How will May's injury impact the team?

[peapod]

With our best option at power forward out for the year, who will pick up the slack?

Oakafor's agent, and the Bobcat FO should be in close contact for the next few weeks to get his contract extension done. Coupled with the 57 million for Gerald Wallace, over 6 years, 27 million for Matt Carroll, over 5 years, and 4 years left on Jason Richardson's 51 million contract, it's not likely the Bobcats will be bringing in any more bigs right away. IMHO.

In earlier posts, I argued that until May got healthy, it would be best to start Hermann at the 4. Even though Sean is our best option, giving better Rebounding, and inside scoring, Hermann gives us better speed and spacing. When he's dragging the opponent's 4 outside, to guard against the 3 ball, it opens up the floor for our best penetrator, (Felton), and our best finisher/slashers-J Rich and G Wallace.

With Primo backing up Okafor, and Ryan Hollins getting reserve minutes, I think the best option to back up Hermann, will be Jared Dudley. Don't be shocked if he even starts a few games. He may not be the most athletic guy, but has a high basketball IQ. He does all the little things, is a good shooter, and is a tenacious rebounder for his size.

Option 3 is Gerald Wallace himself. No explanation needed.

Jermareo Davidson has the height, length, and shot blocking skills. He just needs to bulk up, and gain some experience.

Bottom line: When you lose your 3rd best player, pre J Rich, when healthy, it will take off a few games from your win total. Can the Bobcats still make the playoffs? Can they even match last years total?

Part of the answer of course, depends on how the other players respond to the challenge. Who will step up to provide leadership, rebounding, scoring, defense, and all the other things Sean brought to the table. (Don't say doughnuts ;>) Actually he was more into taking them away. LOL

Seriously, all our best wishes should go out to Sean and his family, for a speedy and successful recovery. We're pulling for ya big guy !!

peapod

[timang]

oh man, i'm still sickened by the news. :(

well, since we still don't know what will happen from this problem we're in, so as of now probably my preferred PF order would be:
1. mek (put primo and hollins at the C)
2. fabio (stretches the offense)
3. crash (oh, i still hate the thought of placing him here)
4. dudley
5. davidson

[ALong13]

I'd still have Hermann at the 4 position, I never had May as a starter this season...I believe this just gives us a shot to allow Dudley and Davidson to get some time and expierence this year, we didn't have May much last year, or his rookie year, and we still improved significantly (sp?) and I think we can win and get into the playoffs this year without him...

so my starting 5

PG: Raymond Felton (Jeff McInnis, Derek Anderson)
SG: Jason Richardson (Matt Caroll)
SF: Gerald Wallace (Adam Morrison, Jared Dudley)
PF: Walter Hermann (Davidson, Harrington [ If Healthy ], Dudley)
C: Emeka Okafor (Brezec, Hollins)

ESPN has the depth chart like this though...


Charlotte Bobcats

Point Guard: Raymond Felton (Jeff McInnis)
Shooting Guard: Jason Richardson (Matt Carroll)
Small Forward: Gerald Wallace (Adam Morrison Jared Dudley)
Power Forward: Emeka Okafor (Walter Herrmann, Sean May (INJURIED), Othella Harrington, Jermareo Davidson)
Center: Primoz Brezec (Ryan Hollins)


But it has said that due to Brezec being out Hollins has started at Center all during training camp....

[chabber]

I never factored him into the season to begin with so no problems from my perspective. I thought if he actually played 50+ games and gave us consistancy we might could win closer to 49 games.

I like Herrmann and Dudley trying to man the PF spot this year.

[ziggy]

With Sean May being out for the entire season, it means that the health of Emeka Okafor is even more critical to this team's success. I propose that we petition the NBA to allow Mek to play this season in a full body armor suit to avoid injury :biggrin:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w301/bobcatsplanet/A09.jpg

[bobcatsden]

One thing's for certain - Jared Dudley's going to be thrown right into the fire.

Regarding all these posts putting Okafor at center - Vincent appears to be doing everything in his power to play Okafor at PF and *not* center.

[davcbow]

Herrmann and Dudley should both get alot more minutes also I now dont see Hollins going to the D-league. They are all going to have to step it up.
Go Bobcats..... :g:

[Mustachio]

my options: with may out.

1. Ray/rich/crash/Mek/Hollins (vinnys current lineup. and the best i think)
2. Ray/HammerAmmo/Rich/Crash/Mek.

still dont understand not using Crash at the 4 as at least a backup option. His numbers are better there. He is actually LESS of an injury risk at the 4 becuase hes not doing his leaping stunt man antics as much.
and if were gonna be a running team... thats about as fast as you can get.

[dav7z]

To me it would be nice to trade Morrison for Gooden or Vareajo . Hate to say this because i love the way May plays . But after three knee srurgerys his carer is done for.
question for all you guys does May count as a roster spot if hes going to be out all season .All so does Mays salery count against us this season since he want be playing and insurance shuld pay his salery . Same question about Harrington and his seregy . It looks as if we have two roster spots open. wour thoughts.

[Mustachio]

To me it would be nice to trade Morrison for Gooden or Vareajo . Hate to say this because i love the way May plays . But after three knee srurgerys his carer is done for.
question for all you guys does May count as a roster spot if hes going to be out all season .All so does Mays salery count against us this season since he want be playing and insurance shuld pay his salery . Same question about Harrington and his seregy . It looks as if we have two roster spots open. wour thoughts.


my thoughts.... first off. why would cleveland want Morrison for a big man? they got bron bron.

secondly ammo isnt gonna get traded. the bobcats just lost one fan favorite... they arent going to drop a second one. WE HERE might not think Ammo is great but one visit to the arena shows that hes hugely popular there.

