Viewing Byron Mullens as a 4-man.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Look, I KNOW, I KNOW.....We need him to be a Center on this roster. But do y'all think he would be better as a 4-man in his early to mid 20's, given the right situation?

Think about it:

1. He moves and runs the floor fairly well.
2. He shoots well from the outside.
3. He gets manhandled by a lot of centers, especially on the boards.
4. Maybe he would get more boards going head to head with PF's in the 225 to 250 lb. range?
5. As he fills out, slide him to Center full-time....wherever he is playing 5 years from now.

What do y'all think?

[dnbman]

I'd say no. One thing I like about him is that he can pull the opponent's C out of the paint when we're on offense or get a bunch of open looks. Plus, I want him to learn to play C, his inevitable position, really well rather than make him a 'tweener.

I really just want him to turn into Okur.

[GoBobs]

I think his biggest problem is he can't defend any position at the nba level well. That isn't going to change by moving him around. He isn't physical down low and I don't know if he is going to develop that. Dirk kind of did at some point but most players don't. He also doesn't really move his feet well, and that makes for a bad combination. If he could be physical he could play the four or five. If he could move his feet he could play the four or even the three. Problem is he can't do either. It is up to him to improve and until that point he is a sixth man at best who is starting because he is on a bad team.

[SWedd523]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "position" doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is who guards whom. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the heat, Bismack will guard the "PF" Bosh and Mullens will guard the other big. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the Magic, Bismack will guard the "C" Dwight and Mullens will guard the other big.

[MadBOBCATfanUK]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "position" doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is who guards whom. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the heat, Bismack will guard the "PF" Bosh and Mullens will guard the other big. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the Magic, Bismack will guard the "C" Dwight and Mullens will guard the other big.
thats why every team with 2 or more pretty good bigs seems to murder us

[dnbman]

He isn't physical down low and I don't know if he is going to develop that. Dirk kind of did at some point but most players don't. He also doesn't really move his feet well, and that makes for a bad combination. If he could be physical he could play the four or five. If he could move his feet he could play the four or even the three. Problem is he can't do either. It is up to him to improve and until that point he is a sixth man at best who is starting because he is on a bad team.

He seems to scrap though, which makes me think he could develop a more physical presence with workouts and training. Guy's still young.

[polarcat]

The way the game is now versus 10-15 years ago, I think Mullens can be a starter at C for us and do well. Thing is he needs Biyombo out there with him to compliment his style of play. Mullens can't play with Diaw, Thomas, etc but Biyombo's strengths balance out Mullens weaknesses and Mullens strengths do the same with Biyombo's weaknesses. If you think less of it as a dedicated PF and C and more of two bigs that play down low, it is easier to accept. I'm sure in the end we will draft this year's best PF, continue grooming Biyombo to be our center and have Mullens come off the bench as a 6th man. Personally, I believe Biyombo can add another inch or two, 15 lbs of muscle and some offensive moves in the next 2-3 years and be a solid 6'10" -6'11" 14/12/2 center in this league that is feared in the paint.

[cltblkhscoach]

+1 Polarcat I totally agree. Mullens has started to vary his offense some and he's had a little more success again recently. He's been doing better in the post and he's trying, but I'm not sure how much attention he got in OKC in terms of development so he's still raw there too.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "position" doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is who guards whom. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the heat, Bismack will guard the "PF" Bosh and Mullens will guard the other big. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the Magic, Bismack will guard the "C" Dwight and Mullens will guard the other big.

"Position" is simply another way of saying who he GENERALLY guards and gets guarded by. Yeah, there would be exceptions, but if Mullens played alongside a 7-foot, 290 lb. interior beast, he'd generally be guarding the "less strong" or "less interior-oriented" big, AKA the 4-man. There is a reason that position terminology is in basketball. If it is good enough for somebody like Hubie Brown, it is good enough for me.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

I think his biggest problem is he can't defend any position at the nba level well. That isn't going to change by moving him around. He isn't physical down low and I don't know if he is going to develop that. Dirk kind of did at some point but most players don't. He also doesn't really move his feet well, and that makes for a bad combination. If he could be physical he could play the four or five. If he could move his feet he could play the four or even the three. Problem is he can't do either. It is up to him to improve and until that point he is a sixth man at best who is starting because he is on a bad team.

