Ray is not a PG

[ohara831]

OK, I know some of you are not going to like this, but it needs saying. Ray is not a true PG. He is not capable of it over a full season. If he were, McGinnis would not be playing so much PG with Ray in the game.
Ray: 16 pts, 5 assists and 5 TO's. A few of the points came at the end when game was over.
McGinnis: 8 pts, 6 assists and 2 TO's

Ray wants to be a 2 Guard, and occasionally spell the starting PG. Fine, let him back up J-Rich. Get me a damn real PG! McGinnis is a better pure PG, and that is not saying something very good now is it?

i know some of you Ray fans have defended him hard and steady. I want him to be the answer. but he is not! He cannot lead this team as a PG. I know there are many of you out there who agree with me and might be shy on saying it, but damn it, time to stand up and show your cards gentleman. State your case.

I'm sorry Ray, but I do not have faith in you as a true starting PG to lead this team to the Promised Land.

[MattD]

Glad you made a thread about this... I will repost what I wrote on the game thread

its because of the way he plays, he doesnt have strong enough basketball court vision to be a great distributor, doesnt have a great enough shot to be a consistant shoot first, what he does have is a terrific work ethic (which gives us some hope) and amazing driving skills with the strength to finish... Here in lies the biggest problem, he could be just like jason richardson... if he was 6'6 but instead at 6 hes to small to play the 2 and as mentioned above not really a great enough distributor to become an "elite" point gaurd in the league... so basically when we resign him for an extension, were screwing ourselves, because he really is too good and to much of the face of the franchise to come off the bench, yet he is not going to be a key piece to a championship team... my 2 cents


also the way he wants to be the leader so badly is interesting the team is young but being the leader of the team at his age is good and bad... the one most important thing to note is that without him we are even more screwed... think about PHILA, we got destroyed, DESTROYED without him. It was too painful to watch, so he does run the team really well. I don't really know what to think, but we need him

[TheBeagle]

I think Raymond and Jeff play together so often because Raymond can be a scoring threat, and this is a team that is lacking in scoring threats. Really, JRich and GW are the only "threats" to score the ball consistently, and even those guys have had their struggles early on, therefore Raymond is being called on to take more shots and score more points, as opposed to running a team. This has been his problem since his career started, and has obviously stunted his growth as a true PG.

So, to answer the statement of this thread, I agree, Raymond isn't a PG...because he hasn't been allowed to be one.

[ohara831]

I have 2 major points on this issue which concern me greatly:

1. This is the year where young PG's make their biggest strides. Look at Paul in N.O. and Williams in Utah. Last year, we made excuses for Ray. He's playing behind BK, he needs to have the reigns more to run and learn, he's playing out of position. I agreed with all of it. The writers said the Bobcats would go as far as Ray could take them. WHAT IS HAPPENING? He is ceding 1/2 the PG job to McGinnis! HOW can he get any better if he does not do the whole job?

I agree with you MattD, I think he just does not have sufficient court vision. Bernie did it with BK, and Sam is doing it with McGinnis. ***** 2 different Coaches are doing it with Ray, so that tells me something right there. They know he does not have all the tools to be a True PG and/or Ray has illustrated to them he lacks the confidence to be the true PG on the floor. Either way, it's a killer for the team!

2. Suppose we do get a Center in a trade or in the upcoming Draft. That gives us the Center, Okafor, Crash and J-Rich,and who? Ray and McGinnis? That is 6 people, and we can only have 5 on the floor at once. If we get a good Center, and start Ray, we don't have a true PG. We will not win that way.

Playing Ray and McGinnis together does nothing good for us, and is actually hurting us. It takes away Ray's opportunity to have to prove himself ( or saves him from the embarrassment of failing at it), and it takes up a position on the floor where we need another big to help Okafor- either a scoring PF like Okafor and let Okafor play the 5, or better yet a True 5 and let Okafor play the 4 where he is better suited to dominate.

I know Ray has had the occasional good game. But one good and one bad will only make us a luke warm .500 team. We cannot be a big time threat to anyone this way. I just see him as a "better than average back up PG/Shooting Guard", and that is what he should be. If we had him leading our 2nd team on the floor, with people like Dudley, Carroll, May and Morrison, that would be a great 2nd.

CONCLUSION:
We need to plan on obtaining a Center and true PG for next year. Build around Okafor, J-Rich and Crash.

[x2pacalypse]

i wish everybody would just leave him alone, felton is not the reason we are losing, in fact he's the reason we stay close in these games

he has been the only consistant factor in our scoring threat, that's why he's playing the 2, because vincent knows he can sink a shot when needed, and isn't afraid to drive the lane

if our team learns how to shoot, then he will go back to playing point

[dav7z]

Last game Ray had nine assist and only played point part of the time . With only turn over . Questioning Feltons point abilitys to Mcinnis WOW. The real question is why are we not starting Hollins a side OK50 and leting Primoz be a back up.
It's no reason for Mcinnis to play except to back up Felton. Feltons handle would be a lot better playing just one position . Hell his shooting is up to about 45PERCENT. Those 16 points and six assist is not that bad shooting 50 percent for the game.
Hammer just needs to back up Rich as hes better than Mcinnis any way. And the Hammer is productive when in the game. I can't understand the man love for Mcinnis hes just a ok back up geting too many mins. If coach only played Felton at the point we would see all most all star numbers.
It's no reason to crash on Felton so far hes had a good season. And as he gets use to Rich he will only get better.
Face the truth its not Felton its the small line up. Hollins could help that greatly if he continues to play like he did last night.

