to the NBA in having Laker fans in Charlotte (but if the Lakers never visited Charlotte, that fanbase would dwindle). This revenue sharing thing is something the Owners have to work out among themselves, but the lockout is an unintended consequence.

Generally speaking, the Max contract guys will still get their money, these labor disputes, lockouts, strikes are about the average player and the impact the new CBA has on them. Maybe the NBA & Stern will fall flat on their face and the next great group of NBA power forwards will become NFL tight-ends.

BP, I think I get a lot of what you're saying, but I'm still confused as to how the hard cap helps small market teams. In your example, you show how the soft cap actually benefits a team like Portland. If we get a hard cap, wouldn't we be saying goodbye to that Portland team and it's title hopes? I think owners only like the idea of a hard cap because it saves them money, it doesn't change anything else like the perceived quality of the organization and/or location.

I do understand what you're saying about the players needing to give back some of their salary so as not to make the cost of an average team so absurdly high. But it seems to me, and I could be totally off base here sorry, that you're working under the assumption that small market teams can't or won't shell out the same amount of money as big market teams and that's why a hard cap is beneficial. Certainly that is the case with us and plenty of other "small market" teams, but I don't know how universal that problem is.

I like a lot of the ideas you listed. I personally think, and could be totally wrong again, that the best way to help out small market teams would be a franchise tag like they have in the NFL. My only concern with better revenue sharing is seeing some NBA teams (I'm looking at you Phoenix) put out cheap products knowing that they'll see a profit from the revenue sharing. I think you see that type of thing in the MLB.

EDIT: BP and Spectre, you guys are throwing out some good ideas for sure, let's hope they're being considered.

[dav7z]

Lets say a hard cap of say just as a number 60 milion . Hears how small markets benefit .
Lets say the heat pay 17 mil each for the big three . Thats 51 milion of thair 60 . They still got 9 more players to pay with only the remaining 9 milion . Its going to be hard to get good talent at 1 mil per contract. With out loop holes such as the lux tax . The Heat can;t go over that 60 mil. That allows teams like Char to compeate in the salery market . Ever one is on a even playing field money wize. Whitch in theroy should create a lot more pairty in the league . Fans in small market teams knowing they have a fair chance to win suport thair teams more . creating more revenew. With only 8 teams in the league makeing money and 22 teams loseing money . The league long term can't exist . Pairty and sharing television revenue puts everone on a level playing field. Pairty all so gets small market teams more exposure . Instead of two national televised games per season we might get 10 . But all things being equal should create more instrest and more money league wide.

Problem what players get shafted , The rookies , The long term vets, The max contract guys ? I still belive in the rookie scale. I all so belive in a vetran minium. Mid to Big contracts is the ones thet should suffer. That being said means it could be long term lock out . Because players with lots of money can hold out much longer.

[Plowright]

When will the lockout end? lol

[ziggy]

This is an interesting move by Deron Williams. (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_0_0_t&usg=AFQjCNFgwljygGCoYgpCS5m_hCIz55Lq-w&did=d277863a5f15573f&sig2=7QEFaVYET2ooeb2HEcN92w&cid=8797722481010&ei=x0kWTsG9Kue6sgeppr-sAw&rt=SEARCH&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sltrib.com%2Fsltrib%2Fsports% 2F52146768-77%2Fwilliams-nba-team-jazz.html.csp)

I wonder if the owners seeing their huge investments playing ( and risking injury ) overseas might give them a reason to give in a little more in these negotiations.

[BlockParty]

This is an interesting move by Deron Williams. (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct2=us%2F0_0_s_0_0_t&usg=AFQjCNFgwljygGCoYgpCS5m_hCIz55Lq-w&did=d277863a5f15573f&sig2=7QEFaVYET2ooeb2HEcN92w&cid=8797722481010&ei=x0kWTsG9Kue6sgeppr-sAw&rt=SEARCH&vm=STANDARD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sltrib.com%2Fsltrib%2Fsports% 2F52146768-77%2Fwilliams-nba-team-jazz.html.csp)

I wonder if the owners seeing their huge investments playing ( and risking injury ) overseas might give them a reason to give in a little more in these negotiations.

I think playing overseas is a bigger risk for the players. If they are injuried, insurance will kick in for the NBA team after the lockout is over and the longest contract is 5 years at the most. For the player, a catastrophic injury is forever.

Not to mention the recession hit other countries worse then the US and the accomodations (in most cases) will not be as nice.

Maybe it will help the lockout by having the players appreciate how good they really have it in the NBA.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Scottley Crue]

Ken Berger is doing a three-part series on his ideas regarding a new CBA. This part deals with the salary cap. I do like his ideas about being able to restructure contracts the way the NFL does. I do believe a hard cap would be helpful to small market teams, but the ability to get out of (or in this case, restructure) bad, burdensome contracts would be just as or even more important in my mind.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15301853/nfl-provides-model-for-nba-to-repair-dysfunctional-cap

[TheGayKid]

:clapping: Great job owners and players

[TattoodCats4life]

One positive ray of light, if your a "true" basket ball fan, and will watch anything with a ball, hoop, and tall people putting one into the other...D-League is not going to be affected by the lockout. I see NBA TV, Spike, and maybe even TNT showing a lot more of these games, because at least its the above mentioned combination of things...and will hold us over.

[ziggy]

One positive ray of light, if your a "true" basket ball fan, and will watch anything with a ball, hoop, and tall people putting one into the other...D-League is not going to be affected by the lockout. I see NBA TV, Spike, and maybe even TNT showing a lot more of these games, because at least its the above mentioned combination of things...and will hold us over.

My basketball jones is pretty bad. If there are no games in November, I'll probably try to catch as many high school games as I can.

[TheGayKid]

I'd definitely be up for watching D-League games, especially if they involve the Bobcat's affiliate team.

[Lextron]

not looking like they are taking this seriously yet.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/6824510/david-stern-derek-fisher-join-nba-labor-talks-first-time

[ziggy]

How many of you guys think we are going to miss the entire 2011-2012 season

[Lextron]

/raises hand

[spectre]

NBA season likely to be canceled, union chief says at seminar (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ba-sp-nba-bar-association-0704-20110803,0,5328856.story)


NBA Players Association (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/national-basketball-players-association/ORSPT000444.topic) executive director Billy Hunter said Wednesday that if he "had to bet on it," he would wager that the entire 2011-12 season would be wiped out by the lockout.

"We're $800 million apart per year," Hunter told about 200 people during a seminar at a conference in Baltimore of the National Bar Association, an organization of predominantly African-American lawyers and judges.

The union chief said NBA (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/basketball/national-basketball-association-15008001.topic) commissioner David Stern (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/basketball/david-stern-PEBSL000509.topic) was being limited in negotiations by hard-line owners.

[ziggy]

If we miss the entire season I will be miserable... I need my NBA. I'm going into hoops withdrawal already.

[ohara831]

Spectre beat me to the punch. Just was the article and was going to post it. I hope this is just posturing by the Union to let the owners know the players are prepared for th worst. But if the players can actually make some money by playing overseas, I bet the odds are good we miss the season. Sucks.

[CaptainJack1]

I hope they come to a deal quick. A shortened season would suck but would be better than nothing. No season would be a huge blow to the league.

At least the NFL will be in full-effect.

[Scottley Crue]

I believe talk like Hunter's is very much public posturing at this point. They're in that stage of negotiations at this point...a lot a bluster but little productivity. They'll move to the productive stage once it becomes a real possibility of lost games and lost money. We'll see from there. I could see a shortened season, but in my gut I'm just not feeling a lost season.

[dnbman]

I believe talk like Hunter's is very much public posturing at this point. They're in that stage of negotiations at this point...a lot a bluster but little productivity. They'll move to the productive stage once it becomes a real possibility of lost games and lost money. We'll see from there. I could see a shortened season, but in my gut I'm just not feeling a lost season.

I just posted basically the same thing in another thread. Agree completely.

By the way, Bucher's Tweets have been pretty interesting.
http://twitter.com/#!/RicBucher

[Thomas Beck]

I hope some players ferarris get repo'd...Maybe that can bring some egos back to earth.

I wish my boss paid me no matter how i treated clients, acted in my personal life or if i was not profitable. But business doesnt work like that. So why should the NBA?

Bottom line is this...you can fill the teams with new players...you can't make another NBA...

[spectre]

I hope some players ferarris get repo'd...Maybe that can bring some egos back to earth.

I wish my boss paid me no matter how i treated clients, acted in my personal life or if i was not profitable. But business doesnt work like that. So why should the NBA?

Bottom line is this...you can fill the teams with new players...you can't make another NBA...

Yeah, they should just do replacement players. I'd certainly pay 100$ to sit in the lower level and watch D League guys.

The players ARE the commodity. Without the players there is no NBA nor is the pool of money they're arguing over there to begin with.

[Thomas Beck]

Yeah, they should just do replacement players. I'd certainly pay 100$ to sit in the lower level and watch D League guys.

The players ARE the commodity. Without the players there is no NBA nor is the pool of money they're arguing over there to begin with.


So in your opinion there would be a pool of money to argue with if there were no owners? The only money to argue without owners would be at the rucker goodman and drew leagues....not the NBA...

The players are a commodity that no one will pay $100 to sit in the lower bowl to watch as it is now...Hence the problem.

If the the players are such a commodity than why are 22 teams in the red? If we go by your theory that the players produce the money than theres only 96 players who are commodities producing positive returns for those selling them.(12 commodities x8 profitable teams)

[dnbman]

So in your opinion there would be a pool of money to argue with if there were no owners? The only money to argue without owners would be at the rucker goodman and drew leagues....not the NBA...

The players are a commodity that no one will pay $100 to sit in the lower bowl to watch as it is now...Hence the problem.

If the the players are such a commodity than why are 22 teams in the red? If we go by your theory that the players produce the money than theres only 96 players who are commodities producing positive returns for those selling them.(12 commodities x8 profitable teams)

The players are unquestionably the commodity. If you remove all of the stars from the league, the NBA ship would sink quickly. Replace the entire pool, and you'd have a horrific league and even worse business.

You might argue that the league needs to contract or that teams need to get better at signing players and producing teams, but a league that markets itself as the best in the world has to have the world's best players. The teams make money off of owning the rights to get these guys in groups and market their talents. It's not the players fault that so many teams have done such a more job of that. Nobody made the owners give out overpriced contracts.

[spectre]

So in your opinion there would be a pool of money to argue with if there were no owners? The only money to argue without owners would be at the rucker goodman and drew leagues....not the NBA...

The players are a commodity that no one will pay $100 to sit in the lower bowl to watch as it is now...Hence the problem.

If the the players are such a commodity than why are 22 teams in the red? If we go by your theory that the players produce the money than theres only 96 players who are commodities producing positive returns for those selling them.(12 commodities x8 profitable teams)

Of course there has to be "owners", but there would be no owners without the commodity...which is the premiere players. The Lakers don't sell out the cable box because Dr. Buss is coming to town.

Lebron made about 65 million during his tenure with Cleveland. Dan Gilbert saw his franchise grow in value about 260 million during that same time. Tell me...was that Gilbert or Lebron?

This season the NBA had the 3rd highest attendence in league history...so people ARE buying tickets. Didn't this years' playoffs have one of the highest viewerships in history?

If you've followed this team at all you'd know why franchises are losing money...or do you think Gana Diop really should make over 14 million the next 2 seasons? Did Drew Gooden deserve that 32/5 contract he just signed last year? Whose fault was that?

No doubt the system needs to be tweaked, but the funny thing in all this is that the 3rd party involved in this isn't being mentioned at all.

[BlockParty]

The blame belongs to the owners and the league, but the solution involves a substantial cut in the overall players wages (20-25% is where it will probably be compromised, the Owners are currently asking for 30%+ in player cuts).

