Who side are you on?

[superb1]

Judging from what is going on from the lockout, and hearing both sides, who side do you take? I'm up in the air but slightly leaning towards the owners. I'm hating these spoiled players. Owners have to make money to run a business and invest alot in doing so, but with players like Dwade stating he can make 50 mil if there was no cap irks me a little.

[SWedd523]

Both sides are a bunch of whiney assholes.

[ND22]

If 22 or 23 of the 30 teams are losing money, I have to side with the owners. The big thing is there needs to be revenue sharing, because lets be honest, we need it so teams like ours can profit. Plus, the players complain they won't make as much money (and I'm referring to the superstars mind you), yet how much more do they make through endorsements? If players are complaining about making 40 million instead of 50, I have no sympathy for them.

[Dcarnys]

Both sides are rather annoying but I'm definitively siding with the owners. The owners actually want more parity in the league. The players are just looking for a payday, thats it. NBA salaries are inflated enough as it is now.

[Scottley Crue]

I find both sides rather annoying too. They've been negotiating how long and very little progress has been made? I'm sure the things both sides find untenable are out in the open. So someone needs to step up and make a move toward the other side, if nothing else, to prove to that it's possible.

I'd like to see the owners forget this notion of salary rollbacks and offer the players at least 50% of the BRI (I hear the players have offered 52%, which would seem doable, but I'm not an NBA owner). That just seems basic to me...why in the world would the players take less than 50% and reduce the salary they've signed a contract for? On the other side, I'd like to see the players lose the notion that revisions/eliminations of exceptions or a revised luxury tax is the same as a hard cap. Less people getting crazy deals does not equal an actual hard cap. They'll tell the owners that they shouldn't sign them to these deals (mid-level type deals) when these talks come up, but seem to forget that they fight like crazy to make sure that these deals exist. How quickly would the players scream collusion if the mid-level existed but hardly anyone was getting it?

Hopefully there will be enough pressure in the room tomorrow for both sides to meet in the middle. I would think between starting the season on time, the decertification threat and the NLRB case that could put a lot of this in a court's hands, you'd think that would be motivation enough for both sides to get it done tomorrow.

[SWedd523]

Hey superb, I added a poll. Hope you don't mind!

[dnbman]

I'm siding with the players here, just because I hate that they are often called overpaid cry babies who play a game for a living while they provide billions of dollars of money to all sorts of people who profit off the game. However, there are a lot of things that the owners want that I can get behind. A hard cap would definitely be helpful. Some kind of buy-out for guys who grossly under-perform would also be good.

[superb1]

Hey superb, I added a poll. Hope you don't mind!
np, thanks. i should have done that

[ammofan]

Lets just play basketball.

[Toocool]

I'm with the owners. When such a large majority of them are loosing money, the system is obviously flawed.

That being said, hope this lockout ends soon, getting rather agitated with how close it's gonna come to regular season.

[Chef]

the owners all the way. they assume all the risk. however, they don't do themselves any favors when they overpay for franchises in flush economic years then complain about losses after giving players like channing frye and darko 30+ million dollar deals.

[superb1]

I'm with the owners. When such a large majority of them are loosing money, the system is obviously flawed.

That being said, hope this lockout ends soon, getting rather agitated with how close it's gonna come to regular season.

I'm wondering in the NFL, whether the amount of injuries could be due to a rush traaining camp and preseason. Players not able to get with trainers for proper conditioning. Hate for that to be the case for NBA players (Charlotte mainly)

[adam187]

I gotta go against the grain and go with the players for the most part here. Here's why I feel this way:

