Should have drafted Klay Thompson last yr

[DashGlobal]

Dude really finished the season strong. Led all rookies with over 40% clip from 3.

Not sure how we passed up a player with great size (6'7) scoring (20+ppg) and shooting (40% from 3 & 80% from the FT)

I see this guy turning into a 20ppg scorer nxt year for GS.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBtzD0axgio

[Plowright]

We also shouldn't have drafted Adam Morrison but we did. To be honest Kemba still has the ability to be a better player than Klay, lets just wait and see.

[DashGlobal]

We also shouldn't have drafted Adam Morrison but we did. To be honest Kemba still has the ability to be a better player than Klay, lets just wait and see.

I dont agree with that. Morrison dominated in college. Shot well and put up great numbers. Has good size for a SF. He scored in a variety of ways. No one could have foreseen his monumental flop.

I also dont think Kemba has the upside of Klay. Due in large to Kemba being so undersized and also lacking great PG vision. I like Kemba though and think he will be a solid pro.

[MadBOBCATfanUK]

Shooters come and go PG's with Kemba's handles are rarer. In terms of upside I think Kemba has more, too quick and to good with the ball in his hands.

[spectre]

I dont agree with that. Morrison dominated in college. Shot well and put up great numbers. Has good size for a SF. He scored in a variety of ways. No one could have foreseen his monumental flop.

Sure they could. A "scorer" vs. a shooter, his total lack of athleticism and no handles constantly going up against arguably the most athletic position in the game? Prime set up to fail.

A lot of people predicted Morrison would be one of our biggest goofs ever.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

You might be able to blame Adam Morrison for us not getting Klay Thompson.

The knock on Thompson in college was that he might not be athletic/fast enough.

If I were in MJ's shoes, after Morrison, I'd probably be scared of drafting another questioned athlete for the wing position.....for the next 10 years or so......

Thompson turned out fine. Let's see how he ages/progresses.....

[ALong13]

Its pretty well known I didn't really care for the Kemba Walker pick, liked Biyombo, but just never cared, and still don't care for the Walker selected. Unfortunately for me it looks like DJ will be gone and Kemba will be our new starter, hopefully he proves me wrong, but i honestly don't see him as a consistent score, or a big scorer...Definitely, not a great passer.

Then again, my scouting hasn't been too good...I wanted Jordan Hamilton from Texas, or Nikola Vucevic from USC last season...Hamilton has done very little for Denver, Nikola Vucevic has flashed at times for the 76ers, but overall hasn't done much...so as I said, hopefully Kemba proves me wrong...

With that said, I did like Klay Thompson, kid definitely has a lot of potential and looks to be a keep for the Warriors for years to come.

[Plowright]

I dont agree with that. Morrison dominated in college. Shot well and put up great numbers. Has good size for a SF. He scored in a variety of ways. No one could have foreseen his monumental flop.

I am afraid you just killed your own argument there, guess who else shot well and put up huge numbers in college... Kemba plus he won an NCAA championship

[DashGlobal]

I am afraid you just killed your own argument there, guess who else shot well and put up huge numbers in college... Kemba plus he won an NCAA championship


There was a third component....

Size

[spectre]

There was a third component....

Size

The "good size in college"? Didn't help Morrison so much in the pros when he had about the same lateral quickness as my grandmother. Probably near her vertical leap too.

[DashGlobal]

The "good size in college"? Didn't help Morrison so much in the pros when he had about the same lateral quickness as my grandmother. Probably near her vertical leap too.

Morrison was def not athletic, but you dont have to be athletic to be successful in the NBA.

Lets be real every, GM / mock had Morrison as a top 5 pick. If we didnt pick him, another team would have. He just happen to be a huge bust.

I like Kemba, but man that dude is small.

Thats why im also nervious about drafting Beal. There isnt alot of elite 6'4 SG's in the league. On top of that his college stats we mediocre.

[SWedd523]

Don't have to be tall to be successful in the NBA either

[Plowright]

Some times it is just best to admit that you are wrong on something, to learn we all have to

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Morrison was def not athletic, but you dont have to be athletic to be successful in the NBA.

Lets be real every, GM / mock had Morrison as a top 5 pick. If we didnt pick him, another team would have. He just happen to be a huge bust.

I like Kemba, but man that dude is small.

Thats why im also nervious about drafting Beal. There isnt alot of elite 6'4 SG's in the league. On top of that his college stats we mediocre.

Let's wait and see how his measurements turn out. If he has similar length to Eric Gordon, he should be fine.

Mediocre stats?? Nearly 7 rebounds a game as a 6'3"-6'4" player? 1.39 total points per shot attempt?? That's exactly the kind of offensive efficiency we need from the guard spot.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

I am afraid you just killed your own argument there, guess who else shot well and put up huge numbers in college... Kemba plus he won an NCAA championship

I believe Kemba shot 42% in his magical senior year. Still a little too low on the college level for my taste.

[spectre]

Morrison was def not athletic, but you dont have to be athletic to be successful in the NBA.

Lets be real every, GM / mock had Morrison as a top 5 pick. If we didnt pick him, another team would have. He just happen to be a huge bust.

I like Kemba, but man that dude is small.

Thats why im also nervious about drafting Beal. There isnt alot of elite 6'4 SG's in the league. On top of that his college stats we mediocre.

Getting a little technical, but I don't think Ammo would have went top 5 if we hadn't chosen him. Portland wanted Aldridge (resisting all the fan pressure to select Morrison), Toronto - Bargnani & Chicago was hot for Tyrus. Atlanta had promised Shellhead (LOL!), so realistically he'd have his best chance with Minny or Boston. Still y0u're right...he'd have been taken high lotto by someone.

I don't get it though. He'd really have to have a Bird effect in order to be successful given his limitations. I see no way he could have been worth being picked 3rd overall.

For the record I wasn't hot for him...was in the Roy and then the Gay camp and exactly for the same reasons I'm laying out here. I don't follow college ball so all my knocks then and now are from an athletic standpoint.

I'd prefer a bigger PG too, and I hate having a disadvantage at any position due to size. Kemba's impact will need to be enough to make it worth having that disadvantage...and I'm willing to let him show me that he can.

[DashGlobal]

Let's wait and see how his measurements turn out. If he has similar length to Eric Gordon, he should be fine.

