Thoughts on Pacers Game

[Edrow]

In the fourth quarter it came....like an unwanted stomach ache when you're out on a date with a pretty girl. I knew it was going to happen. The conditions were perfect. The Bobcats were fighting their way into the lead. The Pacers had called a timeout to settle everybody down. The Lady Cats came onto the floor...and then...."Like a Pony..Come on...Like a Pony...It's alright!". I'm sure everyone around me thought that I was crazy b/c I was laughing so hard. That stupid song just won't go away, I'm not even sure what the hell the guy is even saying. Is it really "Like a pony"? Geez louiz!

Anyways, to answer somebody else's question about J-Rich. No, GS didn't have any secret information on J-Rich (IMO). He's had a two game slump, but it happens to everybody. It's like finding your sea legs on a new, unfamiliar ship. Once you get it, it doesn't go away. Once J-Rich finds his stroke, it's gonna get narsty.

Okafor was an absolute monster last night. As a fan, I enjoy seeing the Cats get defensive rebounds, but I REALLY enjoy seeing them get offensive ones. Oaktown was all over the place last night.

Matt Carroll has found his stroke, and I think we needed it last night. He had a couple of really good shots from outside.

I love how Dudley plays. He seems to be really physical. We need somebody like that. More importantly though, he's got that youthful fire in him. I really dug how he tried to get everybody fired up.

Finally, Crash was a nightmare for the Pacers late in the game. It got to the point where he was going to do what he wanted, and nobody was going to stop him.

The crowd, although still too lean, was actually pretty enthusiastic and involved in the game.

All in all a good win for our guys.

-Edrow

[ohara831]

I was happy with 17 pts from Ray, and only 2 TO's. But I was not so pleased with only 4 assists. As the PG, he has to be far more productive when it comes to getting the ball to the scorer in position. I'm not upset with him, I just know he needs to be more productive with the assists part of his game.
He has to get better there if we are to take this club to the next level. IMO.

[spectre]

I was happy with 17 pts from Ray, and only 2 TO's.  But I was not so pleased with only 4 assists.  As the PG, he has to be far more productive when it comes to getting the ball to the scorer in position.  I'm not upset with him, I just know he needs to be more productive with the assists part of his game.
He has to get better there if we are to take this club to the next level.  IMO.


Ohara you realize that the Pacers were fouling everyone in the paint right?  If that hadn't happened Felts would have had at least 10 assists.  Mek went to the line 13 times and Crash went 15...somebody had to get it to them (esp. Mek) in scoring position.

Guy can't seem to get a break. He's been the best player we've had until last night yet every little thing is critiqued. I know what's driving it, but since that's been going on since we drafted the guy I also know it'll never stop.

That being said, V REALLY needs to bring in that FT specialist.  One of our primary goals is to keep Mek more involved...that won't work so well if he's shooting less than 50% from the line.

Nice recap Edrow!  You should put in for Bonnell's job...much more entertaining to read!

Y'all need to be a little less quick to throw players/coaches under the bus after a game or two.  Everybody has off games and bad streaks and JRich is no different.  Look at his career stat line...he's NEVER shot as bad as he is currently, esp. over the last few seasons (he played injured that last year and STILL shot 42%).  Crash has sucked up til the 2nd half of last night too, but we KNOW that won't continue.

[Keetch]

As a team, we had 19 assists to the Pacers 17; with McInnis leading the team with 7. Otherwise, Felton had 4, Carroll 3, Wallace and Dudley 2 apiece.

When a team is moving the ball well, everyone gets some assists, not just the PG. As you all have noted, what we may need more is for our bigs to get a few assists on pass outs.

Even with only 4 assists, Felton was the CLEAR floor leader during the Pacers game; even if McInnis brought the ball up court. Don't know, but everytime Ray has the ball I feel better. He's exuding tremendous confidence and even a little swagger. Overall, Felton had a VERY sweet game. No way we had a prayer without him.

[Keetch]

I've been pretty skeptical about Felton, but I'm coming around to the belief that he may become a very good NBA point guard, or in fact we may be SEEING the emergence of a very good NBA point guard right now.

That even though he's playing alongside McInnis lol. Not a crit on Jeff at all, who is doing great, but Felton is the game-maker, Jeff the role player. I'm sure Jeff doesn't mind at all.

