We got to make a move

[dav7z]

Im convinced after the Atlanta game today we can take off the rose colored glasses thet we have had on all of preseason. Hollins is not going to be that defencive stoper in the middle . Hes not even average at rebounding. We have a big problen inside. We have been beat up on the boards in ever game but the Heat game . And Oneal didn't play but about 10 mins in that game. Poor old Matt Carroll Had the 2nd most rebounds in todays game . Thats sad.
If we don't address this problem some way we going to miss the playoffs again this year.
1. The players we have better get a hell of a lot better blocking out.
2. Our bigs including OK50 have got to stop getting pushed around.
3. We got to get a decent big through a trade sone way some how. [ SOME ONE WHO CAN BANG]
4. We are going to have to stay at home instead of going for the fast break until we get the board.
We not going to be a decent team til we adress thease problems.
WOULD LIKE TO HEAR YOUR OPENION ON THIS ?

[davcbow]

I agree dav, we will never win anything if we dont do better at rebounding, we gave up entirely too many offensive rebounds to the Hawks. 45-29 rebounding and 17-4 offensive rebounding. Thats bad no matter how much I love the Bobcats. Something has to be done now. If we dont get alot of wins in the beginning of the season since most of the games are at home we can hang it up for sure.... :mad:

[kjk2241]

dav7z let me ask you a question. What is your expectation of next season? Also realistically what would the best outcome for next season be in your opinion?

[ohara831]

Guys, I was out of town today and missed the game alltogether. By the box scores, we got killed on the boards. I noticed Jermareo only played like 5 minutes. Did he get hurt, or was it merely coaches decision.

[dav7z]

I expect the team to play around 500 ball this year . But the rebounding is real bad . The players have to stay at home on the boards not rust run . I like the tempo as much as the next guy but you GOT to get the board to run. We have NO physical player to go to as Jake left last year. He did a lot of things you don't see [ BLOCK OUT , FOUL HARD, SET PICKS, the team needs that type player. Its no excuse to be out boarded that bad.
Realisticly playing like we playing now. 30 to 35 wins
Addressing the problem 40 to 45 wins
Let me hear your thoughts on this .

[ohara831]

I don't know who would be out there for us that is better than the team we currently have. Unless we actually go and make a trade. Before Oden went down, I really thought that we were prime for a Trade with Portland for Jarret Jack and LMA. That would have given us a #2 PG who could seriously challenge Ray for the start, and a big to go with Oak. I thought that as bait we would dangle either Adam or Herrmann, add Primoz or Othello and likely a 2nd rounder. With Oden out for the year, that pretty much went away. The only other option is O'Neal from Indiana, but I do not know what it would take to get him. I say him because I really believe Indy wants to start over as they are in disarray.

[ohara831]

By the way, did you catch the game? Can you tell me why Jermareo oly played 5 minutes? I would have thought he could have been help on the boards. Since Oak played so much, and Hollins only 1/2 game, did we just play small ball?

[ohara831]

How about Al Jefferson? ESPN is saying that Minn is going to offer him an ext of 5 yr for $50 mil. He is a 16 pt 11 brd 22 yr old PF. there is no way he takes a deal for $10 mil a yr. If he does not take by 10/31, then he becomes a RFA next season. **I would think very seriously about packaging Adam, someone else who can play and a 2nd round pick to get Al Jefferson. He and Oak on the from line, with out wings and Ray at PG, that may be the best starting 5 in the game. What do you think?

[ammofan]

I dont wanna be shot down for this but I think we should trade Ray Felton....I went to the game the other night againest NJ and he didn't seem like he had improved at all...he actually seemed worse! He was missing open shots(and taking unnecessary ones) he was also not getting his passes on the money. (Mainly the Alley oops)...Morrison better not be traded and I dont think he should be. He worked his butt off this summer and has improved! Herrmann on the other hand looksto be back to where he was at the start of last season. I would trade Fabio, Othella, Primoz, 2nd Rounder for LMA and J Jack.....If we traded felton I would trade him for another big....

Just my 2 cents

[davcbow]

Dont go into panic mode yet guys, its still preseason. I want to see what primoz does first. Some of the trades ya'll been talking about would leave some pretty big holes on the bench in my opinion. I'm in wait and see mode right now but we need to improve in rebounding so if that dont improve fast then I think a trade of some kind for a good big is called for.... :g:

[ohara831]

I like the first deal proffered by Ammofan. It would be a 3 (and a draft pick) for 2, so it would not deplete out bench too badly. But, if we went after a Minn deal for Al Jefferson, I think that one intrigues me even more. However, either would be good.

I do not believe I would wait too long. With the Oct 31 deadline where ext deals must be done or players become RFA, that puts pressure on a team to deal. I would throw Adam in rather than Herrmann simply because of the salary. If we package him, Othello and a 2nd round pick, that would let us agree with Al to an ext. That way, we are not taking him with the liklihood he will be gone in another year. I do not think that applies with Jack and LMA as they are not in that same position. I would keep Fabio on that deal and keep Adam with us.

[ohara831]

I think I am moving in this direction because I was really surprised we struggled so mightily against Atlanta 2x already and against Orlando. These guys are in our division and we have to be better than we have been playing. The two games we won show what we can be at our best, but we will not always play at our best. Teams that want to go somewhere and make an impact have to be able to win games when they are not playing their best. We simply need more talent on our team to really make a solid playoff run. For the love of God, what a nightmare if we actually have a losing records against Atlanta - I said Atlanta! I am not pushing the Panic Button. I am simply trying to make sure that I am not being blinded by my love for the team and my desire to see them do well. That's all.

[Muttley]

Yeah, no panic button pushing here, but also we can't ignore some possible problems.

1. Point Guard - anybody been satisfied with the way Ray Ray's been playing this preseason? (note: box score indicates that he did shoot well today and didn't overshoot as he has been. 4 of 5 ain't bad.)

2. Banger - we're getting killed on the boards.

I really hope that Vincent and the front office are paying serious attention to these situations and making contingency plans. In particular, I'm okay with trading Felton if he's just gonna play the way he has lately.