Mediocre stats?? Nearly 7 rebounds a game as a 6'3"-6'4" player? 1.39 total points per shot attempt?? That's exactly the kind of offensive efficiency we need from the guard spot.

When did rebounding become a important stat for SG's? Also do you really think a 6'3 - 6'4 SG will be getting those rebounds in the NBA?

The facts are that Beal is undersized. Didnt shoot well. Not even 35% from 3 and under 80% from the FT line.

I dont see how anyone could be confident in taking Beal so high. He could turn out to be a good pro but there is def some concerning question marks.

[BIGCatBobcat]

The premise of this thread pisses me off. Sorry, whoever started it, but it's total BS. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, does us no good. Fun discussion, I guess, but damn, I am no ready to regret any of the picks from the last 3 years, let alone Kemba or Biz. I mean who would you have taken over Hendo?

[DashGlobal]

The premise of this thread pisses me off. Sorry, whoever started it, but it's total BS. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, does us no good. Fun discussion, I guess, but damn, I am no ready to regret any of the picks from the last 3 years, let alone Kemba or Biz. I mean who would you have taken over Hendo?

I would have taken Ty Lawson over Hendo all day. Lawson was a thousand times better than Henderson in college. And still is....

[BIGCatBobcat]

I would have taken Ty Lawson over Hendo all day. Lawson was a thousand times better than Henderson in college. And still is....

DAMN IT! it was a rhetorical question! But good point. I drool over Lawson's game. But would you have really taken him the year or 2 after DJA?

[DashGlobal]

DAMN IT! it was a rhetorical question! But good point. I drool over Lawson's game. But would you have really taken him the year or 2 after DJA?

From what was left in the draft, yea. All the other players were all "meh" besides Ty Lawson and Tyler Hansbourgh. I would have drafted Ty Lawson and traded either him or DJA for a nice piece instead of drafting a career role player / backup that high.

[SWedd523]

a) Revisionist history and hindsight are hilariously bad arguments


b) And now it's clear, Dash is a UNC homer. Still don't understand why you could think Barnes is a better prospect than Beal, but whatevs

[DashGlobal]

a) Revisionist history and hindsight are hilariously bad arguments


b) And now it's clear, Dash is a UNC homer. Still don't understand why you could think Barnes is a better prospect than Beal, but whatevs

Um no hindsight needed. I am going completely off of college. Go look at what was available for our pick and then tell me which player anyone would get excited about besides Ty Lawson or Tyler Hansbough.

Barnes has great size for the SF position.
Barnes has a pretty good shot and is clutch.
Barnes is just as athletic as Beal. (neither have elite athleticism)
The only knock on Barnes is his handle, which with practice can improve.

Beal is limited out gate due to his size. Also its not like he averaged 20ppg shot 40% from 3 and 80% from the FT line.

Im not saying Beal is bad or wont be a good pro but people are hyping him up way much imo.
It is not crazy for someone to think Barnes is the better player and also has more upside.

[SWedd523]

Why would anyone get excited about Hansbrough? Why was Lawson the 6th (7th if you count Tyreke) PG taken?

Let's not act like people were falling over themselves to draft either one of those guys and we just missed the boat because we're stupid. Certain players, like Lawson, do much better than was expected of them. It's part of the draft. It happens. If we go back and kick ourselves every time we "coulda shoulda woulda" drafted some other player, we'll never be able to move forward.


Barnes shot 35.8% from three and Beal shot 33.9%, yet Barnes has a "pretty good shot" and Beal isn't a good shooter. No bias there. Barnes had a True Shooting (much better measure than simple FG%) of 52.8%, and Beal was 57.5%, so Beal is the better shooter.

If Barnes were clutch, he wouldn't have disappeared when the team needed him most after Marshall went down.

Barnes went to the elite PG camp last year......... showed little to no improvement in his ball handling, breakdown ability, and passing.


Barnes' one redeeming quality is his standstill shooting, and he's not even that good at it. Beal can do the standstill shooting AND can beat his man off the dribble and run the PG in a pinch. That's not even taking into account Beal has shown to be a great defender and rebounder.

I'll take the guy who is literally better at every facet of the game with much more upside than the guy who has prototypical size for his position any day of the week. Besides, it's not even like Beal is a midget, 6'4'' with long arms is average size for a SG. Go tell Dwyane Wade and Ray Allen they're too short

[DashGlobal]

Swedd,

Why would someone get excited about arguably the best PF in college? Is that a real question? And we were suppose to get excited about a average at best SG in Henderson?

The number of PG's taken before Lawson is irrelevant. All that proves is that the draft deep with talented PG's. And what does that have to do with Lawson being a 1000 times better player than Henderson?

Barnes isnt / was never billed as a great shooter. His bread and butter will come from his mid range game and posting up smaller defenders.

The thing about Beal is he is billed as a GREAT shooter. And that is simply not true. His numbers are average. His height is below average. Scored at an average clip per game.

Now do I think what I mentioned above is truly representative of what Beal can be? No. And I would prob take Beal over Barnes. Although I think both are gonna make solid pros.

[SWedd523]

Swedd,

Why would someone get excited about arguably the best PF in college? Is that a real question?
Oh silly me, I forgot Hansbrough was still in college


And we were suppose to get excited about a average at best SG in Henderson?
He's pretty easily been a better NBA player than Hansbrough.


clipped the rest

[Veteran_Picksetter]

When did rebounding become a important stat for SG's? Also do you really think a 6'3 - 6'4 SG will be getting those rebounds in the NBA?

The facts are that Beal is undersized. Didnt shoot well. Not even 35% from 3 and under 80% from the FT line.

I dont see how anyone could be confident in taking Beal so high. He could turn out to be a good pro but there is def some concerning question marks.

Beal's strong rebounding shows that he has a vertical size presence despite being 6'4". It's likely that he has good strength and length, which is more important than height. Good rebounding for one's position is usually a great sign for a prospect to belong the pros. It indicates a number of things: size/length, athleticism, "manliness", hustle, desire, skill, etc....

As far as Beal's shooting, I don't know how else I can put it: Beal scores a lot of points for the limited number of shots he puts up. 1.39 points per shot is terrific for a guard. This is reflected in Swedd's True shooting stat for Beal. It could mean that a high percentage of his made FG's were 3's. And/or it could mean he was better than Barnes at drawing fouls and making free throws.

