Charlie Bell (and the backup pg situation)

[dnbman]

Someone mentioned that we should sign Charlie Bell on the ESPN message board. Up until recently I agreed. Here's why I don't now:

(same post from ESPN)

This is my take on why we haven't signed another pg.

1. If Felton goes down, I think the team will essentially resign trying to make the playoffs. Rather than struggle to be a mediocre team with a mediocre pg, the Bobcats would essentially cash in the season, chalking it up to significant injury. They would then get another relatively good draft pick.

2. They will likely draft a pg in the 08 draft. There are so many good pgs that will likely be entering the draft, that they will probably draft one. This makes a lot of sense because a rookie pg would be an inexpensive backup to Felton, who would be a solid veteran with three years behind him. In addition, if Felton doesn't get his act together, then the Bobcats could be grooming another pg to take over after Felton's tenure. We've got a team option next year and then he'll be a restricted free agent. As long as Felton is relatively o.k. this season, we'll pick up the option. Then we'd have a rookie with a year of experience waiting if we decide to move Felton. And if Felton pans out, we simply keep our rookie as the backup.

There's two things not to like about this scenario:

1. Lack of playoff experience in our vets. We'll just have to earn that the old fashion way: play in the playoffs.

2. We might need that first round pick on a big if what we have isn't working. In that case, we could still sign a veteran backup pg, several of which should be on the market. We could target a moderately priced workhorse like Duhon as the backup and draft a big.

At any rate, it might be good to NOT lock up a veteran pg to a multi-year contract, especially if they're looking for a few million a year. McInnis and a walk on rookie for this year followed by possibly McInnis and a drafted rookie next year might make better sense.

[spectre]

I thnk they want to give Felton unconditional control to see exactly what they have, but so long as he's the unquestioned starter I don't think adding Bell would interfere in that. I also don't like using an "excuse" for not making the playoffs. If everyone is going to give it their all this season...which I fully expect...it's just wrong to not give them all the tools in our power to help them reach the goal.

It's not all about Felton. He doesn't have to be a "star"...just solid. Bonnell's "BK fed articles" not withstanding I don't think there's all that "doubt" on whether he's our PG from the organization. After 1 full year at PG on a 3RD YEAR TEAM he was ranked right at 15th in the league. Folks act like that's "terrible" because of guys like Paul & Williams, but that's actually pretty darn good for a young PG who wasn't surrounded by experience or offensive threats. Now we have an actual go to guy Felton can feed.

Bell is a great defender and 3 point shooter who can play 3 positions and is only 28. He's a definite upgrade and he'll allow us to continue on when Felton's sitting...which is huge if we truly intend to challenge for the playoffs.

Offer the Bucks Harrington and a 2nd for Bell at 3 yr/9 million w/ 3rd being a player option (expiring and a 2nd is better than nothing). Bring in Jackson for the 15th spot at the vet. minimum:

Felton/Bell/Touche'
JRich/Hammer/Bell
Crash/Ammo/Duds
Fabio/May/Davidson
Mek/Primoz/Jackson/Hollins

Very well rounded lineup IMO. We'd have legitimate cover for when every starter sits.

[Keetch]

I haven't been following Charlie Bell up to now, but I've got to agree with you Spectre I'd like to see Bell here, for all your reasons. I checked out his skills on various websites and he looks solid. Who knows if the Bobcats care?

Dnbman, I think that ESPN post was probably baseless. Those excuses sound like a losers mentality to me. That's not MJ (at least I hope not).

[dnbman]

hehe... I hate saying this, but that was my post on espn's board. :deadbanana:

Sorry I didn't make that clear in the initial post. It was early in the morning.


The post wasn't necessarily my ideal scenario, but an explanation for why we haven't been a little more aggressive signing guys we want.

Riley said a couple of months ago that he didn't want to sign some pg that was essentially a cast away from another team. I'm wondering if the Bobcats think the same thing and don't want to spend money on another pg, especially one that would require a multi-year deal at % 3M per.