So far Felton's shooting percentage is 46% with 6.5 dimes per game. The shooting percentage is big improvement for him, while the assists are down from 7.0 last year. I'll take those stats considering the 3 guard offense we're often playing - so long as others are moving the ball.

[ohara831]

Spectre and Keetch:
Dont get me wrong. I am a big Ray fan and hope he reaches the next level. My analysis of his game is made as a fan of his. I hope he reaches the next level and becomes an elite PG. But I sometimes think some of the comments I read from his supporters are comments made "looking through rose colored glasses." He is not one of the elite - yet. We can still be a fan and be suportively critical cant we? Like I've said about J-Rich, he has proven to be a big time scorer the past 3 seasons. He started off hot with 2 good games, then he's had 3 bad games in a row. If you look at my comments over the past week, I have stated repeatedly that he will find his groove again and start popping the points again.**But the difference between J-Rich and Ray is that J-Rich already reached that higher level in the league, while Ray is still trying to get there. This is his 3rd year and he has the reigns. I expect he will raise the level of his game, and I have the confidence in him. All I have been saying is "Give him this season to show us he can do it." We can evaluate further at the end of this season.

[spectre]

That's all well and good, but your point isn't valid. You question the amount of assists yet ignore that the Pacers fouled Mek almost every time he got the ball in the paint!

He made 2 great passes to Primoz in the 1st half yet on one Primoz didn't move to where the opening was (that was one of those 2 TOs) and on the other he caught it then walked. He made at LEAST 2 drives and dishes to Mek in the 1st half, but each time Mek was hammered and went to the line.

When JRich and Crash aren't hitting their outside shots, the ONLY outside threat in that starting group is Felton.


But I sometimes think some of the comments I read from his supporters are comments made "looking through rose colored glasses."

You make an invalid point but instead of addressing my post you insinuate homerism? Why not tell me how he should get more assists when no outside shots are falling and they foul anyone in the paint due to our lackluster FT shooting instead?

It has nothing to do with being "supporter". It's what is actually happening on the court.

[spectre]

I've been pretty skeptical about Felton, but I'm coming around to the belief that he may become a very good NBA point guard, or in fact we may be SEEING the emergence of a very good NBA point guard right now.

That even though he's playing alongside McInnis lol. Not a crit on Jeff at all, who is doing great, but Felton is the game-maker, Jeff the role player. I'm sure Jeff doesn't mind at all.

So far Felton's shooting percentage is 46% with 6.5 dimes per game. The shooting percentage is big improvement for him, while the assists are down from 7.0 last year. I'll take those stats considering the 3 guard offense we're often playing - so long as others are moving the ball.


A bunch of us had this discussion a year or so ago on a now defunct forum.

How many teams that have won a championship had a PG who averaged more than 10 assists a game? In recent memory only Magic comes to mind. Most teams that have success move the ball a lot, and everyone gets assists.

I'd much rather see 6 from Felts, 4/5 from Crash & JRich and 2 or 3 from Mek vs. 12 from the starting PG.

Felton will become really good once he develops poise...and a big part of that is knowing when to run and when not to. He mentioned in the write up that he's starting to learn that. From what I've seen this season vs. last is he really is "starting to learn".

[Keetch]

Great points Spectre, I'd forgotten about those missed assist opportunities, but you're definitely dead-on. Ohara I understand where you're coming from; Felton has much to prove, so lets all enjoy the show and hope for the very best!

Now THAT'S homerism :D

[ohara831]

Spectre: You want me to prove my point? OK. McGinnis had 7 assists to Ray's 4. OK. McGinnis. I'm talking MCGINNIS!!!
OK, enough said I would think. If McGinnis can get 7, then Ray can get 8. Valid point made. Just like Keetch said, Felton has much to prove. I beleive he can prove to us by continuing to get better. My whole point is "he aint there yet". If you are totally satisfied with him at this current level, then you are accepting a very good PG rather than wanting a great PG. I want a great PG.

