Where did we go wrong?

[superb1]

After reading Tom Sorenson's article (like Blogcat state, Tom is really becoming the columnist I'm hating on now), I'm actually realizing that I fear even going into this draft with a positive mindset. I have faith that Cho will make the right choice but damn the odds have been stacked against us for so long. Really, Hendo is not getting quick enough, Biz has promise but still young and raw, Kemba has not come out the gates like I thought he would.

Bobcats’ NBA draft history not picture perfect

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/06/16/3322861/bobcats-nba-draft-history-not.html#storylink=cpy

But looking at all our draft picks, could have gotten it wrong some many times, or can we choke some of it up to poor coaching, management and development. Felton and Oak are solid, I believe we could have build around them if it was not a money issue (mgmt), Ammo (coaching and development), May was just a poor choice.

Then Jared Dudley made the top 100 list. I think we draft good and decent players, maybe the problem is not who we draft, but how we use them.

Maybe I'm wrong, idk

[Let's Go Cats 218]

We went wrong letting go of Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson. Say what you will about their salaries, but they were a solid foundation that we could have built upon. We were in the playoffs, the fanbase was excited, and then we dismantled the team. They were 2 guys that legitimately LOVED being in Charlotte and wanted to stay here. How often can you say that?? We have had absolutely terrible drafts, which also obviously hurts us. In my opinion, letting go of Gerald is quite possibly something we'll never fully recover from unless we get incredibly lucky in the draft.

[ND22]

We went wrong letting go of Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson. Say what you will about their salaries, but they were a solid foundation that we could have built upon. We were in the playoffs, the fanbase was excited, and then we dismantled the team. They were 2 guys that legitimately LOVED being in Charlotte and wanted to stay here. How often can you say that?? We have had absolutely terrible drafts, which also obviously hurts us. In my opinion, letting go of Gerald is quite possibly something we'll never fully recover from unless we get incredibly lucky in the draft.

I won't argue the two of them were strong players that wanted to be here, but you saw how the team played after losing Felton and trading away Chandler. Larry Brown lost the team and Paul Silas could only do so much. That team wasn't getting any better. We went "wrong" when we built that team, knowing full well it meant instant success but with little chance of long term success. I have no qualms about that however because we made the playoffs and we were desperate to do that. The hard truth is trading Wallace and Jackson had to be done, and their value wasn't getting any bigger.

Consider the two of them still on this team. We are a 30 win team at best, and looking at another late lottery pick. We have no Kemba, no Biyombo; our only long term piece is Henderson. What value would we get for Wallace? Less than what Portland gave us. And Jackson? Its likely he would have given up on the team (look what he did in Milwaukee in less than a season). Our long term outlook would be more of the same; mediocrity. I accepted Cho's blow it all up movement because 8 years of poor decisions and draft picks led us to where we are, and the best way for us to become a contender is to start over.

[dnbman]

We went wrong letting go of Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson. Say what you will about their salaries, but they were a solid foundation that we could have built upon. We were in the playoffs, the fanbase was excited, and then we dismantled the team. They were 2 guys that legitimately LOVED being in Charlotte and wanted to stay here. How often can you say that?? We have had absolutely terrible drafts, which also obviously hurts us. In my opinion, letting go of Gerald is quite possibly something we'll never fully recover from unless we get incredibly lucky in the draft.

I love Gerald Wallace. That being said, it would have been very difficult to build a legit contender with that core. I don't think the problem was letting go of those guys. I think the problem was we settled for not so great trades in attempts to get incrementally better, while digging ourselves deep holes in terms of giving up assets and taking on contract. It created a downward spiral of needing to get better, but not having good draft picks, cap space, or desirable players to trade in order to get better.

Best part of all of that: it's behind us. Let's think about the future.

[Plowright]

We have never had a star, simple as that. Someone who can carry the team, be a face of the franchise. Sure GW was our guy, but if were honest that was by default. We have never had "that" guy

[enigmaboy89]

I do feel that letting go Wallace & Jackson was a mistake. Both of these players were very dedicated to the organization, as they played hard each game. Their salaries were high, but at least they played well and deserved what they got paid. Unlike players like Tyrus Thomas & Diop who have high salaries but no skills to back up how much they get paid.

[Deadshot]

Just curious, but what were you expecting to get out of Kemba? Looking at things objectively, he was a small (by NBA standards) scoring guard who had to adapt to playing pro ball (while coming off the bench behind an experienced young PG). I think he's put in a tough spot because Charlotte lacks a clear #1 option and people were expecting him to come in and be the Bobcats version of Cam Newton.