1. No one made the owners buy a team. They knew the facts going in and they still chose to do it. And if they want out, there are several potential buyers just waiting for the chance to get in.
2. Players often get maligned for being paid so well, but I don't know any other profession where the top 1% don't make similar compensation. And the players do it in a profession that provides plenty of other jobs and a huge amount of entertainment for people across the globe. Hard to find other millionaires giving so much back, in my opinion.
3. The league has been very shady about the losses. The 300 million number gets thrown around, but when pressed the league won't disclose it's financial information in much detail.
4. Similar to the first point, the owners were the ones handing out these contracts. Are you really going to get on the players' cases for taking the money? We would all take as much as we could get.
5. If the system is broken, and it certainly is flawed, why does David Stern still have his job? And why is he being allowed to negotiate this new deal if he helped mess up the last one so badly? There's a reason Donald Sterling hasn't sold the Clippers and I feel like the losses are being overstated.
6. Owners reap all sorts of benefits from owning an NBA team. Some of them also own the arenas or have deals with them that provide plenty of extra money from concerts and events. Not to mention most of these arenas were funded by tax payers (something you all are probably very aware of) and the owners get all sorts of other tax breaks and incentives as well. And finally, owning an NBA team provides owners with a public persona that helps them out in their other business ventures. Not only can they wine and dine clients and business partners at games and practices, their name becomes synonymous with the team, rather than, let's say any business dealings that might make them look less friendly.
7. Supposedly the players have already made significant concessions and yet the owners haven't budged much at all. Lame.

But in the end, none of this shit matters to me. Everybody's gonna get paid. I don't care how much anyone makes, I just want to see some fucking basketball. So if the owners come out very much on top in this deal, I don't care, as long as the games start getting played.

[spectre]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7055592/agents-letter-raises-fair-questions


How does an industry increase its revenue, in one of the country's worst economic periods in 80 years, and suggest it is failing? Why would multiple businessmen, smart enough to make themselves into millionaires and billionaires, fight for the chance to join that industry by buying a franchise?

And how would the top dog of that industry, commissioner Stern, not only still have his job but be in charge of negotiating the next agreement?

And why would squeezing the players, who are not the ones mishandling all that growth, assure that those who are won't find another way to screw up, if indeed that is actually happening?

[ohara831]

I'm pissed with both sides. Can't help it, being that we are likely going to start losing regular season games come this Monday. But I think the thing that really angers me is the damn agents. That letter they sent out likely killed any real chance of having a full season. The final "semi-proposal" the NBA laid out was not bad. An even 50-50 split on the BRI, no roll back of existing contracts, no hard cap, 10 yr deal where Players had a right to opt out after 7. I know it was not the best for the NBA or the Players, but it seems like that would have passed on the NBA side. And often in negotiations, things get settled when neither side is real happy, but they can live with the result. But when the players said no, well, I pretty much cannot help but feel the season will be lost now. No future talks set. So either the players cave in or we dont see Kemba and Biyombo this season. Greedy SOB's all around process, and they are going to take away the game. Honestly, I hope they all go broke now. Then they will realize what a great thing they all had and just crapped all over.

[Bismack BROyombo]

110% on the owners side

[superb1]

I gotta go against the grain and go with the players for the most part here. Here's why I feel this way:

1. No one made the owners buy a team. They knew the facts going in and they still chose to do it. And if they want out, there are several potential buyers just waiting for the chance to get in.
2. Players often get maligned for being paid so well, but I don't know any other profession where the top 1% don't make similar compensation. And the players do it in a profession that provides plenty of other jobs and a huge amount of entertainment for people across the globe. Hard to find other millionaires giving so much back, in my opinion.
3. The league has been very shady about the losses. The 300 million number gets thrown around, but when pressed the league won't disclose it's financial information in much detail.
4. Similar to the first point, the owners were the ones handing out these contracts. Are you really going to get on the players' cases for taking the money? We would all take as much as we could get.
5. If the system is broken, and it certainly is flawed, why does David Stern still have his job? And why is he being allowed to negotiate this new deal if he helped mess up the last one so badly? There's a reason Donald Sterling hasn't sold the Clippers and I feel like the losses are being overstated.
6. Owners reap all sorts of benefits from owning an NBA team. Some of them also own the arenas or have deals with them that provide plenty of extra money from concerts and events. Not to mention most of these arenas were funded by tax payers (something you all are probably very aware of) and the owners get all sorts of other tax breaks and incentives as well. And finally, owning an NBA team provides owners with a public persona that helps them out in their other business ventures. Not only can they wine and dine clients and business partners at games and practices, their name becomes synonymous with the team, rather than, let's say any business dealings that might make them look less friendly.
7. Supposedly the players have already made significant concessions and yet the owners haven't budged much at all. Lame.