[123together]

it clicked in the 4th quarter, they played defense, wallace attacked the basket AND knocked down some 3s. okafor was steadily producing throughout the game. it was good to see, cuz they looked horrible for 2 straight games.

obviously the home crowd that included 123together, captaincrunch and david lee didn't hurt either ;)

[spectre]

Spectre: You want me to prove my point? OK. McGinnis had 7 assists to Ray's 4. OK. McGinnis. I'm talking MCGINNIS!!!
OK, enough said I would think. If McGinnis can get 7, then Ray can get 8. Valid point made. Just like Keetch said, Felton has much to prove. I beleive he can prove to us by continuing to get better. My whole point is "he aint there yet". If you are totally satisfied with him at this current level, then you are accepting a very good PG rather than wanting a great PG. I want a great PG.


Yeah, Touche' got 7 assists...the first two was after JO and Foster checked out and Harrison and Murphy checked in in the 1st quarter...both were to Mek. He then didn't get another assist until the very end of the 3rd...right after Crash found his jumpshot. In the 4th when everyone was scoring he got 4 and Felton got 3 while playing a combo role.

Touche' didn't do anything in the 2nd or most of the 3rd...because we had no outside shot and they were packing the paint/fouling! Not that he had a lot of burn, but it reinforces (as well as all the FTs we shot) my point about how they were playing us.

So no...I don't think the point is valid. The amount of FTs we attempted can't be ignored, esp. Mek's...which means somebody was feeding him the ball.

I've NEVER said that I was just satisfied...much less TOTALLY satisfied with our PG play. My comment was about nitpicking everything possible about the guy when he's actually playing a pretty decent game.

[x2pacalypse]

i was watching the nba.com highlights from the game and i realized 2 things about gerald wallace

the analyists called him crash, and he was wearing his headband, which i don't remember seeing him wear for a long time

[davcbow]

One thing Ive noticed that when we get fouled alot Felt's assists are low, he dont get an assist if for example he passes to Mek and then Mek gets fouled and goes to the line, thats a lost assist. Now to see what Felts actually does start a new catagory of missed assist attempts and I bet its high for Felts, so I agree with Spectre on this issue. Once we start hitting the free throws every time or close to it, they will stop fouling us in the paint as much and all the assist catagory will go up for Felts....My conclusion is we need a free throw coach..... :g:

[Mustachio]

First of all. Last night was great. We played like an elite team last night. before you call me crazy hear me out.
We couldnt function most of the night it looked bad in the first half even though we were hangin around down by 3. then in the 3rd quarter we let them get up by 10. Anyway good teams can hang around and beat you when it matters. I think thats what we did last night. We amped up and won.

Secondly. Mek was amazing last night. I mentioned to the guys around me that Mek had to at least have 10-12 rebounds.... Then looked at one of the screens and saw he had 21. in the third. to go with 23 points. once we all picked our jaws up off the ground we carried on cheering. great game from him.

now onto the point guard situation. spectre i realize your a tarheel fan and a felton fan but your definetly lookin at Felton with carolina blue glasses on. the bottom line is... IF as you say FELTON has been our best player up to this point. How can you justify that statement when in almost the entire second half McInnis was playing Feltons position? If Felton is our best player up to this point. why isnt he playing his position? Not saying Felton is playing bad at all...not even close. But to say he doesnt have room to improve and that hes been our best player is just wrong. hes still taking too many shots. regardless i too love Felton and believe hes the best option for us at PG... but hes definetly got to get better overall if were gonna push for the playoffs.

[Mustachio]

something else that bothered me last night was Gerald Wallace. At times i feel like hes being a little selfish and kind of getting away from the TEAM aspect that makes this unselfish Bobcats team go. I kind of feel like he is forcing things because of his contract.

case in point last night... gerald creates a turnover... like gerald always does. gerald starts the fast break... like gerald always does. then Jrich goes streaking down the floor for the EASY and i mean EASY alley-oop opportunity. but instead of lobbing it up for the easy two points Gerald charges into the lane and gets fouled while missing the shot. then proceeds to miss both Free throws. wasting an opportunity.

im not freakin out yet and calling him out, just mentioning some things i saw last night that kind of irked me. im sure its not a new trend just maybe me freaking out.
But last night it looked as though Gerald was thinking
"this is MY team" instead of "this is OUR team."

[spectre]

But to say he doesnt have room to improve and that hes been our best player is just wrong.  hes still taking too many shots.