I think Barnes was somewhere around only 1.20 points per shot attempt. Not so great considering he was 6'8" and well-built.

DashG, it's really premature to judge a player's size until we see the pre draft numbers. We do nothing with the tops of our heads in basketball. Let's see how high Beal's reach is and how wide his wingspan is. Then we'll get a better idea of his vertical presence.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

We were in no position to take Lawson at the time of his draft. We had DJ coming off a great rookie season. We still had Raymond, coming off a solid first year under Brown. And we couldn't keep adding more undersized players. We needed to add length and we desperately needed to bolster the SG position with aging Raja Bell as the returning starter and little-to-no backup. We got it in Henderson.

Hansbrough didn't have great length coming out of college. He's been just about what I expected in the pros. A decent part of a rotation.

[DashGlobal]

Oh silly me, I forgot Hansbrough was still in college


He's pretty easily been a better NBA player than Hansbrough.


clipped the rest

I was talking about before the NBA. Aka Hans was arguably the best PF in the nation. And Henderson was an average SG.

And in regards to Hendo being a better pro, thats just false. In Hendo's best year he averaged 1.1 PPS (points per shot) to Hans 1.2 PPS.

Hans career ppg is higher than Hendo's. 9.9 to 9.3

Hans is like the 8th option on Indiana and doesnt even play half the game and still averages almost double figures a game compared to Hendo being the focal point in our offense and playing 30+ minutes a game.

Taking all that into consideration id say Hans is the better player. Esp considering Hendo's atrocious 3fg %. Should be illegal for a SG to shoot so poorly.

[DashGlobal]

As far as Beal's shooting, I don't know how else I can put it: Beal scores a lot of points for the limited number of shots he puts up. 1.39 points per shot is terrific for a guard. This is reflected in Swedd's True shooting stat for Beal. It could mean that a high percentage of his made FG's were 3's. And/or it could mean he was better than Barnes at drawing fouls and making free throws.



So if 1.3 PPS is so great for a SG, what about John Jenkins who averages 1.5 PPS?

They are both the same size as well.

[DashGlobal]

We were in no position to take Lawson at the time of his draft. We had DJ coming off a great rookie season. We still had Raymond, coming off a solid first year under Brown. And we couldn't keep adding more undersized players. We needed to add length and we desperately needed to bolster the SG position with aging Raja Bell as the returning starter and little-to-no backup. We got it in Henderson.


You never take an AVERAGE at best player over a great player because of need.

[SWedd523]

I was talking about before the NBA. Aka Hans was arguably the best PF in the nation. And Henderson was an average SG.

Russell Westbrook was an average player at UCLA. Adam Morrison was probably the best player in the country before he came out. Are we supposed to draft based solely on college production?



And I can't even take you seriously trying to justify your silly belief that Hansbrough has been a better pro than Hendo. Henderson averaged 8 minutes a game his rookie season, of course his "career" averages are going to be lower. What option was Henderson last year? This was the first year Henderson got a chance to be a focal point of a team and averaged 15 a game. Pretty good if you ask me.

It should also be illegal for a PF so be such a pathetic defender and rebounder, but you don't see that stopping Hansbrough.

[DashGlobal]

Russell Westbrook was an average player at UCLA. Adam Morrison was probably the best player in the country before he came out. Are we supposed to draft based solely on college production?



And I can't even take you seriously trying to justify your silly belief that Hansbrough has been a better pro than Hendo. Henderson averaged 8 minutes a game his rookie season, of course his "career" averages are going to be lower. What option was Henderson last year? This was the first year Henderson got a chance to be a focal point of a team and averaged 15 a game. Pretty good if you ask me.

It should also be illegal for a PF so be such a pathetic defender and rebounder, but you don't see that stopping Hansbrough.

Westbrook had/has ELITE athleticism. You dont draft / evaluate a player off any ONE thing. Its a combination of things (talent / college production / size / athleticism / upside ect.)

Funny how you missed / ignored Hans PPS which was higher than Hendo's last year (Hendo's best year). Hans is the better player. Average pretty much double figures last year as the 7th option on the Pacers playing less than half the game. You give Hans the minutes and shot attempts of Hendo and his ppg and averages will be better. The numbers dont lie my man.

Hans has is downsides just as Hendo has his. I happen to think Hendo's are more concerning. 20 some % from 3 as a SG, are you fugging kidding me?!?

The point I was making was no one would have claimed Hendo was able to hold Hans jock strap coming out of college.

[SWedd523]

Funny that you try and pimp PPS when comparing a post player to a wing player. Tyson Chandler had the 5th highest TS% thhis year. Joakim Noah was 8th. Dwight Howard 15th. All of those guys were higher than Wade, Dirk, Bosh, Carmelo, Kobe, among others. Does that make them better offensive players? No.

Hansbrough also averaged a fantastic 4.4 rebounds per game last year. His Rebounding percentage was lower than Marvin Williams, Matt Barnes, Kawhi Leonard, and Brandon Bass, among many others. He also had the worst DRtg of any big man on the Pacers team.

Neither you nor I have any idea what sort of production Hansbrough would have if given starters minutes because he hasn't gotten them yet. Simply extrapolating numbers based of production against subs and in much less time has absolutely no bearing on potential production. Numbers lie all the time.


Dwyane Wade shot 26.8% from three this year. It took Michael Jordan until his 5th season to shoot over 20% from three. John Stockton made 35 threes total in the first four years of his career. Kevin Johnson, Magic Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Clyde Drexler, and Gary Payton were all not-so-good three point shooters, yet they had no issue being great players.

Hendo can't shoot.

Hansbrough can't rebound, defend, or score in the post.


1 weakness vs 3.



and btw, Hansbrough was not the best PF in the country.

http://chasing23.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/blake-griffin-oklahoma.jpg

[DashGlobal]

Hans cant score in the post? BS Averaging pretty much double figures as the 7th option playing less than half the game. Scoring has never been an issue with Hans.

Ill give you he isnt the best rebounder, although given starter minutes I see him averaging 8 rpg.

