Hollinger's Point Guard Rankings

[ohara831]

You will recall a few weeks ago I started a Thread called "Ray is not a true PG". It drew quite a bit of talk, most disagreeing with me.

ESPN Insider has a segment today where Hollinger ranked the NBA Point Guards. I was looking on the list and noticed NO RAYMOND FELTON. What, I asked myself? How is this. I did notice McInnis ranking a solid #45 out of 48. Way to bring up the back, baby!

I then looked at his rankings on Shooting Guards. Lo and behold, there is Ray, ranked #31 out of 112.

It seems that to qualify, you have to play a certain amount of minutes at that position. Interesting, that Ray playes more minutes at the 2 than the 1.

Kinda makes my point that Ray is not a true point guard. Not saying he isn't a good player; just not a true point guard. 3rd yr in the NBA and not playing enough minutes to qualify as a PG.

[ohara831]

Oh yeah, J-Rich was #53 of 112.

[Cantgetright]

relying on Hollinger to tell you what position a player plays is not something I would start a thread out with...LOL :g:

Felton is a PG. Felton will probally be an All Star PG in a year or 2. Please look at the best PG in the league over the last 5 years and look at how his stats in his first years compare to Feltons.

Steve Nash played in the league for 5 seasons before he ever avg'd over 5.5 assists per game. Feltons lowest season has been 5.6. Let's compare Steve Nash's 5th season in the NBA to Feltons 3rd season (through only 21 games for Felton's 3rd)

POINTS
NASH-15.6
Felton-15.6

ASSISTS
Nash- 7.0
Felton-6.6

REBS
Nash-3.2
Felton-3.0

STLS
NASH-1.0
Felton 1.4

Felton compares very favorably to one of the greatest PG's to ever play the game. Not saying that he will end up as good as Nash but, his career is off to a much better and faster start.

In the east how many PG's are better than Ray?
2 are clearly better and they are
Jason Kidd- 34 years old and shooting 38% from the floor but, avg's about 11 ASSTS and 8.6 boards.

C. Billups--31 years old and avg's about what Felton does and shoots from the floor about what Felton does. Took him about 8 seasons to get to where Felton is now as far as player progression.

Felton is only 23 years old and is going to be a great NBA PG in another year or two.

[ohara831]

Cantgetright: The issue is that Ray is not getting the minutes to qualify for a PG status. Why is that? Let's ask ourselves why.
In his first yr, Bernie wanted him to learn form Brevin. OK, I get that. In yr 2, we thought he might be ready to start, but Bernie saw something that made him wait. Now it's yr 3. We were told that Ray was to take the reigns and run as our starting PG. But something happened. What was it? MJ, Bernie and Sam all watch things closely. They are in the practice sessions, behind the doors, watching and analyzing. They obviously do not think Ray is ready YET to even be the starting PG.

Look, we want Ray to be the starter. But, the people in the organization, as much as I bash them for what I see as ineptitude at times, can all 3 of them be that far off base on Ray and his talent as a PG? All 3 of them? Or, is it that we as the fans think of what he did in College, see the occasional game in which he does well, and then hope against hope that he is turning that corner.

As for Hollinger and some of the ESPN guys, they turn out to be correct far more than we do, that's for sure. Hollinger had us near the bottom when we were 6-4 saying that we were not as good as our record, and he was right. Stephen A. Smith bashed us on draft night for the J-Rich trade, and he was right. And I'll wager that Ray will not be an All Star Point Guard in the next 2 years. You're living in La La land if you think he is that good.

[dnbman]

Cantgetright: The issue is that Ray is not getting the minutes to qualify for a PG status. Why is that? Let's ask ourselves why.
In his first yr, Bernie wanted him to learn form Brevin. OK, I get that. In yr 2, we thought he might be ready to start, but Bernie saw something that made him wait. Now it's yr 3. We were told that Ray was to take the reigns and run as our starting PG. But something happened. What was it? MJ, Bernie and Sam all watch things closely. They are in the practice sessions, behind the doors, watching and analyzing. They obviously do not think Ray is ready YET to even be the starting PG.

Look, we want Ray to be the starter. But, the people in the organization, as much as I bash them for what I see as ineptitude at times, can all 3 of them be that far off base on Ray and his talent as a PG? All 3 of them? Or, is it that we as the fans think of what he did in College, see the occasional game in which he does well, and then hope against hope that he is turning that corner.

As for Hollinger and some of the ESPN guys, they turn out to be correct far more than we do, that's for sure. Hollinger had us near the bottom when we were 6-4 saying that we were not as good as our record, and he was right. Stephen A. Smith bashed us on draft night for the J-Rich trade, and he was right. And I'll wager that Ray will not be an All Star Point Guard in the next 2 years. You're living in La La land if you think he is that good.