But in the end, none of this shit matters to me. Everybody's gonna get paid. I don't care how much anyone makes, I just want to see some fucking basketball. So if the owners come out very much on top in this deal, I don't care, as long as the games start getting played.

I understand and agree with you, that's is why I was a little torn between the both. Owners of any industry know the risk in starting a business, but unlike most businesses NBA owners depend more on their workers to make a profit. It is not like they can actual lay them off, fire them and not feel the effects like your neighborhood McD's. Even in the NFL, you can replace a player more easily than the NBA.

You made some great points, I do feel like the owners like other CEOs hide the their financials, some what that is natural but I not saying it is right. But I still got to go with the owners, it's a business and their got to make money. Even though I'm not a proponent of big business. But I feel players are well compensated and it is the owners fault in doing so.

[superb1]

I'm pissed with both sides. Can't help it, being that we are likely going to start losing regular season games come this Monday. But I think the thing that really angers me is the damn agents. That letter they sent out likely killed any real chance of having a full season. The final "semi-proposal" the NBA laid out was not bad. An even 50-50 split on the BRI, no roll back of existing contracts, no hard cap, 10 yr deal where Players had a right to opt out after 7. I know it was not the best for the NBA or the Players, but it seems like that would have passed on the NBA side. And often in negotiations, things get settled when neither side is real happy, but they can live with the result. But when the players said no, well, I pretty much cannot help but feel the season will be lost now. No future talks set. So either the players cave in or we dont see Kemba and Biyombo this season. Greedy SOB's all around process, and they are going to take away the game. Honestly, I hope they all go broke now. Then they will realize what a great thing they all had and just crapped all over.

I agree.....

[spectre]

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/si/nba/NBPAletter.pdf

This pushed me more towards the owners.

50/50 split, same soft cap and keep existing contracts.

Sad thing is the guys the union officials are talking to most are the "stars". They're not going to be the ones getting hurt by this...more the smaller fish.

By rejecting this I think more and more are going to start putting blame on the players for lost games...and those smaller fish are going to be right with the majority I think.

[spectre]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32308/three-ways-nba-talks-could-end


And here's another wrinkle: Two sources in the room agree that the particular players present Tuesday (the list includes Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Theo Ratliff, Maurice Evans, Matt Bonner, Roger Mason Jr., etc.) were particularly strident, more strident than the average player.

Garnett, in particular, has been mentioned as among the uncompromising.

And these are the players who did not play ball with the NBA's offer.

In other words, maybe if the rank-and-file of the players' union were to fully understand the NBA's best offer, the mood would shift.

[superb1]

Now I'm getting more pissed with the players and really thinking about it is the owners fault. If you think about it, they gave out the contracts with dollar signs in their eyes. If I can give this player xxx amount of dollars then I can make xxx times that. So the players got greedier, but they must be seeing that the owners are making a hell of a lot of money off of them. But to think of it in laymen terms, even if I'm the best burger flipper at abc restaurant, and if people come from miles around to see me flip burgers, I should still know my limits. People may buy burgers and pack the place, I get a whopping .50 raise, still I should still not expect a half percentage of that and any other revenue, my own parking space and 2 hr breaks. Get the picture.

I propose the fans make our voice heard too, really the third party in this needs to be heard. Even in these economic times, we still spend money on any sports related items which they profit on. Really I don't care if they have a season. I wanted to see the rookies play and develop, but I can care less about Kobe and Lebron and rest. I feel bad only for any Bobcats players.