Sure you dont have to be a good shooter to be a great player. Hendo is not on any of those players level in terms of talent / skill.

Pretty much all Hendo is, is a mid range jump shooter. Doesnt have a good handle, not a true scorer, and is not a good shooter. Pretty much he does nothing great.

BTW I said arguably when I said Hans was the best PF in college. Him and Griffen both average about 21 ppg that year. Hans was def a more polished post player. Griffen was just insanely athletic which gave him a lot of easy buckets. Griffen def had/has more upside.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

So if 1.3 PPS is so great for a SG, what about John Jenkins who averages 1.5 PPS?

They are both the same size as well.

Beal's was 1.39, which would be rounded up to 1.4. You have to remember that Beal is a freshman. Barnes was a sophmore. Jenkins was, what? A junior, a senior?

Imagine how good in college Beal would be if he continued to play and become an upper classman. But we'll never know because scouts already see his nba potential.

And I'm sure Swedd covered this already, but comparing Henderson's 1.1 pps to Hansbrough's supposed 1.2 pps actually favors Henderson, because big men are SUPPOSED to have higher pps since they play closer to the basket for shots and getting fouled.

Are those supposed to be career stats? Henderson made 1.15 points per shot this season while Hansbrough had a pathetic 0.871. That's just awful for a big man.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

DashG,

How is Hansbrough a great post scorer when he puts in 0.87 points per shot? That's horrible.

And Gerald Henderson made 46% of his shoots this year as a perimeter player. There's something to be said for being a mid-range shooter. The guy has potential.

I'm sure Swedd already covered this, but you draft a player based on his nba potential and fit, not EXACTLY how he stacks up in college. At the time there were questions about Lawson because he is so tiny. He was seen as too risky for the lottery. Henderson had prototypical SG length and athleticism, and had shown improvement through his 3 years of college.

Also, Hansbrough was 23 years old as a senior. Blake Griffin was 20 that same year. It's comparing apples to oranges. A player develops so much from 20 to 23.

You put Lawson on this Bobcats team, and he'd look far worse with no one except for Henderson to throw the ball to.

[DashGlobal]

Hendo has potential? We must see a diff player.

He doesnt have a good handle.

He cant create shots for himself.

He isnt a scorer.

Terrible 3pt shooter.

He is backup SG on a good team. Nothing more nothing less.

[SWedd523]

Since the SG position is so shallow and the PF position is so deep, I'll gladly take an average-to-above average SG over an average-to-below average PF any day of the week.


Also Dash, you would consider Eric Gordon to be a good shooter right?

[DashGlobal]

Since the SG position is so shallow and the PF position is so deep, I'll gladly take an average-to-above average SG over an average-to-below average PF any day of the week.


Also Dash, you would consider Eric Gordon to be a good shooter right?

No one in their right mind would have said Hans was a "below average" PF entering the draft.

The 2009 draft really sucked outside of the top 10 picks (excluding pg's)

We should have drafted Wayne Ellington over Henderson. Both averaged about 16ppg but Ellington was a much better shooter.

I dont know about Eric Gordon. But I consider good/great shooters to shoot 40% from 3 and 80% from the FT line.

[SWedd523]

Jesus Christmas. I'm not talking about the draft. Why in the world are you still trying to go back to the draft?

Wayne Ellington? Okay now I know you're just trolling.

[SWedd523]

I'm thinking about renaming this thread the "Should have drafted every UNC player Thread". Any objections?


If we did our drafts right, our team would look like


Ty Lawson/Quentin Thomas/Bobby Frasor
Wayne Ellington/Rashad McCants/Wes Miller
Marvin Williams/Marcus Ginyard/Jackie Manuel
Tyler Hansbrough/Sean May/Jawad Williams
Ed Davis/Deon Thompson/Byron Sanders

[DashGlobal]

Jesus Christmas. I'm not talking about the draft. Why in the world are you still trying to go back to the draft?

Wayne Ellington? Okay now I know you're just trolling.

Um this whole thread is based off the premise of who we should have DRAFTED.

Lets recap.

We should have drafted Klay Thompson.

We shouldnt have drafted Henderson.

Anyone that watched the ACC closely knew that Wayne was a better SG than Henderson.

Wayne averaged the same amount of points on a much more talented team and shot the ball ALOT better than Henderson.

GTFO

[SWedd523]

Um this whole thread is based off the premise of who we should have DRAFTED.

Lets recap.

We should have drafted Klay Thompson.

We shouldnt have drafted Henderson.

Anyone that watched the ACC closely knew that Wayne was a better SG than Henderson.

Wayne averaged the same amount of points on a much more talented team and shot the ball ALOT better than Henderson.

GTFO
And yet, the two guys you keep saying we should have drafted (Hansbrough and Ellington) are worse players than Henderson. We made the right choice. Simple as that.

And Klay is a no defense playing bum who didn't play well until that team was openly tanking and he had the opportunity to jack shots in a fast paced offense. Reggie Williams (that guy who sucked for us last year) averaged 15/5/3 for that team his rookie year.


You just don't like Henderson because he went to Duke and because he hulk smashed Hansbrough's face

[DashGlobal]

And yet, the two guys you keep saying we should have drafted (Hansbrough and Ellington) are worse players than Henderson. We made the right choice. Simple as that.

And Klay is a no defense playing bum who didn't play well until that team was openly tanking and he had the opportunity to jack shots in a fast paced offense. Reggie Williams (that guy who sucked for us last year) averaged 15/5/3 for that team his rookie year.


You just don't like Henderson because he went to Duke and because he hulk smashed Hansbrough's face

Hans is def not a worse player than Hendo. I dont give a fug what you say. Dude is averaging basically double digits as an afterthought in the Pacers offense playing barely 20 min a game. Given starter minutes Hans is at the least an average serviceable PF which is exactly what Hendo is, an average serviceable SG.

We dont know what Wayne can do because he simply hasnt been given a chance. I do know he is averaging 38% from 3 and over 80% from the FT line in his NBA career. Which is pretty darn good.

[adam187]

there's a reason they don't give those guys starter's minutes...

[DashGlobal]

there's a reason they don't give those guys starter's minutes...

Maybe because there is better more seasoned players in front of them....?

I like Hans and im a UNC fan but he shouldnt be starting over David West.