[TheBeagle]

I never factored him into the season to begin with so no problems from my perspective. I thought if he actually played 50+ games and gave us consistancy we might could win closer to 49 games.

My thoughts exactly. Anybody who was counting on Sean to play 40+ games in the first place is/was borderline delusional. If his injury turns out to be that devastating, as some of you make it out to be, then we were in a hell of a lot more trouble than I realized, before the recent prognosis. There's no way anyone should have relied on Sean. What evidence was there that he was going to suddenly be reliable this year? The majority of you "clowned" on him the whole off-season, what with the Kristy Kremes, and posting appearances partying with the townies, now all of a sudden it's like we just lost an MVP candidate. Wow, this reaction just baffles me completely; since I'm in the minority here, perhaps I'm the deluded one :g:

[ziggy]

Beagle,
You're not delusional at all. Although I knew that he wasn't going to give us 70+ games this season. In my mind there was always those lingering "what ifs".
What if the knee is ok this year?
What if he drops some weight?
what if he is able to hold down the PF spot?
With Sean's talent, I think we all let the "what ifs" outweigh our rationality.

[Keetch]

I'm almost relieved that finally May will receive full treatment for his knee. I'm not frustrated at all. What was frustrating was the denial / wishful thinking that Sean and the Bobcats have been living with for a long time.

I never really expected anything different this year anyway; his basic problem had never been resolved and you knew it ultimately had to be.

So best wishes Sean; here's to successful surgery and rehab. I very much look forward to your return to the team next season and very much hope the team and fans stay positive for you.

Without you the Bobcats can still be a good and entertaining team. With you in the future, we can be champions.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

Even more now, I wish we had Voskul.

[qchoops]

WvsMc,

You hit the nail on the head - the Bobcats management must have been expecting to get minutes out of May this year or they wouldn't have allowed Voskuhl to leave. He didn't put up great numbers, but he did give the team solid minutes and he knows how to play in the pros. Now, Hollins and Davidson (or maybe just one) are going to be tossed in the fire, and the team's record is going to suffer for it.

[dav7z]

First Mays knee is done for .Drilling holes to creat scar tissue to replace cartlidge will Never work. We need a experianced big one way or another. Even if it means trading Ammo he's expendable right now.We to deep on the wings any way. Or even signing Vareajo srraight out. Losing May hurts but it's not the end of the world.But the way i see it is we got two roster spots to fill and we have lost two power fowards. We need to get two experianced bigs to replace them. At least one decent one. We got enough projects in Hollins and Davidson. Hollins will not last 10 mins befor foul truble if he starts. Premoz it seems as if his personal truble might last a while according to what i've been reading. Face it we need a solid vetran and most are gone now. So we either try to sign Vareajo or trade Ammo for some one . No one else makes sence to trade.Does any body want to trade a Rich or a Wallace or a Carroll just to keep a Ammo.

[davcbow]

I dont see where it will effect us much because we are used to him not being in the game already.... :g:

[123together]

it means walter and dudley will have to play a lot of minutes, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but may has mad skillz when he is healthy

[kidk612]

First Mays knee is done for .Drilling holes to creat scar tissue to replace cartlidge will Never work.

Umm... it has worked on other guys and I don't see any reason to be overly pessimistic about May's chances to come back from this. He's pretty young and its not like his game was centered around jumping out of the gym to begin with. I could understand questioning May's role in his own rehab, especially given his rep on this board, but I wouldn't write off his career based just on the surgery.

As far as trading Ammo, I personally think thats a terrible idea. If you really think we could get a guy like Gooden for him at this point you are out of your mind. Why would we possibly want to sell low on him right now?

I also think signing Varejao would be a mistake. From what I understand he's demanding Darko money ($7-8 mill a year I believe?). Making a multiyear commitment of that kind of coin to someone of his status would bite us in the ass. With the Oakfor contract situation and Felton being eligible for an extension I think next year, seems like we'd be handcuffed to our current roster. Varejao would be really nice to have on the team given the current situation but to me it just doesn't seem worth it.

Maybe I'm delusional, but I don't think now is the time to hit the panic button. I'm unsure how the situation with May will play out, we have a $2.6 mil option for him next year, but I'd hope that regardless of what happens he'll be back with us unless we don't want him around, which we'd be crazy not to. Can't even begin to predict how this surgery will affect him or whether he'll be truly committed to coming back, but if he does come back at least close to his former self and stay on the court, I'd take him over Varejao. 2 years younger with a higher ceiling and already has more polish anyway. I'd stay the course, bring in a cheapish vet big and hope our younger guys step up, keeping May as a somewhat low risk option after this year.

I know it sucks after a summer of positive moves and optimism to take a blow like this, but giving away Morrison for peanuts or buying high on Varejao at this point just don't seem like the answers. Is our roster strong enough to make the playoffs? I honestly don't know now that May is out of the picture, but its certainly still possible and I wouldn't want to make a rash move just to increase our chances this year, if its going to hurt us in the future.

[Mustachio]

i like the way nckid thinks!!!

May's knee surgery is something that a very high percentage of players who have had it done recently have come back from. Including Amare Stoudemire i think.

