Second Semester NBA report cards

[Mustachio]

from espn.com daily dime.
SOUTHEAST

Wizards: Plenty of thrills, but ... 'til 'Tawn's return, even Agent Zero and Caron can't produce those 110-a-night pointfests. Grade: B-plus

Magic: They once led the conference, but now it's not clear that this odd collection can avoid the lottery -- which has been a disaster for Orlando the past two years. Grade: B-minus

Heat: D-Wade's giving his all, but the rest of these under-.500 jokers are once again making a mockery of the regular season . . . and apparently getting away with it. Grade: C-minus

Hawks: The Bouncing Baby Hawks have put together enough highlights to serve the legacy of Dominque and Spud Webb well. It's not clear they have a team, though. Grade: C

Bobcats: Some nice pieces and nice wins for MJ's squad, but Morrison's catastrophic season has undone a lot of good work by Okafor, Wallace, May and Carroll. Grade: C-minus

[Mustachio]

first of all... its kinda hard to take anyone serious when he calls it MJ's team, and mentions sean may as one of the 4 best contributors this season.


while MJ does have ownership, he is rarely there and has yet to make his stamp on this team.
and sean may has been healthy for approx. 14 games this year. what good work could adam undo of sean mays???

adam morrison isnt the rookie of the year anymore, but he sure isnt the root of all our problems.

Just a little food for thought, no need to freak out cause these guys very obviously phoned this one in. They probally havent even seen the bobcats play this year unless we were playing the lakers or cleveland.

[dav7z]

What a nasty thing to say about any player. Questing his skills and abilitys on the court. I agree Morrison is not seting the N.B.A. fire . But in no way is he taking away from the other players. The person who did that must be dumb as hell. And not smart enough to put blame where it should be put. THATS COACHING

[Mustachio]

exactly... its pretty hard to get any good numbers and to acclimate yourself to the nba game when your coach is giving you erratic minutes and benching you when you catch fire.

some nights he has 12 minutes, one night he had 39

theres just no way for a player of adams competitive fire to stay hot or in a game with that kind of inconsistency.


and ps ... i love ryan hollins... i think he should be at least a 3 star guy. haha

[DaFlameking]

a C- is certainly not bad. Just need to get our bench more involved so they can play better when in times of need. After the all star break, hopefully means more minutes for Adam Morrison and certainly Ryan Hollins and Walter Hermann. We need to build around those 3 bench players to make them a threat later on.

[Slam]

Drafting Ammo has set this team back years and is going to be very, very hard to recover from.

[ziggy]

Drafting Ammo has set this team back years and is going to be very, very hard to recover from.
Thats a stretch. Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy haven't shown me anything to this point to make me believe that drafting Ammo was a drastic mistake. The only real gripe about Adam up to this point is that his shot isn't falling... Emeka didn't shoot great his first 2 years in the league and he was taking all of his shots in the paint.

If there was a draft pick that set this franchise back years, it was passing on Gerald Green and drafting Sean May.

[Slam]

Drafting Ammo has set this team back years and is going to be very, very hard to recover from.
Thats a stretch. Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy haven't shown me anything to this point to make me believe that drafting Ammo was a drastic mistake. The only real gripe about Adam up to this point is that his shot isn't falling... Emeka didn't shoot great his first 2 years in the league and he was taking all of his shots in the paint.

If there was a draft pick that set this franchise back years, it was passing on Gerald Green and drafting Sean May.


1. We drafted Ammo - who plays the same position as one of our best players.

2. We had a gaping hole that could have been addressed by drafting Roy, Foyle or Gay. Instead after 3 years and 4 lotto picks (3 in the top 5) we still dont have a starting 5

3. Ammo wont get much better than he is now. Sure, some small things will improve(like shooting %), but he's pretty much tapped out in all other areas

4. This teams identity, it's heart and soul was our hustle. We were being built through the draft and based on soild, accountable defence. Ammo is the poster child for everything opposite to that.

