Kidd-Gilchrist versus Barnes

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Sorry if this has been covered before. I noticed Kidd-Gilchrist had risen on the draftexpress mock recently.

I don't claim to be an expert, but it is my understanding that Kidd-Gilchrist has about everything you'd want at SF except for a solid outside shot. Am I offbase?

What are your thoughts on these two? I would be fine with either one.

[SWedd523]

Great defender and rebounder. But don't expect him to offer anything on the offensive side of the ball. Plays a lot like a young Crash.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Great defender and rebounder. But don't expect him to offer anything on the offensive side of the ball. Plays a lot like a young Crash.

A young crash wouldn't be so bad, I guess. Defense and rebounding should translate to the Association pretty easily.

longterm start 5?

Kemba
Hendo
K-Gilchrist
Biyombo
Mullens

That's at least 3 defenders and 2-3 guys who can put the ball in the hole. If Mullens works out, he draws out the bigs, allowing space for Biyombo and Gilchrist to operate with whatever offensive skills they can bring.

Good enough for the long haul?

[dav7z]

We need a go to and Barnes fits much better. Barnes just needs more attitude. Like Kemba and SMACK

[CatNation1]

Kidd-Gilchrist has everything you cant teach, his biggest "flaw" is his outside shot (he's still a 33% 3pt shooter, not a 17% from the closer line like Crash was at the same age or a 9% shooter like DeRozan). He's more like a mediocre outside shooter, not exactly bad. His ballhandling isn't perfect, but its not like Barnes is any better. Barnes flaws are things you can't teach: confidence, elite athleticism, finishing ability etc. He's a decent catch and shoot guy but we already have a LOT of those guys. MKG is the better fit for us and the better prospect

[ohara831]

If we are picking with one of the first 2, it wont be Kidd-Gilchrist. It could be if we trade back with NO for a 2 for 1. Kidd-Gilchrist will likely go in the 4-8 range. I'd be for a trade with NO if it enabled us to get 2 Lottery picks.

[SWedd523]

Gilchrist is a terrible "fit" for us as he's basically a taller Gerald Henderson. Hendo/Gilchrist can't score on their own, so having a shoot-first PG like Kemba is going to be a real downer on the offensive side of the ball. He's also no better an athlete than Barnes (neither one is elite).


Neither Gilchrist nor Barnes is a great "fit", but Barnes is the better option of the two because we need perimeter shooting more than we need perimeter defense

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Kidd-Gilchrist has everything you cant teach, his biggest "flaw" is his outside shot (he's still a 33% 3pt shooter, not a 17% from the closer line like Crash was at the same age or a 9% shooter like DeRozan). He's more like a mediocre outside shooter, not exactly bad. His ballhandling isn't perfect, but its not like Barnes is any better. Barnes flaws are things you can't teach: confidence, elite athleticism, finishing ability etc. He's a decent catch and shoot guy but we already have a LOT of those guys. MKG is the better fit for us and the better prospect

From what little I've read and seen, I'm inclined to agree with this notion that Gilchrist pretty much has all the things that you can't teach.

Maybe Barnes will be better for a few years but Gilchrist will eventually surpass him?....

[Veteran_Picksetter]

We need a go to and Barnes fits much better. Barnes just needs more attitude. Like Kemba and SMACK

Can attitude be taught??

On the flip side, over the course of an 82 game schedule, maybe skills are way more important than having an attitude in the sense that you mean "attitude" here....

We definitely know Barnes is capable of catching and scoring off 0-2 dribbles. And he should be able to overpower 2's and some 3's in the lane.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Gilchrist is a terrible "fit" for us as he's basically a taller Gerald Henderson. Hendo/Gilchrist can't score on their own, so having a shoot-first PG like Kemba is going to be a real downer on the offensive side of the ball. He's also no better an athlete than Barnes (neither one is elite).


Neither Gilchrist nor Barnes is a great "fit", but Barnes is the better option of the two because we need perimeter shooting more than we need perimeter defense

I have faith that Hendo is getting there as a one-on-one scorer, at least with the help of a screen/pick. In my humble opinion Kemba had better learn to distribute regardless of who he's lined up with. Let's hope.

Do you feel that K-Gilchrist is no better than Barnes as a finisher?

[SWedd523]

The majority of Gilchrist's buckets come on rebound put backs and "half" post moves and the majority of Barnes' buckets come on spot up 3s or one/two dribble jumpers. Neither one has the consistent ability to take the ball, beat their man off the dribble, and finish at the rim.

[Pepperz]

Barnes flaws are things you can't teach: confidence, elite athleticism, finishing ability etc.

Where do you get these ideas from?

Confidence, he must have some kind of confidence in his game when he shoots .436 from down town.

