Explain our offensive system this past season

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Maybe I'm too old school, but I remember the motion offense that Denver ran in the 80's, which was also used by Alan Bristow to help LJ, Zo, and Kendall Gill get to the playoffs in 1993.

This season, under Silas, it seemed like a common play was to have 2 guys run a pick-and-roll while the other 3 just stood around. Or just have 5 guys stand roughly in the same spot and throw the ball around until someone shakes his man(not often). Or maybe have Gerald come off the screen on the right side. Am I missing something? I know we had little practice time, but really??

I'll grant that I did not see every game. Did anybody see more than that in our offense?

Is standstill pick-and-roll basketball just how it is in the NBA now?

Whatever happened to 5 guys moving around for 20 seconds and setting screens for each other on play after play? Is that just passe'?? Did the coaches figure that that was too much wear and tear?? Or maybe cocaine use declined and players now have less energy?? (See nba games in the 70's)

[Chef]

Maybe I'm too old school, but I remember the motion offense that Denver ran in the 80's, which was also used by Alan Bristow to help LJ, Zo, and Kendall Gill get to the playoffs in 1993.

This season, under Silas, it seemed like a common play was to have 2 guys run a pick-and-roll while the other 3 just stood around. Or just have 5 guys stand roughly in the same spot and throw the ball around until someone shakes his man(not often). Or maybe have Gerald come off the screen on the right side. Am I missing something? I know we had little practice time, but really??

I'll grant that I did not see every game. Did anybody see more than that in our offense?

Is standstill pick-and-roll basketball just how it is in the NBA now?

Whatever happened to 5 guys moving around for 20 seconds and setting screens for each other on play after play? Is that just passe'?? Did the coaches figure that that was too much wear and tear?? Or maybe cocaine use declined and players now have less energy?? (See nba games in the 70's)

in general not many teams do that. i blame the rise of drive and kick/iso from aau garbage basketball combined with the remnants of the jordan/shaq iso era. check out boston, denver, san antonio, minn, memphis, pacers for more movement in the offense.

the other problem with the motion based offenses are that they don't necessarily get guys the ball in positions where they can do something with it. the mid range game has largely disappeared in the last 15 years. back in the day, most players could hit contested mid rangers coming off of picks and cuts. the three point specialists and drive and kick offensive schemes are a more efficient attack. why spend all the energy working for the basket, if you end up trading twos for threes at the other end. the best you will get is a mix of iso or drive and kick and motion plays.

[WAM9]

Picksetter,

I consider myself a pretty knowledgeable guy about the game of basketball from both a player and coach perspective.

I can't tell you what the current offense is.

While it is true that the midrange game is lost, most teams are running obvious offenses. They may be taylored to the specific team / star but they run an organized set of plays. Many teams run versions of a high post, motion, low post / kick, triangle, high pick / cut/pop, just to name a few. Not many guys are utilizing the mid range game as a weapon though. Chicago may be the exception here. Hamilton is one of the best mid range shooters in the league. Boozer is way under-rated in his mid range game and Luol Deng can hit from just inside the 3 point arc as well. Other than them, I think a lot of teams plan on a 3 pt shot or a hard drive to the basket as their main thought process.

Either way, our X's and O's hopefully will greatly improve by next season (and for the record, I love Paul Silas).

[spectre]

The "LOL" offense.

[BlockParty]

I found the perfect analogy for this thread and the Amoeba offense we were executing this season:

from http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_shape_of_an_amoeba


An Amoeba has no definite shape or size because it uses amoeboid movement as a form of locomotion. In other words, the amoeba deforms its body into projections called pseudopods, or "false feet", which act like arms or feet (in a way) that slide over the surface the amoeba is currently on, later pulling the rest of the body and its organelles behind it. This process repeats all the time, only different parts of the amoeba are used as it's pseudopods, giving it, as I previously stated, no definite shape.

Converted to Catspeak:

The bobcats offense has no definite shape or size because it uses Diop and Higgins as a form of locomotion. In other words, the bobcats offense deforms itself into a charade of an NBA team called the worst team ever, or MJ's team. The PG's tend to dribble too much in a way that includes most perimeter shot being taken by our tallest players. They generally do not learn from their mistakes, merely repeating the same mistakes and then being seeming surprised when they don't get different results.

btw..I still love the Bobcats (including their name)

Can't wait until May 30th

[Sik Infant]

The "LOL" offense.


I came in here just to say this.

Our offense this year was just...WOW!! (in a bad way obviously)

Vet Picksetter had all our plays listed in one sentence!! SMH Paul Silas...

[Veteran_Picksetter]

in general not many teams do that. i blame the rise of drive and kick/iso from aau garbage basketball combined with the remnants of the jordan/shaq iso era. check out boston, denver, san antonio, minn, memphis, pacers for more movement in the offense.

the other problem with the motion based offenses are that they don't necessarily get guys the ball in positions where they can do something with it. the mid range game has largely disappeared in the last 15 years. back in the day, most players could hit contested mid rangers coming off of picks and cuts. the three point specialists and drive and kick offensive schemes are a more efficient attack. why spend all the energy working for the basket, if you end up trading twos for threes at the other end. the best you will get is a mix of iso or drive and kick and motion plays.