[dav7z]

All so i think it's the coaches confidence in Hammers defence . Not Feltons point play thet is giving Mcinnis way to many mins. Thats got to change in ordor for us to smell the play offs ,. Right now i think coach has just to moch confidence in Mcinnis rifgt now.
In stead of that small line up Hollins ,Dudley and Davidson need to get that burn. This all falls back to Carrolls lack of defence. Same reason Fabio is geting no burn.

[ohara831]

Tupac and Dav7z:
I'm sorry to have to disagree, but I do. You cannot put this off to others learning the system. Look at Ray's Assist to TO ratio, pts and FG% and compare to the elite PGs.
Ray : 16pts 6.3 ast 3 TO shoots 44%
Paul: 10.6 asts 3.3 TO shoots 51%
Williams 9.4 asts 3.78 TO shoots 51%
Parker: 6 ast 2.3 TO Shoots 53% and avg 20+ pts
Nash : 9.3 ast 4.38 TO Shoots 58% and avg 20+

*That is just a few of the better PG's for comparison. I am sure that Ray is better than some starting PGs, but those would be the avg to below avg ones. We need an above avg one.

Also, you have to look at the fact that we are using up a floor position when we run 2 PG offense. How can Hollins or Jermareo get time to improve and play with the starters if we can only have 5 on the floor at one time? What if we draft and good quality starting Center or get one in FA? Ray or McGinnis would have to sit. Right now, sorry to say, but McGinnis sees the floor better. He makes better decisions. He is not the scoring threat Ray is, but he is a superior true PG to Ray, and that just SUCKS.

Ray would be a great floor leader for our 2nd team and play maybe 20 minutes/ game. But, he is not the one to lead this team to a Playoff appearance and victory on a night in and night out basis. Too inconsistent, and lacks vision.

In the upcomign Draft, I would see who is the highest quality pure PG or C available, and if that person can be a game changer and has Star potential. I then take that person, and try to fill the other via FA signing when we cut loose the excess baggage at the season's end. This will be a very good draft for PG and Centers, so we will have a pretty good option at either if we do not make the Playoffs this yr.
*Build around Okafor, J-Rich and Crash.

[dav7z]

Thats good company to be compared to . Ever one all stars .
Felton leads the team ppg. and assist shooting 44 percent at about 18ppg . Thats kind of play is no reason for big concern.
Hollins just needs that burn and we need to get away from those small line ups.
Me i don't even put Felton and Mcinnis in the same class.
Same question could be brought up about ok50 scoring just six points and fouling out last night . But i have no doubt about his play either.
The center position should be our cencern.
Glad we can disagree with out geting pissed. Good posting your thoughts.

[spectre]

In respect to our guards, who are the best perimeter defenders on the Bobcats?  What is the order of best man defenders on the perimeter?

When Touche' and Felton are on the court together it gives the lineup one EXTRA outside threat other than Jason Richardson while doing the least amount of damage on the defensive end.  This spreads the court and gives Touche' lanes to the bigs underneath.

Philadelphia is what happens when you have no outside shooters and Touche' is running the show.  To even think that Touches' PT is from a weakness in Felton's game is ludicrous.

[spectre]

Ray : 16pts 6.3 ast 3 TO shoots 44%
Paul: 10.6 asts 3.3 TO shoots 51%
Williams 9.4 asts 3.78 TO shoots 51%
Parker: 6 ast 2.3 TO Shoots 53% and avg 20+ pts
Nash : 9.3 ast 4.38 TO Shoots 58% and avg 20+

Heh, comparing him to the best 4 PGs in the league. Every one of those teams except Paul have an established team with a vet coach who've been together for years. Paul is just phenomenal in his own right.

So are we going to compare Mek to Amare, Dwight & Duncan? How about Crash to T-Mac, Mello & LeBron?

[ohara831]

In respect to our guards, who are the best perimeter defenders on the Bobcats? What is the order of best man defenders on the perimeter?

When Touche' and Felton are on the court together it gives the lineup one EXTRA outside threat other than Jason Richardson while doing the least amount of damage on the defensive end. This spreads the court and gives Touche' lanes to the bigs underneath.

Philadelphia is what happens when you have no outside shooters and Touche' is running the show. To even think that Touches' PT is from a weakness in Felton's game is ludicrous.
__________________________________________________ _____

It gives Touch' lanes to the bigs underneath? Last night, we were beaten on assists 29 - 19. That is 20 points.