However, I do think that things will improve.

[kjk2241]

I expect the team to play around 500 ball this year . But the rebounding is real bad . The players have to stay at home on the boards not rust run . I like the tempo as much as the next guy but you GOT to get the board to run. We have NO physical player to go to as Jake left last year. He did a lot of things you don't see [ BLOCK OUT , FOUL HARD, SET PICKS, the team needs that type player. Its no excuse to be out boarded that bad.
Realisticly playing like we playing now. 30 to 35 wins
Addressing the problem 40 to 45 wins
Let me hear your thoughts on this .


I was just curious because I have first had the discussion with you regarding trading Ammo and now I see you wanting to make changes. I understand how you feel about wanting a banger, the problem is I dont see us realistically doing this. The one player that seems to be on the outside right now is Hermann, but I dont like the idea of trading him.

I dont think that we will get any value for the players that we would be willing to trade. To be honest you IMO we should pick up a big like Marc Jackson before we trade anybody.

I guess that I am a strange fan. I would be excited about making the playoffs,but if we didnt make it, it wouldnt upset me greatly. I know that we are still a ways away from a Championship, so I say we shouldnt give up on some of our young potential just to reach the playoffs now. Keep developing our young talent and the playoffs wont be what we will be shooting for.

But if you want to hear my dream scenario we whould find a way to get Varejao but I know that is not going to happen with the cap, but I guess I can dream right.

[kjk2241]

I would trade Fabio, Othella, Primoz, 2nd Rounder for LMA and J Jack.....



WOW to this trade idea...If you really think that this is feasible you've been playing too many video games. No disrespect but...
Othella(hurt and not doing anything)
Primoz(no trade value, heck he didnt even want to be a FA after his pathetic attempt at basketball last season)
2nd round pick (needle in a hay stack)
Fabio (not a lot of trade value, esentially had a good 3 or 4 months)

Essentially we are trading Fabio+2nd for LMA and Primoz for Jack. Sounds fair to any bobcat fan!

[ohara831]

I expect the team to play around 500 ball this year . But the rebounding is real bad . The players have to stay at home on the boards not rust run . I like the tempo as much as the next guy but you GOT to get the board to run. We have NO physical player to go to as Jake left last year. He did a lot of things you don't see [ BLOCK OUT , FOUL HARD, SET PICKS, the team needs that type player. Its no excuse to be out boarded that bad.
Realisticly playing like we playing now. 30 to 35 wins
Addressing the problem 40 to 45 wins
Let me hear your thoughts on this .


I was just curious because I have first had the discussion with you regarding trading Ammo and now I see you wanting to make changes. I understand how you feel about wanting a banger, the problem is I dont see us realistically doing this. The one player that seems to be on the outside right now is Hermann, but I dont like the idea of trading him.

I dont think that we will get any value for the players that we would be willing to trade. To be honest you IMO we should pick up a big like Marc Jackson before we trade anybody.

I guess that I am a strange fan. I would be excited about making the playoffs,but if we didnt make it, it wouldnt upset me greatly. I know that we are still a ways away from a Championship, so I say we shouldnt give up on some of our young potential just to reach the playoffs now. Keep developing our young talent and the playoffs wont be what we will be shooting for.

But if you want to hear my dream scenario we whould find a way to get Varejao but I know that is not going to happen with the cap, but I guess I can dream right.




I don't think you're a strange fan at all. I understand exactly what you are saying and I respect that view. If we do not play well enough to make the Playoffs, the world would not end. However, this town got burned by Shinn so badly that it really has to make an extremely strong effort to win back so many fans that we lost. they started by resigning Gerald and Matt and getting J-Rich. They need to get Oak resigned which should happen soon. However, that is a good team, likely above avg, but not a team which will go deep in the Playoffs. IF we cannot do anything else this year, so be it. i will root hard for them and expect them to challenge hard every game. Maybe we get a 7th or 8th seed. BUT, if we have an opportunity to put ourselves in a position which can be considered SPECIAL, then not taking it only keeps the fans we want to bring back away. Sometimes, you have to be willing to throw yourself out there and take a chance. If you fail, get back up, dust yourself off and try again. Michael had a mentality as a player that he wanted to be the very bust - never 2nd best. If he still has that drive, he has to make a bold move to put us over the top. Long winded, but I wanted to say it.

[ohara831]

kjk: I understood Ammofan exactly. In Portland, they have an abundance of good PGs and can afford to give up Jack. When Oden comes back, LMA is expendable as Trade bait. If we send them something they can use (Herrmann was inquired about during offseason) and a couple more players which are serviceable but who may have Contracts expiring soon, as well as a 2nd rounder, that gives them some solid flexibility. It was a solid idea. Granted with Oden out they may not do something like that this year, but prior to Oden getting hurt, there was a lot of talk about them moving LMA and Jack, on several Team Boards.

[spectre]

Heh, no panicking going on here!

That package wouldn't get LMA, much less both those guys.  He's not trade bait, he's their ultimate 4 to play with Oden.  Like kjk said, what we're willing to part with won't get ANY value right now.  Morrison has NO value, Fabio had a 20 game stretch which shows potential, but he's also on the short side of reaching 30.  Adding Harrington is a negative, not a positive.



I dont wanna be shot down for this but I think we should trade Ray Felton....I went to the game the other night againest NJ and he didn't seem like he had improved at all...he actually seemed worse! He was missing open shots(and taking unnecessary ones) he was also not getting his passes on the money. (Mainly the Alley oops)...Morrison better not be traded and I dont think he should be. He worked his butt off this summer and has improved! Herrmann on the other hand looksto be back to where he was at the start of last season. I would trade Fabio, Othella, Primoz, 2nd Rounder for LMA and J Jack.....If we traded felton I would trade him for another big....