Henderson is lucky he plays for the worst NBA team ever. Otherwise he would never see the floor.

[SWedd523]

im a UNC fan
This is all I ever read from you, regardless of the letters you use.

[Bosnian-Bobcats-Fan]

i'd take hendo over hansbrough any day of the week

[Toocool]

We shouldnt have drafted Henderson.

Anyone that watched the ACC closely knew that Wayne was a better SG than Henderson.

Wayne averaged the same amount of points on a much more talented team and shot the ball ALOT better than Henderson.

GTFO

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
Shouldn't have drafted Hendo?
Cmon bro, lets see who was picked AFTER Hendo (around the 12-17 pick)

13. Psycho T
14. Earl Clark
15. Austin Daye
16. James Johnson
17. Jrue Holiday

Of those 5, only Psycho T and Jrue have arguably had a good career thus far. Earl Clark has been pretty much unseen, Daye is up and down and JJ is inconsistent. During the 09 period, we had several SGs. Hendo, Bell, Flip, Graham (fml), hughes (fml again). There was no real 'successor' to Bell, but LB saw Hendo and loved him cos of his willingness to play defense.

Yeah, Psycho T is good but I don't regret not drafting him. There were questions about whether his game in college would translate to the NBA. Hendo was a clear fit transition from college to NBA.

Thing with Ellington was his inability to create his own shot. He needed an offense to call plays for him to be able to score, otherwise he struggled in isolation scoring. Hendo showed he could create his shot, and his showing it in the NBA as well.

[DashGlobal]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Yeah, Psycho T is good but I don't regret not drafting him. There were questions about whether his game in college would translate to the NBA. Hendo was a clear fit transition from college to NBA.

Thing with Ellington was his inability to create his own shot. He needed an offense to call plays for him to be able to score, otherwise he struggled in isolation scoring. Hendo showed he could create his shot, and his showing it in the NBA as well.

Ellington was able to create his shot just fine. He just didnt do it as much, because frankly he didnt need to. Had a silky smooth game and his pull up jumpers were wet. To his credit he did show more of his abilities his last year at Carolina. The only question marks / concern about Ellington was that he wasnt very athletic. Ellington has decent athleticism, certainly isnt JJ Redick esq. The only reason Hendo went in the first round was due to his athleticism and being the focal point in the Dook offense his last year. Ellington was a lot more polished player than Henderson coming into the draft. Hendo didnt have a good handle, and wasnt a good shooter. Hendo has added a decent pull up mid range jumper since being in the pros but he still has the range of a 3 year old girl. Had Hendo went to the T Wolves he would have NEVER seen the floor. Put Wayne on the Bobcats and we would be the starter an average 15ppg esp on such a terrible team.

Now thinking about it Ellington had a nice cross over in college and his handle was better than Hendo's. His cross over step back jumper was un-guardable. He also finished well and had a nack for making some crazy circus layups. The notion that he cant create his own shot is just bogus.

To be honest I dont even think Dook fans would have claimed Henderson was better than Ellington lol

I think people are forgetting he was the 2009 NCAA Tournament Most Outstanding Player and played on a stacked UNC squad.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YszIA_4kIZA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcPNeSjrNqQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rawgyKiVT80

[SWedd523]

I agree with Dash. You see how good Ellington has been in the NBA? We really missed the boat on that one

[DashGlobal]

I agree with Dash. You see how good Ellington has been in the NBA? We really missed the boat on that one

lol we havent seen what Ellington can do. unless i missed a season where he started and got 30 minutes a game like our boy Hendo.

your argument holds no merit at this point in time.

Ellington was the better player going into the draft and still is. Only difference is Hendo was on a team with zero decent SG's and got all the minutes on a terrible team.

[SWedd523]

lol we havent seen what Ellington can do. unless i missed a season where he started and got 30 minutes a game like our boy Hendo.

your argument holds no merit at this point in time.

Ellington was the better player going into the draft and still is. Only difference is Hendo was on a team with zero decent SG's and got all the minutes on a terrible team.

Ellington plays on a team starving for a SG. Yet Ellington has done absolutely nothing to lay claim to that job. He has averaged 8.8 points a game when he gets the starting job. Talk about taking advantage of an opportunity! I gotta say, you got me there. We've absolutely seen what Ellington can do. He's averaged nearly 20 minutes per game in his career. In that time, he's put up such staggering numbers as 6.5 points, 1.9 rebounds, and 0.9 assists.

No argument holds any merit at any point in time...... if it disagrees with yours.

I see your point about Ellington being better than Hendo going into the draft. In fact, Ellington was so much better than he was drafted 28th when Hendo only went 12th.

Besides, teams don't draft players based on what they project to be in the NBA, right? I mean, Mr. Cousy Award Kemba Walker was way better than Kyrie going into the draft. That turned out well.

[DashGlobal]

Ellington plays on a team starving for a SG. Yet Ellington has done absolutely nothing to lay claim to that job. He has averaged 8.8 points a game when he gets the starting job. Talk about taking advantage of an opportunity! I gotta say, you got me there. We've absolutely seen what Ellington can do. He's averaged nearly 20 minutes per game in his career. In that time, he's put up such staggering numbers as 6.5 points, 1.9 rebounds, and 0.9 assists.

No argument holds any merit at any point in time...... if it disagrees with yours.

I see your point about Ellington being better than Hendo going into the draft. In fact, Ellington was so much better than he was drafted 28th when Hendo only went 12th.

Besides, teams don't draft players based on what they project to be in the NBA, right? I mean, Mr. Cousy Award Kemba Walker was way better than Kyrie going into the draft. That turned out well.

BS.

Starting a game or two is not starting.

Wayne averaged MORE points than Henderson his first two years in the league.

The only reason for last year big turn around for Hendo was due to him getting 30mpg and being the number one option on the NBA's all time worst team EVER.

Wayne has a better handle than Hendo.

Wayne can create his shot better than Hendo.

Wayne has a much better jump shot.

The only advantage Hendo has over Ellington is him being more athletic. And that makes him a better player?? GTFO

[dnbman]

Wayne averaged MORE points than Henderson his first two years in the league.

The only reason for last year big turn around for Hendo was due to him getting 30mpg and being the number one option on the NBA's all time worst team EVER.

