The Cold, Hard Truth of the Rebrand

[QC Thundercats]

This whole debate on the rebranding issue has been getting frustrating, as it seems that people’s stances are starting to become more entrenched, with a mentality of “you’re either with us or against us.” Its good to see passion there, as it shows that people want what’s best for the team. But some posters keep repeating the same arguments or using bad analogies to try to paint the other side as all kinds of backwards and wrong for thinking the way they do.

The thing we should realize is that being a fan of the Charlotte Bobcats and hoping for a rebrand to the Charlotte Hornets are not mutually exclusive, as it is the franchise that we all care about and have invested time, money, and hair follicles to. Its not a black or white issue, but rather one with a ton of gray area. But since this concept seems to continually get lost, the simplest way to convey what I’m talking about is the tried and true Venn diagram:


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/2747/screenshot20120503at113.png



As you can see, while there are some fans that like the Bobcats name just fine, and there are some people who would only acknowledge the team if it had the Charlotte Hornets name, there is in fact a huge cross-section of people who are both fans of the Bobcats and fans of the idea to rebrand. And most of us in this cross-section of fans are going to continue being fans, whether they are the Bobcats, Hornets, or whatever else they’re called.

What some posters keep getting caught up on though is the “Charlotte Hornets only or bust” crowd. I think we all can agree that these people are lame, stubborn, thickheaded, intransigent curmudgeons who only drink their coffee black and believe that sex is only for procreational purposes. And since most true sports fans are extremely prideful and loyal, we can’t stand such fickle people who only want to cheer if things are a certain way, and aren’t there for the lows as well as the highs. (Also, note the small circle for New Orleans Hornets fans. This shows them as a separate entity, and not part of the cross-section of the Bobcats/rebrand fans. The yellow circle is not what the rebrand people want, we hate that team, don’t want anything to do with them, would never cheer for them, just want them to give up the name. Please don’t mention them again in any counterarguments)

The problem is, for the franchise’s health and long term future in Charlotte, this seems to be quite a large segment of the population that can’t be perpetually ignored. It’s easy to just say eff them all, but that’s not a very prudent thing to do in the business world.

So lets make up some numbers to put onto the Venn diagram. Let's say there are 20,000 fans of the Bobcats (including those that also would like a rebrand). This is a nice amount of fans that can fill an arena, although a segment of this group may not be able to afford tickets, or live too far away, or are too busy to attend many games. This can knock the base of fans that can regularly attend to 10,000. Now, as everyone can admit, if the team is a winner, then there is the non-diehard segment of the population who would start to become interested, and that number could swell to say 30,000. But if the team is struggling, those fans will quickly lose interest, and then we’re right back at the start.

Now, lets look at the people who don’t acknowledge our NBA team unless they are called the Hornets. Lets say there are 20,000 of those bastards. If we don’t ever rebrand, they will never become fans of the team (again, I understand us real fans’ pride, and thinking “who cares, we don’t need them”). But if we do rebrand, all of a sudden our base of fans doubles to 40,000. If they become winners, then everyone in the city is now behind the team. If they start struggling again, well this bigger base of fans will still be there, as it logically follows that since they had passion and pride in the Hornets name, they’ll stick with them through the good and bad like in the early days.

The biggest fear of mine, and I’m sure countless others who experienced firsthand the tragedy of losing the Hornets, is for the Bobcats to up and leave Charlotte too. Just hearing rumors earlier this year of Jordan maybe bailing in a few years brought back horrible memories. I don’t think he’d sell, but just the thought of an out of state buyer breaking the lease and moving to Bumfuck Missouri keeps me tense. If we can guarantee tens of thousands more fans just by a simple rebrand, this may be enough to ensure that the Bobcats don’t continue to bleed money and be forced to sell. The popularity of the brand nationwide will also keep our franchise in the top 5 in merchandising, which along with the increased ticket sales, will help our bottom line furthermore, give us more exposure, TV time, advertising opportunities, partnership deals, etc., and allow us to afford free agency signings and not worry so much about staying under the tax threshold.