Thanks for the post!! What would be your personal offensive taste strictly for entertainment value? Do you find all of this drive-and-kick/iso stuff a little repetitive?

The nba did not adopt a 3-point line until the 80's. Is it fair to say that motion offense is a remnant from the 70's that lingered for 10-15 years until coaches figured out this more efficient, more motionless, 3-point oriented style?

[Chef]

Thanks for the post!! What would be your personal offensive taste strictly for entertainment value? Do you find all of this drive-and-kick/iso stuff a little repetitive?

The nba did not adopt a 3-point line until the 80's. Is it fair to say that motion offense is a remnant from the 70's that lingered for 10-15 years until coaches figured out this more efficient, more motionless, 3-point oriented style?

to the second part, i would say yes. college still largely relies on motion offenses but that is due to a lack of talent and offensive skill. the big reason i can't watch college is it pains me to watch an offense rotate the ball around correctly for a wide open jump shot that has no chance in hell of going in.

personally, i thoroughly enjoy the celtics. they all know each other's games, where they will be, where they want the ball etc. i can watch the creative screens and movement to get ray allen the ball all day long particularly when he makes the three after running four laps around the court. i also really enjoy watching memphis and minn.

i don't mind the drive/kick stuff so much from the good teams like okc, miami and the lakers but when it goes league wide and i have to watch our team do it, it makes me throw up in my mouth. given our lack of talent and young guys who largely haven't a clue, we should have been running a defined offense. hell, put them in a princeton offense just to get some flow. biz looks more clueless on offense than an old asian lady in a busy traffic round-a-bout.

[superb1]

offense, who said we ran a set offense. looks like a lot of times they were just out there and you may see a pick and roll. but I believe Silas could have done better.

[QC Thundercats]

offense, who said we ran a set offense. looks like a lot of times they were just out there and you may see a pick and roll. but I believe Silas could have done better.

What do you mean, the Bobcats had a ton of :airquote:"offensive" sets.:rim::biggrin:


This season, under Silas, it seemed like a common play was to have 2 guys run a pick-and-roll while the other 3 just stood around. Or just have 5 guys stand roughly in the same spot and throw the ball around until someone shakes his man(not often). Or maybe have Gerald come off the screen on the right side. Am I missing something? I know we had little practice time, but really??

I'll grant that I did not see every game. Did anybody see more than that in our offense?

Is standstill pick-and-roll basketball just how it is in the NBA now?

There are only so many general offensive sets that a team can use, but its how coaches adapt and make plays off of those sets to take advantage of their strengths. If they have good shooters, they will have ways to set a bunch of screens to get open deep looks. If they have good post players, then its a matter of getting spacing for them, and for the guards to know where to go to get open looks off a double team. Its all about finding and creating mismatches to get the best possible advantage. A coach with good Xs and Os know how to create these mismatches, and having a little creativity can make an offense more unpredictable and harder to stop.

However, the Bobcats had no imagination on offense. It was either our feeble attempt at the pick-and-roll, a 1-4 set that fooled nobody, or a double high post. With the 1-4 set, it was funny watching the wings try to get open by strictly running baseline to the other side. The defense knew exactly what we were doing, and would always be in the right places to block it. There were no extra curls, double picks, backdoor cuts, just run to the other side and hope the defense lets us catch the ball. By the time our wings finally caught the ball, we had 10 seconds left to manufacture a wild drive, or shoot a contested jumper. We almost never had an easy shot.

The pick-and-roll is one of the most basic yet devastating plays, if you have two players that know what they're doing. It creates two automatic mismatches, with a slow big defender switching out onto a quick guard and a little guard trying to stop a big powerful post player, or it can create complete chaos, with the defense having to show out and help then recover or switch, and increases the chance of miscommunication. PG's like Nash, Paul, Rondo, Parker, and Deron Williams are masters, as its not just a matter of coming off a screen, but all the little nuances, of knowing specifically how to set up the pick and use it to spring themselves for a wide open jumper, easy drive to the lane, or a quick pass to the picker. And if the defense tries to help, they can find other open shooters. Then the picker has two options to roll hard to the hoop for an alley-oop, or step out for an easy midrange jumper over a small defender. Garnett, Stoudemire, and Bosh are some of the best at getting these jumpers or easy baskets at the rim.

The Bobcats problem is that they have none of the above. Augustin generally understands the concepts, but is often too passive in his attack, and Kemba still needs to figure out how to read the defense, as he made a ton of mistakes while getting learning experience. No other guard we had could run it, as Hendo isn't a good enough passer to get others involved, and Williams battled injuries all year.