Ammo isnt going anywhere... might as well just come to terms with it.

[dav7z]

First for get trades , I have had more knee sregrys than most can count . With each one those ligiments get looser, First the MCLs then the ACLs . Second it's no way in hell scar tissue will replace cartlidge. I have to have a cortazone shot monthly just to walk because of scar tissue. And i've went from where hes at now to a artifical knee. Hes done for can't you see it's a last ditch effort.
Premoz personal problems lasted the whole camp . The rumors of him not returning are ramped. Harrington with his second knee sergrey in less than a year makes him done for too coach V has said as much. Two projects is not going to get us to a play off spot. One of you Ammo guys explain to me how get to the play offs that thin up frunt. Do we play Ammo at the four or the five. I have nothing against him at all but it seems to me you puting AMMOS needs above the teams needs.
For get Ammo , Can you really say we are not in need of a big . Please explain what you do with the roster spots.
Does Ammo have a frind or somthing.

[davcbow]

They are thinking of doing this...
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Bobcats-may-sign-Jackson;_ylt=AtVeChMpu3Pr0gjftCoT7XGfzIx4?urn=nba, 48207
.... :g:

[bobcatsden]

I'm increasingly convinced that the Bobcats are going to start Ryan Hollins and roll the dice that he can be a serviceable NBA center (in a Dalembert-esque role).

[tijo]

Honestly, I wasn't counting on May for anything this year anyways... until he proves that he can lose weight and have the self-discipline to stay on the court, he will not be on the floor for us.

My thought from the start of the offseason was that we would start Okafor at the 4 and Primoz at the 5. Primoz had a terrible year last year, but he was suffering from exhaustion, and he should bounce back this year. I mean for the first few years, it was just Primoz and Wallace for the offense and THAT'S IT. People forget how good he was when he wasn't exhausted. The fact that his nickname is "pillow" because of his defense... well, that's another story.

I think we'll use Primoz and Hollins as our offense/defense rotation for our 5 spot. I think our 4 comes down to Okafor and Fabio, with a few minutes going to Super Mareo. Dudley also spends some time here is he needs to.

starters: Felton/J-Rich/Crash/Okafor/Primoz

reserves: Touche/Carroll/Ammo/Fabio/Hollins

DA backs up the guards, Duds backs up the forwards, Super Mareo backs bigs.

Honestly, I don't think the May injury is as bad as people think, and I don't think we are that shallow at the 4/5. If Crash or J-Rich or Felton went down, it would be MUCH worse. Heck, even if Ammo, Carroll, or Touche went down, it would be worse.

I am a little disappointed that we didn't sign Dan Dickau. I want that whitewash for a second unit - Dickau, Carroll, Ammo, Herrmann, Primoz. But I like our roster.

[dav7z]

How do you plan to play Premoz if he don't come back to the states . You guys keep saying May out . Its not just May ,its May , Harrington , Premoz. No one can say with all three gome we don't need to replace at least one of them with a quility guy. We getting insueance money for May and probely Harrington . question do we regain that cap space this year.

[spectre]

Bobcats notes | Others' loss is Hollins' gain (http://www.charlotte.com/sports_breaking/story/306351.html)


As far as big men May (knee injury) and Brezec (excused to address a family matter), Vincent said they're both back in Charlotte.

Brezec has been shooting, and Vincent hopes he'll be in camp soon.

That was Friday.

What gets me is he (like Fabio) took the summer off from FIBA play to get in better shape...but all we get is "he's been shooting"?

[dav7z]

So hes playing , What in the world is he shooting a movie or somthing . From what i read it was a family matter and he might not be back wow. Does any one know if insurance money affects a contract like Mays......... Cap wize. I read today insurance was paying his salery this year.

[Muttley]

Yeah, I've seen Dav7z ask this at least 3 times now, with no answer.

With insurance pays May's salary for the year, then how does that affect the cap?

As much detail as some of you guys know about the cap system, someone should at least have a guess at this. I'd be interested to know too. Thanks.

[dav7z]

Yeah, I've seen Dav7z ask this at least 3 times now, with no answer.

With insurance pays May's salary for the year, then how does that affect the cap?

As much detail as some of you guys know about the cap system, someone should at least have a guess at this. I'd be interested to know too. Thanks.
REP IT UP MUTTLEY , If any one knows please tell us or even lie good .lol

[Mustachio]

i have no clue, but i dont think you will get any cap space back from May unless you cut him, and then theres probally a penalty. May will go on the IR but will still cost money and cap space. Insurance only pays the ownership back the lost salary money. So that may help ease Bob Johnsons mind about bring in another contract, but as far as cap... we would still have to work around it. thats the most logical thing i could think up at least.


As far as the big man situation, OF COURSE i think we are thin there. and im not putting adams needs in front of the team.

I just think(like i have since draft day) that you wont get fair return on Ammo. No one is gonna send you Shaq or even Varejao for Adam Morrison at this point. So why just get rid of him to get rid of him, besides the fact that some people just dislike his game or him. His value lies on the Bobcats bench at this point. AND ITS ONLY BEEN ONE YEAR!.. you dont give up on high draft picks after one season. you just dont. and in a league where injuries are just an akward foot landing away... it doesnt make sense to trade away quality depth for another body who happens to be 6'8 250lbs...