Just my 2 cents


I'm just astounded by this post.  Tho Felton's not played great (let's totally forget the PG position is the hardest to learn), he's done a HECKUVA lot more than Morrison has for this team.  To even think of trading Felton, esp. since he's struggling and would no doubt bring a lesser talent at PG back in trade on the premise of a few PRESEASON games yet declare a BACKUP wingman untouchable is just assinine.

[Jonathanmartin7]

I think we just need to stay the course. I'm sure Sam will get them to box out better and hence rebound better. I don't think we need to trade anybody just give them a chance to jell and we will come out fine.

[ohara831]

Hey guys, we all need to remember that we all love our Bobcats and we want this team to be the very best. Sometimes we may differ on what we think will help, but we all have to keep our cool and remember that we are talking amongst friends here. No ones ideas are assinine, unless they are trolling our Boards from another team. I love Ray also, but there is concern about how he is playing. To speculate on trading him with others for someone else is OK to discuss, but we would have to get a descent PG back, cannot go with just a Big in return. That leaves us with NO ONE to play PG as a starter. IF we are to make a trade, you must give in order to get. That means either Fabio or Adam would have to go. If we do not make a trade, fine. However, don't talk about a trade if you are unwilling to part with anyone but a scrub because that is unrealistic. Now, lets be GOOD TO ONE ANOTHER - PEACE TO YOU ALL.

[davcbow]

I may be wrong but I think what started alot of this trade talk stuff is the fact that Boston pulled off that trade with Minnesota and now look at them.... :g:

[spectre]

Whatever you want to call it, at the least the thought borders on absolute homerism over a player vs. the team.

Today Ammo played 30:35 minutes...he went 3 of 9, 1 of 2 from the stripe, recorded NO rebounds, NO assists, NO blocked shots and NO steals.

How in the heck does a player be on the court for 2 and a half quarters and do nothing but shoot 33%?

All Ammo has to do is shoot and attempt to play credible defense. Felton has to run the team under a new coach/system, decide who should shoot, when he should drive and when HE should take the shot.

There's no way any credible person could say that Ammo should be untradeable yet we should dump our only PG because of play in preseason.

I'm fine with staying as is; someone said above that the world won't end if we don't make the playoffs and they're right. We are a 4th year team for Christ's sakes. If Mokeski can't get the young guys to block out we cut Fatman and pull in a bruiser.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

I love how we were talking so positive about the Bobcats yesterday, but after one off-day for us, there's a gigantic problem that can only be fixed by trading.

Anyway, we should have signed Voskul to a 2-3 year contract. If possible, I wish we could make a trade for him. I don't think we need to panic that much, all we need to do, in my opinion, is sign a back up caliber big man. Heck, I'd be fine with Watkins.

[dav7z]

If you guys noticed in my first post. I didn't say we had to trade a player. I said we HAVE to make some chances.
And we do, any real fan knows it.
1. our biggest problem is rebounding. Some how we stoped boxing out and cleaning up the boards this year.
Just my openion but i think we trying to force a running tempo. If Matt Carroll can box out so can ever one else . Its no need to panic . The problem just has to be addrested. Oak is a hell of a lot better on the boards than hes showed so far. I think hes trying so hard to get out on the break.Davidson and Hollins are doing the same thing as is the whole team.
So im saying we need to clean up the boards .
I didn't say any thing about a big trade either. We just need a experianced banger for mental toughness. It could as bad as a J White a banger and tough ][ no big trades]Have to happen.
I didn,t say nothing about trading our point, Yes Felton has got off to a slow start. And we hearing talk about his turnovers. Ever body is turning the ball over to much.
This new tempo is going to take time for us to adjust to. Thats part of the reason for all the turnovers it's not just Felts its everbody. This needs to be addrested NOW not after the regular season starts.

I say we just step back SLOW down do the fundamentadles and let the tempo come to us . Right now the team is trying to force the speed and screwing everthing else up.

[ohara831]

Spectre: I agree with most of what you said. So, let me ask you. Would you trade Adam and Ray for Jarrett Jack and LMA - straight up? Or, if we had to sweeten the pot with an expiring Contract benchwarmer, would you? That would give us a solid young PG to replace Ray, would cost us Adam's potential, but it gives us LMA to work with Oak. Honestly, I think we would be better than we are now. OR, if we could get Al Jefferson from MINN, who would you part with for the trade?

[WarioVsMooChicken]

CARROL HAS DONE GREAT AT REBOUDING WHEN OTHERS HAVEN'T, STICK HIM AT C!!!!1111 :P

[spectre]

Spectre: I agree with most of what you said. So, let me ask you. Would you trade Adam and Ray for Jarrett Jack and LMA - straight up? Or, if we had to sweeten the pot with an expiring Contract benchwarmer, would you? That would give us a solid young PG to replace Ray, would cost us Adam's potential, but it gives us LMA to work with Oak. Honestly, I think we would be better than we are now. OR, if we could get Al Jefferson from MINN, who would you part with for the trade?


Ohara, absolutely I would even tho it would downgrade the PG slot. If you'll notice, Portland has been using Jack as a SG along with Blake (big clue there...why go after Blake if Jack is starter worthy?) while Roy sits out; visiting their boards you'll see they don't think he has very good court vision but is a very good shooter/defender. The kicker of course is LMA.

The reality is that we have no one short of Emeka or Crash that would get JUST LMA. They are silly high on the dude (he scored 29 the other night) and rightfully so...he'd have been perfect teamed with Mek. They wouldn't give him up for the 3rd pick in the draft (Horford).

Jefferson can't be had either. Look at his situation in Minny like ours was in our 2nd year with Mek. We wouldn't trade him unless it was just stupid not to...they'll be the same way.

Felton/Ammo/'08 1st might get a big man back, but not 2 starters at the 4/5 and the 1. We'd be selling "low", and we just can't afford to do that...we have few enough assets as it is.

[spectre]

Bonnell put this up right after the game:


“Coach says he wants the (power forward and center) to go to the boards, and the (shooting guard and small forward) to run,’’ said Gerald Wallace (34 points, 10 rebounds).