[ohara831]

I wish I could say I had good feelings about this matter being resolved soon, but I dont. Unless we see something like what started to happen in the NFL when a separate group of players starts getting vocal about getting the matter settled. Spectre is right. The players who have already benefited from the big time contracts can afford to go without a check for several months, while the avg player probably cannot. I'd be very interested to see what would happen if the Union had a full player vote on the 50-50 proposal by the Owners.

[dunnlx]

Neither side, well maybe the owners since teams are losing money, but I despise both sides equally.

[dnbman]

People may buy burgers and pack the place, I get a whopping .50 raise, still I should still not expect a half percentage of that and any other revenue, my own parking space and 2 hr breaks. Get the picture.

Why not? If your are what is generating the business, why not ask for what you believe to be a fair share of the profit?

The sole reason the NBA exists is to profit off the talents of basketball players. It's the same reason record labels exist. It's the same reason movie studios exist. People profit off of the above average talents of others. They take a financial risk in order to profit off talent.

I think the players do have the right to fight for everything they can get. However, the negotiations could easily back-fire and the players have to be ready to live with that.

I just can't fault the players. If I knew that people were getting rich off of my face, my sweat, and my exceptional talent, I'd want my piece.

[Scottley Crue]

http://ht.cdn.turner.com/si/nba/NBPAletter.pdf

This pushed me more towards the owners.

50/50 split, same soft cap and keep existing contracts.

Sad thing is the guys the union officials are talking to most are the "stars". They're not going to be the ones getting hurt by this...more the smaller fish.

By rejecting this I think more and more are going to start putting blame on the players for lost games...and those smaller fish are going to be right with the majority I think.

Yeah, it's hard to see how a 50/50 split is not fair. If it's a partnership, then 50/50 is as fair as it gets. And I do think Stern put this out there for the public as well as the rank and file player. For all the mess that's been going on, they're actually very close on the money. Ken Berger has this article that details a lot of it.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15687299/with-nearly-all-of-8-billion-gap-closed-season-can-be-saved

[Chef]

I just can't fault the players. If I knew that people were getting rich off of my face, my sweat, and my exceptional talent, I'd want my piece.

if you have a job, they are. if the players really wanted to assume all the risk, no one is stopping them from starting their own league. the fact of the matter is 99.9% of the players are too financially dumb to get a league going. however, at least 40% of the owners are too dumb to successfully run an nba franchise. it is funny that the ultra-rich owners are so good in business yet so bad at owning a team. it is because they run their business's with their brains and accounting sheets and their teams with their emotions.

[davcbow]

I think the fans should boycott the season if it ever starts to show all the greedy bastards who really pays the bills... No fans no money (except endorsements)... I sick of it all from the owners to the players to the athletic apparel companies... Its all bullshit!

[dav7z]

Now I'm getting more pissed with the players and really thinking about it is the owners fault. If you think about it, they gave out the contracts with dollar signs in their eyes. If I can give this player xxx amount of dollars then I can make xxx times that. So the players got greedier, but they must be seeing that the owners are making a hell of a lot of money off of them. But to think of it in laymen terms, even if I'm the best burger flipper at abc restaurant, and if people come from miles around to see me flip burgers, I should still know my limits. People may buy burgers and pack the place, I get a whopping .50 raise, still I should still not expect a half percentage of that and any other revenue, my own parking space and 2 hr breaks. Get the picture.

I propose the fans make our voice heard too, really the third party in this needs to be heard. Even in these economic times, we still spend money on any sports related items which they profit on. Really I don't care if they have a season. I wanted to see the rookies play and develop, but I can care less about Kobe and Lebron and rest. I feel bad only for any Bobcats players.
Small market teams offer bad contracts to be competive. Hopeing the player signed puts butts in the seats . But realize quickly they can't afford the new House ,car [player] . The 50% split seems really fair . I don't even care if its 57% In ordor for the small market teams to make money it has to be parity in the league. A hard cap with out loop holes is needed much more than a%. Revanew sharing is all so a must betwen the teams. Just think how much money Bobcats lose in just nationaly televised games .
I side with the owners but but both sides has have to make consessions so all 30 teams make money. Pairity and hard cap being the key not a %

[dav7z]

I think the fans should boycott the season if it ever starts to show all the greedy bastards who really pays the bills... No fans no money (except endorsements)... I sick of it all from the owners to the players to the athletic apparel companies... Its all bullshit! I didn't renew my season seats . I knew this shit was coming.