The owner's/league office are to blame because they have existed without a system that is sustainable for all franchises throughout the league. The large market teams (NY, CHI, LA, Boston, etc), and those with billionaire owners (Dallas/Portland) will continue to thrive, but the remaining teams (the majority) need extensive restructuring with the current CBA. A hard cap, the ability to waive a player and terminate a portion of their contract due to performance are two of the main things that need to happen. The hard cap is more likely to occur, but long-term, guaranteed contracts make little sense in league with so many with questionable skill sets.

I agree the players are the "commodity", but similar to Hollywood movies, the movie stars sell the tickets, but the movies don't happen without a production company that is willing to underwrite the cost of the movie production (could be another thread of biggest $$ busting movies of all item Ishtar). Pro sports is a bit different from the Movies though, sports teams need other sports teams to play. Harry Potter movies do well at the box office whether Will Smith has a movie out then or not.

Quiet honestly, the Bobcats ownership will probably not incur much different a loss with or without the Bobcats this season, long-term it will have an impact, but short-term is unfortunately what most decisions are based up. This reality, and the failure of the players to realize that going overseas for 50% less pay and substandard everything (hotels, flights, meals, venues, lifestyle) is not a better option then giving in to the owners. That's not intended to be a knock on Euroball, it's just the reality that the US isn't the only country in the world and the Euroleague's don't have the huge TV contracts that affords them the ability to over pay for sports professionals (not including futbol/soccer).

[Thomas Beck]

Of course there has to be "owners", but there would be no owners without the commodity...which is the premiere players. The Lakers don't sell out the cable box because Dr. Buss is coming to town.

Lebron made about 65 million during his tenure with Cleveland. Dan Gilbert saw his franchise grow in value about 260 million during that same time. Tell me...was that Gilbert or Lebron?

This season the NBA had the 3rd highest attendence in league history...so people ARE buying tickets. Didn't this years' playoffs have one of the highest viewerships in history?

If you've followed this team at all you'd know why franchises are losing money...or do you think Gana Diop really should make over 14 million the next 2 seasons? Did Drew Gooden deserve that 32/5 contract he just signed last year? Whose fault was that?

No doubt the system needs to be tweaked, but the funny thing in all this is that the 3rd party involved in this isn't being mentioned at all.

I think your lebron example illustrates my point...Other than 5 maybe 10 players there is no one in the league that people will pay to see...No point in negotiating like every player is a lebron or Kobe.

Besides, Dan Gilbert Bought the franchise for 375 million and lost 26% of his value in the past year. According to forbes the franchise is worth less now than it was when he bought it. So despite having the most marketable player in the entire sport he still lost money. Even having lebron james is not profitable.

Again according to forbes they pay 90 mil in player expenses and only bring in 54 million in gate reciepts...doesnt sound like players need more money to me. Sounds like the Commodity is not as valuable as people think...

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/basketball-valuations-11_Cleveland-Cavaliers_324902.html

[spectre]

I think your lebron example illustrates my point...Other than 5 maybe 10 players there is no one in the league that people will pay to see...No point in negotiating like every player is a lebron or Kobe.

Of course you do!

So now we're removing the super stars out of your statement "Bottom line is this...you can fill the teams with new players...you can't make another NBA..." ?


Besides, Dan Gilbert Bought the franchise for 375 million and lost 26% of his value in the past year. According to forbes the franchise is worth less now than it was when he bought it. So despite having the most marketable player in the entire sport he still lost money. Even having lebron james is not profitable.

Um...he didn't have Lebron this past year. when he DID have Lebron the year previous the franchise was valued at 477 million per your link. In losing Lebron the "value" dropped 125 million.

Note this isn't real money...but valuation.

Hell, while you're there going back over your article read this part too:


The skinny:
Dan Gilbert's franchise took a big hit when LeBron James bolted for Miami during the off-season. Without James, the Cavs are worth 26% less than a year ago. During the 2009-10 season the Cavaliers had the league's top local television ratings, averaging 8.6. Attendance at Quicken Loans Arena, which the Cavs operate, averaged 20,562, second behind only the Bulls. But life will be tougher without James. After winning more than 60 games for two consecutive seasons the Cavs won just 8 of their first 40 games this season. Fans are sticking by the team for now as the team's consecutive sell-out streak is still going at 100 games, but many of those tickets were sold before James announced his decision. Perhaps in response to the departure of James, a Chinese investment group that was expected to finalize the purchase of 15% of the team last year, has apparently pulled out of the deal.
Again according to forbes they pay 90 mil in player expenses and only bring in 54 million in gate reciepts...doesnt sound like players need more money to me.

Gate receipts were 54 million...but their REVENUE was 161 million! Players do generate money for franchises in ways other than gate receipts.


Sounds like the Commodity is not as valuable as people think...

Sounds like the Commodity was pretty damn valuable to Dan Gilbert to me.

[ohara831]

I'm not picking one side over the other. I think they both are making way too much money. They need to give some to me. Maybe they should pay me $100/game to come to the games and cheer them on? I can deal with that number.

[ziggy]

If they miss the entire season, I imagine that in 2012-2013 they are going to have to do all kinds of crazy promotions ( not quite $100 per game :biggrin: ) to get borderline fans back into the arena. Diehard NBA junkies like us will show up, but its going to be a hard sell for everyone else.

[Scottley Crue]

I just posted basically the same thing in another thread. Agree completely.

By the way, Bucher's Tweets have been pretty interesting.
http://twitter.com/#!/RicBucher

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215138/Stern_Expects_Labor_Agreement_To_Prevent_Cancellat ion_Of_11_12_Season

From RealGM, here's Stern pretty much saying what we're saying about the posturing stage and when they'll get to business. Of course, there's also some fantastic "encouragement" towards the players here as well (not taking sides, just classic Stern in action).

On a side note, that headline just gets me..."Stern Expects Labor Agreement To Prevent Cancellation Of 11-12 Season"; that's like me saying that "I Expect the Sunrise to Cause the End of the Night."

[spectre]

Michael Jordan airs Andrew Bogut issue (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/michael-jordan-airs-andrew-bogut-issue/story-e6frf9if-1226117678752)


MICHAEL Jordan says it is critical to Andrew Bogut's championship aspirations that the crippling NBA lockout be resolved to give all teams an equal shot at the title. And the Chicago Bulls legend says Bogut is the ideal player around whom Milwaukee could become a title contender.

Jordan, majority owner and operations boss for the Charlotte Bobcats, is banned from elaborating on the rift between owners and players that threatens to destroy the upcoming season.

But he insists small-market teams, such as the Bobcats and Bogut's Bucks, will never be able to compete while the system allows clubs such as the Miami Heat to effectively pounce on free agents with blank cheques.

"The model we've been operating under is broken. We have 22 or 23 teams losing money, (so) I think we have gotta come to some kind of understanding in this partnership that we have to realign," Jordan said.

"I can't say so much ... but I know the owners are not going to move off what we feel is very necessary for us to get a deal in place where we can co-exist as partners. We need a lot of financial support throughout the league as well as revenue sharing to keep this business afloat.

"We have stars like Bogut who are entitled to certain type of demands. But for us to be profitable in small markets, we have to be able to win ballgames and build a better basketball team."

Jordan said small-market teams would benefit greatly from a "hard" salary cap, and it would allow clubs such as Milwaukee to plan a future on key players including the Australian centre.

"Bogut is a good piece to build around for Milwaukee," Jordan said.

"I love Bogut's game. He's made a very good start and he's definitely gonna be a star. His big problem is that he's been dealing with that elbow injury. But he is a star to be reckoned with (and) will be a star for some time."

Jordan, 48, a six-time NBA champion with the Bulls, will visit Australia for the first time in November as assistant coach of the American Presidents Cup golf team.

And he has still got the "hops" that made him famous. He was recently filmed dunking - with ease - during a Bobcats sponsors' camp, a video that has done the internet rounds.

[spectre]

Michael Jordan briefly mentions an NBA player, will definitely be fined (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Michael-Jordan-briefly-mentions-an-NBA-player-w?urn=nba-wp7568)

[ohara831]

Apparently the meeting today went very badly. Hunter said afterwards they notified players it may be necessary to sit out the entire year to get what they want. Ouch.

[Scottley Crue]

Apparently the meeting today went very badly. Hunter said afterwards they notified players it may be necessary to sit out the entire year to get what they want. Ouch.

I believe a lot of that was a show, to be honest. What I took from what I heard yesterday was that both parties seem to have agreed on how much money the players should get as a whole. It's now down to how that's distributed; the players wanting the status quo with the soft cap and exceptions and the owners wanting a hard cap. That's the gap that must be bridged now.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

Stern: Deal By Tuesday Or No Games Through Christmas

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215999/Stern_Deal_By_Tuesday_Or_No_Games_Through_Christma s#ixzz1alkqm0R6

[ohara831]

The players may be the commodity, but the owners hold the cards in this poker game. I think this is going to be resolved this coming week via Mediation. I think Stern is telling the truth that there will be no NBA the rest of 2011 if this is not resolved this coming week, and the players know it. I am more hopeful today than I was yesterday. The players will have no real option but to accept a new deal, and the owners have to come up a tiny bit to give the players the opportunity to say, "thank you for coming up and we accept."

All this talk about the players forming a new league is just talk. They dont have the ability to do it. Too much money, time, and setting the whole thing up will take them a year at the earliest. If they did something like that, it would be disasterous to them and they would lose tens of millions of dollars - if they were lucky.

[ohara831]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/10/14/2692944/union-fighting-off-doubts-from.html

And it starts. The Union will start to weaken, and the deal will be reached next week. If we are lucky.

[Scottley Crue]

The players' stance is just baffling to me. They have no leverage and the things they say when in front of a mic must make the league downright giddy. Yesterday they talked about how a prolonged lockout could force some teams to contract (1-That's BS; 2-Over Stern's dead body would that happen) and that if a season is missed it will take until 2023 to recover. If any of that is true, then that's more reason for the union to make a deal now...contraction means less jobs and the 2023 projection would mean depressed salaries for the players until then. There's just not a thing they say that hurts the owners financially that doesn't hurt the union more. They're truly getting some bad advice if they think holding out is the way to go. These past few weeks have proven something...this is why players play and owners own. For their own sake, the union needs to step back and look at what they're really doing to themselves.

That being said, hopefully the mediator will help build a bridge to get this deal done. Both sides definitely need a reality check and perhaps Cohen is the man to do it.

[ohara831]

Mediation going on now past 9 hours. I think this is a good sign. As a Mediator myself, I know that when you get parties a bit tired and hungry, they do tend to become a bit more agreeable to concessions. He must be making some progress. How much we dont know. But as long as you make progress, you keep going. Never call it a day and reconvene the next day when you have momentum on your side.

[ohara831]

11 hours and still going. Hope we get some good news.

[ohara831]

16 hours and very little progress. At least they are meeting again today. But this is bad. If no real progress is made today, more games will get cancelled. And I fear the season will likely be lost.

Not sure the millionaires and billionaires fully understand the damage they might be doing here. Once a season is lost and fans see that life goes on and they survive, there will be some that will no longer spend money coming to the games or buying jerseys. They may watch games on TV, but a steady stream of income will certainly be reduced. This is a very sad situation.

[Scottley Crue]

They certainly had a long way to go to make progress, so I'm somewhat encouraged by even small progress. You've got to start somewhere. From reading Ken Berger this morning, Cohen has apparently taken the emotion out of it and apparently yesterday was a good "building blocks" day. Hopefully Cohen can get things rolling a little further in the right direction.