[Hormel]

Just curious, but what were you expecting to get out of Kemba? Looking at things objectively, he was a small (by NBA standards) scoring guard who had to adapt to playing pro ball (while coming off the bench behind an experienced young PG). I think he's put in a tough spot because Charlotte lacks a clear #1 option and people were expecting him to come in and be the Bobcats version of Cam Newton.
I'm happy with a high energy bench player

As for the topic, we have never had a star NBA player. to win in this league you need at least 1 star, most of the time you need 3, and we have yet to have 1

[superb1]

We went wrong letting go of Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson. Say what you will about their salaries, but they were a solid foundation that we could have built upon. We were in the playoffs, the fanbase was excited, and then we dismantled the team. They were 2 guys that legitimately LOVED being in Charlotte and wanted to stay here. How often can you say that?? We have had absolutely terrible drafts, which also obviously hurts us. In my opinion, letting go of Gerald is quite possibly something we'll never fully recover from unless we get incredibly lucky in the draft.

Actually I was referring to drafting players that we can build around, whether with Capt Jax and Wallace or without them. Why did we draft players that did not workout.

[JGib23]

David Stern chose Bob Johnson over Belkin/Bird/Carr because Bob had experience building a TV network and pitched a great idea named CSET. All downhill from that point.

[spectre]

David Stern chose Bob Johnson over Belkin/Bird/Carr because Bob had experience building a TV network and pitched a great idea named CSET. All downhill from that point.

He chose Johnson because he could write a check where the 3some had to gather investors. After Shinn they put a lot of weight on who actually had the money.

Making Bernie Bickerstaff GM/coach vs. just coach.

[JGib23]

Ok, he wrote a check by himself. AWESOME!

Then he made bad choices at almost every opportunity. He lost millions of dollars and sold to a guy that had to have multiple backers (just like Belkin, Bird, Carr).

We are fans of the worst run franchises in the history of the NBA, while no one knows for sure how it would have turned out with the other group but, it's hard to imagine it going any worse.

I agree the Bernie GM/coach deal was a terrible decision.

I don't want to turn this into a BoJo debate.

He came, he failed, he left.

Hopefully we have had our run of bad luck and it's nothing but uphill from here.

[Veteran_Picksetter]

Drafting too many physically-limited "college all-stars" in the first 5 years, instead of true NBA bodies/athletes. Drafting May and Felton just because they were champions/"winners"....or possibly because they were UNC guys who could increase ticket sales....

Also add Morrison and May's injury woes. They had some skills but physical/athletic limitations. Early knee problems were the last thing they needed.

[spectre]

Ok, he wrote a check by himself. AWESOME!

Then he made bad choices at almost every opportunity. He lost millions of dollars and sold to a guy that had to have multiple backers (just like Belkin, Bird, Carr).

We are fans of the worst run franchises in the history of the NBA, while no one knows for sure how it would have turned out with the other group but, it's hard to imagine it going any worse.

I agree the Bernie GM/coach deal was a terrible decision.

I don't want to turn this into a BoJo debate.

He came, he failed, he left.

Hopefully we have had our run of bad luck and it's nothing but uphill from here.

Since the expansion fee is split between the current owners being able to write a check would be pretty important, no?

I thought Jordan bought most of Johnson's majority shares by himself and then later sold off %? Either way, Jordan was a special case as Stern had been trying to get him into ownership for years.

Anyone remember the little fiasco Belkin caused in ATL and that ownership group being in the courts for years with the other owners trying to get Belkin out?

[ziggy]

My thoughts

* taking Morrison over Rudy Gay
* Allowing LB so much control over personnel decisions during his stint as coach

[superb1]

Drafting too many physically-limited "college all-stars" in the first 5 years, instead of true NBA bodies/athletes. Drafting May and Felton just because they were champions/"winners"....or possibly because they were UNC guys who could increase ticket sales....

Also add Morrison and May's injury woes. They had some skills but physical/athletic limitations. Early knee problems were the last thing they needed.

I forgot about that, drafting a gimmick, UNC champions, looks good at first but devastating in the long run.


My thoughts

* taking Morrison over Rudy Gay
* Allowing LB so much control over personnel decisions during his stint as coach

Yet no one has owned up to drafting Ammo, Higgins recently said MJ didn't but others say different.


Ok, he wrote a check by himself. AWESOME!

Then he made bad choices at almost every opportunity. He lost millions of dollars and sold to a guy that had to have multiple backers (just like Belkin, Bird, Carr).

We are fans of the worst run franchises in the history of the NBA, while no one knows for sure how it would have turned out with the other group but, it's hard to imagine it going any worse.

I agree the Bernie GM/coach deal was a terrible decision.

I don't want to turn this into a BoJo debate.

He came, he failed, he left.

Hopefully we have had our run of bad luck and it's nothing but uphill from here.

But maybe that is the first of personnel mistakes

[Brad]

It was several things from the beginning. The poor distribution and limited programming for CSET was its demise. It wasn't that it wasn't a good idea -- it was, but they literally had two shows that they ran over and over and over, and it was only available to a very small segment of the population. Nobody could see the Bobcats play early on.