I'll grant you that I haven't seen every game, but Mullens has moved well enough when I've watched. And what ever low post game he might have at this point could be more effective against the 4's than the 5's.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

I'd say no. One thing I like about him is that he can pull the opponent's C out of the paint when we're on offense or get a bunch of open looks. Plus, I want him to learn to play C, his inevitable position, really well rather than make him a 'tweener.

I really just want him to turn into Okur.

Good points, but maybe just the same he could actually have an effective low post game against a lot of "4's", whereas now he can't against 5's. I personally don't see a lot of difference between learning the "4" vs. the "5". It's just a matter of pairing him with a massive Center so a lot of teams are forced to guard Mullens with a 6'9" 245 guy.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "position" doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is who guards whom. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the heat, Bismack will guard the "PF" Bosh and Mullens will guard the other big. If Bismack and Mullens are playing the Magic, Bismack will guard the "C" Dwight and Mullens will guard the other big.


OR I could rename the thread, "Viewing Byron Mullens as a guy to play next to an even larger, stronger, more interior-oriented 7-footer." But "4-man" just works better for me.

And yes, there are instances where Biyombo would guard the "5" while Mullens guards the "4" versus the other way around. But my way of putting that is that Biyombo is a 4 who can also handle the 5 against many players, at least part time. I don't know if I want Biyombo guarding 260-280 lb guys fulltime yet. He's strong, but that could do some wear and tear on him.

[Zoolander]

The way the game is now versus 10-15 years ago, I think Mullens can be a starter at C for us and do well. Thing is he needs Biyombo out there with him to compliment his style of play. Mullens can't play with Diaw, Thomas, etc but Biyombo's strengths balance out Mullens weaknesses and Mullens strengths do the same with Biyombo's weaknesses. If you think less of it as a dedicated PF and C and more of two bigs that play down low, it is easier to accept. I'm sure in the end we will draft this year's best PF, continue grooming Biyombo to be our center and have Mullens come off the bench as a 6th man. Personally, I believe Biyombo can add another inch or two, 15 lbs of muscle and some offensive moves in the next 2-3 years and be a solid 6'10" -6'11" 14/12/2 center in this league that is feared in the paint.
:yeahthat: right now he's an energy guy. That's pretty much all he can do consistently. Until he rounds off his game he won't be more than a 6th man, but hey, a lot of guys make a damn good living that way. A good sixth man is a valuable commodity.

[SWedd523]

OR I could rename the thread, "Viewing Byron Mullens as a guy to play next to an even larger, stronger, more interior-oriented 7-footer." But "4-man" just works better for me.

And yes, there are instances where Biyombo would guard the "5" while Mullens guards the "4" versus the other way around. But my way of putting that is that Biyombo is a 4 who can also handle the 5 against many players, at least part time. I don't know if I want Biyombo guarding 260-280 lb guys fulltime yet. He's strong, but that could do some wear and tear on him.

Why is there a need for arbitrary classifications? Bismack is smaller than Mullens yet has the ability to guard the bigger guys out there. Chuck Hayes is 6'6 yet guards the biggest opposing player.

Is Bismack a PF just because he's 6'9?
Is Gerald Wallace a SF or a PF? He's a wing but rebounds like a big man.
Would you call Derrick Rose a PG or a SG?He handles the ball, but he does most of the shooting.
What would you call LeBron? He handles and passes like PG, but plays on the wing.


The point is that the game has evolved, especially since the time Hubie grew up. There are far less positional players and far more "basketball players" The only reason people call Mullens a Center is because he's 7 feet tall. He doesn't play the game in the pivot like traditional Centers, but it's not like traditional Centers exist anymore.