Thought I'd add this...Memphis is considering suing the Grizzlies and the NBA for losses incurred during the lockout. I think every city that helped fund an NBA arena with public money should do the same. I'd love to see if cities could also now put some laws on the books that bite back at leagues for things like this. Actions like Memphis', if successful, could get the right people's attention.

http://www.sbnation.com/2011/10/18/2499298/nba-lockout-2011-memphis-grizzlies-lawsuit-fedex-forum

[ohara831]

Cannot believe the idiot rant of Bryant Gumbel. Stern is a plantation owner - right. This is a business dispute. Guys getting paid millions of dollars to play a game that we all love and just about every one of us would gladly take a players job if we had the skill. But this is nothing remotely similar to slavery. That kind of talk only does a grave disservice to th men, women and children who lived and died in that horrible time. Your kids getting sold for money by the slave master if he wished, women getting raped and if you got out of line you could get beaten to death. This kind of stupid talk does not belong in the discussion of an NBA Union-Owner dispute. No matter how you try to rationalize it, Gumbel is a complete moron for thinking this talk is applicable to this situation.

[CaptainJack1]

Well tonight was supposed to be the Heat preseason game in Raleigh. What a shame, I know some Raleigh people who were excited about it. Hopefully the RBC will host a Bobcats game in the future, be it preseason or emergency if somehow the TWCA were to become unusable.

[ohara831]

Looks like a compromise on the MLE is close. $5 mil but for only 3 years. Compromise on both sides and it seems fair. Really interested in the proposed Amnesty Clause. Looks like it would allow each team to take 1 undesirable contract, and get 75% of it removed from the Salary Cap over the life of the contract. The player would still get all the money owing him, it just helps the team from a Salary Cap point. The player automatically becomes a FA. My question is, if the player then signs a contract with a new team, does he still get the full pay from his former team? Is it reduced by the amount of his new contract? Seems like a bit of a windfall for the player if he gets both, but having the money come off the Salary Cap for the team is quite tempting. And it would be the team's decision to make his contract the amnesty one, I cannot blame the players at all for sticking to their guns and making sure the player gets both salaries.

[ohara831]

http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2011/10/new-revenue-sharing-big-for-bobcats.html


Yes!!! Great news for the Bobcats! Now, if the NBA and Union can get a deal done with the BRI at something below 53%, this will put the Bobcats in a much stronger position going forward. Very good to hear the small market teams were able to twist the arms of the major markets on the issue.

[Scottley Crue]

http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2011/10/new-revenue-sharing-big-for-bobcats.html


Yes!!! Great news for the Bobcats! Now, if the NBA and Union can get a deal done with the BRI at something below 53%, this will put the Bobcats in a much stronger position going forward. Very good to hear the small market teams were able to twist the arms of the major markets on the issue.

I agree, that is fantastic news. According to the NY Times, the revenue sharing will mean up to $15 million to some teams. As for the BRI, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a sliding scale along the lines of 50%-52% going to the players depending on what the revenues look like. But definitely, as long as the BRI comes down below 53% (and the mid-level supposedly coming down to 3 years at roughly $16 million total) this will be a major, major help to the Bobcats.

Revenue Sharing http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/sports/basketball/nba-talks-proceed-in-commissioner-david-stern-absence.html

Mid-Level: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/sports/basketball/nba-talks-proceed-in-commissioner-david-stern-absence.html

[ohara831]

And now the crappy news. Talks break off without agreement on BRI split. No future talks set at this time. Wonder how close it got, what was last offer, and who is stonewalling? Anyway, this news sucks and cannot be good for any hopes to a nearly full season.

[ohara831]

Went over to YahooSports.com to see some recent tweets from Wojo. Paints a very bleak picture as there seems to be nothing but a lot of anger and finger pointing going on since the parties separated today. Very sad news and it leaves you thinking this entire season could really be gone.

[Chef]

And now the crappy news. Talks break off without agreement on BRI split. No future talks set at this time. Wonder how close it got, what was last offer, and who is stonewalling? Anyway, this news sucks and cannot be good for any hopes to a nearly full season.

from the dueling pressers last night the league stopped at 50/50 and said they are firm. the players are at 52.5% and won't budge much from there. that may seem small but it is not. if cooler heads prevail the players would come down 1-1.5% and agree to 4 year max guaranteed or 6 year max/4 guaranteed contracts with an amnesty clause and we will be tipping off by Feb.

[ziggy]

Via yahoo sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AmAJ6GDFPxfn06RjXfP2f3m8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_labor_talks_breakdown_102011)


Union officials think the league’s hard-line owners – most of them in small markets who aren’t on the labor relations committee – are making it difficult for the two sides to reach a compromise. Hunter cited the Los Angeles Lakers’ Jerry Buss, the New York Knicks’ Jim Dolan, the Miami Heat’s Micky Arison and the Dallas Mavericks’ Mark Cuban as owners who are willing to make a deal.
“But I think there are a group of small-market owners who are dug in, and they’re carrying the day,” Hunter said.


Do you think MJ is one of those hardliners?

[spectre]

He's probably leading the charge.

Kind of ironic after what he said to Abe Pollin during the last lockout.

[ohara831]

I have no doubt MJ is one of the hardliners. But given the revenue sharing agreement that seems to be agreed upon by the owners, I dont necessarily think they need to insist on 50-50 on the BRI. I would think (hope) 51% Players and 49% NBA would work for them. But I dont know if the Players would agree to those numbers either. They seem to be insisting on 52.5% being their bottom line.

[SWedd523]

Good for him too. If I was in his position, I'd be doing the same thiing. Of course the owners from the Lakers, Heat, Mavs, and Knicks are willing to make a deal. They'll be paid regardless

[Scottley Crue]

Well, I guess I learned a few things (and/or had them confirmed) after that mess last night.

1-Considering how close the sides are on BRI, logic has clearly checked out at the moment. It's openly about "winning" the deal instead of making a deal.

2-With that in mind, I believe the lockout will end when the players give in and not a moment sooner. Right or wrong, the owners are making clear what they want to move forward. They have quite a long time to make up the money they lose. A player averages a shade under 5 years in the league. Are they willing to give up 20% of their career earnings for the cause? Twenty percent they don't have much of a chance to get back? I guess we'll see but I imagine that reality will set in at some point.

3-Although these meetings haven't produced a deal, I can guarantee not meeting at all will definitely not make a deal fall out of the sky. I don't think the urgency is quite there yet on either side to get things done. It will come, but it looks like we'll have to wait a little bit.

[Chef]

Well, I guess I learned a few things (and/or had them confirmed) after that mess last night.

1-Considering how close the sides are on BRI, logic has clearly checked out at the moment. It's openly about "winning" the deal instead of making a deal.

2-With that in mind, I believe the lockout will end when the players give in and not a moment sooner. Right or wrong, the owners are making clear what they want to move forward. They have quite a long time to make up the money they lose. A player averages a shade under 5 years in the league. Are they willing to give up 20% of their career earnings for the cause? Twenty percent they don't have much of a chance to get back? I guess we'll see but I imagine that reality will set in at some point.

3-Although these meetings haven't produced a deal, I can guarantee not meeting at all will definitely not make a deal fall out of the sky. I don't think the urgency is quite there yet on either side to get things done. It will come, but it looks like we'll have to wait a little bit.

re: 2.
one of the better things i have read perspective wise with respect to the players missing time. i am sure most of the players are not considering this one bit.

[Keetch]

Wojo has a good grip on this.

The Owner's are firm.

The players need to accept the 50-50 BRI and go play. It'll be fine. They have WAYYY to much to lose by holding out further.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AlPHbnLK5GpIGDo2MG8CuBu8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_owners_paul_allen_lockout_102111

[Keetch]

One more really good article from @jimcrandell

NBA players should read this http://t.co/QPiUu0a1 Basketball Talk pointed me at it..

http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/10/19/3457577/bill-guerin-to-nba-players-its.html

[dav7z]

Sorry guys i missed this thread and started posting on the other page my bad . I really feel this thing is about over with TNT still thinking its a chance for a 82 game season. I feel the owners will give some early next week. Owners with the money is all ready wanting to deal . I felt players was ready to get this thing done this week end . Im thinking the owners show the preposal on the luxery tax befor the split is agreeded on . If the luxery tax proposal isn't bad for the players a 50 ,51 % type split will be accepted .

[dav7z]

Looks like a 51 and a half and a 48 and a half is close . I still think it gets done this week?
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15850631/nba-deal-can-finally-be-done-if-reason-prevails

[ohara831]

Looks like a 51 and a half and a 48 and a half is close . I still think it gets done this week?
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15850631/nba-deal-can-finally-be-done-if-reason-prevails

Wojo reporting that the two sides were apparently speaking Mon and Tues which led to the meeting today. Said sources on both the Union and Owner sides are saying that both sides are giving some and progress being made. This is the best news in a few days.

[CaptainJack1]

Good, keep the good news coming (hopefully).

[adam187]

please end please end please end please end i want basketball please end

[dav7z]

Its a chance it could be over after today . wow
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216205/Sides_Need_Thursday_Meeting_To_Punch_It_Over_End_L ine

[ohara831]

Not today, but hopefully Friday!

[dav7z]

Looks as if a 82 game season can still happen.
Arenas being called to save dates ? Its all but over .
Things should be done today . If not Saturday .
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/28/sports/basketball/for-the-nba-negotiations-are-taking-baby-steps.html?_r=2&hp
Between the owners sharing of 90 extra Milion per season and a increased BRI split . The team should be making money.

Hands should shake today
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=At.MmHaTSQLLWZeHCPtisd28vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_labor_talks_102711

[ohara831]

Nov. games all gone. Owners want 50/50 on BRI, and Union wont go below 52/48. Seems neither side would agree to 51 Union / 49 Owners. Wow. This is very sad news. Each side will cut off their noses to spite their face. They will all lose more money by not playing than by agreeing to a deal. Unreal.

I dont think any of them fully realize the damage an enitre lost season can do. I consider myself a hard core fan. And many fans will return even if a full season is lost. But a whole lot wont. They will see that life goes on, and life is good. Other things will replace the NBA in their life. I can say honestly that I am not too terribly far from telling the entire Union and NBA to all f--- themselves. If a full season is lost, can I see myself walking away forever? Yes. Yes I can. It will be difficult at first, like quitting cigarettes after 20 years. Once the craving passes, you realize the hold it has on you is gone. And you move on and enjoy life. Heck, I might start watching cooking shows with my wife, or even Oprah Winfrey reruns. I dont want to miss the NBA season. I love the game and love chatting with Bobcat fans.

Let's wait and see what happens next.

[Scottley Crue]

The players continue to baffle me. If they have any sense, they'll get back at the table before the weekend's over and take the 50/50 deal. They can still salvage the full 82 games if they get it done over the weekend, which will be the last time the players will see a percentage that starts with a 5. I understand they feel like they're fighting for future players but the longer they hold out, the greater disservice they do themselves and the future players they're fighting for.

[teej]

Taking a brief break from my self-imposed lockout absence to say that Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher, Mo Evens, Jeffrey Kessler, and whoever else is on that team needs to share whatever drugs they're on.

Jesus H. Christ, guys. Everyone knows from Kindergarten on that a 50-50 spilt is fair, and you've been raping the owners for years now. We're in an epic recession that's bordering on going into a depression, and you're arguing over money that in Fisher and Evans' cases will probably end up being less than they could've made playing games now, since they'll be out of the league in a year or two anyways.

Dumbasses.

I'm not even mad that we're missing games, as long as it means the owners and players and league get a CBA that works. But for the love of God, pick your fights, this is a dumb one to pick.

Alright, I'm done venting, I'll be back after the new CBA is finished.

[Toocool]

Disappointed that it's shifted again from optimism to failure with the rest of November games cancelled.
Greed, it kills ya.

[ziggy]

According to Howard Beck, we are tantalizingly close (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/10/31/2737135/the-nba-deal-is-tantalizingly.html).