5. In the 3 years prior we never heard any rumblings, players talking poorly about team mates, coaches questioning our motivation. When was the last time you saw Ammo sweat on the court? When was the last time you saw him bent over and blowing hard?

Don't kid yourself, if we had drafted Roy/Folye or Gay, we would be in a much better position with much more structure.

[dav7z]

Drafting Ammo has set this team back years and is going to be very, very hard to recover from.
Thats a stretch. Rudy Gay or Brandon Roy haven't shown me anything to this point to make me believe that drafting Ammo was a drastic mistake. The only real gripe about Adam up to this point is that his shot isn't falling... Emeka didn't shoot great his first 2 years in the league and he was taking all of his shots in the paint.

If there was a draft pick that set this franchise back years, it was passing on Gerald Green and drafting Sean May.
Ziggy you say picking May over Green set the franchise back years.
It seems to me May has a lot of NBA talent when healthy. Just wondering how you made that decision. Was because of Mays health or thair over all play .

[ziggy]

I made that decision based on May's health. He gave us about 26 games his rookie year, and when he comes back this season they say they won't be able to play him on the 2nd nights of back to backs. I will admit though, that when he was healthy earlier this season, he was one of the most effective players on the Bobcats. But unfortunately I think his combination of knee problems, weight problems and rumors of heavy drinking / hard partying lifestyle may keep him from reaching the level that we hoped for when we drafted him.

[Slam]

** For the record:

I 100% agree with Ziggy.

Green should have been the #13th pick of the '05 draft - especially with the amount of bigs in this years draft.

[dav7z]

Ziggy i compleatly agree with you . Based on Mays health . The amount hes played. And the so called drinking problem. [ what a waste of talent]
Green is the better player. For his sake i hope he can get his knee right . Get and or stay in shape . And stay out of the bars. The kid can play ball.

[dvdbumpus]

** For the record:

I 100% agree with Ziggy.

Green should have been the #13th pick of the '05 draft - especially with the amount of bigs in this years draft.


I agree, but we drafted May largely on the UNC base. I wish we chose green but that's tough.

[dav7z]

I have been thinking about the statements . Made by SLAM AND ZIGGY. About seting the team back for years. Nither statement makes much scence at all . 1st ill start with May . Hes just signed through 2008 at less than 2 mil per year. Harrington is getting more than that. So if one more year at less than 2 mil sets us back for years . We dont need to be a pro team.
Slam now Morrison hes making 3.8 MIL through NEXT YEAR. THATS 1 MORE YEAR 3.8 MIL . Lets just agree he suks for your sake not mine. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HES MESSED US UP FOR YEARS TO COME. Dont say draft they are ton of free agents out thair. I dont understant your statements. Please explain.

[Slam]

I have been thinking about the statements . Made by SLAM AND ZIGGY. About seting the team back for years. Nither statement makes much scence at all . 1st ill start with May . Hes just signed through 2008 at less than 2 mil per year. Harrington is getting more than that. So if one more year at less than 2 mil sets us back for years . We dont need to be a pro team.
Slam now Morrison hes making 3.8 MIL through NEXT YEAR. THATS 1 MORE YEAR 3.8 MIL . Lets just agree he suks for your sake not mine. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HES MESSED US UP FOR YEARS TO COME. Dont say draft they are ton of free agents out thair. I dont understant your statements. Please explain.


1. We drafted Ammo - who plays the same position as one of our best players.

2. We had a gaping hole that could have been addressed by drafting Roy, Foyle or Gay. Instead after 3 years and 4 lotto picks (3 in the top 5) we still dont have a starting 5

3. Ammo wont get much better than he is now. Sure, some small things will improve(like shooting %), but he's pretty much tapped out in all other areas

4. This teams identity, it's heart and soul was our hustle. We were being built through the draft and based on soild, accountable defence. Ammo is the poster child for everything opposite to that.

5. In the 3 years prior we never heard any rumblings, players talking poorly about team mates, coaches questioning our motivation. When was the last time you saw Ammo sweat on the court? When was the last time you saw him bent over and blowing hard?