The personell issues started with Bickerstaff and continued into the expansion draft, where the decision was made to be more conscious of the salary cap than to get good players. there were some decent players available, they just didn't want them. I think their plan then was similar to now; suck for a few seasons, get draft picks and build. The problem -- as we all know -- was that they selected the wrong guys.

They had opportunities to trade up and take Jameer Nelson in the first draft and totally bungled that. They had opportunities to trade up in the next draft to take either Williams or Paul, and bungled that. They then had the third overall pick and selected Morrison, who was athletically limited and a poor defender.

then they changed the whole philosophy and started taking on bad contracts in effort to get better quickly. The problem is that they traded for poor players at a large salary. They gave Okafor more than they should have; they gave Carroll more than they should have, trading for Diaw and Bell. Trading for Diaw.

Then they went and actually made some decent moves; getting Jackson and Chandler, making the playoffs in just one season, but then they followed it up with more poor moves; trading for Thomas, getting Dampier and completely craping the bed in that situation.

They had to clear the slate and start fresh. Trading Wallace, Jackson for picks and cap space. Getting Maggette, who may or may not be on this team in a few months. They are, in many ways, even worse off than they were heading into their inaugural season, but there are similarities; There are some fringe decent players on the roster in Augustin, Walker, Henderson, Biyombo and Mullens.

The question is, are they through with making boneheaded decisions for the short term?

[DY_nasty]

I never had an issue with Bernie.

And I still feel that the JRich trade was the biggest issue.

Jackson and Wallace... it wasn't about the salaries. Felton, Jackson, Wallace - all of those guys look well past their best days. It was time to start over.

[superb1]

It was several things from the beginning. The poor distribution and limited programming for CSET was its demise. It wasn't that it wasn't a good idea -- it was, but they literally had two shows that they ran over and over and over, and it was only available to a very small segment of the population. Nobody could see the Bobcats play early on.

The personell issues started with Bickerstaff and continued into the expansion draft, where the decision was made to be more conscious of the salary cap than to get good players. there were some decent players available, they just didn't want them. I think their plan then was similar to now; suck for a few seasons, get draft picks and build. The problem -- as we all know -- was that they selected the wrong guys.

They had opportunities to trade up and take Jameer Nelson in the first draft and totally bungled that. They had opportunities to trade up in the next draft to take either Williams or Paul, and bungled that. They then had the third overall pick and selected Morrison, who was athletically limited and a poor defender.

then they changed the whole philosophy and started taking on bad contracts in effort to get better quickly. The problem is that they traded for poor players at a large salary. They gave Okafor more than they should have; they gave Carroll more than they should have, trading for Diaw and Bell. Trading for Diaw.

Then they went and actually made some decent moves; getting Jackson and Chandler, making the playoffs in just one season, but then they followed it up with more poor moves; trading for Thomas, getting Dampier and completely craping the bed in that situation.

They had to clear the slate and start fresh. Trading Wallace, Jackson for picks and cap space. Getting Maggette, who may or may not be on this team in a few months. They are, in many ways, even worse off than they were heading into their inaugural season, but there are similarities; There are some fringe decent players on the roster in Augustin, Walker, Henderson, Biyombo and Mullens.

The question is, are they through with making boneheaded decisions for the short term?

This is what I'm talking about, who was responsible for the draft picks and the decisions made. Okafor was a no brainer sort of. But we did paid him too much. Maybe if we got Nelson, there would have been less need for Felton and we probably would have passed on May too. There were players who have excelled that we passed on or did not scout well. I think if we used the expansion draft for just find that pearl (Wallace) and scouted well and build thru the draft correctly, bonehead decisions would have not been made.

For example, drafted Okafor and trade up to get Nelson, then drafted Monte Ellis and David Lee maybe, idk, but way better than where we ended up at.
but hindsight is a b*tch.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

For some reason I always remember the Hermann For Nazr trade that seemed to start a downhill slope of us taking awful contracts which got us stuck in mediocrity.

[ammofan]

Everything.

[JGib23]

http://www.insidehoops.com/bobcats-expansion-draft.shtml

Just for shits and giggles. Here is where it started at what was available.

[Nata Fresh]

If your answer is anything other than letting Higgins/ Larry Brown decide the roster....it's most likely wrong....

[Mustachio]

I kind of reject that we actually have gone that wrong. Sure our roster isn't the best in the league, and we now have by percentage the worst NBA season ever under our name... but I think we are pretty much in line with every other expansion franchise in the last 30 years. For this discussion I am only going back to the Heat Hornets expansion in '88, because before then the NBA was a different game and place I think.