[BobCatsFanInTx]

78-game NBA season still possible: sources
Knicks Blog

By MARC BERMAN

Last Updated: 11:59 AM, October 30, 2011

Posted: 12:09 AM, October 30, 2011

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/sources_game_nba_season_still_possible_gB46RJ2TFuY uTlkkPnj7jO

[spectre]

Cut off at every turn, union has one choice: Take the deal - David Aldridge (http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/david_aldridge/10/31/nba-lockout-next-steps/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1)

[ohara831]

Billy Hunter may be making a really bad mistake. If he is trying to throw Fisher under the bus as being too close to Stern and being at fault for things not going the Union's way, he will suffer a huge backlash from the Players. Hunter is heading down a path where his legacy will be nothing but crap. NBA lockout, losing games, stabbing the head Player's Rep in the back......not a pretty picture.

[ohara831]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216281/Big_Baby_Wants_A_Deal_At_51_Percent

Big Baby speaking words of wisdom. Everything is lining up for a 51-49 split. So let's play some ball! Come on and get it done!

[spectre]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216281/Big_Baby_Wants_A_Deal_At_51_Percent

Big Baby speaking words of wisdom. Everything is lining up for a 51-49 split. So let's play some ball! Come on and get it done!

I doubt it. According to Woj most of the small market owners don't even want to do the 50-50. Stern's having a hard enough time keeping that on the table.


Rest assured, there’s a vast gulf in the union, and it’s growing with the passing of every day. Players Association president Derek Fisher’s (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3125/)(notes) (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3125/news) letter to the players convinced no one otherwise. NBA commissioner David Stern and the owners know it, and it’s part of the reason they won’t raise their offer of the BRI revenue split to 51 percent. There are system issues that need to be resolved for players, but this deal gets done at 50-50, and that’s been true for a long, long time.


Stern is holding back the hawkish owners who want to pull the 50 percent offer off the table. The hardline owners are indeed pushing Stern to drop the league’s offer back under 50 percent as games are missed, but as one high-ranking official said: “The others realize that if you do that, you will lose a season. If the players will not take 50 now, they will not take less than 50 until they sit the whole year.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_lockout_billy_hunter_110111

[ohara831]

^^^ I just saw that article. I wonder if this is just some posturing by the NBA on the matter. So that they look like they are getting a compromise from the Owners to do a deal at 51-49? Gotta figure that if the majority of the Owners are hell bent on something less than 50/50, I dont see a season happening this year.

[spectre]

I think if they took it to the players to vote the current deal Stern has on the table would get a majority vote. If the writers are correct and the union is starting to fracture against Hunter I expect that vote happening sooner rather than later.

[Scottley Crue]

I think if they took it to the players to vote the current deal Stern has on the table would get a majority vote. If the writers are correct and the union is starting to fracture against Hunter I expect that vote happening sooner rather than later.

I agree with you about the vote. I've read from numerous reporters who've talked to player directly that the players would most likely pass the 50/50 deal to get paid and get back to work. I'd really like to see the rank-and-file call for a straw poll to see where things really stand. The splintering of the Union can be dangerous because that can make it harder to do a deal if their house is in disarray. I hope they can hold it together long enough to get to that straw-poll type vote.

[ohara831]

Really hope that something happens when the Union people get together Thursday. Maybe they start to come around and we can get back to the game.

Looks like more meeting set for Saturday. At least a little good news.

[ohara831]

Players huffing and puffing about decertifacation and lawsuits. Seems we just saw all this play out a few months ago, didn't we? Players will win at the Lower Court level, NBA will win at the Appellate Court level. This will all cost time and money and not do a darn thing to get us back to playing ball.

I think people on both sides of this matter are overestimating the hold the NBA has on its fan base. Missing an entire year will cost them not only some fans, but money in TV rights, etc... They are really going to do some damage to the product as a whole. The NBA does not have a hold on its fans the way the NFL does. It is closer to MLB than to the NFL. And if they screw this thing up, they may find themselves more on par with the NHL than they ever thought possible.

[ohara831]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216322/Jordan_Leads_Hardline_Opposition_To_Giving_Players _More_Than_50_Percent

Have to love this game they are playing out publicly. Good strategy I think. The players let out a leak about 50 of their players talking with an Atty about Decertification. The NBA leaks this next about 1/3 - just under 1/2 not wanting to go past 47% BRI for players, while the slim majority would agree to a 50/50 split and no Owners will go beyong 50/50. This game of leaks is fun to watch play out. My guess it the Owners are banking on the Players realizing the season will be lost, and will not return for some time, unless they take the 50/50 deal. That way, the players can say they divided the Owners and got the best deal possible. But behind closed doors, every owner in the NBA would be very happy with the 50/50 split.

[superb1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/05/sports/basketball/hard-line-factions-threaten-latest-nba-negotiations.html?_r=2&ref=sports

Well we were wondering where Jordan stood at during these proceedings. Got our answer.

[Dcarnys]

Can't say this is a surprise.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I am with MJ and the owners he is with. The players had it really good and they are not going to have it so good any longer. BooHoo The economy sucks and that is just a fact that the players are going to have to accept. I wish I could have things as "BAD" as these poor players.

[ziggy]

what do you guys think the chances are that players union would actually be decertified? If that were to happen, would the acceptance of a player/management agreement simply need a majority vote from the players?

[ammofan]

Im not really on a side in all this and I dont care to really elaborate right now....but I think the players need to realize they are the employees. They work for the owners. Its not the other way around. 50-50 offer is fine. Lets go. Time to get back in TWCA so I can pay 10 bucks for some Bojangles every night and watch Bismack send some shots into row 10.

[ohara831]

If that happens, then I think the Owners screw themselves by having a season. Three would not be any salary limitations, and the salaries would likely go beyond the BRI limits the Owners want. Big market teams will simply buy up all the best talent. I dont see them playing unless there is some sort of Agreement and CBA. I dont understand the full rules which would apply, but I think the salary paid to the players would go way beyond what the Owners and Players are currently arguing over, dont you think?

[SWedd523]

Nothing will happen if they decertify.

The NFLPA decertified and what happened? They had a signed CBA not too much later. It's just another one of those ploys to garner some leverage.

[Scottley Crue]

The fun about decertification is this...the NLRB may not even allow the Union to do it. David Aldridge had an article a few weeks ago that quoted a lawyer with the NLRB saying that they didn't think a decert would be allowed. As I understand it, a union can decertify if a simple majority of it's members don't want to be in that union, not because they're looking to gain leverage in negotiations with management. Considering the timing of the decert (were it to happen, which I highly doubt...don't think enough players want to do that), I'd tend to believe the NLRB wouldn't allow it.

All that being said, it's really the last piece of leverage the players have. They could force a vote on decertification, which would take 45-60 days. That may put pressure on the owners to move on a deal before that vote takes place, but I doubt that works for them either. I'd really like to see Stern and Hunter work out a deal, take it back to their sides and dare the hardline factions on each side to vote it down. It doesn't appear that either hardlines have the majority, so that may be their best bet.

**Aldridge Artcile--look under section called "Dribbles"
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/david_aldridge/10/17/morning-tip-labor-update/index.html

[superb1]

hey guys someting ironic and funny at the same time about MJ stance.

During an early October meeting in Manhattan, Jordan sparred with Wizards owner Abe Pollin in front of Stern, other owners and more than 100 players. After an impassioned Pollin, the league's senior owner, talked of his struggle to keep his team, Jordan interrupted. "If you can't make it work economically, you should sell the team."
Now, Jordan is the owner who can't make it work economically. Funny how the tables have turned.

http://dc.sbnation.com/washington-wizards/2011/11/4/2538734/michael-jordan-nba-lockout-owners

[superb1]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/sources-minority-stake-michael-jordan-s-charlotte-bobcats-sale-article-1.972284?localLinksEnabled=false

[SWedd523]

superb, most of those links have already been posted in the other lockout thread. I'm going to merge them

[SWedd523]

As for the sale. I find some of that story extremely hard to believe.



If one guy has been approached to buy about 50%, that would require ALL minority owners to sell their stake AND MJ to give up around 30% as well. I don't see that being possible.

[ohara831]

http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/05/sheridan-column-on-con-games-and-lockout-settlements/

Interesting take on the negotiations.

[superb1]

ok np......

[ohara831]

Man, there is a whole ton of anger out there in the NBA right now. I am not feeling very good at all about a deal being accepted by Wednesday. Got a real bad feeling there wont be any NBA at all this year. And that really bums me out.

[spectre]

Players offered 51%, but we don't know the stipulations that came with. Most likely they're still fighting for the big markets keeping those exception; good to see the owners holding firm on that one.

It really sounds like they're very very close. If Hunter/Fisher would just throw it to the players to vote on what the owners are offering we'd be thinking about the start of the season...yet they won't do that.

Let them be heard!

[ohara831]

I agree Spectre. If the players took a vote, I bet the terms would be agreed upon. But it would have to be a private vote. Too much pressure if they were forced to do a hand count or other form of voting where the votes of each individual were known.

[Scottley Crue]

I'm with Spectre and Ohara. I'd be willing to bet that the League's proposal would pass as well. I'm willing to bet Stern thinks that too since he gave until Wednesday for their answer. Shoot, Fisher and Hunter know it would pass--that's why they're sitting on it. I really, really hope the union members push hard for a vote on this. Woj just tweeted a little bit ago that in talking with players, he'd be surprised if there isn't a push from membership to vote on this proposal. He's not sure how many that push would include, but it seems that there's a faction pushing for that just as well as the ones pushing for decertification.

[ohara831]

ESPN had a scroll that per Sports Illustrated, Kobe is saying that a 50/50 with the right terms was worth taking and not worth missing a season over. Once you get a few big dogs like Kobe talking about accepting an offer, I think the offer may come to a vote and be accepted. At least a little good news starting to come out.

[Plowright]

NBA season would be starting tonight i think :( bad times. On the bright side i might actually do some work. Would rather have the NBA tho

[SWedd523]

Season was supposed to start on the first.

[dav7z]

Kobe willing to accept a 50% split
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7202117/nbpa-mandatory-meeting-player-representatives-tuesday-sources-say


Union, thinks a few tweeks and it could be worked out ,

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216387/Union_Wants_To_Meet_With_NBA_Before_Wednesday


Hard line owners think Stern has given up to much. And gaining more support by the hour.
http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33172640

[Scottley Crue]

The players' stance/strategy has long baffled me. They have to know that the longer this goes, the worse it gets for them. They've had to know this for a long time. And the decert threat isn't scaring the owners, either. All that being said...I really wish the owners would extend some olive branches to the Union to get this thing done. (Let them have the sign & trade for lux tax teams, let the mini-mid term for lux tax teams be available every year--2yrs/$10mil, same yearly salary but less total than regular mid-level. Makes it a bit of a choice.)

Really, if you take away all the firey rhetoric, the sides are soooooo very close. The union seems willing to take the BRI if some of these issues can be resolved in their favor. And if it's just the lux tax stuff, is it worth blowing up a season over? To me, no.

[dav7z]

The players' stance/strategy has long baffled me. They have to know that the longer this goes, the worse it gets for them. They've had to know this for a long time. And the decert threat isn't scaring the owners, either. All that being said...I really wish the owners would extend some olive branches to the Union to get this thing done. (Let them have the sign & trade for lux tax teams, let the mini-mid term for lux tax teams be available every year--2yrs/$10mil, same yearly salary but less total than regular mid-level. Makes it a bit of a choice.)

Really, if you take away all the firey rhetoric, the sides are soooooo very close. The union seems willing to take the BRI if some of these issues can be resolved in their favor. And if it's just the lux tax stuff, is it worth blowing up a season over? To me, no.