I guess what I'M trying to say is that "searching for a defensive Center" is unnecessary because he needs a defensive partner regardless of position and "converting Mullens to a PF" is unnecessary because he already plays like a traditional PF anyway. It's not like his game is going to change just because you play him next to Dwight Howard.

[spectre]

Why is there a need for arbitrary classifications?

When you desperately need a 2 guard, your best player is a SF and your GM Bernie Bickerstaff drafts Adam Morrison with the rationale "there is no SG or SF...only "wings".

I generally agree with you, but that one pissed me off.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Why is there a need for arbitrary classifications? Bismack is smaller than Mullens yet has the ability to guard the bigger guys out there. Chuck Hayes is 6'6 yet guards the biggest opposing player.

Is Bismack a PF just because he's 6'9?
Is Gerald Wallace a SF or a PF? He's a wing but rebounds like a big man.
Would you call Derrick Rose a PG or a SG?He handles the ball, but he does most of the shooting.
What would you call LeBron? He handles and passes like PG, but plays on the wing.


The point is that the game has evolved, especially since the time Hubie grew up. There are far less positional players and far more "basketball players" The only reason people call Mullens a Center is because he's 7 feet tall. He doesn't play the game in the pivot like traditional Centers, but it's not like traditional Centers exist anymore.

I guess what I'M trying to say is that "searching for a defensive Center" is unnecessary because he needs a defensive partner regardless of position and "converting Mullens to a PF" is unnecessary because he already plays like a traditional PF anyway. It's not like his game is going to change just because you play him next to Dwight Howard.

There is still a place for the 1-5 positional terminology in this game. It is simply a starting place for communicating about players. Of course there are gray areas, but that is the case with just about anything.

Derrick Rose is a Point Guard, a "1" who can obviously score better than most. He brings the ball up the court and usually guards the opponents primary ballhandler.

Gerald Wallace is a great-rebounding 3 starting next to 2 bigs. Yes, he can slide over to the 4-spot for a period and guard a bigger player for small stretches.

LeBron is a 3 who can do a lot of things.

Magic Johnson was clearly a 1 who could guard 1's to 4's. I see no problem describing it that way.

Paul Pressey was called a "Point Forward" for a reason. It was understood that he was a 3 defensively who behaved more like a 1 on offense.

And Hubie Brown understands more about TODAY'S game than any of us here. I heard him doing a great job on TV just the other night.

If you pair Mullens with a Dwight Howard or an Andrew Bynum(or at least the poor man's version), the other team will often be forced to guard Mullens with a smaller big(generally speaking a "4"), and that could very easily change Mullens's approach. He could add more post up attempts to his game and see how that goes. I see no problem referring to him as the "4" in that lineup situation.

[adam187]

i think the real issue is probably that mullens isn't quite as good as he needs to be, no matter where he is on the court. i hope he continues to get better and i will say he has attacked the rim more often lately. he's still young with plenty of time to improve.

that said, the only two 7 footers in the league who carry their teams with outside shooting are dirk and durant, and those dudes are elite shooters (and elite scorers). mullens has a pretty good shot, but he's never gonna get to that level.

[Marvel]

Mullens defense is BAD, on an epic level. His offense is catch it and shoot it from 20 ft out.
Seems like all the Mullens fans creamed their pants a little early.

[dnbman]

I don't think this is just about what you do with one player, though. We have to practice with guys working as a unit. That doesn't mean they can't switch positions, but I'd rather have our limited talent understand where they're supposed to be and what they're supposed to do really well at one position than be switched back and forth. It doesn't matter to me if those roles change from one side of the court to the other (playing the 5 on O; playing the 4 on D), but I think developing players need some consistency.