“We want to be up-tempo, but if we need all five guys boxing out (to get a rebound) that’s going to be tough.’’

Coach is experimenting, trying to find what will work and what won't. He played mostly wings today and used Mek at the C...something we KNOW he's loathe to do.

Preseason games are for playing around to see what works. Give it 10 games (even tho I think it could take 20)...if we're getting outrebounded like we did today then yes...we will have to do something.

[ohara831]

Spectre: OK, I respect that viewpoint. The only reason I mentioned Jefferson was from something I wrote earlier in the Thread. On the ESPN Insider for NBA Rumors, it mentioned MINN was offering Al the ext of 5 yr for $50 mil. He is 22, avg 16 pts and 11 or 12 brd. He is a known commodity as he was the best Boston had other than Pierce. He wont take that $ to stay in MINN, so he would become a RFA after 10/31. That is why I think MINN may move him if someone steps up to the plate.

[dav7z]

I want us to run to but damn we can't run if we can't get a board. Bottom line we got to box out and rebound be for we start running . We need at the very least three hiting the board with two back . I WOULD RATHER FOUR HIT THE BOARDS.................

[spectre]

Spectre: OK, I respect that viewpoint. The only reason I mentioned Jefferson was from something I wrote earlier in the Thread. On the ESPN Insider for NBA Rumors, it mentioned MINN was offering Al the ext of 5 yr for $50 mil. He is 22, avg 16 pts and 11 or 12 brd. He is a known commodity as he was the best Boston had other than Pierce. He wont take that $ to stay in MINN, so he would become a RFA after 10/31. That is why I think MINN may move him if someone steps up to the plate.


I understand your reasoning, but IMO Minny's taking the same route Cleveland is with Varejao, Milwaukee with Charlie Bell and like we did with Crash as well as what we're probably doing with Mek. There's really no under cap money out there...GSW has that 10 million exception but all signs are saying they'll just let the bulk expire and use the room to resign their own guys.

The power is mostly in the hands of the teams so far as restricted free agents (and FAs to an extent due to not much cap room out there). Lowball the offer and if a team puts out an offer sheet, say thanks and then match.

Not saying it won't backfire, because it certainly could. That just seems to be the route most teams are choosing to take.

[spectre]

I love how we were talking so positive about the Bobcats yesterday, but after one off-day for us, there's a gigantic problem that can only be fixed by trading.

Anyway, we should have signed Voskul to a 2-3 year contract. If possible, I wish we could make a trade for him. I don't think we need to panic that much, all we need to do, in my opinion, is sign a back up caliber big man. Heck, I'd be fine with Watkins.


You think this is bad you should have seen the Knicks board last night after losing to the Celtics by 40.  :hysterical:

It was a HUGE mistake to let Voskuhl walk.  Statically he was one of our worst players, but he could at least block out and rebound.

[ohara831]

Spectre: OK, I respect that viewpoint. The only reason I mentioned Jefferson was from something I wrote earlier in the Thread. On the ESPN Insider for NBA Rumors, it mentioned MINN was offering Al the ext of 5 yr for $50 mil. He is 22, avg 16 pts and 11 or 12 brd. He is a known commodity as he was the best Boston had other than Pierce. He wont take that $ to stay in MINN, so he would become a RFA after 10/31. That is why I think MINN may move him if someone steps up to the plate.


I understand your reasoning, but IMO Minny's taking the same route Cleveland is with Varejao, Milwaukee with Charlie Bell and like we did with Crash as well as what we're probably doing with Mek. There's really no under cap money out there...GSW has that 10 million exception but all signs are saying they'll just let the bulk expire and use the room to resign their own guys.

The power is mostly in the hands of the teams so far as restricted free agents (and FAs to an extent due to not much cap room out there). Lowball the offer and if a team puts out an offer sheet, say thanks and then match.

Not saying it won't backfire, because it certainly could. That just seems to be the route most teams are choosing to take.

__________________________________________________ __________

OK Spectre, I understand where your coming from on that now. Yeah, I can see what your saying about RFA and status. I just think it could not hurt for Front Office to pick up the phone and call to inquire. That's all. If MINN says No, then so be it.

Again, I love our team and want us to win so badly. When we play well, we are good. But when a couple of people are off, we do not have the fire power to win a game where we are not playing at our best. To become a chanpion, you have to be able to win even when you are not playing your best. That is the only reason why I would entertain any trade discussios - if and only if it made us better.

[dav7z]

Wow the Charlotte ovserver is saying trade Wallace for a big man . It could actually work though it would be very risky.

http://www.charlotte.com/507/story/325179.html



How much faith do we have i Ammo , Dudley and Carroll. It may not be a bad move depending on who got. My self i would rather have J- Rich for trade but i think Wallace has more value. At first i said no way then i started thinking about it . It would all depend on who that player was.

[x2pacalypse]

rebounding is about 5% skill 60% bunnies and 35% mental toughness

apparently ...at least as of now...ryan hollins lacks 40% of the equation...give it time

going out and getting a bruiser isn't going to help if we aren't using proper form to box out...just let coach do his job...if we are still having trouble by say game 7 or 8 then yes...then we can panic

[spectre]

Wow the Charlotte ovserver is saying trade Wallace for a big man . It could actually work though it would be very risky.

http://www.charlotte.com/507/story/325179.html

How much faith do we have i Ammo , Dudley and Carroll. It may not be a bad move depending on who got. My self i would rather have J- Rich for trade but i think Wallace has more value. At first i said no way then i started thinking about it . It would all depend on who that player was.


Oh...my...God.

I've seen some overreacting on almost all the Bobcats' boards, but I've seen NO ONE suggest trading Crash for a big man. Hello...who got the most rebounds for the Bobcats yesterday???

That one has to be the tops.

Now...to add some fuel to the fire:


Is Portland trying to move Channing Frye? At the very least the Blazers tried moving him to Chicago for Tyrus Thomas.