I really think the union just pushed things a little more Saturday than they wanted . Trying to look strong. Im all most certain if the owners allow this one last meating and give up any consesion at all the union jumps all over it . I get the feeling they are just trying to save face right now. If by chance this contract comes to a vote the players union will accept it . Hunter and Fisher are trying to just save face. Hunter will be gone no mater what happens.

[ohara831]

Pressure. I am starting to think that if some big name players can press for a vote, this standoff will end. Come on Kobe, stand up and assert some authority. I've always disliked you, but if you can help end this mess, I will become much more of a fan of your talents.

[spectre]

In Letter to Union, Stern Details His Ultimatum (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/sports/basketball/nba-in-letter-to-union-stern-details-his-ultimatum.html?_r=2)

And here we are.

Seriously...what in the hell is so bad about this proposal vs. the one the union has already agreed to? S&T amongst tax paying team? There have been FIVE in 6 years!

The players union and those elite few need to get over themselves else they're going to do the majority of the players great harm now and in the future.

Let 'em vote!

[dav7z]

In Letter to Union, Stern Details His Ultimatum (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/sports/basketball/nba-in-letter-to-union-stern-details-his-ultimatum.html?_r=2)

And here we are.

Seriously...what in the hell is so bad about this proposal vs. the one the union has already agreed to? S&T amongst tax paying team? There have been FIVE in 6 years!

The players union and those elite few need to get over themselves else they're going to do the majority of the players great harm now and in the future.

Let 'em vote!

If they too crazy to accept that . Hell let them take thair lazy asses over seas . Hell blow the whole damn union up . Let them all walk . Im sick of all this player greed . As if 50% of revanew not profit isn't enough. If ever team was making money i would say pay them more. Hell its only about 8 teams making money . The rest is feeling the pain during thease bad times. Hell its people starving in the USA ever day and thease guys are acting as if a few milion isn't shit.

[ohara831]

Looks like the Players are divided on whether to decertify or take the offer. And work the Union and NBA may meet Tuesday. Hopefully they get something worked out this week. Not sure you will see a decertification if there is a strong group who wants to accept the NBA's offer.

[spectre]

Lockout prediction: Deal within 36 hours - Chris Sheridan (http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/08/nba-lockout-prediction/)


NEW YORK — My gut feeling: We will have a settlement of the NBA lockout within 36 hours.

Why?

Because, folks, they are 99 percent of the way there. (You don’t pile all of the kids into the station wagon, tell them you are driving to DisneyWorld and then stop in the outskirts of Orlando and say you are turning around.)

The owners are at 50 percent on the revenue split. The players are at 51 — or ” fifty plus one” as they put it when talks broke off Saturday night, with that extra 1 percent representing $40 million that would be earmarked for improved pensions for both current and retired players.

If David Stern throws them some crumbs — say $20 million for improved benefits, plus a few tweaks to the system changes that players find so objectionable — they are 99.9 percent of the way there. I said all this on the radio yesterday (http://sheridanhoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/11-7-sheridan.mp3), and I feel as strongly about it today as I did then.

Player reps from the 30 NBA teams have a 1 p.m. EST meeting scheduled today in Manhattan, and the smart money says they’ll emerge asking for one more meeting with the owners to try to move to a place just a little more palatable. Stern has nothing to lose by taking the meeting, everything to gain by taking it and sprinkling a few crumbs toward the players.

And if the players emerge from a bargaining sessions saying they are now prepared to put the offer up for a vote, voila! The season will start in the second week of December.
Yes, it’s that easy.

There was always going to be an endgame in this fight, and it has arrived. There was always a secret watch in Stern’s pocket that showed when the true 11th hour would arrive, and it is here. As I said during that radio interview in Detroit: Are the players really going to walk away from $2 billion in guaranteed money of the upcoming season? Hell, no. If they let that money fly out the window, it will be gone forever.

The owners have been ruthless, hardheaded, stubborn and disciplined in this negotiation, and they won it a long time ago. But they still have to get it to the finish line, and that is why there is still has to be a little extra give left in their arsenal after keeping it in reserve for more than four months.

And although there is a core group of 10-14 hardliners that wanted an even better deal, that does not constitute a majority. A majority is 16, and David Stern can get 16 votes if he can coax the players into putting the deal up for a vote.

So today is a big day, and tomorrow is a bigger one. Stern’s deadline is 5 p.m. EST Wednesday. And even if an agreement in principle is reached at 7 p.m., Stern can channel Jimmy Buffett and say it’s 5 o’clock somewhere.
So they’ll get it done.

[Chef]

Lockout prediction: Deal within 36 hours - Chris Sheridan (http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/08/nba-lockout-prediction/)

this doesn't address the disaster of the current proposal in revenue sharing that will bankrupt all of the small market teams.

[spectre]

this doesn't address the disaster of the current proposal in revenue sharing that will bankrupt all of the small market teams.

Because that's between the owners only and they've said they won't even release what they've decided on in regards to revenue sharing until they have a deal with the players.

Last I heard rumored was what amounts to an extra 5 million per team...so as soon as Jordan can figure out how to either make better decisions (defer to Cho) or else crap 15 million extra a year we'll be in business!

[spectre]

DJ Speaks (http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/7204688/nba-players-union-consensus-unlikely-owners-offer-source-says)


"We're all really concerned. This is our livelihood. This is our job," Charlotte point guard D.J. Augustin (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3415/dj-augustin) said Monday after playing a pickup game with other NBA players in Houston. "For ourselves, we want to get back playing. But we're also not going to take just any deal. We're going to stay united, stay strong and just be ready whenever they call us back."Bobcat will help in NBA negotiations (Matt Carroll) (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2011/11/07/2757529/bobcat-will-help-in-nba-negotiations.html)


Carroll said he's consulted with his fellow Bobcats frequently, though there's no clear consensus on what to do next.

[SWedd523]

What I want to know is what happened in 2008?

our first three years saw positive income of 10, 12, and 5 million. Then in 2008 it went downhill to the tune of -5, -15, and -20 million.

Anybody know what changed?

[Scottley Crue]

What I want to know is what happened in 2008?

our first three years saw positive income of 10, 12, and 5 million. Then in 2008 it went downhill to the tune of -5, -15, and -20 million.

Anybody know what changed?

Is that when the full salary cap was available? Or at least used? Just an idea off the top of my head.

[spectre]

What I want to know is what happened in 2008?

our first three years saw positive income of 10, 12, and 5 million. Then in 2008 it went downhill to the tune of -5, -15, and -20 million.

Anybody know what changed?

Are you sure we saw positive income in those 3 years? If so that's pretty darn good as I remember no one showing up those first couple years.

At any rate, remember we were working under a 3 year tier in regards to being able to use the entire salary cap...so 2008 would be the 2nd year we were able to utilize that, right?


On April 29, 2008 the Bobcats reached an agreement to hire Basketball Hall of Famer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_Hall_of_Fame) Larry Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Brown_%28basketball%29) as the third head coach in franchise history.

and the things that came along with him...mainly "win now".

[SWedd523]

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/32/basketball-valuations-11_Charlotte-Bobcats_322435.html



I think player expenses has a big say in it. PEs have gone from $46mil in 2007 to $73mil last year. But I don't understand how it was higher last year (73) than the year before (69) despite having a lower team payroll.

Judging by the numbers Forbes provides, the break even point for Player Expenses (at least for current our current revenue) should be between 51 and 54 million. That number will go up a bit if revenue sharing in more robust, but looking at these numbers, I can really see where they're arguing that the players are overpaid.


Does anyone know of the correlation between Player Expenses and the salary cap payroll? For example, the payroll last year was just over $43 million, yet our player expenses were at $73 million

[dav7z]

[QUOTE=spectre;200379]Are you sure we saw positive income in those 3 years? If so that's pretty darn good as I remember no one showing up those first couple years.

At any rate, remember we were working under a 3 year tier in regards to being able to use the entire salary cap...so 2008 would be the 2nd year we were able to utilize that, right?

Our best attendance was average in 2006 at 16366, It fail big time in 2007, 2008 to a little over 14000. 2009 and 2010 it was in the high 15s
A attendance link for all the teams . Looks like a let the big dogs eat graf.But i don't understand profits 20o7 and 2008.And a 20 milion dollar lose last year??

attendance rccord=
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2006

[ohara831]

Spectre, a couple weeks ago I had heard that the deal would likely net teams anywhere from an additional $5 - $12 mil, and I thought I saw where it would benefit Charlotte to the tune of about $10 mil. Memory may be a bit foggy on that, but for some reason the number $10 mil is in my head. Seems our man Bonnell had something on that.

[dav7z]

Spectre, a couple weeks ago I had heard that the deal would likely net teams anywhere from an additional $5 - $12 mil, and I thought I saw where it would benefit Charlotte to the tune of about $10 mil. Memory may be a bit foggy on that, but for some reason the number $10 mil is in my head. Seems our man Bonnell had something on that.

Ohara i found this artical. Let me know if i got this right.
The old revanew sharing was 60 milion last season . Under the new sharing is 150 milion . A increase of 90 milion
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7147909/nba-lockout-owners-discussing-revenue-sharing-sources-say
you guys thoughts on the artical.

[spectre]

I wonder how that works? Does 150 million get tossed in a pot (which incidentally is the exact same amount that the top 8 teams supposedly made in profit last season per Dav's article) and is divyed up 30 ways? IF that's the total profit for the net "+" teams I think it'd have to be split 30 ways.

That'd be 5 million per team vs 2 million per team (based on the 60 million) IF that's the way it'd be done.

FWIW here's the link to Bonnell's blog on revenue sharing:

http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2011/10/new-revenue-sharing-big-for-bobcats.html

He didn't mention our cut in his article but he may have come back in a post to clarify (I'm not wading thru that mess to find out for sure).

If my math is correct then MJ would have to come up with 17 million more to break even vs the 15 I first thought.

[spectre]

BTW, thanx Dav for the attendence stuff. I had that all wrong.

[SWedd523]

I think it works like this (all numbers are arbitrary):


5 teams go over the salary cap to a tune of $50 million. That $50M is then split up and given to the 25 teams that were below the LT to a tune of $2 million.


By changing (raising) the tax, they're effectively strengthening the amount of revenue sharing.

[dav7z]

I can't see why such low television revanew sharing ?
Lakers just signed a 3 billion dollar TV revanew contract . Or just 2.5 million dollars per game with time warner cable. WOW
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/2/14/1993837/lakers-tv-time-warner-sports-networks

The Celtics yearly Television revanew reported around 40 milion a year
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/7/18/2281497/boston-celtics-tv-deal-comcast-sportsnet-new-england

[spectre]

I think it works like this (all numbers are arbitrary):


5 teams go over the salary cap to a tune of $50 million. That $50M is then split up and given to the 25 teams that were below the LT to a tune of $2 million.


By changing (raising) the tax, they're effectively strengthening the amount of revenue sharing.

That's separate from the actual revenue sharing (I think). What they're talking about is sharing profits.

On that note however...did you catch that under the new agreement being negotiated the tax paying teams will now get to share in that pool of money? How does that make sense?

At any rate...wouldn't you figure the number of tax paying teams would seriously go down to like 1 or 2 if what we're hearing does go into effect? The new proposed CBA is making it to where there isn't a lot of choice...esp. if the teams currently making a profit have all of it taken away to be shared.

[ohara831]

I just want what is best for the Bobcats. That means a higher Revenue Sharing agreement with the big market teams, and a good BRI split. I want MJ to have money to spend on FA and compete with the other teams for the players we need. Some teams have a hugh built in advantage by TV contracts and location. Whatever MJ needs to compete, I want him to have it. If that means a player has to go without buying a new $80,000 sports car every year, I'm fine with that. And all the people crying over the Owners being greedy and not paying the players enough, will you be crying, moaning and groaning when your team is playing in the Playoffs? I don't think so.