Elite athleticism, He doesnt have that but neither does Gilchrist. He has more then enough to play the position.

Finishing ability, have you seen the Clemson game from last year or Miami game. Draining the winning shot in both of those games. Those two instances can also fall under confidence.

What you might be looking for is he lacks that "killer instinct" that a super star posses. He's not begging for the ball in the final min or throwing the team on his back when things get tough. He did show glimpse of that in the tournament by stepping up his game BIG time but never a whole season.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Kidd-Gilchrist: It was been written, even in at least one profile, that he is a great athlete and that he compares to Gerald Wallace.

Definitely seems to be a difference of opinion on that here, though.

I was impressed by him in the UNC game. But in fairness, Barnes was having to guard him with foul trouble.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Where do you get these ideas from?

Confidence, he must have some kind of confidence in his game when he shoots .436 from down town.

Elite athleticism, He doesnt have that but neither does Gilchrist. He has more then enough to play the position.

Finishing ability, have you seen the Clemson game from last year or Miami game. Draining the winning shot in both of those games. Those two instances can also fall under confidence.

What you might be looking for is he lacks that "killer instinct" that a super star posses. He's not begging for the ball in the final min or throwing the team on his back when things get tough. He did show glimpse of that in the tournament by stepping up his game BIG time but never a whole season.

I think folks mean finishing ability here as finishing AT THE RIM, not finishing out a game. At least, that's how I interpreted it and meant it.

[CatNation1]

This thread just shows you how many people have watched Barnes with there tarheel blue colored glasses and probably rarely watch KG. he's a year younger with a much much more complete game shooting+driving+running+passing+rebounding+defens e and he is more athletic to boot. Barnes is better at catch and shoot and worse at everything else as a 2nd yr player


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9mefHjfo30

[CatNation1]

Gilchrist is a terrible "fit" for us as he's basically a taller Gerald Henderson. Hendo/Gilchrist can't score on their own, so having a shoot-first PG like Kemba is going to be a real downer on the offensive side of the ball. He's also no better an athlete than Barnes (neither one is elite).


Neither Gilchrist nor Barnes is a great "fit", but Barnes is the better option of the two because we need perimeter shooting more than we need perimeter defense

Gilchrist is having arguably a better season playing with a more scoring/combo oriented PG as opposed to one of the purest passers in recent memory that Barnes has. even more proof he's a better fit for us

[Pepperz]

Its a matter if you want a Glen Rice type player compared to Gerald Wallace type player. IMO, This team needs more offense. If we kept the same team and added Gilchrist, teams will just collapse the D cuz they will never have to worry about the 3 ball. I see Barnes with the same type of mentality as Eli. People are going to question him all thru out the season but once it gets to the playoffs where it really matter, he will preform just like he did last year. Watch Barnes step up his game this March than lets ask the question whos better.

[SWedd523]

This thread just shows you how many people have watched Barnes with there tarheel blue colored glasses and probably rarely watch KG. he's a year younger with a much much more complete game shooting+driving+running+passing+rebounding+defens e and he is more athletic to boot. Barnes is better at catch and shoot and worse at everything else as a 2nd yr player


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9mefHjfo30

LOL I hope you're not referring to me, I guarantee you I've seen more Kentucky basketball games this year than anybody else on this site. You won't find anybody who says Gilchrist has an advantage shooting, driving, or running the floor.


The difference in the two players is clear. Gilchrist is a great rebounder, defender, and hustler but is a terrible shooter (watch the video at 0:49, his body is facing the three point line) , can't beat his man off the dribble on a consistent basis, and cannot initiate an offense (passing). Barnes is a great shooter and defender, but is a finesse player and can't beat his man off the dribble on a consistent basis or initiate an offense. Athleticism is a wash between the two.

Gilchrist would fit a team that has a dynamic scoring offense that doesn't require much pressure on his shoulders as it lets him beat his man with effort or open shots as they play off on other scorers or shooters (basically UK's offense. Would fit Dwight/Lakers/Blazers/Memphis). Barnes would fit a team that has a motion or fast break offense with a pass first PG so he can pick his spots on the offensive side of the ball(basically UNC's offense. He'd fit a Nash/Clippers/Hawks/Dwight team)

The fact that it's still being argued shows you must have a thing against UNC for whatever reason. I could care less where Barnes or Gilchrist go to school. As a matter of fact, I've said for a long time that I don't want Barnes to be our pick because we need a guy like Jeremy Lamb on the team. I've also said that if I had to pick a SF, it'd be Quincy Miller. But if we're going to compare the two, I think Barnes will have a better NBA career (Glen Rice vs. Gerald Wallace) and would be a better fit on our team because our only shooters are either injured (Reggie) or can't shoot (Hammer).