Let me rephrase that: The Bulls are so enthusiastic about Thomas I'm not sure the Blazers ever got to make a legit offer. But I do hear Frye is being shopped. Portland lobbied the Knicks hard for David Lee as partial payment in the Zach Randolph trade and it was either accept Frye or get stuck with Randolph's $61M, four-year tab.

Ammo/ '08 1st (protected) for Frye/Jack or Rodriguez.

[ohara831]

I was about to Post the ESPN Insider news that now they say Portland is trying to move Channing Frye, but I see it was just done. I did not read the Observor article as saying we should trade Gerald. It was basically pointing out who we have and who is good. it jsut said Crash is our conscience on the team - our heart and soul. I agree with that, but it did not actually say he's the only commodity we can trade. Maybe I just did not read it the way you did. Anyway, I don't see many scenarios making us a better team if we trade Crash. It would have to include a solid big to play with Oak, and a PG who could push Ray. Frye and Jack for Crash? I don't know if I like that at all. LMA and Jack for Crash? I might do that guys. Maybe.

[Mustachio]

really all depends on Sean May. does the team think he can be the future PF for the rest of his career after this surgery??

if so... it might be a situation where we just do what we can this year and see how it goes.

I actually prefer that... maybe. we still dont really know what this team has to offer. Its only been preseason so far. coach may have just been trying to see how well we can push and that led to the lack of boards. Im just saying.... we need to calm down a bit and see how things go, before we start shipping off our best players for a stop gap big man.

[Mustachio]

Jason Richardson, Adam Morrison, Othella Harrington, Sean May

for

Kobe Bryant, Kwame Brown.

Felton, Bryant, Wallace, Okafor, Brown.... oh my dear god.

[spectre]

really all depends on Sean May. does the team think he can be the future PF for the rest of his career after this surgery??

if so... it might be a situation where we just do what we can this year and see how it goes.

I actually prefer that... maybe. we still dont really know what this team has to offer. Its only been preseason so far. coach may have just been trying to see how well we can push and that led to the lack of boards. Im just saying.... we need to calm down a bit and see how things go, before we start shipping off our best players for a stop gap big man.


I do agree with a lot of this, but I'd also like to balance the roster a little bit.

Fabio is getting NO burn here in preseason and I see it hurting what little stock he'd built up at the end of last year. Someone (I think) mentioned that Portland inquired about Fabio last year?

How's about switching in Fabio for Ammo in my deal above? The salaries barely equal out, but they pass the trade checker straight up. If Portland did inquire, maybe it'll only take a 2nd as kicker?

If Coach V isn't going to use him I'd rather trade him then let his value plummet.

[ohara831]

That would be the end of the race in the East. I think I would do that trade!
Also, just read the article in full. Sorenson is saying trading Gerald is our best option to get something good in return, then he says it likely would not work. Gee, I could wipe my butt with Poison Ivy, it would get the job done, but in the end it would not work.

[ohara831]

Fabio and o8 1st (protected) for Frye and either Rodriguez or Jack? That sounds very enticing.

[spectre]

Nah, that won't work salary wise...should have clarified.

Fabio for Frye straight up...us maybe tossing them a 2nd IF they did inquire about him and are interested. We'd also be taking on a million or so in salary. The other idea had us losing a million or so, which I thought might entice Jordan to waive Harrington to gain the extra roster spot, as the net loss would only be a million give or take.


Also, just read the article in full. Sorenson is saying trading Gerald is our best option to get something good in return, then he says it likely would not work. Gee, I could wipe my butt with Poison Ivy, it would get the job done, but in the end it would not work.

:biggrin: That was good!

[dav7z]

Trading Wallace sceares me . I agree he is probrly the only player we got who can bring in star material. Another thing Wallace probely puts more buts in the seat than any other player we have.
If we that close to the playoffs and we just have to go this year. And we have to have a big. I would rather dangle draft picks at to get the big we want. I think Morrison, Dudley or Carroll and a protected could get Frye but not LMA. Jefferson would be a good addition to but it would take at least The same for him as it would for FRYE.
It's no way May will ever help us after three knee seregys. So if we could add him in any trade it would be nice.
I Would do a Morrison , May and a protected 2009 1st for Jefferson. Might even do it for a Frye. The combined salery would pay either player long term well close. With Frye or Jefferson . We could acuire BATASTA TO FILL THE ROSTER. It fill the holes we have in the middle with out loseing a key player [Wallace]
Or coach can coach thease guys to box out and send more than just two players to the boards. Kids love to cherry pick at 12 i dont think its going to work in the pros . GET the damn board first.

[dav7z]

The Gastonia Gazettes take on yesterdays game.


http://www.gastongazette.com/sports/wallace_11689___article.html/bobcats_vincent.html

[bizzlecatz]

Guys,

Plaese tell me what is so special about Channing Fraye, that would make you mention Crash or Ammo names in a trade for him.

[ohara831]

Dudley and his toe! Man, I hope it is not something like Turf Toe. That can take a long time to heal. You see something like that affect 1/2 a football player's entire season.

[ohara831]

Guys,

Plaese tell me what is so special about Channing Fraye, that would make you mention Crash or Ammo names in a trade for him.



__________________________________________________ _________

He is only 24, can play the 4 or 5 and avg 11 pts and 6 brds. If you combine him with Oak, that is a solid front. But, I do not believe anyone was mentioning Crash in that equation. Also, we were including getting Jack or Rodriguez as a PG to push Ray or at least spell him as part of any deal. Just ideas to see if they would make us better. Some will think yes, so will think no. Does not hurt to discuss.

[Muttley]

Wow... this topic got heated!

In general, I think trading the face of your franchise for ANYONE else is not a good idea and will set you back at least half a season while players and coaches have to feel each other out all over again. That's why there's the preseason. And Hey, guess what, we're still IN the preseason! We're probably fine with who we have now.

That being said, I do like Must's idea to trade for Brown and Bryant. Brilliant! Now, how do you suppose we actually pull it off? It would take convincing not only Buss, but also Bryant to come here. Though after we pulled it off, with MJ in charge, it would mean that it would probably be a matter of time before Jackson came to Charlotte to coach. If you're into that sort of thing.