IF you could get a solid big man, out of Adam im all for it. but giving up Ammo (potential, jersey sale, popularity among young fans) for just a big body doesnt make sense. and ill say it again, if his own teams fans try to devise trades for him daily... why would any knowledable GM trade for him.

the suns are one of the best teams in the league and they dont have a bevy of big men at all. we gotta remember we are installing a new scheme here... one that is based on the run and gun. a big boy has less benefit in that system. Not saying bigs are useless... just saying losing three guys we havent counted on ever.. is not the end of the world.

[Muttley]

Thanks Dav7z.

Also, thanks for the response Mustachio. I definitely think that most people haven't given AMMO the shot he needs to be successful. I know I'm bound to pull for the guy just because he's a bobcat, but I really do expect improvement from him this year. He will contribute, I'm sure of it. It would be really disheartening if not, because it probably means that he didn't get off the bench. All that would do is keep his worth low and make him a steal for some other team if we trade him.

[dav7z]

Mustachio i agree with much of what you say . That probely doesn't affect our cap . Wish it did and it should.
As far as Ammo i wouldn't give him away either. If he had no value then i say keep him. But hears where i think we differ i think he still has value. Hears a couple of guys we might get even for Ammo. They might not have enough value to trade for.1st Krstic from NJ. Hes under rated and is a 16 and 7 player fairly young. NJ will not play him a lot because of adding J Mcgloire
2nd Pachillia from the Hawks hes a 12 and 7 guy .And we all know Hartford is starting and Williams is backing him up. It may not take Ammo to get him May be just a second and Harringtons contract . Thats 2,2 paid by insurance.
Harrington or May plus a second could land us a decent big from teams over the lux tax.
All that said we still thin up frunt . I can't feel good about Premoz any more at all.He might be another trading peice it's a favorable contract. Botom line we need at least one big we can count on . Not just a couple of projects.

[dvdbumpus]

I think where Adam will be very useful is @ SF when Crash gets moved to the 4 and we play small ball. I think Adam will be better prepared this year.

This year I expect this from Adam:

14 pts, 3 boards, 1.5 assists 45% FG and 39% from 3 - land.

[davcbow]

We can only hope. I hope he comes out and kicks butt this year to hush his critics and up his value.... :g:

[ziggy]

I think where Adam will be very useful is @ SF when Crash gets moved to the 4 and we play small ball. I think Adam will be better prepared this year.

This year I expect this from Adam:

14 pts, 3 boards, 1.5 assists 45% FG and 39% from 3 - land.



I think thats very realistic Bumpus.
This year he'll get the chance to match up against a lot of 2nd units, and whenever he is on the floor with the 1st unit, he won't be getting the opponents top defender like he did last year. Those guys will be too busy trying to contain Crash or J-Rich.

[dav7z]

We can only hope. I hope he comes out and kicks butt this year to hush his critics and up his value.... :g:
Well ever sence MAY goes down all we talking about how good Ammo is going to be . No one seems to care how thin we are up frount. If we don't make sone kind of move to add a big . Don't come back crying when we win 35 games this year tops. No May don't make that big of a differance by his self. But when you forced to start a project at the five you can't blame the kid . You have to blame the higher ups for not handling the problem. BUT when we lose because of all this just put Ammo in . He seems to be the savior and you be happy to lose.................. Most of you agree Amoo is the answer to the problem i don't. He MIGHT be a decent role player but thats it.

[spectre]

Yeah, I've seen Dav7z ask this at least 3 times now, with no answer.

With insurance pays May's salary for the year, then how does that affect the cap?

As much detail as some of you guys know about the cap system, someone should at least have a guess at this.  I'd be interested to know too.  Thanks.
REP IT UP MUTTLEY , If any one knows please tell us or even lie good .lol


My take...

I'm going to assume insurance will pick up May's salary, but it doesn't reduce our overall salary in regards to capspace nor do we get an added roster spot.  To do that, we have to get an injury exception...that DOES allow for more money to be spent (half the injured player's salary...approx. 0.9 million in this case) AND an extra roster spot.

Now less than a million is pretty worthless as we can sign a player to a vet min deal anyway...but considering we have 15 guaranteed contracts the extra roster spot should be a big deal IMO.  Thing is, the NBA seems very frugal in giving out that injury exception...they didn't give it to ORL when Hill went down.


He seems to be the savior and be happy to lose.................. Most of you agree Amoo is the answer to the problem i don't.

Amazing how 2 months can change one's perceptions eh?  IMO it's best to keep the expectations low with Ammo else the disappointment will rival last year.

BTW, Marc Jackson has reportedly signed with a Euro team.

[dav7z]

Our first preseason game is the Magic . How many of you think Hollins last 15 mins against Howard with out being in foul truble. We have no banger at all.

[spectre]

Our first preseason game is the Magic . How many of you think Hollins last 15 mins against Howard with out being in foul truble. We have no banger at all.


Funny, I was JUST thinking about the Magic and how we'd match up.  Assuming they run:

Nelson
Bogans/Dooling/JJ
Hedo
Lewis
Dwight

It'd appear we match up best with Fabio in there instead of Hollins, as both Hedo and Lewis are perimeter type offensive players. I agree though; after Mek there's no one to pair up against Dwight.

[Mustachio]

First of all you guys are underestimating coaching!

Felton can and will guard Nelson fine.
Richardson will smother whoever they wanna put in at SG.
Crash will absolutely smother Hedo.. like completely
Heres where you think the problems start.