I think Bell would be a good addition, I'm just trying to think about what I'm doing if I'm signing the paychecks and planning for the salary cap. Maybe I don't want to spend on a backup this year since I have Felton and his mentor already under contract. Plus, I'm two deep at the 2. So, do I want to invest a few million a year in a guy who's a good player, but not necessarily a great pg? I'm especially curious about my pg spot if I'm not sure Felton can run the team. Yeah, he can put up some solid assist and point numbers. But, am I convinced that he can run the team? I may want to draft another pg next year if Felton can learn to control the team.

Back to my real thoughts....

I love Felton and think he'll be great. But I don't have to wage millions of dollars and the team's future on him. With the plan that I just mentioned, we still have backup plan in McInnis and could sign a rookie to back him up this year. (Bobby Brown?) That way we'd still have two pgs in case something happened to Felton, but don't have too much money invested in the position.

Also, once we know if our bigs are in solid shape, we could go after a backup pg next year via free agency and draft whoever fits us best.

Bell's great, but the Bucks let him walk in favor of a rookie pg backing up Mo Williams. I think they reason they did this (assuming they don't resign him), is that he's not a great pg for the money he wants. He's a combo guard who filled in admirably with the various injuries they had. Signing Bell would lock us into money that we may not want to spend.

Again... thinking out loud here. Devil's advocate... all that stuff.

I :rkiss0: Felton.

[Slam]

1. There are 14 other guys on the roster and an entire coaching staff. Felts isn't even the best player on our roster - at this stage he comes in around 5th, so not all our hopes start and stop with him, although he will have a big impact on what sort of season we have.
And if you are suggesting tanking - I can't see ANYONE in our front office being down with that. Look at who they are and what they are about. No way someone like MJ would sign off on tanking.

2. Who are the good PG's that will be in the '08 draft? While a rookie PG is cheaper, they are also MUCH more unreliable and inexperienced. Sure you might strike gold every now and then, but it's a big time gamble to draft a rookie pg - especially deeper in the draft, and expect them to be your primary back up.

I do agree that passing on Bell would be a goodmove though. I don't want to be spending 5 mil on a back up PG who isn't really a PG and is more an undersized SG who can play some point. I'd rather spend 700k on Dee Brown and 2 mil on DA who can mentor him.

[dnbman]

5th? Come on, now. Wallace, Richardson, and Okafor, I'll give you. There's no one that touches him after that.

And, it's not so much how good he is comparison to the team so much as his importance to making it all work. Without Felton, we're in a boat load of trouble if our roster stands as is. Okafor and Felton are the two pieces that would make us pretty lousy right away. At least with Wallace and Richardson we have pretty able folks to back them up.

I'm not thinking we'd tank the season if Felton were to go down, as we've proved we're not about tanking. However, I don't think they'd do much in terms of altering our roster to make up for the loss. Would they go spend money on a mediocre pg, trying to make the playoffs? No. Would they still try to win every game they could? Yes. There's a difference, though both would likely lead to us being in the lottery again.

As for drafting a pg versus signing one, Dee Brown is just a more experienced player who is unreliable and inexperienced. The guy hasn't played that much, even if has some experience.

BTW... here's what NBADraft.net has down for next year:

http://www.nbadraft.net/

Again, I'm not saying this is necessarily the way we should go. I'm thinking out loud.

We know we're going to need another pg soon (if not for this season to replace McInnis soon.) So, what's the best way to handle that?

[Slam]

We know we're going to need another pg soon (if not for this season to replace McInnis soon.) So, what's the best way to handle that?




I had my foot firmly in the "sign Dee Brown on the cheap and re-sign DA to mentor them both" camp. I honestly think that would have been the best way to go. Brown would be dirt cheap and has at least got a full NBA season under his belt to draw upon.

Other than that, I just don't can't see us doing anything other than signed retread vet PG's who are on their way out of the L for the vet min........................see Touche.

[spectre]

I do agree that passing on Bell would be a goodmove though. I don't want to be spending 5 mil on a back up PG who isn't really a PG and is more an undersized SG who can play some point. I'd rather spend 700k on Dee Brown and 2 mil on DA who can mentor him.


First I should say that Fatboy and a 2nd wouldn't do it. From the look of things the well is poisoned in Milwaukee and they're not going to help anyone out unless it's to their advantage. That leaves only teams with capspace and the MLE able to bid...and his agent is hinting that someone is willing to put out an offer sheet.