[spectre]

With 'deadline' looming, NBA players union must take action - Sam Amick (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/sam_amick/10/06/amick.time.for.vote/index.html)


With Monday so clearly defined as the day by which a deal must be agreed on for the entire season to be saved, the time has come for union officials to let all of the players be heard. Not just defiant Dwyane Wade (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/10/1/2461525/nba-lockout-2011-power-rankings-dwyane-wade-david-stern) or collective bargaining "expert" LeBron James (http://www.iamagm.com/news/2011/10/01/lebron.dwade.and.cpaul.demanding.players.dont.go.b elow.53.percent.bri.0) or the people's champ Kevin Garnett (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_lockout_kevin_garnett_100611). And not just the role players, who do such yeoman's work representing their peers, from Fisher to NBPA vice presidents Maurice Evans, Roger Mason and the like.

There should be a democratic element to this process, and the election shouldn't be delayed because they might fear the results. Especially when so much is about to be sacrificed.What he said.

[superb1]

Come to think about it, if only a few players are the ones involved in the meeting and speaking up, it seems that these are the players from the markets who may not be losing money. If this is the case, then the role players and small markets teams and owners who are losing money need to be the ones make noise. The are the ones suffering and they are allowing the big boys to choose for them. The DWades,Carmelos and Lebrons see the their owners making this money and not getting a share. But I really don't see the Hendos, TTs and DJ Augustins really pressing cuz they really see MJ making money here.

[spectre]

The player salaries lost to a lockout - Larry Coon (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/32334/the-player-salaries-lost-to-a-lockout)

Money quote:


The players are holding out for an additional $120 million in 2011-12, but holding out costs them $82.4 million per week. They would lose everything they stand to gain this season in less than two weeks. On Monday the league is expected to announce the cancellation of the first two weeks of the season, which will cost the players $164.8 million.

Over a six year agreement, the players would burn through the $796 million (the 3% point difference between the 2 sides - spec) in a little under 10 weeks. If they continue to hold out for 53 percent, and the owners hold firm at 50 percent, the players will reach the break-even point around December 16th. If the sides settle for 53 percent past that date, then the players would have been better off by taking the owners’ offer of 50 percent before games were cancelled.

No matter whose side you're on...the players become STUPID if they let this drag past December 16th.

Hunter knows this just like Coon does. If he doesn't get a deal done by that date a bunch of players should pay him a very late night visit.

[captaincrunk]

If 22 or 23 of the 30 teams are losing money, I have to side with the owners. The big thing is there needs to be revenue sharing, because lets be honest, we need it so teams like ours can profit. Plus, the players complain they won't make as much money (and I'm referring to the superstars mind you), yet how much more do they make through endorsements? If players are complaining about making 40 million instead of 50, I have no sympathy for them.
The owners are complaining about several billion dollars, instead of a slightly higher figure that is also several billion dollars.

[ohara831]

Hoping this session today gets it done. If the owners can stomach taking 49% to the players 51%, and the players give the owners back something which allows the owners to accept the compromise, both sides can declare victory. The players get the slight majority, but the owners got back something else that makes them happy. If it doesn't happen before the season officially loses some regular season games to cancellation, then I fear the whole season is lost. :-(

[davcbow]

It would serve the truly greedy bastards right... I'm fed up with millionaires crying for more money from billionaires when the economy sucks as bad as it does, almost 10% unemployment and these cry babies want more and more money... if it weren't for the owners having a team and taking all the risks concerning money issues these guys wouldn't even have a job and would be out there in the unemployment line with the rest of us... I would love to see the season played but if the players cant come to an agreement they can always take a spot in the unemployment line with the rest of us unemployed folks... :D

[Scottley Crue]

I haven't really taken a side (other than the "let's play ball" side), but I will say I've had waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more than my fair share of players tweeting LET US PLAY today. I fully understand my job and job skills are not on equal footing with NBA players' and I fully understand this issue is complicated. But they need to be quiet right now. This is not a good look for them at all. They make more money in a season than a lot of people will in a lifetime. Trying to play the public against the owners as if the public and players are on equal footing? What planet are they on? Just a bad PR move in my mind.