[spectre]

It spreads the floor.  Do you even realize WHEN Touche' got the bulk of his assists?  Out of his 6, FOUR happened in 2:21 in the 4th quarter while on the court with Felton (you know...when it didn't count).  Why'd he only get two in all the other minutes when Felton wasn't on the floor?

And of course they slapped us in assists, and that was due in large part to the zone we tried to run in the 1st quarter then added on with the full court press we tried in the 4th.  Our bigs/wings weren't rotating underneath and Smith kept getting uncontested layups.

Did you see the points in the paint differential?  THAT'S where the assists came from.

I never said Felton had a good game last night; in fact it was probably his worst to date.  But it's not his fault everyone was half assing it out there (it is his fault that HE was half assing it too tho).  The screens were horrendous, which negates the whole purpose of doing them.  The defensive effort flat out SUCKED, esp. in the 1st quarter.

[bizzlecatz]

i wish everybody would just leave him alone, felton is not the reason we are losing, in fact he's the reason we stay close in these games

he has been the only consistant factor in our scoring threat, that's why he's playing the 2, because vincent knows he can sink a shot when needed, and isn't afraid to drive the lane

if our team learns how to shoot, then he will go back to playing point


Thank you very much Tupac,
The hate on Felts from this board always amazes me, although he can improve on his passing, Felts is not the problem. Noone can score when needed is the problem, which was proven last night. Noone can hit a damn free throw.and never ever, ever, ever run a full court press again. The team is better when Felts is running the show he ups the tempo and the team plays to their strenghts.








how many times did they cut the lead to 7

[davcbow]

Its Basketball season again!!! Dont you love it?
I do!!!!

Go Bobcats!!!!!!

[Dlpz87]

I don't think that Ray is the blame for all of our supposed offensive woes.

Look at it this way, in order for Ray not to be a "true PG" you must first define what a "true PG" is. So, instead of wasting time trying to define that myself, I will rip off wikipedia instead...

A "true PG" is: "...a true point guard's job is to create scoring opportunities for his team. He does this by passing, setting up plays on the court, getting knowledge of the game and skill. They usually exert a leadership role on the floor similar to that of a quarterback in American football."

This he does by meeting the requirements below

"...being quicker and shorter than even a shooting guard, the more speed a point guard has, the more likely he/she will be able to create separation and space off the dribble, which allows the guard room to work."

Now that we have a working lexical explanation for what a "true" point guard is, let's evaluate McInnis in general terms to see if he matches this definition better than Ray. And I will be doing this by lightly regarding statistics, which while important, are not eminently necessary in regards to these intangible characteristics aforementioned.

Does McInnis create scoring opportunities for his teammates? Well, yes he does, even though his one start this season was a 48 minute nightmare. Does he create more scoring opportunities for his teammates that Felton? Well, no, even though he has a better a/to ratio, he still is not looking at the minutes that Felton is, not to mention he cannot score very well himself, thus putting the burden even more so on his team to do the legwork. If this was a question of assists, then yes, maybe he would be better than Ray. But it's not. Rather, it's a question of opportunities something that Felton is better at providing for more reasons than his scoring abilities.

While they may both be equal in terms of knowing plays and executing them (I can't blame them for those horrendous screens they were getting last night), Felton still pulls ahead due to his higher natural talents and physical gifts.

Is McInnis: faster, stronger, quicker (yes, there is a difference b/t speed and quickness), have better handles, have a better shot than Felton? No, no, no, no, and no. While he may have the height, Felton would beat him in the weight room or in a sprint any day. Not to mention his handles (while not great) are far more suited for driving to the basket and driving and passing.

This all comes to a head when it is noted that the style of play that the Bobcats use is a very up and down offense and quick defense that preys on t/o's.

So, regardless of how well McInnis may be able to pass or see the court, his inability to measure up to the intangibles that Ray has makes Ray the better choice for our Bobcats on any night of the week.

All of this means this:

1) A true point guard is one who creates scoring opportunities for his/her teammates by being a natural leader and using his athletic and basketball ability to create separation, space, and plays.
2) Both Raymond Felton and Jeff McInnis exhibit all of these requirements of a true point guard to some degree.
3) It is evident, when compared head to head, that Felton exhibits these requirements in a higher degree (especially the qualities of athleticism and scoring ability) than McInnis does.
__________________________________________________ ____________________
4) A true point guard is measured by how well he/she can fulfill the requirements of statement #1
5) Since Felton performs these requirements better than McInnis, he would be ahead of McInnis in terms of quality.
__________________________________________________ ____________________
6) Therefore Felton is ahead of McInnis in terms of quality of requirements for the point guard position, and if point guards are judged by such requirements overall, then Felton is more of a true point guard than McInnis is.

(Yes, I am bored and suffering from mono, so I have plenty of time to kill)
Just my opinion...

[Wallace15]

4-3 with Felton starting. 0-1 with McInnis starting and that was a 30pt blowout at PHILLY! We're 8 games into the season, Felton's first season to actually run the team and we're already having a discussion about if he's a true PG? You gotta be crazy if you think that McInnis is a better PG. There is absolutely no way he could run the team as good as Felton can.
If Touche was the starting PG for the first 8 games I guarantee we'd have no more than 2 wins right now.