[ohara831]

Seems the NBA has 16 teams to accept the current offer by Stern, and 13 against it. They will never get a better offer for the Players to pass. This is as good as it gets for the Players. Wonder if a compromise could be reached on the Length of the CBA? The current talks are about 10 years with a 7 year Opt Out. What if they can do the deal at 7 years with a 5 year Opt Out? It gets them back to playing ball again, and they can take the next 5 years to see how the new system works for both the NBA and the Union? Just an idea.

[ohara831]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33123/hardline-owners-sniffing-victory

Good article. Gives you an idea what the hardliners may be thinking is coming down the pipeline next.

[superb1]

posted comment on wrong thread

[superb1]

This is what one formal player thinks about Jordan position.

http://blogs.charlotte.com/inside_the_nba/2011/11/gminski-no-downside-for-jordan.html

[ohara831]

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/stunning-majority-americans-dont-miss-nba-games-survey-says

This is what I fear that neither side realizes. The damage they are doing to the product that is the NBA is more than they realize.

[spectre]

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/stunning-majority-americans-dont-miss-nba-games-survey-says

This is what I fear that neither side realizes. The damage they are doing to the product that is the NBA is more than they realize.

Eh. 12% of Americans is around 37.5 million people.

Despite threat, NBA players refuse to cave (http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/11/08/despite-threat-nba-players-refuse-to-cave/)


Some other nuggets:

• Restricted free agency has returned as a hot topic late in the game, per two sources close to to talks. The union wants players coming off their rookie deals to be eligible for larger raises and larger qualifying offers — the minimum amount teams must offer to keep the right to match any competing offer. The league has rejected these proposals, though it has indicated flexibility on restricted free agency in general.

• The two sides are still apart on the small but important issue of broadening the salary-matching requirement for trades. Under the old rules, a team over the cap could take back only 125 percent (plus $100,000) of the salary it sent out in a trade, so that the salaries would nearly have to match. The union has proposed bumping that gap all the way to 200 percent for teams below the luxury tax line, while the league has offered to go to 150 percent — with a bright line rule that the total salary difference in any trade cannot exceed $5 million, per a source close to the talks.

Teams in luxury tax territory would face the 125 percent limitation under proposals from both sides.

[Felton for Prez]

On a basketball related note, has anyone noticed that Kevin Durant REALLY likes to play basketball (and flag football). He has been at just about all of these charity games flying around the country just to play the game. If there were actually winners in this lockout, I think he'd be one. I'm very impressed with his sincere love of the game.

[ohara831]

Saw an updated tweet from I think Stein who said that all Stern has the authority to tweak today will be B-list items, nothing on the major issues. Not sure if that will be enough to reach a deal. Time will tell.

[ohara831]

1'significant progress" and "late night expected" are very good words to hear tonight. Getting hopeful again. Just praying my hopes dont get dashed in a few hours.

[Chef]

i think it is funny that people have started piling on jordan. what he and the other small market owners are doing is trying to make this the last lockout by ensuring that all teams can stay financially healthy. without the underlying theme of teams losing money (especially heading into the next ten years which very well could be much much worse economically than the last 3) the labor deal would have been reached months ago.

[ohara831]

Chris Broussard says to temper enthusiasm as there is a ways to go. Dont rain on my parade Chris!

[dav7z]

Sorce on REALGM says it looking very good . Very close on a deal. [If things don't fall apart again]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216458/Optimism_Growing_That_CBA_Deal_Is_Close

[Toocool]

Everyone is praying that the lockout ends tomorrow. This really has dragged on for far too long, I want to watch Walker, Bismack, TTime and Hendo on the floor and watch them develop, not sit here waiting while they argue over millions of dollars that 95% of the world doesn't have.

[bing!]

This seesaw is getting mighty annoying. Expect the talks to break down and another quasi-ultimatum issued followed by a hint of optimism with extended talks and discussion in tow, then a breakdown again... rinse and repeat.

[ohara831]

Henry Abbott at True Hoop on ESPN is saying to expect BRI at 50/50. If all else gets agreed upon, today may be a very good day. I hope.

[ohara831]

Things looking promising for a resolution to this mess! Very happy. Now, just finish it and get it done!

[ziggy]

Henry Abbott at True Hoop on ESPN is saying to expect BRI at 50/50. If all else gets agreed upon, today may be a very good day. I hope.

Let's hope so. I need my hoops.

[CaptainJack1]

It's good that progress is reported being made but still this is all just jibber jabber to me until I read/hear that the lockout is officially over.

So cut a deal and get on with the season while it's still before Thanksgiving.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I am at the point that if talks fail this time I am not going to watch the NBA this season if they even do manage some semblance of a season. I will be too disgusted with the BS and the whole process.

[GOBOBCATS24]

Then there will be a 72 game NBA Season starting on December 15th

[ohara831]

I hope the deal is sufficient to warrant a vote. If so, my guess is it will pass.

[superb1]

I am at the point that if talks fail this time I am not going to watch the NBA this season if they even do manage some semblance of a season. I will be too disgusted with the BS and the whole process.

that is how I feel. I'm ready to throw my energy into other sports. pro bball was always my favorite but i'm ready to make football my first and give college my attention like a few years ago between the charlotte bball absence. i'm getting sick of this whining now on both sides. i'm already saying f$$@# the nba. soon you may see me absent from here too. smh

[ballwhore]

Player decertification papers were received yesterday via fed ex. Three sentences and a line to sign on.

[Toocool]

Hopefully they vote for it, and sign. And fire Hunter and get Fisher to piss off also. I want a season of basketball to watch baby! Missing the good times in game chat and when this board was more active.

[spectre]

Player decertification papers were received yesterday via fed ex. Three sentences and a line to sign on.

How's DJ leaning?

[ballwhore]

Signed and sent

[spectre]

Signed and sent

Guess he's worried he might be one of those 10 players that could get a full MLE from someone like the Lakers.

Oh well. Hope we have a season in spite of his vote.

[ballwhore]

That and a bunch of other stuff. Trust me he is not the only one worrying. However, whatever he does get won't come from Charlotte. The Bobcats will have a veteran top tier point guard this year and DJ will finally be gone hopefully to a contender.

[ohara831]

Signed and sent

Well, I guess if the players vote down the last proposal by the League, then decert is the way it goes. And no season at all. Sad.

PS: Thanks for the info on that ballwhore.

[Scottley Crue]

Thanks for the info, Ballwhore. I know they've sent the papers for the decert petition but would you know how much, if at all, momentum is behind the "disclaimer of interest" option? It's pretty much a nuclear option, but I don't know how far the players are willing to push this. I fully understand fighting for the best deal, but my concern for the players would be that the cost of "winning" wouldn't be worth it.

[ohara831]

ESPN Insider quotes Ken Berger as saying they already have 200 signatures for Decertification. But I am hopeful that those players who talk Decert and may have even signed the Petition will vote for the Agreement when they get their shot next week. And I hope it passes. Because I believe Stern when says that is the very best they will get and it only gets more hardline from this point. And if the Players try the AntiTrust suit and fail, they are royally screwed. Not worth the risk.

[spectre]

ESPN Insider quotes Ken Berger as saying they already have 200 signatures for Decertification. But I am hopeful that those players who talk Decert and may have even signed the Petition will vote for the Agreement when they get their shot next week. And I hope it passes. Because I believe Stern when says that is the very best they will get and it only gets more hardline from this point. And if the Players try the AntiTrust suit and fail, they are royally screwed. Not worth the risk.

What makes you think they'll get their shot to vote?

They're throwing it to the players' reps on Monday and I suspect they'll kill it before it ever gets to all the players just like they did the last one.

I think it's over. These idiot players have no frigging clue what they're doing...they're letting their pride override their brain.

[ohara831]

Spectre, I think that from a PR perspective, they need to let the Players vote. That way, if rejected, it falls on all the Players, and not just the Committee and Reps. I think there has been enough said that the public will want to see the players vote. However, I do see your point where the Player Reps and Committee may in fact try to insulate the rest of the Players by making the decision not to Accept or allow for a vote. Still, my gut tells me there will be a vote Mon or Tues. Hope I'm right.

[spectre]

I hope you're right too, but you heard the spin Fisher et al threw on that one previously.

Even if they do vote tho I'm not optimistic. Every one of these players have their agents blowing smoke up their ass, other idiots like Pierce/Garnett playing the "solidarity" card and the union/lawyers themselves telling the players how they're getting bent over.

All over stipulations that would affect MAYBE 15 players total over the life of the CBA.

I wanna be I wanna be I wanna be like...Gana.

[ohara831]

Tweet by Wojo at Yahoo says that Danny Granger , player rep for Pacers, says early indications are it will be rejected by NBAPA.

As long as they allow it to go to a full player vote, I'd be disappointed but not angry. They will Decertify, file an Antitrust suit, and shoot for treble damages. It likely wont succeed, but they are banking on the mere threat of the action as something to make the Owners come up with a better offer. I dont see it happening.

[spectre]

Sources: Players unlikely to accept deal (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7220959/nba-lockout-players-unlikely-accept-owners-proposal-sources-say)



Once NBA players digest all the details of the owners' new proposal -- including a clause opening the way for more player demotions to the D-League -- it's hard to imagine even those desperate to play would be willing to ratify it, sources who have seen the proposal told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher.

The D-League clause, which had not previously been disclosed, is one of several elements in the owners' proposal to the league's locked-out players that prompted one agent to describe the proposal as "draconian."

The clause would give teams the right to send a player down to the NBA Development League at any time during his first five years and pay him a severely-reduced contract while he's there, a source that has examined the proposal told Bucher.

Any player sent down to the D-League would be paid at a pro-rated scale of $75,000 a season, which is slightly above the current D-League maximum but roughly one-sixth of the NBA minimum, the source said.
Woah...now that's interesting.

[spectre]

ZachLowe_SI Zach Lowe
Hearing d league (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1136839&start=480#) rule may no longer be part of league's official proposal. Def was at some recent point.
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Retweeted by EyeOnBasketball

Maybe Bucher is a little late?

Part of me likes the idea but I can see where that'd cause a stink bigtime.

[SWedd523]

I don't mind it. The good ones won't be sent down, just the ones that suck and don't deserve their rookie deal

[ohara831]

^^^Not so sure I agree with that clause in a proposal. Not a fair proposal to me. That is one that to me I would have thought would have been a "throw away" proposal from the League to simply discard during negotiations.

[ohara831]

That would make for sense to me if it were merely a throw away proposal. Just good negotiation tactic if it was there and then discarded over the past couple bargaining sessions.

[ohara831]

Looks like the D-League rule part of proposal is still in the offer, but it is NOT part of the take it or leave it aspect of the proposal. Like I figured, it is a throw away point. Something the League knows will not be acceptable to the Union, but the League can then agree to discard it and say they are giving something up. Just a negotiation tactic. Really glad, because if it were something they were insisting on, it would not pass. And I think it is a rather draconian measure, so glad it wont be a cause to reject the proposal.

[Sik Infant]

I don't mind it. The good ones won't be sent down, just the ones that suck and don't deserve their rookie deal

Agreed, I don't mind it at all & wish it was around when Ajinca was stinking it up for us.

[spectre]

Yeah I'm reading now it's on the "B" list along with age limit, off season drug testing, etc and isn't part of the "take it or leave it" stuff.

NBA PM: Issues With the Latest Offer (http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-pm-issues-with-the-latest-offer/)


There was a sense that the 30 player representatives would approve a deal from the Owners on Tuesday, but sources told HOOPSWORLD that executive director Billy Hunter systematically went around the room explaining to each representative why that offer would be bad for them personally and bad for their respective teams. And if the 30 player reps remain unsold on the latest deal, there isn’t much of a chance that they’ll turn it over to their constituents for a vote. Interestingly enough, sources have told HOOPSWORLD that most players and agents would be satisfied with the deal that is on the table, but that doesn’t matter unless the player reps approve it for a vote.