Say we had the space to add the 3 for 3 yrs...would you do that? I figure a combo guard (and you know how much I've been wanting one of those) at only 3 million per is still a very tradable asset if we're ever so inclined, and there's no doubt he'd be an upgrade over Touche'.

Folks worry about Felts going down...I'm more concerned with us trying to kill him with 40 minutes a night. By having a competent backup (who plays defense!!!) Felton stays rested and more in control.

[dav7z]

Spectra i kinda agree with you about a combo guard .And Bell, is not a bad option at that price.But don't think we spend that for him . We seem to be saving for next years free agency for some reason . I think it's like lets not spend all our money and see what our bigest needs are next year.This year will determine the moves we need to make such as Morrison, Hollins, May, Davidson , Herrmann, Premoz, So by signing players for one year lets us remain flexable. To decide who to keep and who not to.
The only mistake i think we made this off season is signing Jeff. Im like Slam ,and thinking Dee Brown and D Anderson . I still think we should go with Dee Brown to finish out our roster on the cheap. Or if we SPEND we should go after a Vareajo because i think he would have a better value than a Bell. I all so don't think its any bigs left for the NBA minium worth going after. I would rather give that playing time to our young guys to let them develop. So i guess what im saying is we should sign Dee Brown to finish out our roster. Hes the one man fast break and fits our system perfactly. A good team guy, and it would make more sence now to sign him than any one else.
Dee Brown will finish out our roster this year.I hope.

[dvdbumpus]

I'd prefer a big man to fill out the roster. Elton Brown anyone?

[spectre]

Realistically I doubt we spend that money on Bell either...pretty obvious they're trying to save what money they can, be it for the future or just trying to hold the costs down. You can't fault them for either; it's not like they were making money before they dropped all that cash on JRich, Crash & Hammer.

I REALLY like Dee Brown. He's such a class act and he seems pretty smart. When the options were all fringe D Leaguers he was my preference, and like all you guys I wanted DA as the last resort. Thing is Dee Brown hasn't shown anything to prove he's a 2nd string PG...just look at his stats last year:

33% FG, 21% 3FG, 65% FT, 1 Reb, 2 Assts for 2 ppg in 9 minutes.

The Jazz replaced him with Jason Hart.

If we bring Dee in (which I don't think we will) he's going to be 3rd on the pecking order behind Touche'. If we brought Bell in (again...we won't) HE'D be 2nd PG.

I think DA is a legit option to bring back...and we NEED another guy who can handle the ball, but even he would be 3rd option behind Touche as he's only a PG in a pinch or last resort.

Bumpus agreed we need a big too, but the lack of depth assuming everyone is healthy IS in the back court. If I were Hollins I'd be worried. He's the cheapest to whack and as I said earlier I think money is a big issue now to the Cats. With us needing 2 and only 1 spot available I think in the end he's outta here.

[dav7z]

It's a lot to factor in about Dees numbers . I think he would thrive in a run amd gun offence making his numbers a lot better. Next i would hope he would be the 2nd point behind Felton and get regular mins. Just let Jeff in if the young guns have truble. Jeffs not going to teach Felton much now but Felton could help Dee out a lot.His numbers would jump a lot in our system.
I agree about Hollins if he don't produce somewhere around midseason. He's gone but i think he gets a chance early to see what he can do. Like you i would love to have D Anderson but we all ready heavy on the wings. If we sign him i look to see Morrison traded. Dee Brown and what we got is our best cheap option we got right now.

[Slam]

Not that I am a huge subscriber to the per 48 system, but this is kinda interesting:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm.cgi?req=1&cum=1&p1=brownde03&y1=2007&p2=feltora01&y2=2007

It just sort of shows that given the opportunity, Dee might be able to produce at a fairly nice rate.

I wouldn't imagine that Sloan would have given him much of a chance especially in the very limited mins he got.