Getting a solid 5 is our main priority come draft time.

[kjk2241]

ohara im going to have to disagree with you with regards to Felton. To be honest I think you are over analyzing everything. The fact is the offense runs through Felton. Without him we dont play as well not matter what "stats" you want to throw out there.

He plays SG when McInnis is in so we can have another scoring threat who can also create. Vincent wants to have Felton, Wallace, Richardson and Okafor at the end of the game. Who is the 5th person...Primoz, Hollins??? We all thought before the season started that that person would be Hermann so far it hasnt and shouldnt be.

Right now that person is McInnis. I think that is more a statement on our bench than on Felton.

[dav7z]

2241 . I have to disagree withh you on who should play more mins. After last nights game im convinced Hollins should start and play starter mins. Hes very active a engery guy.
Mcinnis should only back Felton up.Carroll should back up the two Dudley the three Davidson the four. Prinoz the five and set that rotation for the year . Ever one then can contrate on thair roals.
But we should have no worries about Felton.

[davcbow]

dav7z; you more than likely would know the answer to this but what team went from expansion team to NBA champion the fastest? Ive been trying to find that out because alot of folks seem to think we should be alot better than we are in our 4th season. Felton is doing great so he dont need to be traded or replaced, he is learning the position and once he gets it down he will be awesome. Hollins is coming on now and I believe management sees that he is doing alot better and out playing Primoz, Harrington needs to start playing some to help the big guys out. Big men right now are our priority and maybe a back up for Felts....We're still a couple years away from dominance and we are still feeling the growing pains, so hang in there guys its coming..... :g:

[ohara831]

Well, we can respectfully agree to disagree. And as the season moves along, either I will be proven right or wrong. We will let the season decide.

[dvdbumpus]

Just look at how it was when he was out to see how bad we were, and you'll see my answer.

He's not a prototypical PG (yet), but Vince Young isn't a prototypical QB yet the team is much better off with him in there. He sets them up to win every game just by being there (as is felton).

Just remember, last year we complained about him but once Ray took over for Brevin we played .500 ball (after the prototypical PG Brevin started us 7-21).

[Wallace15]

2241 . I have to disagree withh you on who should play more mins. After last nights game im convinced Hollins should start and play starter mins. Hes very active a engery guy.
Mcinnis should only back Felton up.Carroll should back up the two Dudley the three Davidson the four. Prinoz the five and set that rotation for the year . Ever one then can contrate on thair roals.
But we should have no worries about Felton.


I agree with you're line-ups
Starters-Felts, JRich, Crash, EO50, Hollins.
2nd team-McInnis, Carroll, Dudley, Davidson, Brezec.
I really wish Coach V would give Hermann more PT.

[dav7z]

Well, we can respectfully agree to disagree. And as the season moves along, either I will be proven right or wrong. We will let the season decide.



I respect your position. Me personally think we have a much larger need for a big. Now if we picking way back in the 1st round i might pick up a point if all the good bigs was gone. If we could snag a can't miss type player like a Ty Lawson. But i would still have to address a big in free agency
We got a year to see IF and when our young players devolop.
Im starting to think Hollins might be able to fill in the center position. With about twenty more pounds of solid mussle
hes going to be a force on the defencive side of the ball.He looks to me like hes getting better ever game.

[dav7z]

dav7z; you more than likely would know the answer to this but what team went from expansion team to NBA champion the fastest? Ive been trying to find that out because alot of folks seem to think we should be alot better than we are in our 4th season. Felton is doing great so he dont need to be traded or replaced, he is learning the position and once he gets it down he will be awesome. Hollins is coming on now and I believe management sees that he is doing alot better and out playing Primoz, Harrington needs to start playing some to help the big guys out. Big men right now are our priority and maybe a back up for Felts....We're still a couple years away from dominance and we are still feeling the growing pains, so hang in there guys its coming..... :g:

Good question , I don't know for sure. I'm thinking the Heat
What was that about 15 years to win it.
Any one know that answer, REP IF UP good question.

[ziggy]

dav7z; you more than likely would know the answer to this but what team went from expansion team to NBA champion the fastest? Ive been trying to find that out because alot of folks seem to think we should be alot better than we are in our 4th season. Felton is doing great so he dont need to be traded or replaced, he is learning the position and once he gets it down he will be awesome. Hollins is coming on now and I believe management sees that he is doing alot better and out playing Primoz, Harrington needs to start playing some to help the big guys out. Big men right now are our priority and maybe a back up for Felts....We're still a couple years away from dominance and we are still feeling the growing pains, so hang in there guys its coming..... :g:

Good question , I don't know for sure. I'm thinking the Heat
What was that about 15 years to win it.
Any one know that answer, REP IF UP good question.

I love google :biggrin: This is what I found via http://members.cox.net/kdrum/Expansionteams.htm.
Basketball: The Milwaukee Bucks, led by Lew Alcindor, started in 1968-69 and won the NBA championship in 1970-71, their third season. The Portland Trail Blazers started in 1970-71 and won the NBA championship in 1976-77, their seventh season.