I don't know about all the better handles and all that stuff. I'm sure there are guys in the And1 league that are better shooters and have much better handles.

But I do know that Ellington only bested Henderson their rookie seasons, when Henderson only played 43 games and averaged 8 minutes and played behind two great players.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4617 Hendo
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4633 Ellington

For whatever Ellington has over Hendo, he hasn't translated that well. Hendo has been a much more efficient shooter, which hardly means he's getting more points just by playing on a bad team. If Ellington got the same number of minutes, he'd be averaging about 9 ppg.

While Ellington may need some type of break to show what he can do, he's shown very little in 20 minutes a game over three years.

While Ellington might be more desirable as a three point shooter, there really isn't much of a contest over who the better player has been.

[SWedd523]

I don't know about all the better handles and all that stuff. I'm sure there are guys in the And1 league that are better shooters and have much better handles.

But I do know that Ellington only bested Henderson their rookie seasons, when Henderson only played 43 games and averaged 8 minutes and played behind two great players.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4617 Hendo
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4633 Ellington

For whatever Ellington has over Hendo, he hasn't translated that well. Hendo has been a much more efficient shooter, which hardly means he's getting more points just by playing on a bad team. If Ellington got the same number of minutes, he'd be averaging about 9 ppg.

While Ellington may need some type of break to show what he can do, he's shown very little in 20 minutes a game over three years.

While Ellington might be more desirable as a three point shooter, there really isn't much of a contest over who the better player has been.
He went to UNC. That's all that matters to Dash.



Wayne can't get the starting job over the horribly horrible Wesley Johnson. On a team that desperately needs a SG. But it's only because he hasn't gotten a chance.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg192/scaled.php?server=192&filename=drevil.jpg&res=landing

[Plowright]

Dash you really rub me up the wrong way with some of your outlandish claims!!! I have had to stop posting, as I realize it doesn't matter what I say you will always be right and I will be wrong. You really are a stubborn guy, your NOT the king of the draft. Arrogance is something I can't take, so it is from this moment that I will never ever post to you again. for the record


WWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW you must be the ONLY person in the world who thinkg Wayne Ellington is better than Hendo. Wayne Ellington probably knows he isnt as good as him. So what if Wayne is a good shooter!? The NBA is not always about shooting, Klay Thompson, Ellington, Lillard. These are all your homers and yes they can shoot but WOW the NBA is about defence, BBIQ, attitude and so much more you cannot just make the argument that Wayne can handle and shoot so hes a better player. DO YOU WEAR ****** BLINDERS OR SOMETHING!?

[DashGlobal]

The NBA is about defense?!? lmao

The pros dont start playing D till the playoffs.

And defense for the most part is about desire and hustle.

TWolves have TWO lottery SG's/WG's on their team. Johnson and Webster. The bobcats dont even know what a lottery SG looks like! Johnson was taken 4th overall for christs sake.

The bottom line is Hendo has benifited from playing on a terrible team with nothing but NBA journeymen at SG getting way more minutes and being the focal point of the offense. Coming into college Ellington was better than Henderson in almost every statistical category. The only thing Henderson added to his game was a mid range pull up which Ellington been had, only diff is Ellington has range out to the 3. Being more athletic and a better defender doesnt make you a better player. Ill give Henderson credit, he has atleast morphed into a good 6th man on a average - good team.

[dnbman]

The NBA is about defense?!? lmao

The pros dont start playing D till the playoffs.

And defense for the most part is about desire and hustle.

TWolves have TWO lottery SG's/WG's on their team. Johnson and Webster. The bobcats dont even know what a lottery SG looks like! Johnson was taken 4th overall for christs sake.

The bottom line is Hendo has benifited from playing on a terrible team with nothing but NBA journeymen at SG getting way more minutes and being the focal point of the offense. Coming into college Ellington was better than Henderson in almost every statistical category. The only thing Henderson added to his game was a mid range pull up which Ellington been had, only diff is Ellington has range out to the 3. Being more athletic and a better defender doesnt make you a better player. Ill give Henderson credit, he has atleast morphed into a good 6th man on a average - good team.

That still doesn't explain why Ellington has basically been crap. 20 min per game is still significant time, and he's only averaging 6 ppg on 40% shooting, which he's consistently done for 3 years. Neither Johnson nor Webster has done anything of substance in front of him to keep him on the bench.

[DashGlobal]

That still doesn't explain why Ellington has basically been crap. 20 min per game is still significant time, and he's only averaging 6 ppg on 40% shooting, which he's consistently done for 3 years. Neither Johnson nor Webster has done anything of substance in front of him to keep him on the bench.

Wayne is shooting 38% from 3 in his nba career. Thats great. If thats crap ill take that anyday.

The thing is the TWolves are 1000 X more talented than the Bobcats. The lottery WG's obviously are more gifted physically and get more minutes and burn due to potential ect. Different teams and systems can affect how a player plays and his stats greatly. Put Hendo on the TWolves and he wouldnt even get 10mpg.

[dnbman]

Wayne is shooting 38% from 3 in his nba career. Thats great. If thats crap ill take that anyday.

That's a pretty good percentage for 3 for sure. You know who else averages 38% for his career and 6.6 points? Matt Carroll.


The thing is the TWolves are 1000 X more talented than the Bobcats. The lottery WG's obviously are more gifted physically and get more minutes and burn due to potential ect. Different teams and systems can affect how a player plays and his stats greatly. Put Hendo on the TWolves and he wouldnt even get 10mpg.

Maybe, but I don't think any coach or system is going to hold back a guy that is good as you believe Ellington is. Again, the guys in front of him are averaging single digits.

[DashGlobal]

That's a pretty good percentage for 3 for sure. You know who else averages 38% for his career and 6.6 points? Matt Carroll.

You really trying to compare Matt Carroll to Wayne Ellington?!? Wayne is way more athletic and can score in other ways besides simply shooting threes. Bad comparison.




Maybe, but I don't think any coach or system is going to hold back a guy that is good as you believe Ellington is. Again, the guys in front of him are averaging single digits.

Im not saying Ellington is a real good SG. I am simply stating he is better or at the very least as good as Henderson. Who is nothing more than a 6th man on a playoff team. Wayne was better than Henderson in highschool and was better than him in college. Nothing has changed. Only difference is Hendo was put in a position to start and get 30mpg and be the focal point on the NBA's all time worse team ever.