~snip~


Player representatives will convene early next week (probably Tuesday) to decide their next move, but don’t expect the lockout to end so quickly. Even if the Players are in favor of this deal as a whole, there is still the chance that the player reps prevent a vote from taking place because they’re more familiar with the details of the offer.

LET THEM VOTE!

[ohara831]

Terrific find! And if they dont allow a vote, this becomes a pulic nightmare for the Union. Right now, the public is split on who is at fault for this. But if this is true, the public will turn on the Union. That is, the public that remains NBA fans.

[Sik Infant]

Yeah I'm reading now it's on the "B" list along with age limit, off season drug testing, etc and isn't part of the "take it or leave it" stuff.

NBA PM: Issues With the Latest Offer (http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-pm-issues-with-the-latest-offer/)



~snip~



LET THEM VOTE!

Great find Spectre!!!

I agree let them vote & lets get this rubbish lockout out of the way.

Also it seems that the player reps are holding the rest of the players union hostage..lol

Something tells me Billy Hunter does not have their best interests at heart.

[Sik Infant]

Terrific find! And if they dont allow a vote, this becomes a pulic nightmare for the Union. Right now, the public is split on who is at fault for this. But if this is true, the public will turn on the Union. That is, the public that remains NBA fans.

Great point ohara, I believe the public is split because of the amount of spin doctoring from Hunter/Agents trying to make the owners bad guys & pointing the finger at owners doing what is necessary for the long-term sustainability of their franchise & trying to make said owners the scapegoats(MJ)

But alas slowly & systematically the players have ruined all said spin doctoring by talking/whining to the media & generally being as dumb as rocks(David West,Jason Terry)

At the end of it all the players will be seen as greedy & rightfully so.

[ohara831]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Players-Association-8217-s-not-so-tough-cho;_ylt=AtQNEx5V8MedNi1bcaSOup28vLYF?urn=nba-wp10526

Kelly Dwyer at Yahoo is even telling the players it is time to accept the deal and play ball. When the press is telling you the game is up here for the Union, then you know the pressure is mounting. The press has mostly been laying blame at the feet of the Owners until now.

[bozzy]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Players-Association-8217-s-not-so-tough-cho;_ylt=AtQNEx5V8MedNi1bcaSOup28vLYF?urn=nba-wp10526

Kelly Dwyer at Yahoo is even telling the players it is time to accept the deal and play ball. When the press is telling you the game is up here for the Union, then you know the pressure is mounting. The press has mostly been laying blame at the feet of the Owners until now.

I don't see that will have any affect on the players though. I just don't think they will accept a deal where the owners made very little concessions. At this point it is an ego thing. They will go back to the owners with some new deal points and the owners have said they will no longer negotiate. I just don't see how there will be a season unless the players have a complete change of heart which seems unlikely.

[ohara831]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216503/Source_Players_Would_Approve_Owners_Latest_Proposa l

In the words of Spectre, " Let them vote" and then let's play ball!

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216504/Stern_Says_Decertification_Would_Void_All_Player_C ontracts

Wait a minute. I may have to rethink things on this Decertification stuff. Might get rid of a lot of bad contracts. Must think this over.

[Scottley Crue]

The thing that flat-out floors me about this is the amount of reports that I read that say the players don't know what the deal entails. It appears to be a ball of confusion; originating from what appears to be equal parts lack of communication on the Union leadership part and, frankly, lack of caring on some players' part. It's only the thing that will shape your career for the next 6 to 10 years, maybe the information should be free-flowing, you know? I absolutely want the players to take this deal. Not because it's a fantastic deal for them, but because I want to see basketball and no matter how they fight, they won't do any better than this. Really...do the players think they can leverage the owners with decert threats? They can't even get their stuff in one sock to even tell their membership about this deal.

Also, this thing may not be as bad as the players feel it is:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216494/NBAs_Revised_Offer_Contains_Concessions_Not_Yet_Ad vertised

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216502/More_Details_Of_NBAs_Revised_Proposal_Emerging

[Sik Infant]

The thing that flat-out floors me about this is the amount of reports that I read that say the players don't know what the deal entails. It appears to be a ball of confusion; originating from what appears to be equal parts lack of communication on the Union leadership part and, frankly, lack of caring on some players' part. It's only the thing that will shape your career for the next 6 to 10 years, maybe the information should be free-flowing, you know? I absolutely want the players to take this deal. Not because it's a fantastic deal for them, but because I want to see basketball and no matter how they fight, they won't do any better than this. Really...do the players think they can leverage the owners with decert threats? They can't even get their stuff in one sock to even tell their membership about this deal.

Also, this thing may not be as bad as the players feel it is:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216494/NBAs_Revised_Offer_Contains_Concessions_Not_Yet_Ad vertised

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216502/More_Details_Of_NBAs_Revised_Proposal_Emerging

Good post & I agree, it isn't going to get any better for the players....In fact I believe it can only get worse from here on out.

Stern has given the players some good offers & if they don't accept it is their own greed getting in the way of common sense, if he offers worse deals from this point onwards he can at least truthfully say he tried to give the players a good deal but they wouldn't accept.

I honestly think decertification is an empty threat, no player wants their contract voided.

[Keetch]

With their new local TV deal, the Lakers yearly revenue will likely be over $250M. At that rate they can likely profit about $150M a season. The Bobcats revenue is more likely around $100M, and they apparently lose $5 to $10M a year.

Lowering the BRI split (to 50/50) and thus the cap numbers will reduce the small market teams ability to sign and keep players as they must still remain under the lower luxury tax threshold to be viable. True though; instead of losing $5M the Bobcats may profit $5M. That is, if anyones still watching them.

Highly profitable big market teams will (still) be unrestrained.

I'm pretty sure that the union either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the purpose behind the Owner's highly restrictive system demands - to restrain player movement and star leverage; thus inhibiting the potential for huge competitive imbalance.

The luxury tax, with or without its loopholes is a highly flawed concept. Owners should either abandon it in favor of real revenue sharing; or just say screw it and deregulate the whole mess (that would be kind of cool; imagine no rookie draft and all incoming players as free agents).

Anyway, it seems to me that the $ return for non-tax teams from tax payers is trivial relative to what would be possible with a real formula for shared revenues.

[Keetch]

The unwieldiness of the NBA's business "model" is the primary reason for this lockout. BRI, MLE, mini-MLE, tax levels, sign and trade, escrow etc...put it all together and you have a confusing mess of loopholes for player agents to salivate over and lawyers to negotiate adnauseum while we all watch college basketball.

[Keetch]

"We can't take 50/50 and a bad system."
- Kevin Durant

No. For 50/50 to work; you need a "bad" system (strong, simple). A good system (complicated with loopholes) will be devastating; even more so at 50/50.

[Sik Infant]

"We can't take 50/50 and a bad system."
- Kevin Durant

No. For 50/50 to work; you need a "bad" system (strong, simple). A good system (complicated with loopholes) will be devastating; even more so at 50/50.

How stupid do you have to be to believe that 50/50 is a bad system??

Players are looking worse by the day.

Stern must be rubbing his hands together in glee.

[bozzy]

Lowering the BRI split (to 50/50) and thus the cap numbers will reduce the small market teams ability to sign and keep players as they must still remain under the lower luxury tax threshold to be viable. True though; instead of losing $5M the Bobcats may profit $5M. That is, if anyones still watching them.


If you aren't going to have a hard cap, you will never have a truly competitive system. Revenue sharing may help small owners financially, but competitively it does absolutely nothing. This is why the NFL works as a competitive system. It appears nothing is really going to change with the NBA though.

[Toocool]

Anyone feel like the agents are influencing the decisions of the players to most likely refuse?
I know agents nowadays are very much looking after their own pockets, and thus have a huge interest in the NBA scheme of things.
I can see the revised proposal rejected due to misinformation by agents and dumbass NBA players just following the scheme of things and voting to decline the proposal instead of taking time to do their own research.

[Keetch]

I wonder. They must be to some extent. Chaos seems to be their M-O.

Still it's hard to let the League off the hook on this. They're facing huge disparities in team revenue and yet are attacking the problem ass-backwards. You can't ultimately restrain the players share by trying to deny earnings in the name of balance so long as these high revenues are happening in some markets.

NBA teams share a little under one billion dollars a year from national media networks. That's about $30M each. The Lakers local media contract will be worth $150M a year starting in 2012. I guess no one wants to ask Jerry Buss if he's willing to share that.

You can bet the agent's and their clients want a piece of it. And crazy as it seems; they deserve it.

This is sort of a classic high-demand artist vs. corporate producer fight; yet complicated by the ultimate need for balance.

Sorry to write so much. I've been obsessing on this and need to find something better to do; like worrying about my own "balance" hrrm

[Scottley Crue]

I wonder. They must be to some extent. Chaos seems to be their M-O.

Still it's hard to let the League off the hook on this. They're facing huge disparities in team revenue and yet are attacking the problem ass-backwards. You can't ultimately restrain the players share by trying to deny earnings in the name of balance so long as these high revenues are happening in some markets.

NBA teams share a little under one billion dollars a year from national media networks. That's about $30M each. The Lakers local media contract will be worth $150M a year starting in 2012. I guess no one wants to ask Jerry Buss if he's willing to share that.

You can bet the agent's and their clients want a piece of it. And crazy as it seems; they deserve it.

This is sort of a classic high-demand artist vs. corporate producer fight; yet complicated by the ultimate need for balance.

Sorry to write so much. I've been obsessing on this and need to find something better to do; like worrying about my own "balance" hrrm

The revenue sharing will come, it's just that they won't finalize what the structure is until this CBA is done. About a month back, it was reported that some teams could receive up to $15 million in shared revenue. So, we'll see. But I agree, they need to share revenue at a rather healthy rate...the Lakers get that TV deal in large part because they're the Lakers, but also because they have 82 games to sell to TV because they have 29 other teams to play. They play a large role in allowing the Lakers to get that money, too. Only fair to share for the well-being of the league.

On a different topic, take a look at this gem from Etan Thomas. While reading it, keep in mind he's the Executive First Vice President of the NBAPA.

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/7223340/etan-thomas-questions-nba-labor-negotiations

That's why this lockout is taking so long...if he's representative of what's sitting across the table from the owners, then I can see why the owners are trying to get as much as they can. It doesn't appear to be too hard. The more the players talk, the more they begin to infuriate me. They often blame this lockout on the owners essentially spending money like drunken sailors, but now that the owners are looking to sober up, the players pitch a tremendous fit. The message that I hear from them is basically "I used to make $30 million on a contract, now I can only $20 million!! That's not fair!!" That message doesn't play anywhere. They really need to be quiet, take an honest, hard look at the deal in front of them and ask one question...given the information we have, can we get a better deal? Then go from there. Hopefully, some cooler heads will be in that room on Monday and they'll realize that they need to take the deal. Otherwise, these future generations they're fighting won't be served near as well as they think.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now. I guess I'm like Keetch with this...I'm obsessing on this too. Time to catch some movies or something. J. Edgar doesn't look too bad, right?...

[Chef]

this is stupid. if i were stern i could do this in a week.

1. sit all the owners down in a room
2. no one leaves until we come to an agreement on revenue sharing. all revenue including team by team tv deals. all teams must have max viewers in markets able to see team on all major and local platforms (ahem bobcats). all tv deals are considered revenue. any money made directly off of team or nba is considered revenue and must be shared. let's come to an agreement on sharing numbers.
3. go to players as a unified front.
4. agreement will be reached based on 1. more overall revenue now being talked about 2. only two interested parties at the table.

now play basketball.