Honorable mentions (for charter teams): The Philadelphia Warriors won the first NBA championship in 1946-47, their first year as a team. The Minneapolis Lakers started in 1947-48 as an NBL expansion team and won the NBA championship in 1948-49, their second season.

[Dunk]

So far Felton seems to have done a pretty good job. If not, show me some stats (not opinions) on how he hasn't been effective. His scoring is up, assist are fairly high, and his assist/turnover ration is very good.

Longer term, my opinion, is that Ray could be good up to very good (in the right system) in the NBA. Probably not All Star material.

At a team level, we need to figure out how to getter better at the center position because we are very weak there.

[123together]

felton is the closest thing to a true point guard that the bobs have.

i certainly wouldn't want jeff mcinnis running the team for 40 minutes a game

[TheBeagle]

I have 2 major points on this issue which concern me greatly:

1. This is the year where young PG's make their biggest strides. Look at Paul in N.O. and Williams in Utah. Last year, we made excuses for Ray. He's playing behind BK, he needs to have the reigns more to run and learn, he's playing out of position. I agreed with all of it. The writers said the Bobcats would go as far as Ray could take them. WHAT IS HAPPENING? He is ceding 1/2 the PG job to McGinnis! HOW can he get any better if he does not do the whole job?

I agree with you MattD, I think he just does not have sufficient court vision. Bernie did it with BK, and Sam is doing it with McGinnis. ***** 2 different Coaches are doing it with Ray, so that tells me something right there. They know he does not have all the tools to be a True PG and/or Ray has illustrated to them he lacks the confidence to be the true PG on the floor. Either way, it's a killer for the team!

2. Suppose we do get a Center in a trade or in the upcoming Draft. That gives us the Center, Okafor, Crash and J-Rich,and who? Ray and McGinnis? That is 6 people, and we can only have 5 on the floor at once. If we get a good Center, and start Ray, we don't have a true PG. We will not win that way.

Playing Ray and McGinnis together does nothing good for us, and is actually hurting us. It takes away Ray's opportunity to have to prove himself ( or saves him from the embarrassment of failing at it), and it takes up a position on the floor where we need another big to help Okafor- either a scoring PF like Okafor and let Okafor play the 5, or better yet a True 5 and let Okafor play the 4 where he is better suited to dominate.

I know Ray has had the occasional good game. But one good and one bad will only make us a luke warm .500 team. We cannot be a big time threat to anyone this way. I just see him as a "better than average back up PG/Shooting Guard", and that is what he should be. If we had him leading our 2nd team on the floor, with people like Dudley, Carroll, May and Morrison, that would be a great 2nd.

CONCLUSION:
We need to plan on obtaining a Center and true PG for next year. Build around Okafor, J-Rich and Crash.
ohara, I think you're only seeing what you want to see here. And that's okay, but I believe it really flaws your argument:

1. If you want to compare Raymond with CP and Williams, look at the offensive power they have to play with. CP has Stojakovic, West, Peterson and Chandler. Chandler is a better player than any of our 5s; West has a better offensive game than Mek; Peterson and Stojakovic are spot up shooters. I mean, did you see the game where CP had 21 assists: he was just dishing to a wide open Stojakovic he drained 3 after 3, likewise Peterson. Of our starting 5 only JRich is a spot up shooter, as GW is more of an iso player, generating his own offense from his quickness.

Wililams having Boozer and Okur is enough to get you 7 assists a night easily, not including what Kirilenko or Brewer might throw in.

That said, he is behind the curve because he has never been blessed with offensively talented teammates that can either dominate the post, or consistently get open and make a jumper. Since his arrival in Charlotte he has been asked to be a scorer, and to be a PG when possible. His two coaches have done this to him because they realize the offensive limiatations of the team, so they bring in the other PG to let Raymond generate offensive via jumpers and drives to the hoop. And obviously I agree, he won't be a better PG until he is allowed to be a PG fulltime, but he's doing a damn fine job considering the multi-tasking load he's had to carry.

As far as "court vision" goes, that's in the subjective realm, so I think you need to explain and give evidence of how he does not have this attribute by giving examples.

2. By prematurely condemning Raymond, as not being a "true PG", when he has clearly not been given the opportunity to learn the craft on a consistent basis, there should be no question, following your logic, that Jeff is the 5th starter, so there is no hypothetical 6th person on the court. So I don't understand your anxiety.

From my perspective, the one thing that is lacking is a post-scoring threat. So if we were to draft a C or PF, or acquire a FA, then we'll finally be able to fairly grade Raymond and his PG skills because there would be 3 legitimate scorers in the starting 5, with Mek and Raymond occupying the ancillary roles: Mek getting offensive put backs and the patented screen-and-roll slams; Raymond driving to the hoop, or burying 3s when GW, JRich, or our new addition draws a crowd and kicks-out.