[dav7z]

Mullens defense is BAD, on an epic level. His offense is catch it and shoot it from 20 ft out.
Seems like all the Mullens fans creamed their pants a little early.
Mully is still much better than i expected . I still belive it was a steal by CHO. Hell we talking about a solid rotation player for all most nothing . Hell they paid us to take him . I can tell age is the main factor in determining positions. Sweed is right about the true old post up centers . Its a dying breed replaced by more athletic players . But i still consider position on the defencive side of the ball. As in our strongest player guards thair strongest player. Thats why i all ways say Smack is a center . Because the way he guards the paint . See most teams this year have been useing the quicker 4 man to guard Mullly any way . See if we just considered offence . DJ White looks more like a center than any player we have. Because most of his work is with his back to the basket posting up defenders. Whitch like another said is a dieing bread.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

I hear ya, Dnbman.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Mully is still much better than i expected . I still belive it was a steal by CHO. Hell we talking about a solid rotation player for all most nothing . Hell they paid us to take him . I can tell age is the main factor in determining positions. Sweed is right about the true old post up centers . Its a dying breed replaced by more athletic players . But i still consider position on the defencive side of the ball. As in our strongest player guards thair strongest player. Thats why i all ways say Smack is a center . Because the way he guards the paint . See most teams this year have been useing the quicker 4 man to guard Mullly any way . See if we just considered offence . DJ White looks more like a center than any player we have. Because most of his work is with his back to the basket posting up defenders. Whitch like another said is a dieing bread.

DJW has shown a strong midrange face up game whenever I've watched. He strikes me as more of a "4" in general. Not big enough to defend a Bynum.

I would consider Biyombo simply a 4/5. He has the ability/potential to guard inside AND outside as he learns the game. He shouldn't be guarding gigantic , weightier bigs for 35 minutes every night--not until goes through the normal physical-broadening that many 20-somethings do.

I would not quite pronounce the death of the traditional "Center". Howard and Bynum are interior-oriented, massively strong traditional bigs, and anybody would love to have them on their team. Also, Yao Ming should still be in league. Darn those premature injuries.

I would be careful about saying this or that trend is "dying". Trends tend to be cyclical. Also, I heard the international game was set to adopt the nba lane, which should infuse more post play into the overall pool of available players.

[dav7z]

DJW has shown a strong midrange face up game whenever I've watched. He strikes me as more of a "4" in general. Not big enough to defend a Bynum.

I would consider Biyombo simply a 4/5. He has the ability/potential to guard inside AND outside as he learns the game. He shouldn't be guarding gigantic , weightier bigs for 35 minutes every night--not until goes through the normal physical-broadening that many 20-somethings do.

I would not quite pronounce the death of the traditional "Center". Howard and Bynum are interior-oriented, massively strong traditional bigs, and anybody would love to have them on their team. Also, Yao Ming should still be in league. Darn those premature injuries.

I would be careful about saying this or that trend is "dying". Trends tend to be cyclical. Also, I heard the international game was set to adopt the nba lane, which should infuse more post play into the overall pool of available players.

Agreeded with all for the most part . I was only refering to DJ White on offence. Hes not strong enough to defend the paint well . Though he does get post position more than any other player on the team. He reminds me of Armond Gilleiam. a early player for the old Hornets in Charlotte from the expansion draft. Instead of saying a dying trend i guess i could say the position has expanded . Quicker more athletic players play that position today. Back in the day 7foot centers ruled . Now some small fowards are 7 foot. The game is much quicker now . Back then the ball had to go into the post on all most ever play . Draw the dubble and kick it back out. That was when centers was[ bad ass] tough. Okaley and be for that.

Your reply about SMACK guarding larger players? Does that go back to OK5O and us useing him as a center? That debate lasted for a long time . With some saying playing center prevented him from reaching his potencial.

[Toocool]

The age of big men is over in the post, not just Center but PF also)
Now 7 footers simply get by on potential and athleticism, such as DeAndre Jordan, Javale McGee.
Amazing athletes, but simply not skilled on offense (since they're just happy to being paid huge amounts of money for their defensive side).
Now a lot of the shots go to the PG/Wings (for instance, Carlos Boozer arguably had the best post game in the league at some point, and now barely takes shots due to D.Rose).
But like you guys have been saying. No more clumsy slow strong centers, a lot have to be quick and athletic now.