But i dont agree. Let Dwight get his... he wont have more than 40 points. Just coach Hollins to play with his hands in the air and make it a little tough on Dwight... make it so that all he needs to worry about is help D and rebounds. Then shut down everyone else.

[spectre]

You forgot Lewis. Do we expect Mek to guard him out to the 3 pt line?

And Howard will take it INTO Hollins...his aggression in going to the hole is one his biggest strengths.

[Mustachio]

We can only hope. I hope he comes out and kicks butt this year to hush his critics and up his value.... :g:
Well ever sence MAY goes down all we talking about how good Ammo is going to be . No one seems to care how thin we are up frount. If we don't make sone kind of move to add a big . Don't come back crying when we win 35 games this year tops. No May don't make that big of a differance by his self. But when you forced to start a project at the five you can't blame the kid . You have to blame the higher ups for not handling the problem. BUT when we lose because of all this just put Ammo in . He seems to be the savior and you be happy to lose.................. Most of you agree Amoo is the answer to the problem i don't. He MIGHT be a decent role player but thats it.


Dav buddy i think your reading too much into this. I understand that we are thin up front, what i dont understand is this sense of urgency after May went down for good. I like many others had already gameplanned around him. kind of expecting him to miss at least 40 games. I dont think Ammo is the savior. I dont even care if he starts. I want the best matchup out there possible with the team we have. I am more than welcoming a new big body here... but i also dont think its the end of the world if we dont get one.

You can say all you want that Ammo is slow, and doesnt try and hell i cant really argue with the doesnt try part sometimes. Sometimes he does seem lazy, but the slow part i disagree with. Ive seen the boy sprint down court on a fast break and hes got more speed than plenty of people. I actually think a lineup of
Ray/Rich/Ammo/Crash/Mek will hurt some people for stretches of a game. Thats a lot of firepower wether you wanna believe it or not. You cant have the whole team going for alley oops all day. So Ammo might be a great mix in between Crash and Rich. The oop or easy dunk isnt open on a fast break???? Ray buddy just dish it to the trailer adam morrison and let him put in 2 or 3 points for you.

[Mustachio]

You forgot Lewis. Do we expect Mek to guard him out to the 3 pt line?

And Howard will take it INTO Hollins...his aggression in going to the hole is one his biggest strengths.


i didnt forget about Lewis at all. Just figured i didnt need to address it. in that scenario id more than welcome Hermann to guard Lewis... but i also think Hollins is as atheletic if not more than Hermann... so he can hang with lewis while Oak guards Dwight.

heres where im questioning the panic about May.... COULD MAY GUARD LEWIS AT THE 3 point line!? heck no. could Mark Jackson... no. So why get upset when they wouldnt even be in the game in this scenario. We have two to three players that can play in the PF spot and effectively guard Lewis right now. Hermann, Hollins, maybe Dudley depending on what he shows. Not saying he wouldnt get points... just saying they could semi contain him... where as May or Jackson would get smoked.

and again... Lewis and Howard are gonna get their points no matter what. shut down the rest of the team and go from there.

[dav7z]

Its not just may , Its three bigs. Premoz is at home and don't know if he wants to play [NO CONCERN] Read this real GM THREAD
We need to do somthing fast. No we can't afford to let Hollins get 40 droped on him ever night.





http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?topic=716047

[spectre]

Heh...well you posted "Just coach Hollins to play with his hands in the air and make it a little tough on Dwight", so the only players left not mentioned is Mek and Lewis...so maybe it DID need to be addressed. :wink:

There's going to be an issue there. Hollins won't be able to stay with Lewis nor will Primoz, and if we let both of those guys go for 30 each we aren't going to win. The only guy Mek can effectively defend is Howard, so if it was up to me I guess I'd start out with:

Felton/JRich/Crash/Fabio/Mek...play Crash on Lewis and Fabio on Hedo. Duds would get a lot of time on Lewis/Hedo as well as Primoz/Hollins/Davidson backing up Mek against Dwight.

That last line is where Dav and others of us see the problem. Those last 3 aren't good post defenders and will probably give up a LOT of "and ones". We really need a big to at the least make Dwight earn it on the FT line.

[chabber]

Heh...well you posted "Just coach Hollins to play with his hands in the air and make it a little tough on Dwight", so the only players left not mentioned is Mek and Lewis...so maybe it DID need to be addressed. :wink:

There's going to be an issue there. Hollins won't be able to stay with Lewis nor will Primoz, and if we let both of those guys go for 30 each we aren't going to win. The only guy Mek can effectively defend is Howard, so if it was up to me I guess I'd start out with:

Felton/JRich/Crash/Fabio/Mek...play Crash on Lewis and Fabio on Hedo. Duds would get a lot of time on Lewis/Hedo as well as Primoz/Hollins/Davidson backing up Mek against Dwight.

That last line is where Dav and others of us see the problem. Those last 3 aren't good post defenders and will probably give up a LOT of "and ones". We really need a big to at the least make Dwight earn it on the FT line.


Exactly, if only we could have pulled off the same trade Seattle got with Phoenix before we signed Gerald and Matt. We'd have been far enough under the cap to take on Kurt Thomas one year salary and he'd have given us a good post defender, rebounder and spot up shooter plus the 2 first rounders.