So yes, the name change of course doesn’t guarantee success, and being a winner under the Bobcats name will bring many fans over. But you also must acknowledge that there is an exponential growth potential of popularity and money that would far exceed the Bobcats’ ceiling if both the name is changed to the Hornets, AND they become a winner. And I feel that potential legacy is what would keep our franchise in Charlotte forever.

[SWedd523]

Not going to argue with you either way but I think you're forgetting the orange section in your scenario. How many of the original 20k will support, and only support the Bobcats? It's a tough question and nigh impossible to answer but I don't think it's safe to assume they'd all stay in the newly doubled 40k.

I'm sure the blue section is larger anyway so it's probably moot, but just didn't want you to miss a fairly important aspect.

10,000 loyal to Bobcats (orange)
15,000 loyalto Hornets (blue)
20,000 combined (purple)

[adam187]

what's funny is that you could put all those circles into a bigger circle called "People Who Hate George Shinn."

[Katmandu]

I think Klan, Taliban or Tumors would be unacceptable as team names. I'm sure there are others. That said, I could care less about what they call the team. I'm really more interested in the product they put on the floor.

[dav7z]

Im so sick of all this crap. If we win people will come . If we don't people wont come . I don't care what logo you use . Like Mustacho said if you get just 2000 season ticket sales requesting the old Hornets and logo go with it . If not just let it die kinda put up or shut up . Im going to back the team either way.

[Mustachio]

Not going to argue with you either way but I think you're forgetting the orange section in your scenario. How many of the original 20k will support, and only support the Bobcats? It's a tough question and nigh impossible to answer but I don't think it's safe to assume they'd all stay in the newly doubled 40k.

I'm sure the blue section is larger anyway so it's probably moot, but just didn't want you to miss a fairly important aspect.

10,000 loyal to Bobcats (orange)
15,000 loyalto Hornets (blue)
20,000 combined (purple)


Thats crazy talk. I love the Bobcats, but am all for the name change. I think you would be hard pressed to find 100 people much less 10k people that would be loyal to the Bobcats brand only.

[BIGCatBobcat]

what's funny is that you could put all those circles into a bigger circle called "people who hate george shinn."

high-yo!!!!!!!!

[SWedd523]

Thats crazy talk. I love the Bobcats, but am all for the name change. I think you would be hard pressed to find 100 people much less 10k people that would be loyal to the Bobcats brand only.
"I won't go back to that George Shinn team!!"

"They left I don't want them back!"

"Change the name to something else, sure, but not the Hornets!"



are just a few of the arguments I can imagine

[JGib23]

Great thread Thundercat as this tries to break down the group from a numbers perspective and takes away some of the emotions that have spilled into the other thread.

My guess on the what the breakdown would be based on Newspaper articles, comments on message boards, radio shows, and newspaper stories. (just my opinion- but I'm trying to be fair despite my bias towards group C)

Group A 0-5% loyal to Bobcats only and would not support this team if it changed to any name other than Bobcats. I think this number is much closer to zero than 5. I think if you are already a fan of this team, a name change won't make you stop being a fan but, there are some that may fall into this category.

Group B 10-15% prefer Bobcats but, would still support the team if it changed names. This group may not spend as much money as they currently do because they may be upset that they wasted money on Bobcats gear. ( the team would be smart to offer a big discount for season 1 at the team store if you trade in Bobcats gear).

Group C 50-60% prefer Hornets but, would still support the team if it stays the Bobcats. Changing to Hornets would inspire them to spend equal to or greater than the amount of money they currently spend on tickets and merchandise. I think this number is much higher based on local radio shows, newspaper polls and message boards. ( the poll in the Observer was 84% favoring the Hornets). A 25 -35% margin of error in the poll is more than a far amount for me to deduct.

Group D 10-15 % Prefer Hornets and will not support the Bobcats. This group has stayed away from the NBA ever since George Shinn took his ball and left and will not give the "Bobcats" a chance. Only the Hornets brand returning will get them back in the arena. ( I think this group is lame but, I do believe they exist)

Group E 10% Don't have a preference at all. They attend Bobcats games but, are fans of other teams and pull for the Bobcats as there 2nd team. Or don't like the Bobcats and come only to see great players or teams ( Heat, Lakers, etc.)