Please point to any post where I said he doesn't have room to improve.

Out of curiosity, what's the rank of who's taken the most shots this year...and what's the rank of the player's field goal %? I don't know, and don't have time to look.

Who's been more consistent throughout the games?  Crash has shot like crap and been a turnover machine, Mek has been a wimp and "out of it" for the most part until last night and JRich sat out the 4th quarter because he hasn't been able to hit the side of a barn the last two games.

BTW, Felts is my 3rd (4th if JRich could ever take off) most favorite player on the team...and unless I'm mistaken none of those guys went to Carolina.

[spectre]

I wanted to clarify on this best player thing...I'm NOT saying he's our best player at all; I'm saying he's played the best CONSISTENTLY so far.

Crash/Mek...JRich......Felton is probably how I'd rank the talent.

Sorry if that's caused confusion.

[ohara831]

First of all. Last night was great. We played like an elite team last night. before you call me crazy hear me out.
We couldnt function most of the night it looked bad in the first half even though we were hangin around down by 3. then in the 3rd quarter we let them get up by 10. Anyway good teams can hang around and beat you when it matters. I think thats what we did last night. We amped up and won.

Secondly. Mek was amazing last night. I mentioned to the guys around me that Mek had to at least have 10-12 rebounds.... Then looked at one of the screens and saw he had 21. in the third. to go with 23 points. once we all picked our jaws up off the ground we carried on cheering. great game from him.

now onto the point guard situation. spectre i realize your a tarheel fan and a felton fan but your definetly lookin at Felton with carolina blue glasses on. the bottom line is... IF as you say FELTON has been our best player up to this point. How can you justify that statement when in almost the entire second half McInnis was playing Feltons position? If Felton is our best player up to this point. why isnt he playing his position? Not saying Felton is playing bad at all...not even close. But to say he doesnt have room to improve and that hes been our best player is just wrong. hes still taking too many shots. regardless i too love Felton and believe hes the best option for us at PG... but hes definetly got to get better overall if were gonna push for the playoffs.
__________________________________________________ _

That is precisely my point. Thank you Mustachio for making my point better than I was able to do. Ray is good, and I believe he can be great. I just want to see MJ and Coach push him to the point where he plays great.

Let me say one think as a compromise. I beleive we ALL at times sometimes lavish too much praise on our guys, sometimes more than they earned. At the same time, we can ALL often be more critical of them, more so than they deserve. In both cases, I think it is because WE ALL love the Bobcats and want them to win EVERY time. Fair enough?

[x2pacalypse]

i think we should stop worrying about specific players and start concentrating on our free throws more, we've been lucky so far and not lost any because of them, but eventually it's going to happen

as for the crash alley oop selfish thing, if i was him i wouldn't alley oop it in a close game either, because what if j-rich missed? then they would both look like assholes for doing it, did u notice when he had a breakaway i think it was 73-71 pacers, he went up for the dunk, but didn't do anything flashy, if he did and missed, wow that would have been bad, but he just did a solid dunk and tied it up at 73, i believe gerald wallace is one of the most selfless players on the team, although its not like any of them are selfish

[ziggy]

Nice recap Edrow! You should put in for Bonnell's job...much more entertaining to read!

I agree with Spectre whole heartedly, your recap beats the hell out of Bonnell's. Its even front page worthy (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/joomla/) :biggrin:

[Edrow]

Wohoo! Thanks guys. I know my stuff isn't exactly stat crunching style, but I like writing about the funnier aspects of sports. I'll try to write at least a little light hearted something after each game I go to.

-Edrow

[spectre]

I should apologize for hijacking the post, but it did originate about last night's game.

Last night:

Crash - 21 shots...38% FG
Mek - 14 shots...71% FG
JRich - 10 shots...20% FG
Felts - 10 shots...50% FG

Nov. 6th:

Crash - 12 shots...33% FG
JRich - 11 shots...36% FG
Felts - 11 shots...36% FG
Mek - 6 shots...0 FG

Nov. 4th:

JRich - 16 shots...63% FG
Felts - 14 shots...50% FG
Mek - 13 shots...54% FG
Crash - 11 shots...36% FG

Nov. 2th:

JRich - 19 shots...42% FG
Crash - 16 shots...63% FG
Felts - 13 shots...46% FG
Mek - 11 shots...64% FG

Still think he's shooting too much?  Looks to me like all 4 are getting shots, and Felts hasn't taken the most yet.  He's also never had the lowest % in any game, yet we want him to shoot less?