[Mustachio]

Walter Hermann and Sean May

for

Channing Frye and Jarret Jack.

espn.com trade machine approves. do you. would they?


i know yall wanna rid us of Ammo... but it wont work for Portland. Ammo for Frye.. or Ammo and Sean May for Frye and Jack wont work.

Fabio works because his salary works for portland and its a one year deal.

[ohara831]

Jason Richardson, Adam Morrison, Othella Harrington, Sean May

for

Kobe Bryant, Kwame Brown.

Felton, Bryant, Wallace, Okafor, Brown.... oh my dear god.

__________________________________________________ ________

Mustachio: Not bad, except I think MJ would jump off a building rather than bring Kwame in again - he got shelled for that the first time in Washington. Now, if you give us Bynum in that deal, heck yeah!

[dav7z]

Dudley and his toe! Man, I hope it is not something like Turf Toe. That can take a long time to heal. You see something like that affect 1/2 a football player's entire season. The problem is turf toe . Thats why it;s taking so long to heal. Just want REP YOU UP FOR CONSTANT GOOD POST. After we beat the Lakers all this trade talk will be over. Have you noticed Coach V calling guys out after bad preformaces. He kinda chalanged OAKs game in the last couple articals . Is this a good or bad thing your openion?

[ohara831]

Walter Hermann and Sean May

for

Channing Frye and Jarret Jack.

espn.com trade machine approves. do you. would they?


i know yall wanna rid us of Ammo... but it wont work for Portland. Ammo for Frye.. or Ammo and Sean May for Frye and Jack wont work.

Fabio works because his salary works for portland and its a one year deal.

__________________________________________________ _________

I would do that in a heartbeat; I just do not think Portland would do it. I think they like Herrmann, but the May thing wont fly unless they look at it as an expiring contract. I have serious doubts about May playing again. If an athlete is in shape before microfracture surgery and has a great work ethic for staying in shape, they can do it - look at Amare Staudamire (the jackass). May has never proven to be one to keep himself in shape. With having to sit for 6 months and eat nothing but doughnuts and tweenkies, he will baloon up like Tractor Traylor - and just float away.

[Muttley]

Coaching involves a mix of cutting down AND building up. It's important to challenge your players to play to their potential, but if you do that, you also have to commend them when the players do remedy the situation. I think Mek will have a better game in California and Coach V will let him hear about that too.

[ohara831]

Thanks Dav7z. Yes, I did see how the Coach challenged our Bigs, specifically Oak. I like a Coach who will give praise when it's due, and will not pull punches when it is due. I think Oak is the kind of man and player to respond well.
I do however think that we are going to have to do something to shake things up. We need a new attitude, some toughness that will fire up the butts in the seats and the players on the bench and floor. I want someone who will bring the attitude, offense and defense of an Alonzo Mourning. God, when I think of him, I still get upset with Shinn!!!

[ohara831]

Muttley, I agree whole heartedly.

[Mustachio]

ok ok ok i got one.. my first lakers trade wouldnt work salary wise ... but this would!

Jason Richardson, Walter Hermann, Primoz Brezec

for

Kobe Bryant, Marc Gasol.

we keep everything we ever need... they get another 7 foot scorer and a star to replace kobe.

felton, bryant, crash, okafor, Gasol/hollins/davidson

all we really lose is jrich and hermann.. but you gain the black mamba.
Gasol for Primoz is a wash really.

[ohara831]

Oh my, my Rep has been up'd to a 4, and know I'm Othello. I have been lobbying for him to retire or trade him - is the administrator telling me something? Yikes.

[spectre]

Walter Hermann and Sean May

for

Channing Frye and Jarret Jack.

espn.com trade machine approves. do you. would they?


i know yall wanna rid us of Ammo... but it wont work for Portland. Ammo for Frye.. or Ammo and Sean May for Frye and Jack wont work.

Fabio works because his salary works for portland and its a one year deal.


May has NO value.

I'm curious as to why you say Ammo doesn't work for Portland but Fabo does? They've had questions at the 3 for the last couple of years. Webster IS doing better this preseason but all their fans consider him to have no basketball IQ.

I see Fabio's attraction as bringing something a little unorthodox...whereas Ammo would have more "upside".

The only conceivable deal that nets BOTH a PG and Frye is Ammo IMO salarywise...Fabio could net just Frye straight up.

Does anyone see the organization bringing in another PG while we have Touche' and DA already under salary (not to mention having to cut someone in order to put him on the roster)? I think if it's a no brainer they might do it...otherwise no.

[ohara831]

ok ok ok i got one.. my first lakers trade wouldnt work salary wise ... but this would!

Jason Richardson, Walter Hermann, Primoz Brezec

for

Kobe Bryant, Marc Gasol.

we keep everything we ever need... they get another 7 foot scorer and a star to replace kobe.

felton, bryant, crash, okafor, Gasol/hollins/davidson

all we really lose is jrich and hermann.. but you gain the black mamba.
Gasol for Primoz is a wash really.

__________________________________________________ __________
Genius! Pure Genius! Get Buss on the phone and see if he'll bite. If Kobe wont do it, we can do like they did in the movie Celtic Pride, grab him for a few days, make friends, and all will be fine.

[dvdbumpus]

ok ok ok i got one.. my first lakers trade wouldnt work salary wise ... but this would!

Jason Richardson, Walter Hermann, Primoz Brezec

for

Kobe Bryant, Marc Gasol.

we keep everything we ever need... they get another 7 foot scorer and a star to replace kobe.

felton, bryant, crash, okafor, Gasol/hollins/davidson

all we really lose is jrich and hermann.. but you gain the black mamba.
Gasol for Primoz is a wash really.


We got J-rich for a #8 pick. No way Kobe's value is that low.

[ohara831]

Spectre: You are right about Fabio for Frye straight up. I would personally like to put Touche' in any deal to get Jack. That way, we are giving them a serviceable PG back who is clearly their 3rd stringer and I believe he will be cheaper for them than Jack or Rodriguez.