I don't expect us to play the matchup game in pre-season but when the regular season rolls around I hope we see Vincent making adjustments like mentioned above if Hollins is the regular starter. As far as we know he doesn't cause match up problems anywhere or bring enough to the starting core to justify not playing Herrmann in his place when playing a guy like Lewis. I don't like coaches that say we do it our way and try to make the other team change. Matchups are one of the biggest parts of basketball especially in the playoffs. We'll see really soon how good of a coach he is in this area.

Vs Orlando I'd do this:

Felton vs. Nelson
J Rich vs. Redick/Bogans/Ariza(whoever they start)
Wallace vs. Lewis
Herrmann vs. Hedo
Mek vs. Dwight

[Mustachio]

guys your preaching to the choir! I know we need another big man... hell every team in the league wants another big man.

the problem lies in the abundance of effective big men. I understand we need another big man... we can move past that point i never said we didnt need one. I just dont know where the hell you think your gonna find one.

Marc Jackson is in Europe now. and really isnt the answer were looking for as far as im concerned. Just cause hes big and been in the league for a while doesnt make him the effective player we want.
Andy Varejao will cost too much and really isnt an option.
and no one is gonna trade a big for Adam Morrison so just forget that idea.


Im just trying to create ways we can deal with this with what we have. We are almost full up on the roster and pretty cap stretched right now, at least in Bobs eyes. So instead of telling me whats wrong when i already know... tell me how to fix it.

[bobcatsden]

Mustachio is right. It's time to start talking about the Hollins/Primoz tandem, which is almost surely going to be our center corp moving forward.

Regarding Hollins v. Dwight Howard..... we'll find out tomorrow night, I guess.

[chabber]

At this point there isn't a fix unless it's via a trade but we've known that since around the time Wallace/Carroll were signed and it appeared we weren't going after Darko and Varejao for money reasons. I don't blame them as they were both wanting too much cash for their productivity. At that point it was apparent that one of either Hollins or Davidson one would play a role this season unless Sean May became healthy. I think the surprise is that Primoz isn't here and that Vincent has inserted Hollins as starter over Herrmann but that doesn't mean he'll play more minutes.

[spectre]

Mustachio is right. It's time to start talking about the Hollins/Primoz tandem, which is almost surely going to be our center corp moving forward.

Regarding Hollins v. Dwight Howard..... we'll find out tomorrow night, I guess.


Do you think that Coach V will be so inflexible that he won't adjust the PT due to matchup issues? I certainly hope not, because if that's the case we in for one very long season.

And the Primoz/Hollins tandem is exactly what we're talking about. Mek has problems guarding Howard...so I don't think it's a stretch to think Hollins or Primoz is going to get owned in the paint by him.

Neither of those guys could stay out of foul trouble against average post players...do we really believe Hollins has progressed THAT much???

And then there's Lewis.

I agree Chabber, Howard would have been huge for us.

[dav7z]

Two bigs we might get in a trade of some kind . I said 20 post ago. We need two to three bigs depending if Premoz decides to play or not.
Tell me whats yrong with Krstic hes 16 points and 7 boards a game. He could be traded for.
Pachullia from ,ATL, hes 12 points and 7 boards.
We might have to make a trade but damn Harrington and May are done for any way. And if we have to trade Morrinson a big is more important now any way.
Thats just two thoughts im sure a big can be odtained . And i bet others have ideas to get a big all so.

[Mustachio]

dude lots of teams have trouble stopping Howard. but weve slowed him before and obviously he isnt the best big man out there so theres ways of stopping him Hes a great player... you can let him hurt you a little if you stop the rest of the team.

if we go into the game with a lineup like chabber selected... we win in almost every position.
Crash > Lewis
Mek =/< Dwight.

we can handle that. like i said. Dwights freakin good man. hes gonna give shaq trouble (and there arent a lot of shaqs out there). if we can contain or at least slow him down... well be ok.

[Slam]

I would hope that match ups would determine positions on D. So EO50 would guard Dwight and Twiggy Lewis.

I think it's more on offense that Coach V wants to play EO50 as the 4 and Twiggy the 5.

For every Magic there is a Knicks. EO50 and Twiggy would blow the doors off the chubby's (Curry and Z-Bo)

[chabber]

Exactly but those are game to game match ups. Twiggy and Herrmann both could get eaten up by Curry/Z-Bo defense and literally. However both our guys could run them into the ground and Herrman could take one all the way out to the 3pt line negating one of their rebounder's.

The reason I'm all for Herrmann play PF is because if he can play at even half as good as he did last year he'll create mismatches almost every game and that is a + for us.

[spectre]

I think it's more on offense that Coach V wants to play EO50 as the 4 and Twiggy the 5.

Like usual, I worry more about defense (why some think I "hate" Ammo), but ok...let's look on the offensive side for a moment. Until we see Hollins in action and (hopefully) see what Coach V sees it's going to be extremely difficult to debate this point.

But since that's never stopped us...let's debate it anyway!!!

By playing both guys someone is going to have to hit that midrange jumper else the other team is going to pack it in (Primoz is actually great at that...too bad he's sooooooo bad on defense); we saw it plenty of times last year. Mek has the "potential", but he's not lived up to it thus far. Hollins did make a midrange J in the last scrimmage, but last year he did nothing but try dunks...which I liked BTW, but doesn't help in this pairing. Has he "suddenly" become an offensive threat from 10-15 ft out?

On the flip...Fabio on offense forces Lewis/Hedo in this instance to guard him out at the 3 line. Crash's guy Hedo/Lewis has to try and stop his drive (good luck with that) which has the potential of getting either/both in foul trouble...esp. since only Dwight is manning the paint.