[dnbman]

You really trying to compare Matt Carroll to Wayne Ellington?!? Wayne is way more athletic and can score in other ways besides simply shooting threes. Bad comparison.

And yet, Ellington doesn't add that much more to the game than Carroll does. Weird, huh?


Im not saying Ellington is a real good SG. I am simply stating he is better or at the very least as good as Henderson. Who is nothing more than a 6th man on a playoff team. Wayne was better than Henderson in highschool and was better than him in college. Nothing has changed. Only difference is Hendo was put in a position to start and get 30mpg and be the focal point on the NBA's all time worse team ever.

It's fine to rate specific skills of a guy. But the only thing that matters is what the guy does on the court. There are ton of guys at home watching the playoffs talking about how they're a better shooter/dribbler/passer/etc. than guys on the court. The difference is that the guys in the league have the ability to produce on the court against other NBA players.

Ellington hasn't shown anything in the NBA. I couldn't care less about their careers prior to the NBA, as that doesn't mean anything about who they are now. (Bowie better than Jordan? I don't think I have to go further with this.)

It's fine to "feel" like Ellington is better than Hendo, but you don't have any NBA evidence that he is, other than 3pt.%. And for that great percentage, he still only averages 6 points in 20 minutes per game.

The Hendo/Ellington comparison isn't just a matter of different situations. Ellington seems to bring little to the table other than three point shooting.

[Bosnian-Bobcats-Fan]

haha my man plow went off on him....

[DashGlobal]

The Hendo/Ellington comparison isn't just a matter of different situations. Ellington seems to bring little to the table other than three point shooting.

Its all about "situation" unless you can come up with ways Hendo is better than Ellington. You are HIGHLY under valuating the situation Henderson was put in last year. Ellington has simply not been given the same opportunity and never will quite frankly because outside of the Bobcats their isnt ANY team where Ellington would be the focal point of the offense.

The notion that all Ellington can do is shoot three's is just bogus. He is / has always been a better scorer than Henderson. The ONLY thing Henderson can do or does halfway well is the pull up mid range jump shot. Henderson doesnt have a good enough handle to beat his man off the dribble and doesnt have any range on his jumpshot.

I honestly dont see how anyone can view Henderson as anything but a decent 6th man on a playoff team. Im not saying Ellington is anything more than a 6th man on a playoff team also but he is as good as Henderson. Unless Henderson improves his game alot. Put Ellington on the Bobcats and make him the number 1 option and he easily averages 15ppg.

[dnbman]

Its all about "situation" unless you can come up with ways Hendo is better than Ellington.

Your original point:

We should have drafted Wayne Ellington over Henderson. Both averaged about 16ppg but Ellington was a much better shooter.

My point: Henderson is a better defender, rebounder, is more explosive, and can have a bigger impact on the the game. In similar minutes, Henderson has had better production on more efficient shooting, which you believe is Ellington's primary strength. Henderson has also improved his shooting and shown he can be deadly in the mid-range game coming off screens, which is a fairly rare commodity in these days of dunks and three pointers.

I have also seen Henderson do some pretty serious damage overall on the court, especially the last couple of games of the season, including a game against Memphis who were still jockeying for playoff position.

Ellington's best game this season was an unremarkable 17 points, 2 points more than Henderson's average. By contrast, a bunch of d-league call ups had at least one 20 point game. Henderson had a bunch of 20+ point nights, including going for 32. And he was battling injuries much of the season.

You can talk about "situations" all you want. Quality scorers don't shoot 40% from the field and get only 6 points while averaging 20 minutes. (For some perspective, Biyambo averaged over 5 in 24 minutes a game while guys basically actively avoided giving him the ball on the offensive end.) He may not have been a high priority on the offensive end, but that also means he wasn't a high priority for the defense. If was a a good scorer, he could have impacted the game more than that.

Hendo may not be much more than a sixth man on a playoff team, but Ellington is barely a sixth man on a non-playoff team.

To wrap this up for the whole thread, as you said, a guy's ability to contribute in the NBA goes far beyond one or two abilities. Henderson has shown the ability to make a variety of contributions on both ends of the court. Ellington has shown he can hit threes at a Matt Carroll-esque rate, which isn't a bad thing.

[SWedd523]

Not worth it dnb

[Bosnian-Bobcats-Fan]

ellingtons defense cant compare to hendersons....henderson is the all around better player....not just a scrub on the bench who comes in and shoots 3s

[DashGlobal]

Your original point:
To wrap this up for the whole thread, as you said, a guy's ability to contribute in the NBA goes far beyond one or two abilities. Henderson has shown the ability to make a variety of contributions on both ends of the court. Ellington has shown he can hit threes at a Matt Carroll-esque rate, which isn't a bad thing.

Ill give you Henderson is a better defender but he still aint stopping any good SG. Hendo is prob a better rebounder, although Ellington was a good rebounding guard in college. Ill give you Henderson is more athletic. But ill still attest that Ellington is a better shooter, and has a better handle which allows him to create his shot better than Henderson. Which clearly leads me to believe Ellington is a better scorer.

Do you honestly think Ellington cant average 15ppg being the Bobcats number one option? Hell he is good for 1-2 three's a game and can certainly hit those pull up mid range jump shots coming off screens that Henderson does.

I really hope he gets traded or Johnson or Webster gets injured so we can have more substance to bring to this debate.

Just look at Danny Green he is an important piece on the Spurs team and all he does is shoot threes. He has no handle / dribble. Ellington was better than Green. So lets be real here, Ellington at the very least is a good 6th man on a playoff team.

For now, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[SWedd523]

I will never understand why Dash thinks that just because player X did something in college, or was better than player Y at something in college, that it will hold true in the NBA.



Sean May was an 18/11 player his Junior year in college and pretty much had better numbers than David Lee across the board. Yet Lee is the one who just came off another 20/10 season and Sean May is... eating somewhere. Surely if David Lee could make an all-star game then Sean May should be an all-nba caliber player.

Entering the 06 draft, Morrison and Redick were coming off 28 and 27 ppg seasons, respectively. They have got to be better players than Rudy Gay (having just averaged a paltry 15.6)! Yet Morrison is... smoking weed somewhere and Redick is a role player at best while Gay is the one that anybody with a brain would take now.