In this scenario, there will never be a need for a 2nd PG in the lineup, because it will take away one of our threats, one of which we don't have this season, thus, the vacuum that Raymond is being called on to occupy. You even realize this to some degree as you explain:

"Playing Ray and McGinnis together does nothing good for us, and is actually hurting us. It takes away Ray's opportunity to have to prove himself ( or saves him from the embarrassment of failing at it), and it takes up a position on the floor where we need another big to help Okafor- either a scoring PF like Okafor and let Okafor play the 5, or better yet a True 5 and let Okafor play the 4 where he is better suited to dominate."

So the solution is not to dump on Raymond yet, it is to acquire a consistent post-scoring threat, or an inside/outside guy like Antawn. Only then can we fairly criticize Raymond for his "true PG" deficiencies, if they even exist.

[timang]

i hated brevin and bernie on how they made felt's play look horrid, especially last season. if ray isn't a PG, then how come it's his position in college? ( not to mention he did VERY well in NC). odd point.

[ohara831]

i hated brevin and bernie on how they made felt's play look horrid, especially last season. if ray isn't a PG, then how come it's his position in college? ( not to mention he did VERY well in NC). odd point.
__________________________________________________ __

The level of play from College to Pro is much higher, faster and bigger. You see players in College play a small 5 or big 4,and they are barely able to hold their own at the Pro level 4 because of size or speed. Players that are PG in college but also great scorers come off the bench in the Pros as a 1 and 2 combo Guard to spell the starting 1 or 2. We cannot always compare the College position to the pro position.


Beagle: You make some very good points, but I do not agree with all of your conclusions, just as you will not agree with all mine. I simply watch the game and see him make mistakes at costly times. Here are some examples. When we were rallying against Atlanta, 2x he came down and quickly chucked up a jumper with us having barely had the ball 10 seconds. He did not even try to get the ball moving and set someone up. He has some good instincts for passes at times, but his execution leads to a TO due to the pass being off a bit. This happens too often for my liking. It kills a rally. NOW, do not get me wrong. I do not dislike Ray. There are times when he is hot shooting and he gets us 10 needed points in a quarter. But when he does get in that mindset, he is more of a 2 guard than a 3 guard. And if McGinnis is not on the floor, then there is no one on the floor with the mindset of a PG to move the ball around. Compare to Nash. He is ALWAYS looking to pass, ALWAYS. Yet, he still manages to score over 20 / game. That is why is excels at the position. I see the same thing happening with Williams in Utah,Paul in N.O. and Parker in San Antonia.

HOW ABOUT THIS

**WAs I harsh to say Ray is not a True PG? Yes, it was harsh. We can talk about the surrounding cast of characters, but facts are facts. How about this sentence: "Ray is a middle of the pack PG in the NBA at his best." All that says is "he is average." My whole desire for our Bobcat team is to be THE BEST. I want a Title for Charlotte. To do that, we will have to have an upper eschelon PG. That, or we get lucky in the draft and wind up with a Center who is one of those once a decade stars. Most likely, the PG is who will get us where we need to go.

[spectre]

"Ray is a middle of the pack PG in the NBA at his best."

So we've decided that he's reached his peak after 3 years in the League?

He's middle of the pack NOW. Why would he not get better?

Check out Jason Kidd's early years (struggling with FG%, high assist to TO ratio...averaged FOUR TOs per game 2nd season), Chauncey Billup's, even Steve Nash didn't average 6 assists til his 4th year.

History argues against you.

[twebb]

We have a better chance of winning with him on the court. I dont care what position you put him at. Disagree? just look at that Pacers game

[davcbow]

dav7z; you more than likely would know the answer to this but what team went from expansion team to NBA champion the fastest? Ive been trying to find that out because alot of folks seem to think we should be alot better than we are in our 4th season. Felton is doing great so he dont need to be traded or replaced, he is learning the position and once he gets it down he will be awesome. Hollins is coming on now and I believe management sees that he is doing alot better and out playing Primoz, Harrington needs to start playing some to help the big guys out. Big men right now are our priority and maybe a back up for Felts....We're still a couple years away from dominance and we are still feeling the growing pains, so hang in there guys its coming..... :g:

Good question , I don't know for sure. I'm thinking the Heat
What was that about 15 years to win it.
Any one know that answer, REP IF UP good question.

I love google :biggrin: This is what I found via http://members.cox.net/kdrum/Expansionteams.htm.
Basketball: The Milwaukee Bucks, led by Lew Alcindor, started in 1968-69 and won the NBA championship in 1970-71, their third season. The Portland Trail Blazers started in 1970-71 and won the NBA championship in 1976-77, their seventh season.

Honorable mentions (for charter teams): The Philadelphia Warriors won the first NBA championship in 1946-47, their first year as a team. The Minneapolis Lakers started in 1947-48 as an NBL expansion team and won the NBA championship in 1948-49, their second season.


Good lord I never would have though it could be done so fast. I guess there was more available talent and no CBA to deal with back in those days. Ziggy you da man! :o

[Muttley]

7 rebounds 12 assists and 13 points - can we close this thread yet?