[ohara831]

I don't know about that Bumpus. They would be getting 2 started in J-Rich and Herrmann, and a 2nd string big man with experience. They really might now reject that out of hand. I do think they would want more though. Remember, he opts out after this year and is gone for nothing.

[spectre]

Touche' can't be traded until December if I remember correctly.  He'd be a throwin only and wouldnt add any value.  I tihnk we'd have to add a 1st to the deal if that was the case...not that I'm averse to that.

The deal put forth by the ESPN guy for Kobe to Charlotte was:


There's speculation about Michael Jordan and Bryant finally coming together in Charlotte. But any deal that would work for all parties would probably have to include Raymond Felton, Adam Morrison and Gerald Wallace, and it's not clear that would get it done.

No way in hell does Fabio/Primoz/JRich get even close.  You guys are also ignoring the fact that Kobe has a no trade clause and has already named the teams he'd go to: Dallas/Chicago/NY.

[ohara831]

Touche' can't be traded until December if I remember correctly. He'd be a throwin only and wouldnt add any value. I tihnk we'd have to add a 1st to the deal if that was the case...not that I'm averse to that.

The deal put forth by the ESPN guy for Kobe to Charlotte was:


There's speculation about Michael Jordan and Bryant finally coming together in Charlotte. But any deal that would work for all parties would probably have to include Raymond Felton, Adam Morrison and Gerald Wallace, and it's not clear that would get it done.

No way in hell does Fabio/Primoz/JRich get even close. You guys are also ignoring the fact that Kobe has a no trade clause and has already named the teams he'd go to: Dallas/Chicago/NY.

__________________________________________________ __________
There is no doubt we would have to sell Kobe on the deal. But, if her were convinced he could get to the Finals, I think he'd go anywhere. He just wants to WIN.
The EXPN deal would have to give us back a PG with Kobe, either Farmar or Crittendon. That would be a huge shake up in things and take a good deal to get use to. Would it make us better?

[ohara831]

Oops. Called Kobe a "her"; he would not like that too much

[davcbow]

Thats alright with me, I call him "cry baby".... :g:

[ohara831]

Yeah, he is; but darn if the man cant play this game! He scores at will it seem. Too bad for Laker fans that the team has not been able to bring in someone to complement him since they lost Shaq. But then again, I cannot stand the Lakers! So good.

[dav7z]

just thinking would a Fabio and a May, Primoz and a 2nd for Frye and Jack work , It sounds like we losing our tails.
1. We clear a roster spot for a player like Batista
2. 2nd we add a quilaty big to go along with Oak in FRYE
3. We add a player to push Felton at the point

They get a nice contract and back up center to replace Frye.
They get a good p/f if he can recover fron his knee problems. At worst a favorable contract
Next they get another solid back up p/f-s/f with another favorable contract. Thats six milion in cap space if they chose to use it. A 2nd round pick is debateable but 2nds is not worth much now days as we probely don't need another 2nd rounder next year.


We would look like this
1. Felton , Jack, Torch,
2. Rich, Carroll, D .Andreson
3. Wallace, Morrison , Dudley
4. OKA , Davidson, Harrington
5. Frye, Batista, Hollins

That line up is ten deep solid, It fills our gapeing holes , With a line up like that . We top four in the playoff race in the east, As we allso might have to cut Harington and take on a bad contract of thairs. I T FREES THEM UP LONG TERM AND SETS US UP LONG TERM. The trade would help both teams. Thoughts

[davcbow]

What I dont like about Kobe is he isnt a team player, he is all for himself and that isnt what we need in Charlotte, I dont care how good he can play when he isnt upset about god knows what.... :g:

Something else about Kobe, wasnt he originally drafted by the Hornets and then he refused to play in Charlotte and that is how he ended up in LALALAND.

[bizzlecatz]

Guys,

Plaese tell me what is so special about Channing Fraye, that would make you mention Crash or Ammo names in a trade for him.





__________________________________________________ _________

He is only 24, can play the 4 or 5 and avg 11 pts and 6 brds. If you combine him with Oak, that is a solid front. But, I do not believe anyone was mentioning Crash in that equation. Also, we were including getting Jack or Rodriguez as a PG to push Ray or at least spell him as part of any deal. Just ideas to see if they would make us better. Some will think yes, so will think no. Does not hurt to discuss.


I thought I was maybe missing something, don't we have this and more in Jermareo Davidson.

I also thought we were looking for a banger.

Thxs Ohara for you response.

[dav7z]

In the trade i just said we keep Ammo get a banger and a nice back up point guard.
OUT, Primoz, May, Fabio, 2nd round pick
In ,Frye , Jack, Batista,

We get a starting five, and a nice back up five at least as good as Primoz. And a very good back up point.
But we lose a lot of cap space and take a chance May is done for.

[ohara831]

Dav7z: The scenario you mentioned is one which I would be happy with and one with which I think we could win our Division and go solidly into the Playoffs. I agree that the team you play out in that scenario would be better than what we currently have on hand. And yes, I do fear that May is done. He is just an expiring Contract. You can read my earlier posts above on my thoughts on May.

Biz: Jermareo does remind me of Frye, except that Frye has been around a few years for experience. And Frye can be had with one of their PG's without giving up Crash. To get LMA from them, we would have to give up Crash.

[bizzlecatz]

Okay, I will admit I just don't want to give up Fabio or Ammo. The way I see it....on nights when our defence is not clicking, maybe our offence will pull us out. We have a lot of scoring power that can be u
sed in different lineups.

Its also puzzling why Portland would want to trade him being that Oden is out for the season. He is a PF/C, and has not played an NBA game for them yet. maybe they see something we don't.

I would like to see Jack on the team.

[ohara831]

I wondered why the rumors of them dangling LMA and then Frye as well. it may have to do with what they see coming down the road salary wise and luxury tax wise. They do have an abundance of PG and they have several serviceable Bigs, even with Oden out.