Floor's spread...we have 4 guys who can drive or pass. Dwight's gonna bite...Mek's gonna get dunks. Lewis/Hedo/Dwight are all subject to getting in foul trouble...which won't be the case with Hollins as he's not a threat (unless that's changed).

Strictly on offense, I actually think Ammo would be a better pairing (gasp!). We won't discuss defensively though.

But again...it all depends on whether Hollins has made these great strides. Since Coach V hasn't even worked with Primoz yet (and how it appears that he'd start Primoz over Fabio as well) I am really doubtful so far as this plan.

And on NY Curry/ZBO...Crash AND Mek together couldn't stop ZBO at Milwaukee and Curry is a beast offensively. I think it's going to be a lot more difficult to beat NY until we get a real big (not a bandaid).

[Slam]

We've never had a threat like JRich before - so that puts a very different slant on spacing. Dudes wont be able to sag off him making it harder to stack the paint. Plus Crash is getting better and better with his J meaning guy's can't sag off him either. EO50 has shown continual and longer range on his offensive moves so maybe he will be a high post player.

Coach V is all about denying the pass into the post. Twiggy has very long limbs and is very quick so he might be very effective at that. If he can stop the pass coming in, then it limits the looks someone like Dwight is going to get.

Besides, wouldn't the Magic start with a Howard/Folye front court? If that is the case, we'd run them off the court.

[spectre]

We've never had a threat like JRich before - so that puts a very different slant on spacing. Dudes wont be able to sag off him making it harder to stack the paint. Plus Crash is getting better and better with his J meaning guy's can't sag off him either. EO50 has shown continual and longer range on his offensive moves so maybe he will be a high post player.

Coach V is all about denying the pass into the post. Twiggy has very long limbs and is very quick so he might be very effective at that. If he can stop the pass coming in, then it limits the looks someone like Dwight is going to get.

Besides, wouldn't the Magic start with a Howard/Folye front court? If that is the case, we'd run them off the court.


Oh, no doubt the paint won't be packed as badly as it was last year; Felts usually had to contend with up to 4 guys camping out in the paint. We're still talking 2 guys being in there vs. one if you have your PF pulling his guy out to the 3 line.

From everything that I've read on the ORL board Foyle's backing up Dwight...but SVG has also said he's only locked into 2 starters, so who knows.

I don't think I've EVER seen Hollins try to defend anyone outside the paint. Maybe he'll be stellar at it due to his long wingspan...but I'd have to think he's susceptible to the drive. Thing is Fabio's lone standout is his ability to deny the pass to his guy and staying in the guys face when he has the ball (and HE'S susceptible to the drive as well).

I'm just going to have to see it. No doubt Bernie sucked at developing players, so maybe there's much more there than I've seen so far.

[davcbow]

I think Hollins is better than we all thought. He may have suffered in production due to the system he was playing in at college and then just sat on the bench most of the time last season with the Bobs so we still didnt know what he was able to do; now we are finding out..... :g:

[Mustachio]

i still dont see what everyone sees in Hermanns ability to deny the pass. Defensively he looked as lost as anyone to me. he had his moments, but hes far from defensive stud status. IMO.

(keep in mind with this paragraph, that its just what i see from Hollins... as he hasnt proven anything yet)
But i happen to think like you said spec... that Hollins might actually be very good at defending outside the post. To me Hollins is more a 7 foot Gerald Wallace in his style of play at least, more so than your standard Center. Hes long, can leap and is quick/fast as anyone his size. hes better on help defense in the paint than having someone back him down. I just think he can be coached up and become a very effective player in this league. No one wants it more than him it seems and i think his physical gifts coupled with his drive ... it will be tough to keep him down.

[davcbow]

Ah come on man, when Herrmann finally started getting regular minutes he started kicking butt. His defence although not great was getting better, but he sure can hit the bucket.... :g:

[Mustachio]

not to mention... its a dream if Hollins reaches potential.

If Ryan becomes the 14/10 guy we dream he can be it would be a sick ass nasty team to watch. 5 guys that can run, and 5 guys that fit the prototypical size of the player he matches up with.

Ive said this before a long time ago. At full realized potential... this team would be hard as hell to stop.

Felton / Richardson / Wallace / Okafor / Hollins. not to mention the boys you can bring in off the bench. im telling you, its the way we need to push anyway. Hollins fits the new system we think were running to a T. That lineup on all cylinders is really good. NOW WE JUST HAVE TO SEE HOW MANY CYLINDERS RYAN HOLLINS CAN RUN AT!. you listenin ryan?

[spectre]

Heh, in NO way should "defensive stud" and Fabio be used in the same sentence unless you're trying to show what it isn't!

He did become VERY good at getting in his guy's grill and kept the pass from getting to him; I remember some his opponents getting downright pissed at him a couple of times. The downside is of course Fabio's lateral foot speed (or lack of)...if his opponent gets the ball and drives then Fabio's lost.

And I think you misunderstood me (or was referring to someone else) so far as Hollins and his perimeter defense. I'm QUESTIONING it.

Until we actually see him play it's damn hard trying to debate this whole scenario. All I have is last year, which should by itself worry all of us. But like I've been saying all along with all the fringe players like Hollins and Touche'...Coach V has been with them all summer, so he should have latitude in his decisions.