[spectre]

It's still using the 33% FG and no matter who he's being compared to (Felton in this case) he's still going to come up short when the other guy is shooting better. In this particular case Brown is only showing 10 ppg in 48 minutes. His rebounds and assists do look better...but extrapolating low mpg guys will do that...for instance do a compare on Kevin Burleson to Dee Brown. Burleson is short 2 assists in comparison and 0.6 rebounds...their points are virtually identical.

I just went back and looked at Dee's college stats...wonder what happened his senior year to cause such a FG% drop? In his first 3 years he shot 43%, 41%, 50% and then 36%. Shooting the 3 ball he went 33%, 35%, 44% and then 32%.

Nothing I've seen screams to me that Dee Brown could take the 2nd PG slot from Touche' (and that's comparing Touche's stats from last year...one of his worst). Bell on the other hand last year:

44% FG, 37% 3FG, 76% FT, 3 Reb, 3 Assts for 13.5 ppg in 28 minutes.

Other than assists that's better than Felton.

As I've said before I really really like Dee Brown, but there's no doubt Bell would be MUCH better for our depth. Brown's a project; Bell contributes now.

[Slam]

I just went back and looked at Dee's college stats...wonder what happened his senior year to cause such a FG% drop?

Deron Williams went to the NBA and Dee had to find his own shot.

[dav7z]

Im not saying Dee Brown is the better player . Bell is a lot more NBA ready. But he is at least three milion a year and we not going to pay that this year.All so thats three milion against our cap next season too. Whitch takes some flaxability away from the team.
Dee Brown would be a much better option at 700k for one year til we assess what we have need of. He just might be a keeper as a back up to Felton. Torch plays no defence at all as Dee Brown will try to get in your face. Our mistake is signing Torch with this run and gun offence.

[spectre]

I don't think we're going to spend 3 million either...which is why I'm not going to argue this too much (or have I surpassed that already?).

Next year I think we're going to be near/right at the cap regardless, so 3 million probably won't affect us that much. We'll still have the MLE which is roughly 5.5 million to add another player if we're so inclined, and there's always trades.

Speaking of which, I'd argue that Bell is another trade asset which would cost us NOTHING.

Maybe Dee could be a keeper, but Utah didn't think so and they had the added incentive of their best player being Dee's best friend. Sure, it could have been Sloan and his hate for rookies...but it has to send some type of red flag.

Again, I wouldn't have a problem with bringing him in...but this is about us making some noise this year and giving the team the best chance to do it. Bell would be.

[dav7z]

Just asking because i don't know . Do you think Bell is worth investing 3 to 4 years at 9 to 12 milion .
I get the feeling Dee Brown is not a cheap option for you. What option should take going cheap as i think we are going to go. D Anderson , or a Bobby Brown. ideas or even go with a big. Who i have no idea do you.

[spectre]

Heck yeah I think Bell is worth 3 million per year, and I think that if we ever have the inclination to trade him we'd find plenty of takers. He's not Calderon, but he has to be one of the better 2nd PG options out there. He's experienced, shoots a good % and has no problems being a backup.

Some quick comparisions and who I think is not as good as Bell:

Chris Duhon - 3.2 million
Carlos Arroyo - 4 million
Marcus Banks - 4 million
Kevin Ollie - 3.4 million
Jazzy Cabbages - 4 million

I avoided rookie deals and the high dollar contract types like Jason Terry.

Bell did better than all those guys and if he'd been an UFA he'd probably have been getting MLE offers.

If it was up to me I'd do what I said on the last page...cut Fatboy and add in Marc Jackson for beef. If the Bobcats were to go this route they'd probably whack Hollins instead.

Bigs... as in a more permanent piece? I'd have at least made the offer for Gooden that we discussed earlier (basically capspace...Primoz for Gooden straight up). I'd make Ammo available and/or our '08 1st protected and go after Wilcox or Collison. Inquire about one of NOLA's young bigs.

I don't mind going with what we have though assuming we add some beef for insurance. If May's healthy and Fabio doesn't regress I think we're better at that position than a lot of people think.

Edit: Forgot the cheap part. If we do anything I'd assume Bobby Brown...but it wouldn't surprise me a lick if we just added Jackson and held pat so far as guards. If Touche' or (heaven forbid) Felts gets hurt then we'll do like last year; cut Hollins and bring in the best thing available...which won't be much.