Also, if they just want to play, make a deal. There's no anchor holding them down. Say yes to a deal and it'll be amazing how quick there will be games.

[Keetch]

It doesn't seem that the two parties are far enough apart to really tell who's side to be on. I'm not on either side.

Though I must admit a small hope that the whole thing collapses and the players have to resort to barnstorming in high school and juco gyms for a few years. CP3, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Durant and others played at WSSU a little while back. Tix were $45. Too bad they sold too many of them oops :P

My main concern and hope is more that the Owners work out a revenue sharing deal that helps good small-market Owners compete on a level platform as big-market Owners. Bad Owners will screw up no matter what market their in (Clippers, Knicks).

I'm not in favor of a hard cap in regards to resigning your own players.

The Luxury Tax fails small market teams that have to dump salaries to stay below it. Small market teams have to stay below it; big market teams don't seem to care. No tax; just share.

I'd also like to see a limit on what any one team can spend on free agent players in one season. No more LeBron's AND Bosh's signing with one team.

[spectre]

Good to see you Keetch...hope you're doing well.

Kind of a side note to the topic, but say there is no season (I wasn't even considering that til here recently); does Boris just "disappear" from the roster? I think he would. What happens to RFA Dante Cunningham? Is he suddenly a UFA and can be signed by anyone? What about a QO for DJ?

I'd assume they'd make some provisions for these situations, but say they didn't...

[SWedd523]

Always nice to hear from you Keetch.


As for the UFAs, I'd imagine the "home team" would get first dibs on those players. So we'd get a day, a week, whatever to sign them to contracts first... I don't know why we'd want to resign Boris, but hey

[Keetch]

Hey guys thanks for the hellos; it's much appreciated. Spectre as for your contract question, I suppose it depends on the contact wording. Since they're all union players though I guess the final resolution for limbo contracts could be part of the final agreement.

Of course, if they decertify then all hell could break loose. That'd be wild.

That's not going to happen though and I'd be shocked if this isn't worked out by New Years at the latest.

[Keetch]

Oops "contract"

One issue I side with the Owners on is contract length. Owners want 3 to 4 years and/or some sort of buyout plan. Players insist it stay at 4 to 5; which just seems crazy long to me.

Hell how about max. 2?

[Scottley Crue]

Hey guys thanks for the hellos; it's much appreciated. Spectre as for your contract question, I suppose it depends on the contact wording. Since they're all union players though I guess the final resolution for limbo contracts could be part of the final agreement.

Of course, if they decertify then all hell could break loose. That'd be wild.

That's not going to happen though and I'd be shocked if this isn't worked out by New Years at the latest.

I'm thinking by New Year's too. That's when the entire season is at risk and both sides will be motivated to move towards each other more. Though there's federal mediation now. Maybe that'll help move things along? I don't think it can hurt.

http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/view/11838893

[lildwarf]

Carroll: 'Everybody had hope'


Charlotte Bobcats guard Matt Carroll fully expected a deal Monday that would have avoided canceling any of the NBA season.
And now?
"They're not going to let us go back to work until they get everything they want," said Carroll, the Bobcats' representative to the players union.



Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/10/11/1559251/carroll-everybody-had-hope.html#ixzz1adKYvOBC

[Chef]

the players union should ban social media from the players

JaredDudley619 Jared Dudley
RT @Ohyeah_fern: @JaredDudley619 how is this lockout affecting you right now? It's driving me insane! ( not getting paid, but still working)

really jared? if by working you mean playing ball and going to the gym all day. that's right a large part of your faithful fan base do this in their spare time after working a long day getting paid 1% of what you do.