Don't kid yourself, if we had drafted Roy/Folye or Gay, we would be in a much better position with much more structure.

[dav7z]

I agree with a few things you saying but you still didnt adress the question. Morrison is one guy he makes 3.8 mil for 1 more year. So please explain how him being on the team one more year affects us for years to come . DAM ITS NOT A KNICKS CONTRACT

[Mustachio]

its all ridiculous... adam hasnt set us back a minute.

we are so far under the cap it doesnt matter. financially at least. and their contracts are short.


and as far as adam not sweating... come on man thats ridiculous. point the blame where it needs to be. ive seen adam hustle quite a bit. diving for balls ...


the point remains the same. not one player youve mentioned is doing anything in this league. they offer no more hope than adam.

could it be that we are in our 3rd year as a franchise with average players and a below average coach... or is it all adams fault. come on get a grip.

[ziggy]

could it be that we are in our 3rd year as a franchise with average players and a below average coach... or is it all adams fault. come on get a grip.
I vote that its because of the "Below Average Coach" :biggrin:

[Slam]

and as far as adam not sweating... come on man thats ridiculous. point the blame where it needs to be. ive seen adam hustle quite a bit. diving for balls ...
You're kidding right?

The only time he moves fast is to get out of the way. He NEVER takes a charge. He NEVER sweats. He NEVER blows hard. He NEVER gets red cheeks.

He just doesn't push himself.

Compare him to Felts, Crash, Hammer, EO50 - even Hollins and Fabio.

Ammo puts out as little effort as possible.

Not sure where all this talk about contracts came into things?? I didn't mention what he earns once. It has nothing to do with the effect he has on our cap. It's his one dimensional game and his inability to produce.

Roy is already more of a leader than Ammo will ever be.

In 3 years time when we are still stuck with an unpreforming Ammo and Gay is taking off, tell me selecting Ammo hasn't set the franchise back.

He's a 6th man/role player at best............and we used a #3 overall pick on him!! Tell me THAT's no setting the franchise back.

It's not Ammo's fault that we drafted him so I don't blame him. I'm sure he's a really nice guy and has the best intentions of making something of himself, but if you think that drafting him over Roy, Gay or Foye was a good move and will help to progress this team long term then you have no vision.

He's set us back years and when we trade him for a warm cup of piss, you'll see why.

Could be worse - we could throw Dunleavy money at him when his rookie contract is up I guess.

[ziggy]

Roy is already more of a leader than Ammo will ever be.
Roy has to prove to me that he can stay healthy, hes already missed 20 games so far this season.

[Slam]

Roy is already more of a leader than Ammo will ever be.
Roy has to prove to me that he can stay healthy, hes already missed 20 games so far this season.


You've seen him on the court though right Zig? You've seen the way he handles himself and the poise and versitility he has?

Sure, you could say that about Roy - but then you could say the same thing about EO50 as he missed pretty much all of last year.

[ziggy]

On the court, he looks good. I agree with that. But its going to take a season or two for him to prove that he is going to be able to stay healthy. I believe that it was his foot that he had problems with in college if I remember correctly.

And as great as Emeka has been this season. Hes going to have to make it all of the way through the year without missing too many games before I believe that he'll be able to stay healthy long term... I think he will though.

[Slam]

Roy had a scope on his knee when he was at college.

Nothing ever to do with his foot.

The heel issue he had this season is a 1st

[dav7z]

Drafting Ammo has set this team back years and is going to be very, very hard to recover from.
SLAM THIS IS THE STATEMENT YOU MADE. You a smart guy and i respect you post. But Adam dont have but one year left on his contract and its for just 3.8 mil Please tell me why his contract and one year does all this to the team.

[dvdbumpus]

Roy is already more of a leader than Ammo will ever be.
Roy has to prove to me that he can stay healthy, hes already missed 20 games so far this season.


1. We didn't draft Gay because he never seemed to hustle or put it all together. Our teams identity is built on hustle, correct?