Pretty fundamental, but I'll throw this out anyway.  If you have no outside game the opponent will play off you and pack the paint...therefore in order to get your big guy room to operate someone MUST hit some outside shots.  If JRich isn't hitting like the last two games, who in the starting lineup can shoot from outside?

Give you a hint: it's the only starter who's shooting over 50% from 3, and it's also the only one who's shooting it over 40%.

Now look at the Philly game, chk out the number of 3s we hit and you'll realize how a subpar team can blow us out.  Crash's jumper finally connecting is also what opened it up for the blowout in the 4th last night.

Still haven't gotten a response about all the FTs and how Mek was able to get in the position to get fouled, but no matter.  Going by the boxscore he only had 4 assists, and if that's as far as one would like to take it there's no skin off my nose.

But Touche'...he's the man!

Almost forgot...do you really see the reason Touche' is getting minutes as a defciency of Felton's? All the guy does is bring it across the timeline and then throw it to him; Felton is the one who starts the offense.

[Edrow]

No worries for me, if my post gets hijacked then it must mean that I said at least one minute thing that acted as a catalyst for a good ole fashioned sports debate to get started.

[TheBeagle]

One thing Ive noticed that when we get fouled alot Felt's assists are low, he dont get an assist if for example he passes to Mek and then Mek gets fouled and goes to the line, thats a lost assist. Now to see what Felts actually does start a new catagory of missed assist attempts and I bet its high for Felts, so I agree with Spectre on this issue. Once we start hitting the free throws every time or close to it, they will stop fouling us in the paint as much and all the assist catagory will go up for Felts....My conclusion is we need a free throw coach..... :g:
The most logically sound argument I've read since the Socratic Dialogues!!! Hyperbole notwithstanding, I agree! :wink:

[TheBeagle]

something else that bothered me last night was Gerald Wallace. At times i feel like hes being a little selfish and kind of getting away from the TEAM aspect that makes this unselfish Bobcats team go. I kind of feel like he is forcing things because of his contract.

case in point last night... gerald creates a turnover... like gerald always does. gerald starts the fast break... like gerald always does. then Jrich goes streaking down the floor for the EASY and i mean EASY alley-oop opportunity. but instead of lobbing it up for the easy two points Gerald charges into the lane and gets fouled while missing the shot. then proceeds to miss both Free throws. wasting an opportunity.

im not freakin out yet and calling him out, just mentioning some things i saw last night that kind of irked me. im sure its not a new trend just maybe me freaking out.
But last night it looked as though Gerald was thinking
"this is MY team" instead of "this is OUR team."
Must', I love you, man, but I don't think your analysis is right this time. Even though his shooting percentage is struggling right now, I think GW has been the most consistently aggressive player thus far. If JRich had 1/4 the desire to get to the basket and draw contact, or finish with a monster slam, it would be heaven. Yes, GW has settled for some jumpers thus far, but by and large he is our best post player, and obviously the best player at breaking down his man and getting to the basket. Yes, I'm a GW homer, but I think I'm being pretty objective here. I even suffered through the misery of the Philly game on tape since I couldn't catch it live, and GW played his ass off, one of the very few who did that night. There were at least 5 non-calls when he would blow by his defender, attack the basket, and get fouled without an whistle whatsoever. Play by play man, Steve Martin even pointed this out. Also, he made some really good interior passes some of which were finished, others not; but regardless, he was looking for his teammates.

At this early point in the season, I think GW is our best/most consistent offense, and until some of the others come around, I'm fine with GW asserting himself.....within the offense, which I believe he has done.

I appreciate your observations, but you have nothing to worry about with GW!!

[Chris#3]

Hmmm. Imagine G~Dub starts attempting as many shots as Kobe does a night. :g: 2 words: Instant Superstar. Stats. 25 ppg, 6 reb, 2 stl, 1 blk, 3 ast, 45 FG%, 28 3pt%, 3 TO, 70 Ft%. :o