How about the 08 draft? DJ Augustin had just won the Cousy Award (Nation's best PG) and was coming off a 19/6 season while that bum Russell Westbrook couldn't manage more than 12/4. Can someone tell me which one is the top 5 PG, it HAS to be DJ right? Also in the 08 draft: Beasley (26/12/2) vs. Hibbert (13/6/2)... Beasley must be a star!

Now look at the 09 draft. Jonny Flynn is a 17/7 player for Syracuse and Jrue Holiday was a measly 9/4 for UCLA. Guess which one is looking like a bright young star while the other has already played for three teams.

2011 Kemba was 24/5/5 and Kyrie was 17/4/3. Cleveland definitely made a mistake not picking Kemba.




And I love the logical fallacy of "Ellington was better than Green. So let's be real here, Ellington at the very least is a good 6th man on a playoff team."


Poor guy

[DashGlobal]

I will never understand why Dash thinks that just because player X did something in college, or was better than player Y at something in college, that it will hold true in the NBA.

I dont think that. You have to take everything into consideration.


Sean May was an 18/11 player his Junior year in college and pretty much had better numbers than David Lee across the board. Yet Lee is the one who just came off another 20/10 season and Sean May is... eating somewhere. Surely if David Lee could make an all-star game then Sean May should be an all-nba caliber player.

Didnt Sean May have injury problems that hindered his NBA career? Non the less May was undersized and not very athletic. A risky pick.


Entering the 06 draft, Morrison and Redick were coming off 28 and 27 ppg seasons, respectively. They have got to be better players than Rudy Gay (having just averaged a paltry 15.6)! Yet Morrison is... smoking weed somewhere and Redick is a role player at best while Gay is the one that anybody with a brain would take now.

Reddick was a one trick pony and had the athletic ability of a 3 yr old girl and Morrison didnt have any handle and was not athletic at all either. Although Morrison was very crafty offensive player. Once again he was a high risk / reward player. Gay was the safer pick, but he isnt an all world player. We threw to the fences with the Morrison pick hoping be would Larry Bird lite and we missed.


How about the 08 draft? DJ Augustin had just won the Cousy Award (Nation's best PG) and was coming off a 19/6 season while that bum Russell Westbrook couldn't manage more than 12/4. Can someone tell me which one is the top 5 PG, it HAS to be DJ right? Also in the 08 draft: Beasley (26/12/2) vs. Hibbert (13/6/2)... Beasley must be a star!

DJ was undersized. Westbrook was a gamble that paid off for OKC. DJ was the safer pick there as he is a solid PG (nothing elite or great). Westbrook could have easily been a bust.



2011 Kemba was 24/5/5 and Kyrie was 17/4/3. Cleveland definitely made a mistake not picking Kemba.


Kyrie was bigger and more efficient scorer if my memory serves me right.

As I have pointed out. You shouldnt draft off "stats" alone. You have to take everything into consideration. Skill set, size, college production, athletic ability, ect.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Dash, use your logic with Ellington/Henderson then.

Henderson is the one who had NBA length and athleticism, not Ellington. Yeah, Ellington could shoot better from distance in college, but like you yourself just said, everything has to be taken into consideration.

Yet you insist we should have taken Ellington over Henderson.

[DashGlobal]

Dash, use your logic with Ellington/Henderson then.

Henderson is the one who had NBA length and athleticism, not Ellington. Yeah, Ellington could shoot better from distance in college, but like you yourself just said, everything has to be taken into consideration.

Yet you insist we should have taken Ellington over Henderson.

Henderson is at most 1 inch taller than Ellington. He certainly is more athletic than Ellington.

The reason why I would have rated Ellington over Henderson is because Ellington was vastly more skilled in every facet of the game offensively.

Its not like we are talking about JJ Redick athleticism here. Ellington may not be the most athletic guard but he certainly has average athletic ability.

Im just not gonna rate a guy better than another guy simply because he is alil more athletic esp when the other guy is way more polished offensively.

Henderson was not a good shooter.

Henderson did not have a good handle which made it difficult for him to create shots for himself.

Im not looking at any one thing when I compare Ellington to Henderson.

Henderson has improved since arriving to the league as he now has a respectable mid range jump shot.

But like I mentioned early, Ellington been had a nice mid range game to also go along with his great 3pt shooting.

[dnbman]

http://c344522.r22.cf0.rackcdn.com/65df4d43-4d91-4e4d-99ef-d3fb6e9cd67b.jpg

[tdbruton]

Dash global. I would like to know at what point will you concede that Wayne Ellington is just really not that good. Like.... He's the guy you draft in the 2nd round on 2k12 and sign because you need a 12th player to start the next season in association. But you give him 0 minutes in the rotation. He's not bad at basketball in general as I'm sure he would beat me in 1 on 1, he's just not good when compared to contributing nba 2 guards

[DashGlobal]

Dash global. I would like to know at what point will you concede that Wayne Ellington is just really not that good. Like.... He's the guy you draft in the 2nd round on 2k12 and sign because you need a 12th player to start the next season in association. But you give him 0 minutes in the rotation. He's not bad at basketball in general as I'm sure he would beat me in 1 on 1, he's just not good when compared to contributing nba 2 guards

I dont see any way I will concede Henderson is better than Ellington.

I guess if Ellington gets his chance and starts for a year and doesnt average about 15ppg or if Henderson improves alot over the next year or so.

I dont see neither happening. As I fully expect Ellington to average what Henderson averaged in a starting role and I cant see Henderson getting much better.

[SWedd523]

Hey Dash, which one is you?

http://imcclass.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/unc_fans_basketball.jpg

[spectre]

I guess if Ellington gets his chance and starts for a year and doesnt average about 15ppg while being the #1 option or if Henderson improves alot over the next year or so.

Fixed it for ya.


Hey Dash, which one is you?

http://imcclass.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/unc_fans_basketball.jpg

:hysterical:

It's amazing we haven't had more college homers hitting us up over here. It really is a testament, considering how strong college hoops are in the state.

We have some very good fans indeed.

[Bosnian-Bobcats-Fan]

Lolllllllllll