Actually, I should really be saying that we can't judge anyone, ray included, by one game. The whole point in having a "big 4" is that not all of them are going to have their best game every night for 82 games. I know it can get frustrating, but when our guys are on a slump, just sit back and trust that they're gonna turn it around. Because they usually have before.

[spectre]

Well said. That's the point of having a "Piston" type team...when one's in a slump the others can take up the slack. I've always said we need 3 players to have very good/great games scoring wise; tonight Mek and Felts combined for that 3rd player.

75 points, 35 rebounds, 17 assists and 4 blocks. That and some solid bench support will win a LOT of games.

[ohara831]

THIS is the type of game I want from Ray night in and night out. 13 pts, 12 assists and 7 brds with only 4 TO's. If he does this consistently, then he will prove himself to be one of the top 7 PG's in the NBA. I will Happily then state that I was wrong and he will have proven me such. And I do mean I will do so Happily!

With high assists, and moderate scoring, he is so much better for us, getting everyone else involved in the game. This is what makes me happy!

By the way, my Son was born yesterday. 21 inches, 6 lbs 14 ounces. Healthy and happy. Today is a great day! Go Bobcats!!

[Dead_Real]

^^^
Congrats on the birth Ohara.

[Muttley]

Nice Work O'Hara! May he league the lead in assists, rebounds and ppg someday!

Now, as for Mr. Felton, I think we can agree that this is the type of performance from him that would help us best. Anyways, good game for most Bobcats tonight.

[Alex]

So after tonight does anybody else have a doubt? I mean the man goes 5-6 games without having double digit assists and everyone freaks out that he's not a PG. Of course he's a PG! He's played PG all his life, is it his fault that he can shoot the three and he plays off the ball because of it when J-Rich goes out? No, it's not, he worked on that shot so he can be more effective.

[dav7z]

I don't know his feild goal percentage tonight but i was thair . The only bad shots he took he was forced to do so with the clock running out. He is all so one hell of a defencive player tonight. On straight up one on one he might be better than Wallace. He might not be a all star but hes a winner and one hell of a competor. I would take him on my team any time.

[dnbman]

Not to drag this thread out any more than it already has, but I get really annoyed that people think a good pg should have moderate to low scoring. That makes zero sense to me. The only reason you'd make a comment about a player scoring too much is if he's looking to score more than he's looking to make the right play. However, the game of basketball is putting the ball in the basket. Any coach in the league would give the green light to a guard shooting close to 50%. Granted, there were a couple of games where Felton was terrible. However, for the most part, he's been shooting a pretty good percentage.

I love seeing the double digit assists. However, I'm just as happy to see 20+ points and 7 assists. The question is is he doing the best he can to help his team win? Like Nash, Williams, Paul, and every other great pg in the league, some nights that's passing and other nights that's scoring.

My expectations for Felton's career are around 18 points and 8-9 assists. If he does that, he's unquestionably a top 10 pg in the league.

[dnbman]

I don't know his feild goal percentage tonight but i was thair . The only bad shots he took he was forced to do so with the clock running out. He is all so one hell of a defencive player tonight. On straight up one on one he might be better than Wallace. He might not be a all star but hes a winner and one hell of a competor. I would take him on my team any time.


Interesting to hear. BTW... he finished 5-12, with one of those shots being a half court heave at the half. (correct?)

So, if he's 5-11 for real attempts, that's strong for a pg.

[ALong13]

Wonderful game by Felton it seems, didn't get to watch the game tonight, was out with friends at a party, but looked good. Okafor with 15 rebounds, Carroll hitting from 3, J-Rich and Crash hitting shots and leading the team, and Primoz....sucking like usual, overall seemed like it was a good game, nice win Bobcats....

And on Ray scoring too much, I think it's fine, sure I love double digit assist, and would prefer a 14 pts & 12 assist anyday over 18 and 8, I still think him scoring isn't that bad...

[dnbman]

Wonderful game by Felton it seems, didn't get to watch the game tonight, was out with friends at a party, but looked good. Okafor with 15 rebounds, Carroll hitting from 3, J-Rich and Crash hitting shots and leading the team, and Primoz....sucking like usual, overall seemed like it was a good game, nice win Bobcats....

And on Ray scoring too much, I think it's fine, sure I love double digit assist, and would prefer a 14 pts & 12 assist anyday over 18 and 8, I still think him scoring isn't that bad...


Sure, 14 and 12 is great! (and makes up more total points). However, there's only been a few guys ever to average assist numbers like that. He doesn't have to post HOF assist numbers for us to be successful.

I just get tired of people trying to make the guy out to be Gilbert Arenas or Marbury when he only takes 12-13 shots a game for his career.

[davcbow]

Raymond ran the offence tonight lights out. The entire team looked good except a couple like MicInnis and Primoz. Felts may never be a Nash but 2nd best is ok too. I may even change that statement too before its all over.... :g:

[dvdbumpus]

Just like @ UNC, you're seeing a much improved player in his 3rd year. Too bad it's one in a million he leads us to a championship his 3rd year...lol.