[Keetch]

Good link Scot. In a very odd way (Occupy Wall Street! Seriously?!) he makes a point that players deserve a greater share of the leagues high "revenues.". Notice that word sneaking in there.

His way of saying it though isn't going to win the players side any fans.

Neither side likes the proposal but a majority of Owners are willing to accept it, because of large profits for the bigs and a little profit and balance for the smalls.

Maybe decertification is necessary to change it up. It's all buggers.

[Keetch]

Chef: I totally agree.

[Keetch]

Forcing the players to accept terms based on the revenues of the lowest common denominator (like the Bobcats) while ignoring the large $ available from the other markets is not fair. The players shouldn't be the ones solely "sacrificing" in the name of competitive balance in this fight. Thats the Owners problem. That's ultimately why I'm on the players side in this. Go figure.

I just wish that someone would explain the players side more fully for everyone to understand, rather than fill the void with rhetoric, hyperbole and yeah Occupy Wall Street references.

[Chef]

I just wish that someone would explain the players side more fully for everyone to understand, rather than fill the void with rhetoric, hyperbole and yeah Occupy Wall Street references.

especially when all anybody really cares about OWS is that they are shitting on cop cars, full of reports of STD's, sexual assaults, racial bigotry, etc. but the underlying themes are the same. these teams are gov't sponsored (tax payer provided funds for multi billion dollar arenas every ten years) while the owners get the profits but the taxpayers are stuck with overpriced seats and underused arenas with a gross overstatement on local economic impact. meanwhile, the big time owners are sitting at the negotiating table with cards up their sleeves (tv deals) and still pressing for the majority of the concessions coming from the players.

[Scottley Crue]

I believe Marc Stein was the first I saw suggest this, but here's what's most likely to come from Monday's meeting. The Union will make some revisions to the NBA's offer, have the reps vote on it, and then present it back to the NBA. That and float the threat of disclaimer of interest to put pressure on the deal. Really, they're just playing hot potato with this deal...neither side wants to be the one to say "No" because they'll be the side that's widely blamed for the chaos and/or lost season that ensues. Maybe this is a good thing that can drive the sides toward an end to this insanity.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216516/Union_Will_Propose_Amendments_To_NBA_Proposal_Then _Submit_To_Player_Reps_For_Vote

[ohara831]

http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/13/lockout-update-misinformation-rules/

NBA trying to get the info out about what is good in the proposal for the Players before they get the BS fed to them by Hunter. Hope they see the deal is not as bad as advertised, and should be accepted.

[ohara831]

So word is the Union will make a counter offer by making amendments to the NBA offer, then voting on it. My thoughts are that if the changes are very minor and this is merely for the Union to say they got the last word in, then it might work. My fear is that a change or two is substantial, and that it will doom our last best chance at seeing NBA this season.

[TheBeagle]

Forcing the players to accept terms based on the revenues of the lowest common denominator (like the Bobcats) while ignoring the large $ available from the other markets is not fair. The players shouldn't be the ones solely "sacrificing" in the name of competitive balance in this fight. Thats the Owners problem. That's ultimately why I'm on the players side in this. Go figure.

I just wish that someone would explain the players side more fully for everyone to understand, rather than fill the void with rhetoric, hyperbole and yeah Occupy Wall Street references. Agreed in total. The players really are getting shat on. Of course salary issues need to be adjusted and player's BRI has to come down from 57 but, like Keetch says, this is an owners/market problem and it's hard for me to see the player's, the guys that wear our teams' jerseys, being the fallguys here.

[SWedd523]

Agreed in total. The players really are getting shat on. Of course salary issues need to be adjusted and player's BRI has to come down from 57 but, like Keetch says, this is an owners/market problem and it's hard for me to see the player's, the guys that wear our teams' jerseys, being the fallguys here.

A lot of it has to do with the way they're dealing with the negotiations. All of these players complaining on twitter, making claim of "bad faith" bargaining, and so forth. They have the most favorable conditions of any sport, and yet they're acting like the world is going to end because the owners want 50%.



As for the revenue sharing debate, let's not forget that despite little to no media coverage, the owners have been split since the very beginning. The small market teams have been fighting for more extensive revenue sharing but they just don't have the leverage to make it happen at this point. That's why they've tried to impose more stringent system aspects (like a harsher LT) as a backwards way to increase sharing.

[Dcarnys]

I love how everyone is seriously demonizing Jordan. In 98 he was looking out for his interest and this time hes doing the same thing. Jordan is an OWNER, NOT A PLAYER! He wants his team to be competitive, who can blame him.

[Icky Thump]

All of this is very sad and scary IMO. Be careful of what you wish for and be wary of who's side you're on. I've said far back that I could see the team getting contracted and with all the things being measured and considered its still a scary thing, again IMO. The league (players and owners) are heavily influenced by the big $$$ makers and they could care less (as we've heard by the players comments and owners like Miami's) whether we remain in the league. What happens during these negotiations will have a clear impact on that situation going forward.

[Toocool]

Feeling that the players are more and more stupid. A lot of them voicing approval over offered deal, re-negotiated to be even better and suddenly a huge hate fest+mis-information campaign is on.
Durant saying he'll reject the proposal, even without reading it. I like Durant and his game, but he just made himself look like a real dumbass with that statement.

[Keetch]

This escrow thing assures the owners don't pay over 50% BRI. So if 5 teams spend a combined $100M over the Luxury Tax limit do they cause the excess?

Not if those teams are paying back dollar for dollar above the tax cap value. Huzzah!

So somebody pays oh I don't know let's say Gilbert Arenas literally a ton of cash, meaning Gilbert has now single-handedly caused the excess. Gilbert's boss feels genuine remorse tho and pays back the overage to the league.

If only life worked that way. #OWS

Huh? LOL

[Keetch]

So if a big name player demands a max. contract from the Lakers; they tell him how much they'd love to make money rain all over them, but just morally can't because it might cause BRI excess for the league; which is no way cool because of you know the Bobcats trying to have fun too. You know it just ain't right.

Yep; that's what I'd tell'im.

[ohara831]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216522/Stern_Losing_Owner_Support_For_50_50_Deal

I dont think the NBA will be crying too much over the current proposal. And it seems the Union is getting the point that if they make any changes to the proposal and then vote on it, it likely wont be agreeable to the NBA. So lets just let the players vote and this thing will be done. I think.

[ohara831]

Wojo put up a tweet from Chris Duhon that the Magic will accept the offer. Hopefully this snowballs and gets a final favorable vote.

[Chef]

could someone put a summarized post of the deal in their words up? too much crap out there to actually wade through.

[SWedd523]

On the misinformation the players have: http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/13/lockout-update-misinformation-rules/

Actual proposal: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba%20proposal%2011-11-2011.pdf

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C4zaisIRxQ

[spectre]

Be nice to hear about our guys. Other than DJ signing the de-cert letter I have no idea which way any of them are leaning.

Anyone besides me find it somewhat ironic that MC (and his fat unwarranted contract) is our rep?

[Chef]

thanks. this proposal does absolutely nothing to address the current state of the league. the biggest problem facing the league are small market teams without owners with deep pockets can't compete. this proposal also does nothing to address the owners from signing players like channing frye to 7+mil per year or tyrus thomas to a 45 million dollar deal.

if the stern was serious about fixing the league and system he would address revenue sharing first. or, the league should require a minimum wealth level of the majority owner. basically say that unless you have personal access to over 2 billion dollars and have a minimum of $300 million of personal money to put up for a team, you can't be an owner.

[bozzy]

if the stern was serious about fixing the league and system he would address revenue sharing first. or, the league should require a minimum wealth level of the majority owner. basically say that unless you have personal access to over 2 billion dollars and have a minimum of $300 million of personal money to put up for a team, you can't be an owner.

While that would be nice, the issue is the hard cap. No matter what system you have, owners will always have varying degrees of wealth and willingness to spend money. But the only way to level the playing field is to do like the NFL and force owners to spend a minimum and not have loopholes over the cap.

[ohara831]

Be nice to hear about our guys. Other than DJ signing the de-cert letter I have no idea which way any of them are leaning.

Anyone besides me find it somewhat ironic that MC (and his fat unwarranted contract) is our rep?

lol! All the Bobdats will be against the offer but for he and Diop. And Matt will vote for it so his and Diop's contracts are not voided. If the Magic and Bobcats come out publicly for the offer, then hopefully other teams will start to come forward and we can have a tidal wave of approval coming in.

[ohara831]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216526/Stern_Says_Absolutely_No_More_Negotiations_On_Revi sed_Proposal

Time to poop or get off the pot. Let them vote.

[May4prez]

Well, there went the season.

[ohara831]

Completely idiotic. Hunter is a fool.

[spectre]

...and they did this without letting all the players vote.

I think those that wanted to vote should go kick Billy Hunter's ass.

[ohara831]

But if all contracts are trashed as Stern says, think MJ is happy to redo the Contract for Diop, Matt and whomever else. Dont think Diop is is looking at that kind of money ever again.

Really hope MJ hoarded away his money so the Bobcats survive if this goes on and eliminates not only this season but next as well. Stern is saying "years of litigation", and that does not sound too good.

[CaptainJack1]

Headline:


NBA players say no to deal, season could be over

Fuck.

[bozzy]

Yeah, now that the union is decertifying, I don't see how there's any chance of a season.

[Chef]

so what the hell are we supposed to do now? my wife and I have an agreement that i can fake interest in our conversations during the nba season. i can't possibly be expected to pay attention to what lisa from accounting thinks is about to happen at the next staff meeting all year, right?

[SWedd523]

Potentially disastrous for our draft hopes...

[spectre]

KembaWalker Kemba walker
No money. Ok. I grew up with no money. There's nothin new!

I don't think it's a guarantee that contracts can be voided. It makes sense to me but there seems to be a debate about it.

Fuck me sideways.

BTW...did you guys hear who's going to be leading the charge for the players in a newly formed players' trade commision (or something like that)? The one and only Billy Hunter! I hear he needed a job...and he did so bloody well in his last position it was a no brainer!

[Chef]

I don't think it's a guarantee that contracts can be voided. It makes sense to me but there seems to be a debate about it.

Fuck me sideways.

BTW...did you guys hear who's going to be leading the charge for the players in a newly formed players' trade commision (or something like that)? The one and only Billy Hunter! I hear he needed a job...and he did so bloody well in his last position it was a no brainer!

remember when negotiators actually got shit negotiated

[bozzy]

I don't think it's a guarantee that contracts can be voided. It makes sense to me but there seems to be a debate about it.


I don't see it happening. It didn't happen in the NFL. Plus, the headache that this would cause to owners would be astronomical. At the end of the day, I think it was just a threat.

[murphman]

If a new CBA is done by next summer, here is a list of some of the potential UFA's

Dwight Howard *
Chris Paul *
Derrick Rose
Kevin Love
Brook Lopez
Steve Nash
Tim Duncan
Nicolas Batum
Jamal Crawford
Kevin Garnett
Gerald Wallace *
Russell Westbrook
Chauncey Billups
Nene
Jason Terry
Antawn Jamison
Kirk Hinrich
Ray Allen
Jeff Green
Tayshaun Prince
Roy Hibbert
Chris Kaman
O.J. Mayo
Marc Gasol
JaVale McGee
Shane Battier
Michael Beasley
Jason Kidd
Tyson Chandler
Caron Butler
Andre Miller
Danilo Gallinari
D.J. Augustin
David West
Elton Brand *
Vince Carter
Grant Hill
Raymond Felton
Marcus Camby
Greg Oden
Samuel Dalembert
Antonio McDyess


* Would have to opt out of their final year which is highly likely.

[ohara831]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33289/union-makes-big-move-without-polling-members

True Hoop with some insight. What jackasses these Union attorneys turned out to be.