2. We didn't draft Roy because of injury history mainly. Knee injuries are tricky.

3. We didn't draft Foye because he was undersize and doesn't have the potential that Morrison does going into the draft.

Morrison - We drafted him because he has been compared to Larry Bird in style of play, HUSTLE, and ability to score anywhere.

Our teams ideals are based on defense, but every year since our inception we're allowing opponents nearly as many points per game as Washington - a definite horrible defensive team.

Keep in mind, Adam is only 22 and in his rookie year. Look at Joe Johnson. It took him 4 years to get it together. It took Rip Hamilton 3 years to get it together. It takes players a few years to get it together guys. It took Ray Allen until his 2nd year to get it together.

Players take time and progression, as with all sports. The draft was the weakest in years. We took the player with the highest upside/effort combo and we can't piss and moan about him until year 2 or 3.

Give him a damn chance guys, He's only played 51 games and you guys want to condemn him?

For the large part of the year, he's been considered a ROY front runner.

And to end this post, we should be critisizing Sean May's career because of injuries and not being able to produce due to them. He's in his 2nd year and has only played 4 more games than Adam, and hasn't done anything more to produce and contribute then Adam. Hakim Warrick, Luther Head, Gerald Green, David Lee, and others were all available but not picked.

3.8 million bucks on this team for another year? That's monopoly money. Please, any complaints about that is just ludicrous.

[Mustachio]

yea but sean may played for carolina so he gets a free pass.


your dead on.. if there was a flop on this team its may. i love what he can do sometimes when hes out there. but being out there is a problem.


as far as morrison goes man. your calling him out on his hustle and leadership. but foye, roy and gay (sounds like a crappy lawyers office) all landed in completely different situations so to compare them right now is ridiculous. Roy is being a leader because he went to a terrible franchise with nothing but problems for the last few years.

so when he actually is on the court (way less than adam) he has to be a leader. now in adams case he came to a team with several high character draft picks all with a good command of their game and all trying to gel together. its just different worlds and different coaching situations.

stupid america and their need to judge everything instantly.

[Slam]

dav7z:
Are you messing with me? I'm not sure if you are serious or have your tongue firmly planted in your cheek with your posts??? It has nothing to do with contracts or money. Read back over everything. The only person who brought up contracts was you. I don't care if Ammo is getting paid a buck and change for the rest of his life. HIM SETTING THE FRACHISE BACK HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS CONTRACT!!

Bumpus:
1. Yes - there were questions about Gay's desire, but he still has more ability and ceiling than Ammo will ever have. His style also compliments what we already have that much better and conforms to what we have been building and we wouldn't have to change everything to suit him like we do Ammo.

2. Not true. His 1 knee op 4 years ago that had him miss a few games had nothing to do with not drafting him. If that was the case we wouldn't have gone near EO50 and his back. Arn Tellem was the reason we didn't draft Roy - that and the fact that BB/Top Bob or MJ was bluffed by Ammo.

3. You're kidding right? Foye didn't have the potential of Ammo? The kid is oozing potential and is a fighter. Look at his story, at his history. Undersize you say? The NBA over the last few years has made a HUGE swing towards combo guards. It's like going back in time to the 80's when guys like Dumars, Thomas, Kerr etc all ruled the NBA. Now there are guys like Wade, Barbosa, Gordon, Head, West, Bell, Ellis, Roy, Jaric, Allen and Arena's doing the same thing.

4. Morrison compared to Larry Bird? So was Dunleavy. Ammo will never, ever hold a candle to Bird. Bird was actually a good defender - mainly because he put the effort in at that end of the floor, something that Ammo will NEVER do (hence "the" t-shirt)

5. Yes Ammo is a rookie but don't compare him to guy's like Johsnon, Allen, Rip etc. There is a HUGE difference between these guy's. It like T-Mac. He didn't explode until his 3rd or 4th year, but those guy's - even in their rookie years, actually LOOKED like they knew what they were doing. They made rookie mistakes but not the same ones over and over like Ammo does. All of those guy's weren't 1 dimensional like Ammo is either. There is a huge difference between them and him.