The second, just as important part of the equation is the picksetter (and we didn't have the "Veteran" type). Mullens is the best of the bunch, but doesn't really know how to set picks - he doesn't set his feet properly, moves too early or late, and doesn't really free the ballhandler. But he shows promise with the pick and pop, and was strong early in the year with DJ in rolling to the hoop for dunks. Biyombo has no jumper or ball handling skills, so while he sets solid screens, he can do nothing off of it, and our PG ended up getting double teamed. Diop was worthless, Diaw couldn't care less, Tyrus just wants to shoot fade away jumpers, and DJ White could pop out for midrange shots, but didn't show any consistency in knowing how to get to the basket for easy looks.

Basically, it was a disaster for us to even attempt a pick-and-roll.


Picksetter,
While it is true that the midrange game is lost, most teams are running obvious offenses. They may be taylored to the specific team / star but they run an organized set of plays. Many teams run versions of a high post, motion, low post / kick, triangle, high pick / cut/pop, just to name a few. Not many guys are utilizing the mid range game as a weapon though. Chicago may be the exception here. Hamilton is one of the best mid range shooters in the league. Boozer is way under-rated in his mid range game and Luol Deng can hit from just inside the 3 point arc as well. Other than them, I think a lot of teams plan on a 3 pt shot or a hard drive to the basket as their main thought process.

I think the midrange game is still there, but it has changed over time from the guards to the big men. As the 3 point shot was introduced, and as it became more and more an integral part of the game, the guards started moving their games beyond the three point line at the expense of the midrange game. Now it is mostly big men that are the masters of the midrange, as they too have expanded from just a simple post game to facing up and hitting jumpers on the elbows and short corners on the baseline. As a big man, you need a 15-20 foot shot to be successful, especially PFs.


to the second part, i would say yes. college still largely relies on motion offenses but that is due to a lack of talent and offensive skill. the big reason i can't watch college is it pains me to watch an offense rotate the ball around correctly for a wide open jump shot that has no chance in hell of going in.

personally, i thoroughly enjoy the celtics. they all know each other's games, where they will be, where they want the ball etc. i can watch the creative screens and movement to get ray allen the ball all day long particularly when he makes the three after running four laps around the court. i also really enjoy watching memphis and minn.

Regarding college offenses, if you watch Big 10, Big 12, or SEC basketball, then yes I agree. I couldn't watch these 45-40 snoozefests that are common in those conferences. Before the ACC started to fall off, they regularly had teams average over 80 points a game. And not to keep mentioning UNC, but Dean Smith created one of the most innovative and unstoppable offensive systems that still work today. I realize many people can't bring themselves to pull for the Heels, but as a basketball purist, their offense is fast, exciting, and fun, and not just because of pushing it and scoring on the break, but many other innovations.

Just a quick look at the coaching tree shows how good the system is in college and the NBA:
Dean Smith (UNC) - Hall of Fame, NCAA champion
Larry Brown (Everybody) - Hall of Fame, NCAA champion, NBA champion
Roy Williams (Kansas, UNC) - Hall of Fame, NCAA champion
Billy Cunningham (Philadelphia) - NBA champion
Doug Moe (Denver) - Coach of the Year, Western Conference Champion
George Karl (Seattle, Milwaukee, Denver) - Western Conference Champion, 1000+ wins

As you can see, the system has created some of the best offenses in NBA and NCAA history. While Larry Brown was here, our offense became very consistent and effective. He's different than the other high scoring coaches though because he's an anal, controlling bastard, but the offense works.


i don't mind the drive/kick stuff so much from the good teams like okc, miami and the lakers but when it goes league wide and i have to watch our team do it, it makes me throw up in my mouth. given our lack of talent and young guys who largely haven't a clue, we should have been running a defined offense. hell, put them in a princeton offense just to get some flow. biz looks more clueless on offense than an old asian lady in a busy traffic round-a-bout.

If you remember last year when Silas first took over, we were still running LB's(Dean's) offensive sets, and our offense looked competent enough. I think we should've kept running it this year, as at least we had a several players know it enough to teach the newcomers. Instead, everybody had to learn a completely new system, except without a preseason or any practice time.



The nba did not adopt a 3-point line until the 80's. Is it fair to say that motion offense is a remnant from the 70's that lingered for 10-15 years until coaches figured out this more efficient, more motionless, 3-point oriented style?

Its one of Jordan's influences on the game. It went from having great teams like the Celtics and Lakers, to more of a superstar driven league. Principles of the motion offense will always be around, but you need to have a more structured set to continually get good shots, otherwise a defense will figure it out and shut it down.

If you like good offenses that work the ball around without a ton of iso's or reliance on 3s, I'd say the Celtics, Spurs, Nuggets, and Grizzlies would be the most entertaining to watch. The Thunder are nice too, but Westbrook gets a little myopic and shot happy, and the Pacers might be a little boring. The Bulls rely on Rose too much when he's there, but they seem to really work the ball around when he's gone, so it'll be interesting to see how they play together now.

[Dcarnys]

We had an offensive system??

[Plowright]

All we ran was pick and roll while the other 3 guys make the odd cut to the basket. If we didn't run that we would set to screens on the low post and try to hit the SG or SF for a midrange Jumper curling off a screen. That was pretty much it...

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Great post, QC!! Have you done any coaching? Yes, veteran picksetting is about my only role on the court anymore......