His shooting has looked less forced, and he is handling the ball much better. For example tonight against the sonics he was driving the lane and instead of trying to force an impossible shot in traffic he turned back and dished it out to Crash who nailed a wide open 3. I loved seeing that.

[ziggy]

THIS is the type of game I want from Ray night in and night out. 13 pts, 12 assists and 7 brds with only 4 TO's. If he does this consistently, then he will prove himself to be one of the top 7 PG's in the NBA. I will Happily then state that I was wrong and he will have proven me such. And I do mean I will do so Happily!

With high assists, and moderate scoring, he is so much better for us, getting everyone else involved in the game. This is what makes me happy!

By the way, my Son was born yesterday. 21 inches, 6 lbs 14 ounces. Healthy and happy. Today is a great day! Go Bobcats!!

Congratulations Ohara !!!
Kids change your life in ways that you wouldn't believe. (I have 2 myself).
Enjoy the experience :)

[spectre]

THIS is the type of game I want from Ray night in and night out. 13 pts, 12 assists and 7 brds with only 4 TO's. If he does this consistently, then he will prove himself to be one of the top 7 PG's in the NBA. I will Happily then state that I was wrong and he will have proven me such. And I do mean I will do so Happily!

With high assists, and moderate scoring, he is so much better for us, getting everyone else involved in the game. This is what makes me happy!

By the way, my Son was born yesterday. 21 inches, 6 lbs 14 ounces. Healthy and happy. Today is a great day! Go Bobcats!!


Congratulations Ohara!!!!

It's all good. Everyone of us here wants the same thing, and that's success. IMO that's one of the things that makes BCP stand out over a lot of the other fan forums. Folks might look at it as homerism, but really it's just giving optimistic support for the players and looking beyond the occasional bad game.

Deron Williams had 6 assists and 6 TOs last night with only 8 points...bad games/slumps happen to every player.

So far as averages, I agree with DNB that I'd rather have around 8 assists per game from Felton vs. the 12-14 and let the other 4 assists go to Crash/JRich/Mek. I want ball/player movement instead of the rock always being in the PG's hands. Everyone should be looking for the pass that will make an easier bucket as it keeps the opponent confused and keeps doubleteaming down.

Besides, Felton is a scoring threat and there's no sense in not utilizing it, esp. that spot up 3 shot he has where he's squared and has those feet set. It's money in the bank.

[ohara831]

Thanks for the congrats and well wishes! I wanted to share the good news with my fellow Bobcats fans.

OK. Let me officially close this Thread for the Season. Ray is showing me what I wanted to see. And I will expect that he will have the occasional bad game. After all, he is only human. At the end of the season, I will reevaluate my statement and either declare it again or be a stand up guy and say " I was wrong."
I am hoping for the latter. LETS GO BOBCATS!!!

[dnbman]

Besides, Felton is a scoring threat and there's no sense in not utilizing it, esp. that spot up 3 shot he has where he's squared and has those feet set. It's money in the bank.


Yes, yes, and yes. We should take advantage of our best opportunity to points on the board. Felton is often the best opportunity. That's really all I'm saying.

[Grandmama]

The reason his stats don't look better is because he has to play the most minutes with Primoz. Primoz is fucking awful, he is losing the shit-fart gamble bad.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

The reason his stats don't look better is because he has to play the most minutes with Primoz. Primoz is fucking awful, he is losing the shit-fart gamble bad.


THIS IS BLASPHEMY!

[dvdbumpus]

Is that girl um...having some action?

[WarioVsMooChicken]

Possibly :running:

[dnbman]

Is that girl um...having some action?


well played.

[davcbow]

Is that girl um...having some action?


She could be riding a mechanical bull on fast speed.... :g:

[MattD]

well looks like this thread was answered to in the paper... i wonder if bonnell and ray read the forums?

[ohara831]

well looks like this thread was answered to in the paper... i wonder if bonnell and ray read the forums?
__________________________________________________

What? Someone actually listened to me? No one listens to me, not my wife, kids or my clients. This is amazing! I think the end of the world is at hand!!!

Truly, maybe it is the power of the BobcatsPlanet Forum!! It is all of us. Maybe we can make a difference!

[ziggy]

well looks like this thread was answered to in the paper... i wonder if bonnell and ray read the forums?
__________________________________________________

What? Someone actually listened to me? No one listens to me, not my wife, kids or my clients. This is amazing! I think the end of the world is at hand!!!

Truly, maybe it is the power of the BobcatsPlanet Forum!! It is all of us. Maybe we can make a difference!

;-) Now we just need to use our power to get them to waive Othella.

[davcbow]

well looks like this thread was answered to in the paper... i wonder if bonnell and ray read the forums?
__________________________________________________

What? Someone actually listened to me? No one listens to me, not my wife, kids or my clients. This is amazing! I think the end of the world is at hand!!!

Truly, maybe it is the power of the BobcatsPlanet Forum!! It is all of us. Maybe we can make a difference!

;-) Now we just need to use our power to get them to waive Othella.


I 2nd that notion.... :g:

[Alex]

Felon is scaring me at the moment. I don't know what to think anymore if he keeps this up.