[CatNation1]

i dunno what youre arguing. if you're looking for a perfect franchise player he's not in this draft, if you are looking for the best player in our pick range at our worst position, our pick is Gilchrist. idk what to tell you :S

[SWedd523]

You think Gilchrist will be a top 3 pick? No...

[CatNation1]

Its arguable he is now. Theres probably at least one more guy that will stay...Drummond if he keeps his word, I could even see Barnes staying another year. Hell even MKG and Davis could stay in school. who knows

[SWedd523]

As of now, among all of the eligible players, Davis/Drummond/Lamb are going to be 1-2-3. Sullinger and Perry Jones will also go above Gilchrist, and Barnes still has a claim. Plus guys like Thomas Robinson and Quincy Miller will probably make a push.

Way too early to say Gilchrist goes top 3.

[CatNation1]

I'd say look at DraftExpress, but I already had him as the best SF of the draft a month ago. If you don't see it you just dont I guess

[SWedd523]

And I could say look at NBADraft.net.

[CatNation1]

lol I already said we have different opinions i dunno what to tell you. just dont act like its crazy to say he is potentially a top 3 pick cuz its not

[SWedd523]

Just checked some other popular sites.


ESPN
HoopsWorld
HoopsHype
WalterFootball
Hoops Addict
Hoops Report

All have Gilchrist in that 6-8 range like I said.

[CatNation1]

like I said, I make my own judgements. its nice to see that the best draft site finally agrees. the others will slowly change. most of them base their stuff off DX

[Veteran_Picksetter]

like I said, I make my own judgements. its nice to see that the best draft site finally agrees. the others will slowly change. most of them base their stuff off DX

Draftexpress and Jonathan Giovny(sp?) DO seem to be pretty serious about this stuff. When I saw THEM listing Gilchrist at 3, it inspired me to start this thread.

[Plowright]

Kyle Singler and Trey Thomkins were in the lottery this time last year, look THINGS CHANGE. There is still half a season to go in college ball!

[ohara831]

If we pick 1, it will be Davis. If we pick 2 or 3, Lamb or Barnes. If we trade with NO in a 2 for 1 swap for their 2 lottery picks, likely Kidd-Gilchrist in that range of #4-8 and then BPA with the 2nd lottery pick. Just my guess.

[Chef]

we need scoring. barnes and lamb are far more of a need than a young gerald wallace. i would not do a 2 for 1 if it meant not getting barnes, quincy miller or lamb.

[ohara831]

we need scoring. barnes and lamb are far more of a need than a young gerald wallace. i would not do a 2 for 1 if it meant not getting barnes, quincy miller or lamb.


I get what you're saying. But dont discount the possibililty of getting Sullinger and Kidd-Gilchrist or Sullinger and Brad Beal (move Hendo to SF) if we make a 2 for 1 swap. Lots of options available. I think the only one I know at this point I would not make the 2 for 1 swap would be if we have the #1 pick and it will be Anthony Davis. All others would require thought and deliberation before making a final decision. I may end up agreeing with you and feel the same towards Barnes and Lamb in due time, but not yet.

[Bosnian-Bobcats-Fan]

Id rather have Barnes then Kidd Gilchrist....we need scoring and i feel like Barnes will have a better career and has more starpower than MKG. Even though barnes might lack some confidence i feel like he could turn into a star, but if we get a chance to get anthony davis we gotta get him. Id take Quincy Miller before i'd take MKG honestly maybe even before Barnes...i really like Miller swedd you think Miller would be a good fit with us?

[SWedd523]

Of the lotto rated SFs, Quincy Miller is by far the best fit for our team.


And I hate saying that because I don't like Miller at all

[ohara831]

SWedd, if we did do a 2 for 1 swap with NO and grabbed Quincy Miller with a 2nd late lottery pick, would not be a bad thing at all IMO.

[Plowright]

We have been saying we need a star. THIS IS OUR DRAFT TO GET ONE

[Demon DeaCat]

Kidd-Gilchrist = Dominic Maguire. All those intangibles like "hustle" and "heart" are great, but I'll take the guy with superior skill. To me, Barnes over MKG is a no-brainer. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a can't miss superstar in this draft, but I think Barnes is the safest bet to develop into a really good player. If we took him we could probably pencil him in as our starting SF for the next 7-8 years. Whether he'd become a star, who knows, but I wouldn't be mad if he ended up in orange.

[Mustachio]

MKG has Corey Brewer written all over him. No thanks.