6. The reason Ammo was a front runner for the RoY was: A - because it was a weak class. B - because Roy missed 20 games and C - because he was given at least 10 more mins per game and was averaging at LEAST 6 more shot attempts per game. Put Roy, Foye, Gay or Bargs on our team and they would have been the run away favorite for the RoY too.

Mustachio :

foye, roy and gay (sounds like a crappy lawyers office)

That's freaking hilarious!!

[Slam]

Edit: Just want to make one thing clear -

I don't "dislike" Ammo per say. I don't like that he puts in zero effort on the defensive end, is timid and wont take or commit a hard foul, but I actually like his game. I loved watching him at Zag and think he is a talent.

I didn't think his game would transfer to the NBA well - and it hasn't. I don't think that he can anything to change that either. He is what he is.

BUT

I also don't blame him for us drafting him. When I say that Ammo has set the franchise back years what I should really say is drafting Ammo has set our franchise back years.

Like I said, it's not his fault. He just declared and was going to go to who ever drafted him. I blame BB, Top Bob, MJ or who ever it was within the organization who signed off of drafting him.

There is little doubt that the desicion had as much to do with politics as it did basketball and that choice has set us back years.

[dav7z]

SLAM a little of both. your fun to mess with and i all so like to read your post . The way you reason things out. Ill agree with you hes sat the team back ONE more year. But dam hes not a Wade , JAMES, Bryant, THATS YEARS TO COME.
Morrison is just a rookie WITH 1 more year . COME ON NOW SLAM. I know you know better than that .

[dvdbumpus]

I'd also like to clear some things up from my previous post.

1. I would have much rather had Rudy Gay personally largely based on this kid is loaded and has much more potential then any other player in the draft.

2. Okafor had loads more potential than Brandon Roy. Okafor was also a champion, leader, and would be a top 5-10 pick any year of any draft. This coming draft Roy probably would be a cusp top 10 pick. That chance on having a possible superstar big guy is worth the risk much more than an above average possibly good-great shooter with knee history. Big guys > shooters. They're also easier to replace.

3. Has our system thrived with undersized guards? Foye's story is a truely amazing story yes, but AMMO was a larger public figure, national POY, and IMO more likely to make a larger impact based on size/ability to score anywhere, anytime. I do like Foye however and would take him over many other players any time of the day. I watched him in the NCAA tourney and he carried Villanova: the rest of his team just watched and learned how to school opposing teams.

4. Yes, Ammo will never be a Larry Bird, but this team needed an identity. A team with an identity is a tough team to fear. AMMO brings that fire and desire that Bird brought, and is hard to see in many players (Gay, Vince Carter in his Tor days, t-mac in orlando days, etc). His work ethic had been heralded.

5. I agree that those players are better, I'm making the reference to shooters that took time to get it all together. I know they're superior to Ammo, but the transition from college to the NBA holds true for all players. It's obvious that it's especially hard on Ammo: hopefully he'll work through it and find his niche and I hope he does.

6. Agree that if the other players were on the team they'd porbably be ROY candidates too. I was wrong there.

All in all, I hope he turns it around. SOme players in rookie years do look lost (mainly it appers to be international players). I'm just not going to judge if he's a bust after 51 games. Check back at this time next year.

Ammo setting us back years isn't entirely true. I'd rather have failed this past year than this coming year. This draft is the make or break draft.

[Mustachio]

big theres no need to clearify bro. i think what your saying has a lot of truth but also has some unnessecary negative views.

to tell you the truth i almost agree with most of the stuff you say... im just takin it positive and hoping its just a rookie thing and he is gonna eventually live to the hype.


basically neither view is right yet... we wont know for a couple years probally.

[rallydurham]

Clearly Foye, Roy, or Gay would have been a better pick. That was pretty much obvious at the time.

Unfortunately, Roy came out and said he would not sign with the Bobcats. I'm pretty sure we would have taken him if he hadn't had that stance.

Gay's work ethic is still very questionable but his talent/size is undeniable. I actually wanted Gay at the time but in retrospect I'd rather have Foye.