[Slam]

i still dont see what everyone sees in Hermanns ability to deny the pass. Defensively he looked as lost as anyone to me. he had his moments, but hes far from defensive stud status. IMO.



He's no stud, but he's a GREAT defender in the post. Some guy's have really got stats which shows them to be great defenders - like Crash. 2 and 2 after all!! And the way he does it is jaw dropping.

But Fabio is like Jake. Jake might not average 3 blocks a game but he sure does change a lot of things on the defensive end by using his smarts and getting under players skills. Watch the times we played the Bucks last year and what Fabio did to Ruben Patterson. Look at the way Fabio never gives up on a play. Look at the way he hassles and hassles and hassles.

His stats might not show it and once his man gets past him it might be all over, but he's a heck of a good play at not allowing the ball to come in clean in the 1st place.

[rallydurham]

Not to play the "I told you so" card but it's pretty obvious given our situation that we would have been better off signing Darko than Matt Carroll.

Darko fills a position of need, has more upside, and is mildly statistically better than Caroll already.

Backup wings are a dime a dozen and we have a logjam at that position particularly if Dudley develops into a solid player.

This injury puts us well below 50/50 odds of making the playoffs.

Really our only shot is that Okafor, Wallace, Richardson stay remarkably healthy (a longshot) and that Felton improves immensely.

Otherwise we've maxed out our cap space just to compete with the Milwaukee Bucks and New York Knicks for the late lottery positions.

[dav7z]

agreed we in a damn mess til next year. Unless we can make some trade or Hollins and Davidson come through . We really need both to step up at this point. Jackson is even gone now we won't have that big body that can bang down low this year with jake gone Harington washed up and May done for. If ok50 goes down we have no body in side at all. But two rookies.....

[davcbow]

We will find out tomorrow night if Hollins has improved. I think he has, he is stronger and from the scrimage game they played the other night he did well in it...... :g:

[Keetch]

:biggrin: OUTSTANDING game analysis folks, just outstanding... and for a preseason game no less! If Coach V isn't reading your stuff then he's working too hard.

If you all keep this up into the season...man, what a forum. Reading your stuff has me at very high expectations for a silly preseason game. Cool!

I'm still hopeful the Celtics waive Batista and we can sign him. Dude was a DNP in their first preseason game. Don't know, maybe he sucks.

[Keetch]

As for a potential Hollins/Howard matchup; I'd send Ryan out there after yelling in his ear: "balance - lateral quickness - no lunging, no poking"

See ya on the bench in 5 minutes.

[Slam]

Not to play the "I told you so" card but it's pretty obvious given our situation that we would have been better off signing Darko than Matt Carroll.

Darko fills a position of need, has more upside, and is mildly statistically better than Caroll already.

Backup wings are a dime a dozen and we have a logjam at that position particularly if Dudley develops into a solid player.

This injury puts us well below 50/50 odds of making the playoffs.

Really our only shot is that Okafor, Wallace, Richardson stay remarkably healthy (a longshot) and that Felton improves immensely.

Otherwise we've maxed out our cap space just to compete with the Milwaukee Bucks and New York Knicks for the late lottery positions.



Except Dude isn't a SG and is in fact a SF/PF so it isn't the same position and Darko cost three times the amount of the Hammer.

I dont see your point here?

[spectre]

I'd take Hammer's blue collar work ethic over the never ending potential of Darko any day...much more so when it's 3 million per cheaper. From what I understand we even got him with a descending contract structure...so we'll only have him on the books for a little over 3 per in the last couple years.

We had 33 wins last year, lost Jake Voskuhl and added 2 PFs in the draft...one being a 22nd pick and is almost guaranteed to be better than Jake by himself.

Would I like another big? Sure, but I'd also like JRich upgraded to Flash. Doesn't mean we didn't get better.

That "I told you so" card doesn't work here.

[peapod]

My Goodness! I leave you guys alone for One Week, and you're already stirring up trouble;>))

While I was gone, and missed the 1st 2 games, Fabio has turned into a "defensive stud":-D
Former reserve, Ryan Hollins is speeding down the court as our new starting center, "poking, prodding, and lunging". He must have really improved.

Ammo has done so well, that many of us are considering trading him for LMA, Frye, Kristec, Pryz, or "anybody that's 6'8" and 250 ;=P
Primo is back with the team, but won't be playing for a while. I sure hope he's not exhausted like last season. Still don't know what his "family issues" were.

All seriousness aside, my take on Hollins starting is, Vincent knows what the other bigs can do to an extent, but doesn't really have a grip on how good Hollins is, or can be. The best way to find out, is to play him. Since Primo isn't here, start Hollins. He gives you energy, speed, shot blocking, defence, and doesn't need to score much, with the other options the Bobcats have.

The only thing I have against it, once the season starts, is that it's going to keep some good players on the bench.

I'm glad to see Morrison off to such a good start, and before the season started, felt he would be our most improved player. He will be good insurance in case J Rich, or G Wallace, goes down with an injury, or as a reserve for 15-20 minutes a game. Would love to get LMA, or Frye for him, but have to agree with nckid, in that unless a really good big fell in our laps, (don't laugh), we'd be buying high and selling low. Not good for our long term strategy.

Gotta go pray for Sean, and as a tribute, will stop by Dunkin' D, ummmm....doughnuts.......O

[davcbow]

I hope Primoz can get it together soon we could really use him to be at the top of his game with May gone for the season.... :g: