I'm Beginning to Feel Like a Cubs Fan

[ohara831]

This is getting depressing. We had so much hope at the beginning of the year. Trade for J-Rich, good draft picks and Ammo was showing vast improvement.

Now, Ammo out, May out, don't know how much damage to Gerald's calf, and J-Rich is only a good set shot jump shooter. He's just average at other parts of his game, and below avg at the free throw line. This is how the Cub fans feel year after year. Hope is alive briefly, then it becomes a matter of "wait till next year". At least we have not been dealing with that for now almost 100 years.

Maybe the ping pong balls are good to us and we land Beasley at K State, Mayo of USC, Jordan of Texas A&M, Rose of Memphis or Gordon at Indiana. I don't care if we have a PG or SG. Any of those 5 are franchise makers. I would take any one available, not just the best PF or C.

No, I am not considering the Bobcats tanking the Year! I'm just resigned the the fact that this year is not going to be what we wanted. If it is not, then I want the highest possible pick.

**Or picks!!! Is there any way we have what Phoenix may want and snag the Atlanta pick from them? Maybe Fabio and a couple expiring Contracts. I may have to ponder what scenarios we can throw to them to get that pick. With this draft, 2 picks in the lottery would likely be starters. I must ponder this while I cry myself to sleep tonight over another loss.

[dnbman]

I don't think the sky is falling, but I think many fans were overly optimistic. Not only did many overestimate Charlotte, but teams like Orlando and Boston were grossly underrated. Granted, both teams are an injury away from the lottery, but they're going to be two of the top 3 teams.

We're right in the middle. On any given night we'll be able to beat anyone, especially if we're hitting shots. But if we're not, we'll lose a lot of games.

I'm still predicting wins in the mid to high 30s, coming just short of the playoffs.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

I wouldn't trade Walter...EVER

[davcbow]

Ahhhhhh the real world shows its ugly face. I love the Bobcats and I want us to win a championship, but I do know it wont happen this year but if we keep getting new talent and such each year and with all our injuries healing up we will be good next year and even better the year after that for who knows how long. You just cant build a team as quickly as you used to be able to do because there are more teams now a days so the talent is spread out further. It just takes time to build a good team unless you have a genious in charge of obtaining new talent goes out and buys a team like Boston did this year with Minnesota. Hang in there guys our time is coming...... :g:

Go Bobcats!!!

[TheBeagle]

Well, I've thought this many times, but I think the difference in how quickly we could have been a contender, instead of how slow it's looking like it's going to be relies on our first two drafts.

1. If Orlando had chosen Mek, we would have Howard.
2. If we could've gotten just decent luck in '05, we could have CP.

In this dream scenario, we would have a starting lineup of CP, GW, Howard, with a PF and SG to complement them acquired either by trade, draft, or free agency. I'm fascinated with 'what-ifs', and in this example, I think we would be a playoff lock with potential for home court in the first round, barring serious injuries.

Back to reality, this team is massively flawed, and maybe some of us were overly optimistic, but I think we were hoodwinked with JRich. I'll be damned if Stephen A. Smith didn't know what he was talking about. We have no upside with JRich, and we're a slightly below average team with nothing in the middle. If we had kept Brandan, we had have some upside, still be a slightly below average team with the potential for something in the middle besides Mek. I'm not quite ready to give up on JRich, but I really get the feeling us fans made a deal with a horse trader; telling us we're getting something that's nothing at all what it actually is. Shit, the only air that gets beneath JRich's feet is when he's shooting a jumper, not counting all 5 dunks he's had this year (if that many).

Also, I don't think we can beat anybody on any given night, Dnb. You honestly think we can beat the Suns, Spurs, Celtics, Mavericks, or Magic for that matter? I don't think we can even compete with the Lakers, and that's a team we swept last year. I honestly don't think we have a prayer. Our only quality win this year has been against the Bucks on opening night, and that was a squeaker. The toughest teams we've played have been Phoenix and Orlando, both of whom we lost to by double digits. Houston has been shown to be fools gold, which we should have guessed because we were able to compete with them.

I'm starting to wish I didn't have tix to tomorrow's game so I'll have to watch the Phoenix game: Redux. But I will show up and pull for our guys and hope the best for our best (GW).

Yes, I'm bitter, and will probably be over it by tomorrow, it's just tough eating humble pie for another year, with no obvious or visible signs that it'll get better.

[110oldeast]

I've refrained from saying it, because it's heresy in Charlotte. But as much of a big deal that people make of missing Paul and getting Felton, a bigger miss was (not self-induced) not getting Howard and getting Okafor. I love Okafor, but I hope that we are able to help him see that he is not the max contract player that Howard is.

[ziggy]

I've refrained from saying it, because it's heresy in Charlotte. But as much of a big deal that people make of missing Paul and getting Felton, a bigger miss was (not self-induced) not getting Howard and getting Okafor. I love Okafor, but I hope that we are able to help him see that he is not the max contract player that Howard is.

I'll continue to say it. Emeka is going to wind up with a max deal this offseason barring some kind of big time injury. Hes a little off these numbers now, but hes basically a 15 point, 12 rebound, 2 blocks per game guy and those are really hard to come by.

[ohara831]

I wouldn't trade Walter...EVER
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I would give up Walter at the drop of a hat if I could get my hands on the Atlanta pick held by Phoenix. His Contract expires this year anyway and I do not expect him to resign the way his PT was cut by Sam.

I agree with those who say luck would have been us getting Howard rather than Okafor. But, that is hindsight too. Okafor is a sure double double and everyone knew it then. Howard had huge upside but was a risk. Look at Kwame Brown, the Candy Man, etc.... He just happened to be one who did reach his potential. Cannot look at it and say for sure it was a "mistake", but can say that Howard is proving to be a DOMINANT Center and Okafor a very good PF who is sometimes forced to play out of position as a Center. I do not see the admin paying him a MAX deal, tho; he's good but not a MAX player and I do not see anyone else offering more than Charlotte. We may go up a little on the $13 mil/yr, but not much.

J-Rich has proven to be the winning difference in some games, getting hot in the 3rd or 4th just when we needed. But I agree he is not all that we bargained for at the draft. Still early, and he is good, but not what we were hyping. Time will determine if we got the best of the deal, were hoodwinked, or broke even. That all depends on how Brandan Wallace turns out.

Keep an eye on the studs in College BB. Compare their games to what we need in Charlotte. We will be in the lottery somewhere, that's for sure. Just want to see where we end up picking and who is there. Yes, we need a big man to help Okafor. But if one of the young stud Guards is there, and Jordan and Beasley gone, don't think I'd pass on him. Hey, if you have a BMW in the garage, and someone is going to give you a Rolls Royce, you do not say "Well, I only have a one car garage - sorry but thanks anyway". Hell not, you take that Rolls and let the BMW sit outside - but you do still drive it a good bit! That or sell it to the highest bidder.

[dnbman]

Also, I don't think we can beat anybody on any given night, Dnb. You honestly think we can beat the Suns, Spurs, Celtics, Mavericks, or Magic for that matter?


Actually, yes! If we're making our shots, we can pour it on. When we're making our shots, that pulls the defense out, making more room for our cutters and Okafor inside. If we're not making shots, teams play close to the rim, clogging the middle.

If we execute, move without the ball more, and make shots, I believe we can play with any team in the league. The problem is if we don't make shots, we try a myriad of things to fix the problem, like running Othella and Primo at the same time on the court. (Shouldn't that kill 11 fans automatically? I'm sure a puppy has to be sacrificed.) We'll build consistency over the next couple of months and hopefully play better on both sides of the court.

While talent is an issue right now, the bigger issue is simply not executing and not making shots.

[spectre]

J-Rich has proven to be the winning difference in some games, getting hot in the 3rd or 4th just when we needed.  But I agree he is not all that we bargained for at the draft.  Still early, and he is good, but not what we were hyping.  Time will determine if we got the best of the deal, were hoodwinked, or broke even.  That all depends on how Brandan Wallace turns out.

I agree he's struggling, but I totally disagree that we were "hoodwinked".  What was expected?  I expected a veteran 2 who can hit shots, drive some, pass and rebound.  His vision is much better than I thought and his handles aren't near as bad as some GSW fans were saying.  His rebounds have been HUGE for us, esp. since we don't have that 5th player.

His outside shot has been streaky.  If I'm not mistaken every perimeter player goes thru bouts of streakiness, so I don't understand why it's so unusual for him?  His career FG% is mid 40s and that's what I expect it to balance out to.

His defense was also touted as being pretty bad, but again I don't think it's as bad as was purported.  He couldn't stop Caron Butler...not many CAN stop Butler.  The main thing is he gives effort. FTs? Heh, I doubt anyone in the Bobcats' organization didn't realize JRich struggles at the line since he has all thru his career.

I'm still ecstatic we traded for Jason Richardson.  There was nothing out there which compares to what we did.  Any other scorer would have cost one of the core.

[ohara831]

Sometimes, doing a self analysis can be a painful experience. But, it you do not be honest with yourself, it will do no good at all. You will not learn anything from the experience.

Everyone on this Board loves the Bobcats. We all pull for them night in and night out. We cheer for them, celebrate their wins with them, and agonize over their losses. We ALL want the best for the team, but we may differ on what we each think is "the best for the team". Nothing wrong with that, it's just like a Democracy.

I feel we have overhyped out players. We are thinking some are better than they really are, and that can be dangerous to a team. If you want to build a castle, you have to make sure the foundation is absolutely solid, not just "OK". Some get attached to players because of where they went to College. Cannot do that if you are going to build a winner - just cannot do it. Let it go. I don't care where the player played his College ball, only that he can play and be great at the NBA level. And, if you have to make a change to get better, sometimes you take that chance. We did in the draft last year, and it may or may not prove to be worthwhile. Again, J-Rich has to improve, and then we have to see just how good Brandon Wright acutually becomes.

Management must bring in someone who is a better appraise talent. There is no way we should have taken Morrison over Gay or Roy, but we did so anyway. Was he the next Larry Bird? Was it his marketability? How far did that go? Adam is a good player who can be a very needed 6th man averaging 20-25 minutes and 10-15 pts. That's it though. He is not at the level of those on whom we passed, and many of us on this Board felt so at the Draft. Mistakes happen, but you have to learn from them. So far, I feel that management has not learned anything. I do not know if it is MJ, Bernie, or Robert Johnson. But someone is just making some bad decisions.

[dnbman]

"I feel we have overhyped out players."

That's true. But I also think people underestimate what it takes to make a truly competitive club. There's a reason only a handful of teams have been consistently good and won a championship at all.

Before we're too hard on anyone, let's remember a couple of things:

1. Key injuries. Despite what people want to believe about them, May and Morrison were both high picks and contributors to the future of the team. Having them injured for the season hurts. Imagine last night if Morrison could have gotten his outside shooting going: different ball game. Most people see the obvious need for May. You can't predict that kind of thing.

2. It's still early. 12 games, including short term injuries, isn't enough to see what you have. Hopefully we don't have another season like last year, where you could have thrown dice with our players' names on it to determine playing time.

We need consistency. After that, we can sort things out and determine what we need to change. As of now, everybody on the squad has had great moments and poor moments, inconsistency beyond even realistic expectations for an NBA player.

[ohara831]

"I feel we have overhyped out players."

That's true. But I also think people underestimate what it takes to make a truly competitive club. There's a reason only a handful of teams have been consistently good and won a championship at all.

Before we're too hard on anyone, let's remember a couple of things:

1. Key injuries. Despite what people want to believe about them, May and Morrison were both high picks and contributors to the future of the team. Having them injured for the season hurts. Imagine last night if Morrison could have gotten his outside shooting going: different ball game. Most people see the obvious need for May. You can't predict that kind of thing.

2. It's still early. 12 games, including short term injuries, isn't enough to see what you have. Hopefully we don't have another season like last year, where you could have thrown dice with our players' names on it to determine playing time.

We need consistency. After that, we can sort things out and determine what we need to change. As of now, everybody on the squad has had great moments and poor moments, inconsistency beyond even realistic expectations for an NBA player.
__________________________________________________ ____

Dnbman: You do speak the truth. I agree with a great deal of your words and I am sure with all of your desires to see the Bobcats excel. I just believe that we must always be looking to get better. This is what I see.

We have been saying we are just one good big man away from being challengers for the East Title. That may be. But, we are also one key injury away from the Cellar. One truth is this: We do NOT possess that one great weapon, that one person who is a TRUE Franchise Player. With the picks we have had over these first few years, we have not managed to find that Franchise Player. I see a FEW of them in this years Draft coming, and I believe with the injuries sustained and our off season moves (or failure to make the right moves) that we will be back in the Lottery again. That is why I am saying right now: We can see the future of this team THIS year, and it is not the Playoffs. If not, then let's move who we can OTHER THAN OUR CORE IF POSSIBLE, and get that Phoenix pick they have from Orlando. Phonenix has a window of 2-3 more years, and they want certain pieces to get them over the top. They do not need Rookies who will take a couple years to blossom. That is why I think that Herrmann is prime to move. Nash moves the ball so well, that he is always in need of set shot jump shooters, and that is Herrmann. Herrmann is gone after this season as he will not sign with us for lo little PT as he is getting, especially with May and Ammo returning next season. If we have 2 Lottery picks, with any luck at all, we may find out way into one of those Franchise players, and another who is an immediate impact player.

It all comes down to timing. This is a down year for us with injuries and questionable off season moves. This is an upcoming draft with Deep and Tremendous young talent. We can afford to bring in 2 young bucks and let them learn from our vets who are still quite young themselves. You strike when the fire is hot, and I just believe the time is now. I know some will say to not give up on the season and wait. Two months from now may be too late to get what we want from Phoenix. If Atlanta starts to drown, then the value of the pick goes up too high for us. As Atlanta is doing about like us, then we may be able to get the pick without much damage. We will lose Herrmann after the season anyway, and Sam is not big on playing him much anyway. When Ammo and May return, do you think he will get any more PT? No. He is gone, so get value for him rather than let him walk at season's end. It's the timing of it all that makes the difference in a move being great or mediocre.

Like all of you out there, I love this team. Do not take my criticism as mean spirited or in malice. It is not that way at all. I love this team. I want them to excel, and I want them to make every move possible at any time possible IF it will help our future. I just do not like to wait and see when I know what is coming down the pipe. Take charge of the situation, and make your own destiny.

[dnbman]

At least to me, you don't have to defend your status as a fan while criticizing the team. I get it! I do it all of the time.

It's just tough to judge now because of the injuries AND having such a new system and group of players (Richardson, Dudley, and Davidson).

I used to think that we should basically be terrible for the first few seasons, stock up on high lottery draft picks, and then sign any free agent we can to make a playoff run. However, the draft is clearly no sure thing. So, while I do like the idea of converting talent we're not using to draft picks, I want to see that we're truly not using that talent before we trade it. Case in point: Jake the Snake. While we didn't trade him, we could REALLY use him right now. Come to think of it, we're probably the thinnest at the 4-5 as we've been since season one. At any rate, I completely get where you're coming from. However, we don't know whether guys are definitely in or out with Vincent. Last night, Hermann got a lot of burn.

12 games in, it's just too early to tell. I don't think Phoenix is ready yet either. They'll see how things are going and make a move later. I'm sure they want to trade the pick, but I'm also sure they're going to use it on an asset they need.

By the way, is that not one of the picks that went to Seattle?

Speaking of which, I sure wish we would have done that Kurt Thomas trade now. man!

[ohara831]

Man o Man! How damn appropriate was I on the Cubs comparison. My gosh, this is like the guy interfering with the pop up that cost the Cubs that game a few years ago. Remember the Bartman stuff?

We are playing the back end of a back to back vs the 2 best teams in the East. Get out butts kicked last night. Then tonight against the best, without our best player and back up Center (who is our best Center), we somehow find a way to grasp Defeat out of the jaws of Victory!

Is everyone feeling that deep pit in your gut fight now? I did not give us a chance tonight, but somehow we managed to play well enough to give us all the idea that we were going to dig deep and pull this off, and then we LITERALLY "Threw the game away!"

At least we will make the Sports Center highlights as the best finish of the night!

[ohara831]

At least to me, you don't have to defend your status as a fan while criticizing the team. I get it! I do it all of the time.

It's just tough to judge now because of the injuries AND having such a new system and group of players (Richardson, Dudley, and Davidson).

I used to think that we should basically be terrible for the first few seasons, stock up on high lottery draft picks, and then sign any free agent we can to make a playoff run. However, the draft is clearly no sure thing. So, while I do like the idea of converting talent we're not using to draft picks, I want to see that we're truly not using that talent before we trade it. Case in point: Jake the Snake. While we didn't trade him, we could REALLY use him right now. Come to think of it, we're probably the thinnest at the 4-5 as we've been since season one. At any rate, I completely get where you're coming from. However, we don't know whether guys are definitely in or out with Vincent. Last night, Hermann got a lot of burn.

12 games in, it's just too early to tell. I don't think Phoenix is ready yet either. They'll see how things are going and make a move later. I'm sure they want to trade the pick, but I'm also sure they're going to use it on an asset they need.

By the way, is that not one of the picks that went to Seattle?

Speaking of which, I sure wish we would have done that Kurt Thomas trade now. man!
__________________________________________________

I have always liked Kurt Thomas; I agree he would have been crucial right now to our game needs.

nbadraft.net updates Daily with a mock draft. They have Phoenix with the 8th pick which must be Atlanta's pick. I do not think it went to Seattle, but I could be wrong.

[Dunk]

I don't think the J-Rich trade was bad at all. Right now Brandan Wright is basically Ryan Hollins redux. That's all he may ever be. With J-Rich we knew, more or less, what we were getting. A shooting guard which allowed us to move Felton to PG (which has worked out for us on both ends). We don't need to rebuild anymore.

Emeka is a very good PF. With the draft you never know what you'll get. Howard turned out to be awesome but it was a risk and sometimes those big time risks don't pan out. You can't really predict who will be a franchise player all the time. Who thought Dwayne Wade and Steve Nash would be this good? I can't see Emeka being more than $12-13M a year at his production.

The Hermann situation is interesting. I don't know if you get a 1st for him. I doubt it. You could showcase him and package him with a first from the year after if this year's draft is particularly deep. What about the free agent class, particularly big men?

I believe that we need an average to above average C. With a healthy May and Morrison, we have an improved bench next year. Also, I think we have a couple of contracts that are up that may allow us to go after another guard and/or PF so some upgrades may be possible.

No matter how you slice it, I think we're in agreement (and I thought so at the beginning of the year) that we might be a 40 win team if we stayed healthy. We're 1-2 pieces short of finishing the puzzle to take it to the next level.

[TheBeagle]

Also, I don't think we can beat anybody on any given night, Dnb. You honestly think we can beat the Suns, Spurs, Celtics, Mavericks, or Magic for that matter?


Actually, yes! If we're making our shots, we can pour it on. When we're making our shots, that pulls the defense out, making more room for our cutters and Okafor inside. If we're not making shots, teams play close to the rim, clogging the middle.

If we execute, move without the ball more, and make shots, I believe we can play with any team in the league. The problem is if we don't make shots, we try a myriad of things to fix the problem, like running Othella and Primo at the same time on the court. (Shouldn't that kill 11 fans automatically? I'm sure a puppy has to be sacrificed.) We'll build consistency over the next couple of months and hopefully play better on both sides of the court.

While talent is an issue right now, the bigger issue is simply not executing and not making shots.
Well, all of that plays into my argument that we can't beat those teams listed above (and probably some others if I thought about it enough). You can place all the qualifications you want and it'll help back up your argument, but the real game of basketball you don't get the benefits of "ifs."

Tonight, tragically so, proves my point. We shot lights-out from 3, and very good from the field in general, FTs were also acceptable, but we still lost. Talent-be-damned, we fought these guys to the brink, but we couldn't close it out, due to a myriad of reasons, but mostly because of horrible late-game management by our PGs and especially Sam not calling his 20 second TO, not putting Matt into the game for FTs, and for having the entire team line up out of bounds on the other teams side of the court, instead of having them all on the other end of the court, except for either Matt or Raymond, who should've been the only ones on that side of the court. Seriously, that's basic basketball, and our coach (and by association) our players just don't get it.

It's all these factors that play into my belief that we can't beat any team on any given night.

PS. I will amend my list and say that I think on any given night we can beat the Mavericks, since the Pacers and the Bucks have beaten them now.

It's all these factors that play into my belief that we can't beat any team on any given night.

[spectre]

Beagle, you're rationalizing like everything now...we HAD that game! To me last night proved exactly the opposite of what your saying. We played tough defense and a lot of guys stood up to take up the slack of Crash being out.

Stupid mistakes at the end kept us from beating the hottest team in the NBA. Those are going to get fewer and fewer as this season goes along.

I'm still sick to my stomach, but for 47:53 we played what could be the NBA champs like we deserved to be there.

[ohara831]

You see, this is what I mean. Stupid mistakes at the most unbelievable times. How can J-Rich not call the TO? They reminded him of it before the play?
This is what i mean by feeling like the Lovable Losers - The Cubs.

We have got to turn things around. Our whole "feel" just feels wrong to me. I cannot explain it, but something just feels all wrong to me about out personnel and set up. WE have some good pieces, but something about us just is not right. It is more than needing another Big to play with Okafor. We need change.
Yes, I know it is early. But I am only laying my thoughts out there for you to read and discuss. It is an odd feeling, and I just wonder if any of you out there are feeling the same way. That there is something wrong with the entire mix of players and personnel.

[123together]

this may be a bit overboard, but losing in that fashion hurts and it sucks. i was at the game and i was in shock for a good 30 seconds. cubs fans haven't won a world series in about a century, the bobcats haven't won the nba title in 4 years. but these losers are lovable no doubt


i will say tho, losing to the best team in the nba that needed a last second shot without our best player was pretty impressive

[110oldeast]

I'll continue to say it. Emeka is going to wind up with a max deal this offseason barring some kind of big time injury. Hes a little off these numbers now, but hes basically a 15 point, 12 rebound, 2 blocks per game guy and those are really hard to come by.



ziggy,

Those numbers aren't close to max numbers. And tell me who besides the Bobcats would give Okafor anything close to a max deal? The rest of the league is currently questioning why he did not take the generous offer the Bobcats put out there before.

[davcbow]

Those numbers aren't close to max numbers. And tell me who besides the Bobcats would give Okafor anything close to a max deal? The rest of the league is currently questioning why he did not take the generous offer the Bobcats put out there before.


I garantee it wasnt MEk but his rep manager telling to hold out for more money.... :g:

[ziggy]

I'll continue to say it. Emeka is going to wind up with a max deal this offseason barring some kind of big time injury. Hes a little off these numbers now, but hes basically a 15 point, 12 rebound, 2 blocks per game guy and those are really hard to come by.



ziggy,

Those numbers aren't close to max numbers. And tell me who besides the Bobcats would give Okafor anything close to a max deal? The rest of the league is currently questioning why he did not take the generous offer the Bobcats put out there before.

Its too early to tell at this point who would give him the money, but lets look at it from a different angle: If we wanted to get someone thats going to give us 15 points, 12+ boards, shoot 50%+ from the field and give us 2 blocks per game, who else could we get that would not cost us a max contract??? I think nobody.
The pickings are slim for people who can put up those numbers

[TheBeagle]

You see, this is what I mean. Stupid mistakes at the most unbelievable times. How can J-Rich not call the TO? They reminded him of it before the play?
This is what i mean by feeling like the Lovable Losers - The Cubs.

We have got to turn things around. Our whole "feel" just feels wrong to me. I cannot explain it, but something just feels all wrong to me about out personnel and set up. WE have some good pieces, but something about us just is not right. It is more than needing another Big to play with Okafor. We need change.
Yes, I know it is early. But I am only laying my thoughts out there for you to read and discuss. It is an odd feeling, and I just wonder if any of you out there are feeling the same way. That there is something wrong with the entire mix of players and personnel.
I'm with you all the way, ohara. On the Boston game thread I basically stated that we need a change in culture. The Bobcats have become the king of the moral victories and our fans are still okay with it (see spectre's post above). That loss last night was the same end result as the Phoenix loss, the Philly loss, the Wiz loss, the Hawks loss, etc. What does it matter that we played this team to the brink, before just short of giving them the game (and an open 3 for Ray Allen is basically that)?

These guys have continuosly lost these kinds of games going back to year 1, and we still don't get it. It pains me to say it, but last night was what has become a typical Bobcats loss: they do everything they can to stay in the game, and give themselves a great opportunity to win, but they don't. It happened with Bernie, it's happening with Sam, therefore it has to do with the personnel moreso than coaching (which has admittedly been pisspoor also).

As far as solutions: hitting FTs is huge. If Raymond had gone 2 for 2 instead of 1 for 2 at the end, we'd have gone to OT.

Practice late-game scenarios at each practice.

Bring in a player who has shown to be clutch in the NBA, not the NCAA. As well as a player or players who have NBA postseason success.

Also, we need someone who is a true vocal leader and is not afraid to chew ass when a teammate makes a mistake. Now I'm not talking about somebody like Gary Payton who just pissses his teammates off, but somebody whom the other player's respect, and whom the other player's must answer to. I've seen GW exhibit this at times, and he may eventually be this player; only time will tell.

A sea change in our culture is needed, for sure, but can it happen? :g:

[spectre]

I'm with you all the way, ohara. On the Boston game thread I basically stated that we need a change in culture. The Bobcats have become the king of the moral victories and our fans are still okay with it (see spectre's post above). That loss last night was the same end result as the Phoenix loss, the Philly loss, the Wiz loss, the Hawks loss, etc. What does it matter that we played this team to the brink, before just short of giving them the game (and an open 3 for Ray Allen is basically that)?

All that would have merit if we'd brought in a Stan Van Gundy as our coach and traded for Kurt Thomas. Instead we brought in Sam Vincent, a man who's time in the NBA consists of ONE year as an assistant in Dallas.

Kind of a high standard to be holding a guy with 12 games under his belt don't you think?

Blame the hiring...maybe a vet coach could have done better (probably would have called a timeout himself to settle everyone down against Boston) and got us 2-3 more victories already. I feel he probably would have. Regardless, that doesn't change the reality of NOW. V's got to have time. Felton's got to have time. Crash/JRich has got to have time.

I've pointed this out before, but it took Sam Mitchell 3 years before he got the Raptors playing well, and they started out one hell of a lot more established than we are.

[dav7z]

OK50 Is fine , Felton , Rich , Wallace are all doing OK . We have never started this good . Yes we banged up but we playing 5,00 ball . 42 wins and a 7th or eight seed is about where we should be .
Dudley and Davidson are both doing good. Boston got lucky to beat us and us with out Wallace our best player.
Had Wallace not got hurt we would all be flying high right now with 2 more wins ,[ the over time game and rhe Boston game]
So please give us a chance . We no where near as bad as a lot of you are stating.

[110oldeast]

Its too early to tell at this point who would give him the money, but lets look at it from a different angle: If we wanted to get someone thats going to give us 15 points, 12+ boards, shoot 50%+ from the field and give us 2 blocks per game, who else could we get that would not cost us a max contract??? I think nobody.
The pickings are slim for people who can put up those numbers
[/quote]

Ziggy,

Being a max player goes beyond numbers, as the right use of a system can help a guy get those numbers. While Mek has a dominant DEFENSIVE player, his offensive repetoire is not going to garner that kind of money. He's not a guy we can just dump it into and run the offense through. Look at what Dwight did to us against Orlando. THAT is why he is a max player. He does not have the ability to dominate offensively and take over games that way. He has a nice hook, that he can sometimes use left-handed as well, but is not near dominant level offensively. And while a great defensive player, he's not Bill Russell (WHO is) to the point that anyone is going to throw 85 mill his way. Further, his durability has not been proven yet.

And to the person who said that the Dwight/Okafor thing was luck as far as player future projections. I would disagree. Most people in NBA circles would have told you that they would want Dwight because of size, explosiveness, ability, and upside. Mek was more of a finished product, but even then was not much above Dwight. Mek also had injury question marks (back and such). However, b/c Mek was such a solid citizen AND terrific player everyone was more PC about it. Further, Charlotte is such a college sports town that the Bobcats would have probably been to nervous to draft a High Schooler (even though Dwight's a choir boy) with their first pick over a NCAA champion, top player, who had graduated with a Finance degree in 3 years. PR.

I LOVE Emeka Okafor. My only point is that he turned down a very generous deal that has GMs and media folks around the league scratching their heads. If he plays himself into a max deal, we will make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs this year, easily. I just don't see that in his game, however.