[dav7z]

If Bells that good i wouldn't mind locking him up for that price. A quility back up is important. But if we go cheap minimum contract , like i the think the Bobcats will who do you add. We just not showing any signs of spending any more this year.

For get about Bell hes signing with the heat just saw it on real GM.......

[spectre]

Miami just signed Charlie Bell to an offer sheet for 5 years, 18 million bucks. Guess we'll get to see how good (or bad!) Bell is for a good long while!

[dav7z]

True,,,,,, Who we sign now.

[Keetch]

Jeez so Miami locks up a solid defender/role player at SG/PG with decent shooting touch for avg. 3.6M for 5 years. A guy who does a lot of things reasonably well and doesn't hurt you because he's on the court playing (oh yeah we've seen those).

That's how you win I guess.

All's quiet from the Bobcats front office (yaaaawwwnnnn).

[dvdbumpus]

Jeez so Miami locks up a solid defender/role player at SG/PG with decent shooting touch for avg. 3.6M for 5 years. A guy who does a lot of things reasonably well and doesn't hurt you because he's on the court playing (oh yeah we've seen those).

That's how you win I guess.

All's quiet from the Bobcats front office (yaaaawwwnnnn).


I wouldn't pay him that money, not for 5 years at least. Miami is just desperate to get somebody besides Smush Parker in the offseason to counteract that weak Jason Williams PG situation. I hate saying it, but I would rather have resigned Brevin for less years. Bell is a shooting guard in a point guards body. He has defense, but so does DA and for less years. He can also manage the players on both a leadership and on court role just as good if not better.

For players like that, I'd definitely take the low risk with hopes of a decent reward in Dee Brown, or wait for an NBDL player. Heck, even former Dukie Jay Williams. 5 years is just too steep for me for your 2nd/3rd string point.

[Keetch]

Bumpus: I hear ya and don't necessarily disagree, I mean this is Charlie Bell we're talking about...not exactly CNN Breaking News.

But if he is a veteran, is solid on defense, can play some PG and not take bad shots; then he sounds like a reasonable investment to me.

Then again he did diss the Bucks; so he could be bum.

No edit that. He signed with the Heat, he's definitely a bum.

[spectre]

For all we know the 5th year is team option...with the position Bell was in I have no doubt he'd agree with that. An average of 3.2 give or take for 4 years is NOT bad at all. Look at what we paid Hammer; most think it was a little much but none of us are complaining that much. Is Bell only worth a little over half as much?

I hope the Bucks match. Bell gives depth (as well as limiting Smush's playing time) to our division rivals which we don't need. Not saying a bench player makes THAT much difference, but adding a shooter next to Flash can never be a good thing.

[dav7z]

It just dont floor me him signing with another team , He signed for what he is a decent backup making back up money kinda like Carroll . If we compared the two i would much rather have the hammer . Hes a gunner and can change the corse of a game quickly. Spectra who do you like now . Im still with Bumpus on Dee Brown low risk high reward player.
Any one got any other ideas on that 15th player.

[spectre]

Dav probably Dee Brown...just because the guy is so full of class. Go to Hoopshype/Rumors and read some of the stuff he put on his blog after the Milwaukee workout. The organization might be more inclined to go with Bobby Brown due to his time in SL with us (didn't see one SL game...so I have no opinion).

Like I said earlier it wouldn't surprise me a bit if we stand pat with the guard situation and just added a Marc Jackson type; if Felts or Touche' go down we'd probably handle that like last year (meaning Hollins get waived for what's available).

[dav7z]

What would be your thoughts on giving up a 2nd round pick to Golden state , for POB.
Ithink i might do that too. He might cost just a little over Dee Brown and Bobby Brown but being a center and a first round pick . He has more upside than say a Morrison.
Your thoughts LOW RISK HIGH REWARD players its looking like.

[spectre]

Unless they totally give the keys to Nellie there's no way I see them dealing POB for that right now.

And if you suggest that on the GSW board look out for old rem!!!

I haven't really seen enough of POB to know what I'd offer for him. He's still a project and we have 2 of those already in Hollins/Davidson. Obviously POB should be better as he was a lottery pick and it'd probably be worth our while to trade those two for him...I just don't know. Slam's high on the guy so maybe he'll chime in.