[Jennings]

To get the Hornets name back looks like it would be 3 years before we would even get it. New Orleans will have it at least one more year, then IF we wanted it back it would take us 2 years to get it. Not sure how many people realize that.

[JGib23]

To get the Hornets name back looks like it would be 3 years before we would even get it. New Orleans will have it at least one more year, then IF we wanted it back it would take us 2 years to get it. Not sure how many people realize that.

Jennings - I don't think it will take nearly that long. My guess is 1 year at most (from the time the decision is made). the Bobcats don't need to wait until New Orleans rebrands, they can work during the same time. All the Bobcats need to know is that New Orleans is definately changing and make the decision to rebrand. From there New Orleans can be working on their new brand at the same tie Charlotte is working on ours. (just for comparison OKC rebranded from Sonics in about 3 months, the Nets just rebranded this week and the final designs were complete until recently) I think 2 years is what the NBA would prefer but, it can and has been completed much, much quicker.

For example- it looks like Tom Benson is pushing hard for a quick rebrand as 2 new names and logos were registered this week in State of Louisiana.

And during the final game of the season Adam Silver was in town and said the following according to Rick Bonnell

"@rickbonnell: NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver is here. Says he expects to have a conversation with #Bobcats about the Hornets nickname.

@rickbonnell: Adam Silver confirmed a name change usually takes 24 months. Said a Bobcats-to-Hornets change simpler since rights already NBA property."

[BETCATS]

Great thread Thundercat as this tries to break down the group from a numbers perspective and takes away some of the emotions that have spilled into the other thread.

My guess on the what the breakdown would be based on Newspaper articles, comments on message boards, radio shows, and newspaper stories. (just my opinion- but I'm trying to be fair despite my bias towards group C)

Group A 0-5% loyal to Bobcats only and would not support this team if it changed to any name other than Bobcats. I think this number is much closer to zero than 5. I think if you are already a fan of this team, a name change won't make you stop being a fan but, there are some that may fall into this category.

Group B 10-15% prefer Bobcats but, would still support the team if it changed names. This group may not spend as much money as they currently do because they may be upset that they wasted money on Bobcats gear. ( the team would be smart to offer a big discount for season 1 at the team store if you trade in Bobcats gear).

Group C 50-60% prefer Hornets but, would still support the team if it stays the Bobcats. Changing to Hornets would inspire them to spend equal to or greater than the amount of money they currently spend on tickets and merchandise. I think this number is much higher based on local radio shows, newspaper polls and message boards. ( the poll in the Observer was 84% favoring the Hornets). A 25 -35% margin of error in the poll is more than a far amount for me to deduct.

Group D 10-15 % Prefer Hornets and will not support the Bobcats. This group has stayed away from the NBA ever since George Shinn took his ball and left and will not give the "Bobcats" a chance. Only the Hornets brand returning will get them back in the arena. ( I think this group is lame but, I do believe they exist)

Group E 10% Don't have a preference at all. They attend Bobcats games but, are fans of other teams and pull for the Bobcats as there 2nd team. Or don't like the Bobcats and come only to see great players or teams ( Heat, Lakers, etc.)

Anyone can put percentages next to opinions. It doesnt make it true.

[JGib23]

Anyone can put percentages next to opinions. It doesnt make it true.

Thats why I said "just my opinion" before I ever placed any numbers.

I could be totally off in my estimates, that's just the feeling I have based only on what I've read and heard (the Observer poll is the closest we have to a survey and over 10,000 votes were cast- of which Hornets was favored by 84%, my estimate was much more conservative at between 60-75%) It's not any more scientific than my rough ass guess. (although I honestly think its in the ballpark of what a legit survey would produce)

I do believe the 5 groups are a good breakdown of the different perspectives regarding a name change.
1. Bobcats only
2. Prefer Bobcats, will support Hornets
3. Prefer Hornets, will support Bobcats
4. Hornets only
5. Don't give a shit

[bozzy]

I think people are really being naive to think that changing the Bobcats name will actually gain them fans automatically. At the end of the day, if they don't create a winning culture, none of it matters.