Ohara, I think it has less to do with Felton being a bad pg and more to do with Felton being a good scorer. His fg% aside, Felton can create and score. By putting McInnis in at pg, that gives us a back court of two players who can theoretically create offense for others. (STOP THAT SNICKERING IN THE BACK!) Carroll and Richardson are both guys who can score, but don't create much offense for others.

Last year, Felton was our best option at the 2, although Carroll had some great minutes there. I'm not saying that Felton isn't taken off the 1 at times because he's making mistakes. I'm sure part of the time McInnis is in there to have a steadier hand running the show. However, Felton stays in the game because of the double threat of creating and scoring.

He's got to learn the game, but his play at sg doesn't speak as negatively on his play as a pg as it does his strength of play overall.

[ohara831]

Dnbman: I do agree with you about Ray's scoring ability. Let me pose this question to you. Suppose we have a top 3 pick in the draft. You can go with Jordan from Texas A&M at the Center, take Gordon from Indiana as your SG or take Rose from Memphis as your PG. (Beasley goes 1st and I do not think we will be worst) Do you take the Center? Do you take Gordon to replace J-Rich and let J-Rich come off bench? Or, do you take Rose, let him be out starting PG, moving Ray to the SG position. I like that best. That gives Ray the SG slot and he has the ability to penetrate and dish also. Ray can be our back up PG, which is a high quality back up, and if needed, J-Rich steps in occasionally to start at the SG if Ray is injured/sick/foul trouble. That scenario takes care of 2 positions for us(PG and SG) while the other options take care of only one. Either way, unless we take the Center first, then J-Rich is heading to the bench to be our 6th man.

[swetooth9]

i dont think we're paying jrich that type of money to come off the bench...

[ohara831]

i dont think we're paying jrich that type of money to come off the bench...
__________________________________________________

Do you play a guy just because of the money you pay him? No. You play him for his production on the court. If you have someone else who can score more points, and play better defense, then he starts over the higher salary guy. To not do so is to spit in the face of logic and reason.

[TheBeagle]

i dont think we're paying jrich that type of money to come off the bench...
Conversely, I don't think we're paying the guy that type of money to dribble the $^&**#*@ ball out of bounds being guarded by no one. Ohara is absolutely right about that; the day you play someone based on salary is the day you can kiss your fans goodbye!!

[TheBeagle]

Oh yeah, J-Rich was #53 of 112.
Wow! That high? :) Also, I agree that Felton is best-suited for us to be the 2 guard, as I've stated elsewhere in my list of 12 changes that I'd make if I were in charge. In Raymond's defense, he was never blessed with any real 2 guard to play alongside him, so I'm not ready to say he is a bust as a PG, it's just the poor talent at the 2 and the lack of any real scoring threats (GW has his moments, but, you know) that make it necessary for him to be the 2 guard, something like the Jason Terry mode.

[dvdbumpus]

I'd love to put Matt in the SG spot, move J-rich to SF and Crash to PF. At least 20 minutes of the game that Nazr won't be playing.

Have we really used that lineup at all?

[spectre]

I'd love to put Matt in the SG spot, move J-rich to SF and Crash to PF. At least 20 minutes of the game that Nazr won't be playing.

Have we really used that lineup at all?


Not much, and only as a last resort really.

Oh, I disagree with all the posts saying Felts is really a 2 guard...unless guys like Chauncy Billups are really just 2 guards. He plays that position because he has better all around skills than either JRich or Hammer. He's a better defender at the 2 than either of them.

I think we need to trade in Hammer for a Cory Brewer type.

[dav7z]

Hammer with his contract is tradeable. As it's much worst contracts out thair. I agree Felton playing the two reflects Riches ability to guard the two more than Feltons ability to play the point. But Mcinnis is not the answer . Felton and Hammer would be a better option . Problem hear is Hammer plays no better defence than Rich.
Playing two bigs should cover up some of the lack of defence out thair . With Naz and OK50 it should br harder to drive to the basket.

[spectre]

Hammer with his contract is tradeable. As it's much worst contracts out thair. I agree Felton playing the two reflects Riches ability to guard the two more than Feltons ability to play the point. But Mcinnis is not the answer . Felton and Hammer would be a better option . Problem hear is Hammer plays no better defence than Rich.
Playing two bigs should cover up some of the lack of defence out thair . With Naz and OK50 it should br harder to drive to the basket.


A very good combo guard would do the trick like in the Roy mold...about 6'4", has handles, play defense and not hurt us on offense.

If we'd have drafted Roy Felton probably would never see the SG spot.

[dvdbumpus]

Problem hear is Hammer plays no better defence than Rich.
Playing two bigs should cover up some of the lack of defence out thair . With Naz and OK50 it should br harder to drive to the basket.


Hammer may not have defense but that can be improved and his offense is crisp. Most reliable shot we have.