Expansion franchises aren't set up to win early. The draft lottery was set up in 1985 and the 7 teams the league has brought in since then have had to deal with it, mostly unsuccessfully. Expansion teams just don't win a lot early, period. Its only really happened once in the NBA and that was Orlando thanks to a number one pick and a guy named Shaq. Let's look at the numbers. I'm going to list the last 7 expansion teams and their records through their first 8 years.

Team Record Win% Playoff app.
Miami Heat - 247-656 .377% 3
Charlotte Hornets - 272-656 .415% 2
Minn Timberwolves -192-656 .293% 1
Orlando Magic -323-656 .492% 4
Memphis Grizzlies -152-624 .244% 0
Toronto Raptors -248-624 .397% 3
Charlotte Bobcats -229-640 .358% 1

As you can see, Charlotte is about the average. The Magic got lucky and drafted a sure fire Hall of Famer, game changing, franchise altering Center. So their numbers are kind of skewed, before Shaq they were on pace to be exactly like every other expansion team on the list. The Wolves and Grizzlies are by far the two worst expansion teams, and now both fan bases have completely forgotten about their horrible starts. Charlotte comes in 3rd but very close to the Raptors, Heat and Hornets. I would consider that about par for course.

To answer your question, where did we go wrong with draft picks... again I'm not so sure we did. Unless you draft a sure fire Hall of Famer, odds are that you weren't doing much winning. The Bobcats have never been in the "sure fire HOF player" situation so go ahead and rule that out. We've been unlucky on a couple lottery ball bounces, and really never had a chance to draft a game changer. So for their particular situations I think the Bobcats did the right thing for the franchise in almost every draft. Emeka was obviously the only choice, and the best one. Ray turned out ok, played a while for us at an above average clip. Sean busted, but you cannot go back and say that we should have traded up for Paul/Deron. Thats hindsight and its totally useless. Going back to that year, we need all the help we could get, drafting two instead of one was the right call as we didn't know that Paul/Deron would end up a huge success. Morrison was a great college scorer that got it done at that level despite lacking athleticism. He was a huge name that year and it made sense for the Bobcats to go after him drafting where they did. Even today I (and alot of people here) would rather take the chance on a potential star than get Rudy Gay. The problem isn't just the players either. we are and expansion franchise and its tough even for good players to come into an organization that just isn't set up to win.

I think another main problem is that we are the first expansion franchise to grow up completely in the information age. No other franchise in major American sports has had the internet at its fingertips for the entire existence. Everything today is blown up and everything has to be immediately successful or its labelled a failure. Its the story of Lebron James, without the talent. Our every move has been made in the WIN NOW internet age. Thats not an excuse. We haven't been a model franchise. But I think a lot of the pessimism and a lot of the doom is magnified unlike any other team can say for its entire existence. And because we don't have any positive history, its even more magnified. Add onto that this is the second expansion team in this city and people are less patient because they dealt with the bad once. That magnifies it more.

Point is, we aren't really as epically horrible as it sometimes seems. And for the first time (and around the same time a lot of expansion teams start improving) we are set up to grow and develop players, rather than plug guys in and try to impress right away.

[TheBeagle]

More importanly, where did we go right? Hiring Rich Cho.

[JGib23]

Mustachio- great glass half full outlook.

My issues with comparing us vs. Other expansion teams. We had less restrictive salary cap rules, had no competition for expansion draft talent, no restriction on draft picks after season one ( where we were awarded pick 4- other teams were awarded later picks).

After 8 seasons we are the worst team in the history of the NBA and have the worst roster in the NBA, with the way we are headed, you could very well look at our team in 2 seasons and we could be the worst first decade of any expansion team.

If we were trending up, I could share some of your optimism but, as it is I have a truckload of hope that we can turn it around and a teaspoon full of confidence.

[Bucko]

I think hiring Sam Vincent was probably where it all went wrong. Seemed like an odd move at the time, and when it turned into the disaster everyone thought it would be, it led to letting Larry Brown have too much say in what we were doing. He got us to the playoffs, but really screwed us long term. Had we been more patient and hired a better choice than Sam, we probably would be better off today than we are now.

[JGib23]

The last game of the first season still haunts me.

For those that don't remember, we were playing the Pistons at home. the Pistons had already wrapped up home court for the playoffs and rested all their starters. We were 1 game behind New Orleans in wins for the season and New Orleans had finished their season the night before.... Meaning if we lost, we would have picked ahead of them.

We played our best players, won the game and tied New Orleans which resulted in a coin flip.. We lost, New Orleans picked Chris Paul 4th, we take Raymond Felton 5th.....

Winning that meaningless game against the bench scrubs of Detroit cost the team a local star that will most likely end up in the Hall of Fame.

[superb1]

mod note: don't quote massive amounts of text for one sentence responses.

thanks, it was a good read