[CatNation1]

MKG has Corey Brewer written all over him. No thanks.

lol if we are just going to say blatantly wrong statements with no backing them up then Harrison Barnes has James Jones written all over him

[Mustachio]

lol if we are just going to say blatantly wrong statements with no backing them up then Harrison Barnes has James Jones written all over him

offensively challenged, defensive minded guard/forward who is the 2/3 option on a national champion caliber squad... Just has a Corey Brewer vibe to him, I want no part of it. I'm sorry my opinion hurts your feelings.

[CatNation1]

offensively challenged, defensive minded guard/forward who is the 2/3 option on a national champion caliber squad... Just has a Corey Brewer vibe to him, I want no part of it. I'm sorry my opinion hurts your feelings.

Doesn't hurt my feelings in the least (can't take criticism well :(?) and they aren't even comparable prospects in terms of what they do and impact on the game. Or even more importantly, in personality. I just don't think you really know what you're talking about.Freshman Kidd-Gilchrist is superior to junior Corey Brewer at almost everything.

[Mustachio]

I just don't think you really know what you're talking about.Freshman Kidd-Gilchrist is superior to junior Corey Brewer at almost everything.

stats look almost exactly the same for the record. And really i was more talking about the feeling he gave me more than anything, just another guy.

[Zoolander]

I just don't get where the Glenn Rice comparisons are coming from. I'll admit I don't watch NC or Duke games much, but from what I've seen of Barnes I wouldn't touch him at all. I guess I need to watch him more..

[The Milk]

This will be interesting to see play out. I like different aspects of each's game. I think it really depends on what our organization wants out of the SF position. Scoring? Or defense?

[Bosnian-Bobcats-Fan]

I dont think MKG has good enough skills to be a great NBA player Harrison Barnes is better and no doubt the safer pick.

[SWedd523]

I was reading a rundown on Gilchrist and they summed him up perfectly: "basketball player". He's not particularly good at anything, but is just such a natural basketball player that he can compete on the college level. That said, pure "basketball players" don't always pan out well so you typically like to go with the skilled player in you can.

[Chef]

I was reading a rundown on Gilchrist and they summed him up perfectly: "basketball player". He's not particularly good at anything,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Red_flag_II.svg/250px-Red_flag_II.svg.png

[Keetch]

I hope we're not in a position to choose but for me its MKG. I want to like Barnes but I find his game frustrating. Let's see how this years tournament plays out.

[CatNation1]

I don't see how Barnes is particularly "skilled" compared to MKG. We get it..he has a decent catch-and-shoot jumpshot ok. Rebounding, passing, shotblocking and man defense are also skills.

[SWedd523]

The difference being that rebounding, shotblocking, and defense aren't products of skill. Guys with no skill like Diop, Bismack, DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Evans, Tony Allen, etc are all players nobody would consider "skilled", but are good rebounders, shot blockers, and defenders. You can do those things just by TRYING.

Also, I wouldn't consider Gilchrist a particularly good passer either (not that Barnes is).

[Veteran_Picksetter]

The difference being that rebounding, shotblocking, and defense aren't products of skill. Guys with no skill like Diop, Bismack, DeAndre Jordan, Reggie Evans, Tony Allen, etc are all players nobody would consider "skilled", but are good rebounders, shot blockers, and defenders. You can do those things just by TRYING.

Also, I wouldn't consider Gilchrist a particularly good passer either (not that Barnes is).

It's kind of like in NFL football where truly every player has "skills", but the ones who generally do the scoring (RB, QB, WR) are referred to as the "skills positions" players. Technically speaking all of those things(rebounding, shotblocking, defense) are skills because they involve the ability to anticipate, box out, whatever, but I see where you are coming from: In sports the term "skill" is generally applied to the skills which take a longer time to develop (as in Barnes' shooting skill) or those which are simply more related to scoring/having the ball in your hand.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

And this raises an interesting question for me. Did Alexis Ajinca simply not try hard enough in games, or did he just have zero anticipation skills??? It often looked to me like he didn't know how to react to plays in anyway shape or form. Like he basically hadn't played enough basketball, really.

[adam187]

I think you guys are confused. I googled it and this is what I found.

List of skills

Magic: Alteration, Conjugation, Destruction, Enchanting, Illusion, Restoration
Combat: Archery, Block, Heavy Armor, One-Handing, Smithing, Two-Handed
Stealth: Alchemy, Light Armor, Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Sneak, Speech

How do Kidd-Gilchrist and Barnes compare in each of these categories?

[cltblkhscoach]

I can see the comparisons to Glen Rice. Good size small forward that can take his man in the post and score, and as well he's a deadeye shooter off screens and standstill. I think off the dribble he needs to work on his game, but honestly Carolina doesn't run a lot of isolation in their offense. Face it. We need scorers, damn all this defense and rebounding skills. We know we're still gonna suck next year, at least let's score more while doing it. Gilchrist doesn't do it for me. At all.