[spectre]

Problem hear is Hammer plays no better defence than Rich.
Playing two bigs should cover up some of the lack of defence out thair . With Naz and OK50 it should br harder to drive to the basket.


Hammer may not have defense but that can be improved and his offense is crisp. Most reliable shot we have.


I like Hammer...I really do. He has a great work ethic and as you said he has gotten somewhat better on D. With him backing up JRich tho that makes the main 2 guys at the SG the weak position on defense. Being as how the stars in the league are usually at the 2 and the 3 there's definitely a problem. Adding Hammer's contract into the mix (paying 18 million +/- combined) makes it even worse. Add in Ammo...well, you see where I'm going.

Felton is by far the best defender we have at the 1 & 2 AND he can score. That's why he's on the court so much with Touche'. We can replace Touche', but until we can get someone to not be a sieve on D at the 2 Felton will get burn there.

[dav7z]

Bumpus my statement was not a cheap shot at the Hammer . But i was basicly saying Rich is no defencive stoper either and Hammer contract is not back breaking. As he will earn his money over he next six years . All so his contract is frunt loaded which will help the team tons down the road.

[davcbow]

Bumpus my statement was not a cheap shot at the Hammer . But i was basicly saying Rich is no defencive stoper either and Hammer contract is not back breaking. As he will earn his money over he next six years . All so his contract is frunt loaded which will help the team tons down the road.


Does front loaded mean that most of the money is the first part of the contract? Im not clear on that term front loaded..... :g:

[dvdbumpus]

Bumpus my statement was not a cheap shot at the Hammer . But i was basicly saying Rich is no defencive stoper either and Hammer contract is not back breaking. As he will earn his money over he next six years . All so his contract is frunt loaded which will help the team tons down the road.


Does front loaded mean that most of the money is the first part of the contract? Im not clear on that term front loaded..... :g:


Yes, yes it is.

Would this be an option: Have Matt play the 2 spot on offense and 3 spot on defense, thus letting Crash guard the best opposing offensive player if it's at the 2. He should just do that regardless.

[Muttley]

You know Bumpus, that's something I had not been looking at when I watch games, but it's a great point. Has Crash been guarding the opposition's best 2/3/or/4 scoring threat? I honestly can't remember. For some reason, I recall him guarding Caron when we played the Wiz a month ago, but Caron still got his (39 points). I almost have to say that Crash has to have been manning up against their best player, because to plan something otherwise seems absurd.
No reason to not be able to make these switches if we're playing a team whose offense isn't run 'n' gun.

[spectre]

Bill Simmons Top 50 Trade Value Chart (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071218)

The podcast link is here (http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?context=podcast&id=3158456)

Make sure and look at what Simmons values in regards to his rankings (contract, potential, etc.).

Mek fell totally out of it...


Here were the toughest omissions from this year's Top 50, going from "not as tough" to "agonizingly tough":

Emeka Okafor: Gawd, remember those losers who wrote Orlando was crazy to pick Dwight Howard over him? Morons.

(Note to my editors: Please destroy all remnants of my 2004 Draft Diary from my archives. Delete the column, delete it again, then delete it a third time to be safe. Thanks.)

Felts moved into the top 50 in the section "cost effective building blocks":

50 - Biedrins
49 - Barbosa
48 - Felton
47 - Bargnani
46 - Jianlian
45 - Kamen
44 - Bynum

The actual order is derived from the podcast.

I continue to think that Bobcats' fans severely under rate Felton...esp. trade value wise.

EDIT:

Well crap, Simmons' changed it.  His podcast came out first and I based the listings off of that.

Sorry for the confusion.

[ohara831]

Spectre: Did you notice on the link that he also mentioned the 10 worst Contracts right now? He has the Nazr Mohammed contract as the 10th worse in the league. Ouch. I'm surprised he did not put J-Rich somewhere in there.

[spectre]

Spectre: Did you notice on the link that he also mentioned the 10 worst Contracts right now? He has the Nazr Mohammed contract as the 10th worse in the league. Ouch. I'm surprised he did not put J-Rich somewhere in there.


Yeah, I noticed...but didn't really agree with it. Like I said in my previous post you have to realize what Simmon's is putting value on. If you go thru those players like I did this morning on Sham Sports, look at their stats now as well as when they got consistent minutes Nazr doesn't look so bad.

Add in what we'd have had to pay in sending talent/picks back to get a better experienced big then I still think Nazr was the best choice for us. Nazr's contract might be "bad", but we gave up almost nothing to get him.

Remember the contract was initially why I was "eh" on the deal...since then I've tried to look at the bigger picture.

I can elaborate on that point more (and probably better) a little later if you want...but right now it's time to go home!!!

[Alex]

Seriously? John Hollinger? Since when has anybody cared about anything he does? He doesn't even know anything about sports, he just takes player's stats and puts them in his weird ass formulas.