Foye is going to blossom to be a terrific player. The fact that Minnesota wouldnt trade him for Allen freaking Iverson despite them being desperate to pair a talented scorer up with KG should tell you something. I think we made a big mistake not taking Foye. I think he could have learned to play with Felton and if not we could have dealt one of them (the Lakers and Hawks would kill to have Felton). He also would have made Brevin Knight completely expendable and we could have probably acquired Nazr Mohammed (decent player, position of serious need, has a great contract) from Detroit.

Morrison was a bad pick. There's nothing we can do about it now but hope he develops into a lethal shooter/scorer to offset his defensive/rebounding ineptitude. I'll be cheering for him as much as anyone, but I'm not blind and I'll call a spade a spade even if the proverbial "spade" is a white guy in this case.

[Slam]

Show me anywhere that it was reported that Roy took a stance and said he wouldn't sign in Charlotte.

Show me anywhere that it says Gay has a questionable work ethic.

[dvdbumpus]

Show me anywhere that it was reported that Roy took a stance and said he wouldn't sign in Charlotte.

Show me anywhere that it says Gay has a questionable work ethic.




I don't think he said he wouldn't sign with Charlotte, but with Lemarcus Aldridge and Rudy Gay, they all cancelled their meetings with the team for workouts repeatedly (kind of implying they didn't want to play there).

As for Gay and his lack of desire, I'm a huge uconn fan and have heard it multiple times of having a lack of fire. It's also indicated as a weakness on nbadraft.net's site.

http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/rudygay.html

[rallydurham]

^^ Um the knock on Gay has ALWAYS been his work ethic, lack of passion/interest, and uninspired play.

Roy said he didn't want to play for Charlotte. He cancelled the workout even.

[Slam]

Gay's worth ethic was never in question - it was him hanging out on the 3pt line that was brought into question. He didn't cancel any workout with the Bobcats - he actaully worked out twice:

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/draft_workout_060622.html

Roy never said once that he didn't want to play for the Bobcats. He came for the 1st time for a workout, got half way through and fell ill. He wanted to come in a 2nd time and the Bobcats said not to worry:

"(On Roy not coming in) Well, he was willing to work out -- he was willing to come in on a Saturday, but we just said okay, but we well pass. We know enough about him when we rank him, since he hasnt been in here. Weve watched him on numerous occasions because the workouts are not the sole reasons for the drafting -- its the whole body at work in our situation. So it was more so that Roy didnt want to come back in, but we chose to pass on that Saturday because we are comfortable with who he is."

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/draft_workout_060624.html

If anything Tellem influenced where he and LMA would be drafted.

[Mustachio]

get over it. foye could struggle on this team just like adam has. we are an expansion team, with an average coach.

our rookies are not gonna get calls, and foye would not be playing because bernie would be playing brevin knight in his positon.

Adam Morrison was a fine pick and i think he has a lot of upside left inhim.

as ive said before roy gay and foye attorneys at law have been less than spectacular on their respective teams.... and theres no reason to believe they would be any better on this team. i think you forget that morrison is still second on the rookie scoring list under roy who is averaging more minutes.... and i can guarentee they are more consistent minutes.... sometimes morrison doesnt even come in until after half time.

RELAX

[Slam]

You don't want to start comparing Ammo's stats to Roy's this season or their impacts on games.

You'll get ripped apart.

How long do you expect us to keep using the excuse of being an expansion team? I think that's a pretty crappy excuse.

[dvdbumpus]

I believe that while Roy was and is more NBA ready, Morrison had more potential and less injury history. Hopefully this is true.

[rallydurham]

No, Roy is a stone cold baller.

He can play the point or the offguard position. He's a very good defender, passer, and scorer.

Morrison is a one dimensional shooter that has yet to show any consistency.

The best case scenario for Morrison is to become Wally Sczerbiak 2.0

Brandon Roy has the potential to be near D.Wade's level in a few seasons.

Roy spurned the Cats, believe it.