[dav7z]

Portland is looking for one more loto year and cap space . Olden is enough to make you want to wait another year be for you try to make your run . They will be stacked after next year . And they all ready have so many fives any way.
They looking to move him and i hope M J trts to work somthing out with them as Frye could be a asset for years.
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48628/20071019/frye_already_on_the_block/

[Mustachio]

first of all i was kidding about the kobe trade... just mentioning that it worked in the Trade Machine as far as financing goes. another words... the NBA would sign off on it. not saying kobe or the lakers would.

and spectre:

what im saying about Fabio over Ammo for a trade with Portland.
again.... sure they would want Ammo more than Fabio... but salary wise in a deal involving Frye ... Ammo cannot financially be part of that deal unless they send another contract.

and if you think they are gonna give Frye and Jack for Ammo...well then i dont know

[dav7z]

So Mustachio do you think getting Frye and may be Jack . Would be worth what
Im saying Fabio, Permoz, May, and a 2nd
I dont know how it would work out on a tracker. We would have to eat a bad contract too more than likely.

[spectre]

There were rumors of them dangling LMA? I know they turned down the 3rd pick in this past draft. What did they think that he'd bring back better than Horford?

Most are thinking they offered Frye for TT because LMA & Frye have similar skillsets and were trying to replace Frye with a more agressive inside player...which we don't have to offer.

[ohara831]

Mustachio: What do you think about Frye and Jack or Rodriguez for Adam, a 2nd and a serviceable body who will be an expiring contract? Too much to give up?

[spectre]

first of all i was kidding about the kobe trade... just mentioning that it worked in the Trade Machine as far as financing goes. another words... the NBA would sign off on it. not saying kobe or the lakers would.

and spectre:

what im saying about Fabio over Ammo for a trade with Portland.
again.... sure they would want Ammo more than Fabio... but salary wise in a deal involving Frye ... Ammo cannot financially be part of that deal unless they send another contract.

and if you think they are gonna give Frye and Jack for Ammo...well then i dont know


Ah, sorry, missed this.

I got you now. I was including a lotto protected 1st too, because you're right...we wouldn't get that for just Ammo.

[ohara831]

You know, I'm gaining a new appreciation for the Front Office people. We are only dicussing this on line, and we can hardly agree with "proposed trades" and whether they would help or not. The Front Office guys have to do this for real, with real money, real people and real consequences if the deals do not pan out. Any move they were to make would be greeted by Cheers from some of us and scorn from others who will think the team chemistry was destroyed. What a difficult thing to be able to bring a trade to fruition which pleases all your fans, and still is enticing enough to make the other team pull the trigger. .... I think I must have just had a Zen moment. God, I hope I'm not becoming Phil Jackson.

[dav7z]

Ok Spectre , Mustashio, and all you other guys . Should we go after Frye or not .
IF YES WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TO GET HIM

[ohara831]

Ok Spectre , Mustashio, and all you other guys . Should we go after Frye or not .
IF YES WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TO GET HIM

__________________________________________________ ______

Frye and either Jack or Rodriguez and in return we send them Adam and a 2nd and throw in Othello as a serviceable big with an upcoming expiring Contract. IF they would take Herrmann instead of Adam in that deal, all the better; but I fear it would have to be Adam.

[spectre]

Ok Spectre , Mustashio, and all you other guys . Should we go after Frye or not .
IF YES WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WILL TAKE TO GET HIM

__________________________________________________ ______

Frye and either Jack or Rodriguez and in return we send them Adam and a 2nd and throw in Othello as a serviceable big with an upcoming expiring Contract. IF they would take Herrmann instead of Adam in that deal, all the better; but I fear it would have to be Adam.


Harrington won't work salarywise with Ammo, but he would with Fabio. I think I like either of these three that do work:

Fabio for Frye straight up
Ammo/1st for Frye/Jack or Rodriguez
Fabio/Harrington/1st for Frye/Jack or Rodriguez

I think I like the first one best as we keep our pick.

[Slam]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=3016~2754~3025&teams=22~30~30&te=&cash=

http://www.realgm.com/src_tradechecker/3/

[davcbow]

Congratulations on a successful trade.
Due to Charlotte and Portland being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Charlotte and Portland had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Incoming Players
Sergio Rodriguez
6-3 PG from Spain (Foreign)
3.7 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 3.3 apg in 12.9 minutes
Channing Frye
6-11 PF from Arizona
9.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 0.9 apg in 26.4 minutes
Outgoing Players
Adam Morrison
6-8 SF from Gonzaga
11.8 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.1 apg in 29.9 minutes

Here was my result.... :g:

[ohara831]

Othello and Herrmann for Frye and Jack works according to the ESPN Trade Machine. Would that improve us? Would you do it? Would Portland do it?

[davcbow]

I think we would go for that trade but I dont think Portland would..... :g:

[dvdbumpus]

Othello and Herrmann for Frye and Jack works according to the ESPN Trade Machine. Would that improve us? Would you do it? Would Portland do it?


No way in hell they would do that. The Trade machine works out salaries, not player quality.

Othello is potentially a retired candidate, and Herrmann is not even a clear cut starter for us. Frye is a starter with excellent potential and Jack is a potential starter that handles the ball well. It's too one sided our way.

[Slam]

Frye is not a starter. He'll be behind LMA and Oden at least and maybe even McRoberts.

Jack is fighting for the starting PG gig with Blake, Serge and Green.

I would imagine that the Blzers would LOVE Harrington in a deal because he would provide them with a much needed expiring contract.

[dvdbumpus]

Frye is not a starter. He'll be behind LMA and Oden at least and maybe even McRoberts.

This year he won't due to the Oden injury, because Joel Pryzsoonsoforth and Mcroberts I don't see in a starting lineup. In many other frontcourts he would be a starter(hence, ours).

Jack, I would agree that I think that Blake will probably start. Teams salivate over his proficiency towards directing a team and the ability to not turn the ball over.

Harrington - the expiring contract sure would be nice for them.