[SWedd523]

I think people are really being naive to think that changing the Bobcats name will actually gain them fans automatically. At the end of the day, if they don't create a winning culture, none of it matters.
I think a lot of these name change fans are over-romanticizing the benefits of it, but even I can admit that simply going back to the Hornets will indeed bring in fans. Will a lot of them be bigoted, close-minded jackholes? Yes. They should support the team regardless of the name. But they probably will come around more often.


But I will agree with you that even if we do change the name, the uptick in fan support will only last so long if we continue to suck. They'll stick it out for the short term just on the novelty, but a lot of them will be gone after another couple 15-20 win seasons. That's what fairweather fans are.

[Potato]

I think a lot of these name change fans are over-romanticizing the benefits of it, but even I can admit that simply going back to the Hornets will indeed bring in fans. Will a lot of them be bigoted, close-minded jackholes? Yes. They should support the team regardless of the name. But they probably will come around more often.


But I will agree with you that even if we do change the name, the uptick in fan support will only last so long if we continue to suck. They'll stick it out for the short term just on the novelty, but a lot of them will be gone after another couple 15-20 win seasons. That's what fairweather fans are.You hit the nail on the head with this one. Changing back to the Hornets will bring more fans, but if we continue to suck it really won't matter in the long run.

[CatNation1]

hitting a home run in this draft is incredibly more important than an irrelevant name change. I hope there aren't too many people in the organization working on this right now. Its a 2 year process at minimum, in 2 years I think we should be an up and coming young team competing in the playoffs. By then a name change will be silly.

[JGib23]

Catnation- 3 points.

1. Many people disagree with you that a name change is irrelevant. This topic stirs too many emotions on both sides to consider it irrelevant. If a name change/ rebrand wasnt relevant, no team in any sport would ever spend money to do it. Tom Benson just spent 300+ million dollars and one of the first things he announced while sitting beside the Commish was he was going to change the name of a franchise that has been in New Orleans 2 years longer than the Bobcats have been in Charlotte.

While the "brand" of a team has never scored a point and never won a game. It is very important.

#2 I don't think it will take 2 seasons. I think it could happen as soon as this offseason if Tom Benson & MJ wanted it to happen. Does MJ want to change? Who knows.

If MJ does want to change, I believe things are most likely already in motion. There is no need to wait, all he needs to know is that Tom Benson is changing and he can't start working as well.

The fact that Adam Silver mentioned that he would discuss the Hornets name with MJ personally leads me to believe that it's a pretty serious consideration.

#3- Hitting a home run in this draft is more important than almost anything for this franchise. We are coming off the worst season in the history of NBA basketball. I don't think anyone would rather have a name change than a good team.

I think everyone wants a great team regardless of what it's called.

[Potato]

Yeah I'm starting to get eager lol I'm ready for some breakthrough news.

[dnbman]

#2 I don't think it will take 2 seasons. I think it could happen as soon as this offseason if Tom Benson & MJ wanted it to happen. Does MJ want to change? Who knows.

If MJ does want to change, I believe things are most likely already in motion. There is no need to wait, all he needs to know is that Tom Benson is changing and he can't start working as well.

The fact that Adam Silver mentioned that he would discuss the Hornets name with MJ personally leads me to believe that it's a pretty serious consideration.

#3- Hitting a home run in this draft is more important than almost anything for this franchise. We are coming off the worst season in the history of NBA basketball. I don't think anyone would rather have a name change than a good team.

I think everyone wants a great team regardless of what it's called.

My completely uneducated opinion (I've only followed this from a distance via thread posts) is that it would be at least a year before a rebrand.

If you rebrand this year, there's far too much of a chance that it comes across as a pig in lipstick. However, if they wait a year, the organization has the chance to put a few more pieces together and keep fans in the seats once they come back.

The organization would also be able to make a smooth transition for current fans who are "Bobcats4Life." They can make amends with those folks and do a better job of making the Hornets kick-off much stronger.

I don't think it has to be multiple years. One more full year of the Bobcats would be sufficient.

The decision and execution shouldn't be rushed, though. If they rebrand, they should do it right. While many people think it's as simple as burning all of the Bobcat paraphernalia and restocking the shelves, I think you have to make this a strong push that this team will be the HORNETS in the city of CHARLOTTE for a long time and the organization isn't just trying anything to drum up interest.

[BlockParty]

Logistically speaking, not that facts get in the way of opinions at times, there is a minimum 2 1/2 years before a Charlotte NBA team would have any name except the Bobcats across their chest.

The inch thick catalog sent out to all retail outlets that carry NBA Gear for the upcoming season is mailed out in March each season, it's May now, which is another reason the Hornets is the name for the team in New Orleans for the 2012-13 season. So the initial orders for the 2012-13 season have already been made, and the only choice in that catalog for New Orleans is "the hornets" no matter what their new owner wants. The NBA has indicated that they expect some discussion may occur with Charlotte about the availability of the Hornets name, the 24 month wait list would still be in effect.

The argument that the New Orleans owner can just make it happen doesn't hold true with recent/similar situations.

A Russian billionaire buys the Nets, they are moving out of the state, yet they still had to wait announced in Aug 2010 a change that won't hit the court until Oct 2012.

The OKC name change from the Sonics is possibly the best example for a quick pro-Hornet change, however, it's not very easy if you dig into how and why it changed so quickly. The Seattle team stay in Washington for at least 1 year longer than the new owner wanted because of legal battles and the new ownership group still ended up paying dearly ($45-75M) in the settlement (which included the Sonics name HAD to remain in Seattle).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008030229_sonitrial02.html


it was announced that the team and city had reached a settlement where PBC would pay the city $45 million immediately in exchange for breaking the lease and an additional $30 million if Seattle was not given a replacement team in five years. According to the conditions of the settlement, the Sonics' name and colors could not be used by the team in Oklahoma City, but could be taken by a future team in Seattle, although no promises for a replacement team were given. The OKC team would retain the franchise history of the SuperSonics, which could be "shared" with any future NBA team in Seattle. The team moved to Oklahoma City immediately and announced it would begin play in the 2008–09 season

The Thunder became the Thunder in their first season because the Sonics name was not allowed to leave Seattle.

Basically this is just the city of Seattle learning from Charlotte's mistakes. The city of Charlotte did the same thing when the NBA and city of Charlotte reached the Uptown Arena deal. Part of that deal is if the NBA were ever to leave Charlotte again, the name stays.

My hope would in 2 1/2 years would be that the fans of NBA basketball in Charlotte, were concerned about Anthony Davis not being voted a starter in the all-star game despite being named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year...yanno, something that actually involves the activity on the court.

[JGib23]

BlockParty-

I won't pretend to know the first thing about when/how NBA merchandise is ordered. I will say that the NBA draft doesn't happen until late June and those Jerseys get to the retailers pretty quick.

The New Orleans "Hornets" situation is a pretty unique and I'll explain my reasoning for why I don't think it will take 2 1/2 years before they can rebrand.

#1. The team has been for sale since at least 2009, the NBA took over the team in Dec 2010 and had been searching/negotiating with local (New Orleans) owners for 16 months before announcing that Tom Benson would purchase the team last month.

#2. Tom Benson at his introductory press conference while sitting beside David Stern announces that he would like to change the name. In fact here's his direct quote

"We want to change the name from Hornets to something that means New Orleans and Louisiana. The Hornets don't mean anything."

David Stern has been negotiating to sell the team for 15 months (I'm not sure how long with Tom Benson but, a 343 million dollar deal doesn't come together very quickly). This can't be the first time Tom Benson has mentioned a name change in David Stern's presence. In fact, Im guessing an expedited rebrand along with timing was agreed to and included in the contract to purchase the team.

Merchandising makes up a huge portion of the leagues revenue, I don't think Tom Benson/David Stern would sacrifice 2 1/2 years merchandising for an entire market. How much merchandise do you think a team will sell over a 2 1/2 year period if the fans knew everything including the name was changing? The Bobcats finished last in the NBA in merchandising and that still accounted for 50 million in league wide revenue. I don't think the NBA would be willing to sacrifice that kind of revenue by making a team wait that long to change their brand (ecspecially after the owner announces that the brand Hornets "doesn't mean anything")

The Brooklyn Nets situation is not an Apples to Apples comparison. The Brooklyn arena will not be ready until next season so the timing of the rebrand was dictated by the physical move of the team not the NBAs artificial timeline. It would have made zero sense to "rebrand" to Brooklyn before the team was actually moving. The team finished it's last game in New Jersey and the new brand was launched the following week. (I'm pretty sure the inch thick book of NBA merchandise you mentioned being mailed out in March didn't contain the new Nets gear)

Even without the physical move limitation, according to the press release it took 1 season to rebrand and in fact the final designs weren't complete until a few weeks before the launch (showing that things move much, much faster than 2 years.)


I agree with you.... I hope in 2 1/2 years this rebrand talk will be behind us (because by then we are the Hornets) but, to be honest the only way the name change talk stops is to actually change the name back to Hornets. I honestly believe that as long as the name "Hornets" is available to be used, the talk will never stop.

[King Taharqa]

Logistically speaking, not that facts get in the way of opinions at times, there is a minimum 2 1/2 years before a Charlotte NBA team would have any name except the Bobcats across their chest.

The inch thick catalog sent out to all retail outlets that carry NBA Gear for the upcoming season is mailed out in March each season, it's May now, which is another reason the Hornets is the name for the team in New Orleans for the 2012-13 season. So the initial orders for the 2012-13 season have already been made, and the only choice in that catalog for New Orleans is "the hornets" no matter what their new owner wants. The NBA has indicated that they expect some discussion may occur with Charlotte about the availability of the Hornets name, the 24 month wait list would still be in effect.

The argument that the New Orleans owner can just make it happen doesn't hold true with recent/similar situations.

A Russian billionaire buys the Nets, they are moving out of the state, yet they still had to wait announced in Aug 2010 a change that won't hit the court until Oct 2012.

The OKC name change from the Sonics is possibly the best example for a quick pro-Hornet change, however, it's not very easy if you dig into how and why it changed so quickly. The Seattle team stay in Washington for at least 1 year longer than the new owner wanted because of legal battles and the new ownership group still ended up paying dearly ($45-75M) in the settlement (which included the Sonics name HAD to remain in Seattle).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008030229_sonitrial02.html



The Thunder became the Thunder in their first season because the Sonics name was not allowed to leave Seattle.

Basically this is just the city of Seattle learning from Charlotte's mistakes. The city of Charlotte did the same thing when the NBA and city of Charlotte reached the Uptown Arena deal. Part of that deal is if the NBA were ever to leave Charlotte again, the name stays.

My hope would in 2 1/2 years would be that the fans of NBA basketball in Charlotte, were concerned about Anthony Davis not being voted a starter in the all-star game despite being named the NBA Defensive Player of the Year...yanno, something that actually involves the activity on the court.

GREAT POST!!! With actual FACTS, not opinions. When we turn it around, Charlotte and the local media will hop back on the wagon, they always do!

[TheBeagle]

I think Klan, Taliban or Tumors would be unacceptable as team names. I'm sure there are others. That said, I could care less about what they call the team. I'm really more interested in the product they put on the floor. Yup. Me as well. I'd love a color scheme of orange and black whatever they do, if anything, but that's the only input I have in the debate.

[Mustachio]

Yup. Me as well. I'd love a color scheme of orange and black whatever they do, if anything, but that's the only input I have in the debate.


NOOOO not you too Beagle! Yet another Halloween Bobcats fan I have to try and silence.

[anton273]

As long as it stays Charlotte I don't care, It's my girlfriends name n would suck if that changed!!!

In all seriousness something needs to be set in stone.

Jordan needs to get his business head on and maybe dis-associating with bobcats name might be a good thing after this season!

I am a fan of this team regardless of what they are called or colours!

Im loyal to this team and I think some fans need to see if they are loyal or are more bothered about wearing a stupid purple hat with a bee on it