I'd really like someone who'd help out now more.

[dav7z]

On the Golden State board thet talking about sending him to the D league. We might get him for a socond round pick. I post on thair board all the time all those guys are real cool. some of them think Nellies not giving him no chance and hes bound for the D league , Damn he was strong coming out. He has to be a up grade over Premoz with his size and agility.

[spectre]

Oh I know...the GSW fans are mostly top class, and what they did after we got JRich on the RealGM board really impressed me. The old rem comment was mostly tongue in cheek...he's a great poster but tends to get a little long winded when it comes to POB and their team's lack of rebounding.

Pretty sure Slam mentioned Jonathan G over at Draft Express saying GSW might actually waive POB. That'd be very hard for me to believe...but maybe the fans just aren't in tune with Mullin?

Chris Taft might actually prove that to be true; before they cut him the fans were pretty adamant that he was a project and they weren't interested in just giving him away. Come to find out...they were.

[dav7z]

He sure has a lot of rumors about him . Its a no brainer take a 2nd rounder or waive him . I think the kid can play.
I would like to hear what Slam and ZIGGY . and a few others think about him like Tamb . Bump , Wallace Must. 123, and the others think about picking up POB.

[Slam]

I've never actually watched POB play closely but am basing wanting him on the fact that he is still only very young (20), is a legit 7 footer, can block shots and was a top 10 pick only a year ago.

That and the fact I think he could be had on the cheap.

And yes, Jon G told me that he has the mail that the GSW's wont be picking up POB's option.

[chabber]

Bell is going back to Milwaukee! The Bucks matched the Heat's offer so it looks like the one good part of their off-season isn't even going to happen. :biggrin:

[Muttley]

Bell is going back to Milwaukee! The Bucks matched the Heat's offer so it looks like the one good part of their off-season isn't even going to happen. :biggrin:


Ha Ha! Eat it Miami! I hope they look terrible next year.

[Keetch]

Wow! The Bucks have definitely become one ballsy group. First in-your-face Yi we're taking you and now um sorry Charlie but you're staying in Wisconsin.

LOL love it.

[dvdbumpus]

Wow! The Bucks have definitely become one ballsy group. First in-your-face Yi we're taking you and now um sorry Charlie but you're staying in Wisconsin.

LOL love it.


I dig em. That takes some serious manhood to do those things. F you china! We're drafting him anyways! Now Bell. Maybe they'll sign and trade?

As for POB, i'd definitely grab him. I was high on him during his college days.

Here are some things that draft experts noted:

While O'Bryant doesn't appear particularly athletic at first glance, he is that and more when you consider just how big he is.He posses a 7’5 wingspan and a 9’4 standing reach, freakish even for NBA standards. By the time he is done developing, he could be one of the more physically imposing big men in the NBA.



O’Bryant is very tough to stop once he gets the ball close to the basket, as he is very strong finisher. Using that potent combination of strength, size, and athleticism, he can power up and dunk where most post players would have to rely on a finesse move. He is either bigger or more athletic than almost anybody he could face at the college level.

As far as a back to the basket game, O’Bryant is still raw, but progressing. He utilizes hook shot and drop step moves, and appears to have a basic understanding of how to score on the low blocks. With his ability to gain position close to the basket and his wingspan, O’Bryants jump hook could be particularly devastating down the road.

While O’Bryant still has a lot to work on, he is already proving to be much more than just a prospect. Teams that attempted to attack him early in games near the end of the season came away largely unsuccessful. Don’t think for a minute that O’Bryant’s mere presence in the middle (even in the games where he didn’t score a lot of points) wasn’t a major reason Bradley was able to make a Sweet 16 run this season.

I'd definitely cut Hollins ass to have POB on the team due to his ability to score and is just as much of a shot block presence, with better D. I watched him some during the sweet 16 run and he just dominated everyone inside, it was sick.

OH yeah, here's a prank J-Rich pulled on POB haha:

rv58sCIEhRQ

[davcbow]

Gonna send you the bill "Dog". LOL funny stuff... :biggrin: