Ray and Okafor

[ohara831]

OK. I am now satisfied with the Nazr trade. He is doing more than holding his own at the Center position. He and Chandler had a war tonight, and I am pleased with 15 pts and 14 rebs.

It is becoming more and more clear as the season progresses that Crash, J-Rich and Nazr seem to be the ones whom we can at least fairly often count on to show up for the game. I am just so disappointed with the uninspired play of Ray and Okafor. Okafor has done nothing to show us he deserves even the $13 mil/yr offered. Ray is just not able to play the PG consistently. If he was, then Vincent, Bernie and MJ would have him do so. He still must cede much of the play to McInnis, which tells me he is just not able to play the NBA PG position. Is he better suited to play the 2 Guard? I dont know, but it is clear to me that the main objective is either to draft a terrific PG like Rose if we have the pick high enough to grab him, or go with the PF position. Nazr can play the 5 hole well enough, but Okafor is just not doing the job as the PF. West killed him tonight when you compare the nubmers - 20 pts and 10 reb to 10 pts and 13 rebs. I'm sorry to have to say it again, but he is just not cutting the mustard.

Do you my fellow Bobcat fans agree or not? Are the 2 weakest links Ray and Okafor? Are there any out there who would now consider trading Okafor for a 1st rounder?

[ammofan]

I agree, Okafor should be scoring more ( and rebounding more), while MJ and Coach Vincennt have got Felton to pass more, but now he doesn't score at all. That really hurts us.

[ALong13]

They have been both disappointing lately, they've shown signs of greatness at times this year, but they can't be consistent worth a damn...

[dvdbumpus]

Ray has continued his inconsistent streak, and Okafor has just plain seemed to have lost that dominance that made him rookie of the year.

[MattD]

haha did you see my thread... I am with you, and ray is not a good decision maker, I have seen it many times this season, Jrich starts to heat up, o boy does he heat up, and then ray dribbles up and hogs the ball and doesnt get the ball to him, Jrich needs the ball on every possession when hes hot. Its that simple, unless its a wide open fast break... okafor, is not worth more then 7 or 8 mill, period, and I am not even really feelin him for that way too inconsistent beyond the stat lines to be a part of a solid starting five

[Wallace15]

Okafor made a big mistake turning down the 13mil contract we offered him because right now he's playing like he's worth about 6-8mil. Ray's shown no consistency whatsoever this season and isn't looking like the franchise PG we all want him to be. Who's know though. By mid-season they could be playing like all-stars.(doesn't look very likely at this point)

[ohara831]

We seem to be saying the same things. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised with Nazr. I am feeling very good about paying him $6 mil/yr with his production. It just confounds me that we all thought that a good Center to play with Okafor would make Okafor more dominant. Instead, it is like he is just not interested. He's getting the ball, but he is just not shooting the damn thing. Despite J-Rich not playing Defense well, he is starting to make me feel better about his shooting now. Crash will have an off night like every great player deserves. But Ray, wow, talk about taking a step backwards. His 3rd yr, and coaches and mgmnt said that the reins were his for the taking. Instead, he just seems unable to grasp how to be an NBA PG. If we can land a real good PG in the draft, I would love to have Ray play some 2 guard and serve as our back up PG. If his ego can handle it, and since he has given up the role to McInnis so much this yr, that does not seem to be a problem.

I really thought that we might trade Okafor to Phoenix for the Atlanta pick. But now, it looks as though Atlanta will not be in the Lottery at all, so that idea is not too appealing to me at this time. What to do; what to do. Decisions, decisions, decisions!

[dnbman]

I know I've probably given Felton more slack than he deserves, but I do want to add one thing:

Typically Felton is pulled somewhat early in the game, often when he's playing pretty good. For example, he started out pretty solid against Washington. Then he gets back in the game when basically we're down by 12-20 points and the offense is sputtering. So, instead of trying to find any kind of flow in the offense, he resorts to making unnecessary plays to try and catch up quick. Granted, tonight he was mediocre early, but not so bad that he should have been pulled for McInnis.

It's just frustrating to talk about the Bobcats now because so much of what we're doing is bad.

[Muttley]

I think Sam's faith in McInnis is Felton's downfall. Raymond may not be the greatest, and I think he should start playing with just a bit more intensity and focus (hell, we could all use a little of that). However if he was allowed to stay on the floor and work to correct his problems, he might just fix them.

As for Oak. He still needs to be more aggressive, but I can't see how Okafor for a single 1st round pick is worth while. I hope that we'll be able to lock him down at a reasonable rate for at least a couple of years (he'll probably want more years, but likely won't if all he can get is the rate he'll be offered if he doesn't start being more aggressive on offense AND defense).

In any case, if we're in the lottery, we should draft the best player available, with the possible exception of SF.

Dnb's right. It hurts now to be a bobcat's fan and watch these players that we've allied with play so poorly. I was furious watching the game tonight at The Arena. Still not ready to open up shop and send away ray and oak.

[MattD]

I really thought that we might trade Okafor to Phoenix for the Atlanta pick. But now, it looks as though Atlanta will not be in the Lottery at all, so that idea is not too appealing to me at this time. What to do; what to do. Decisions, decisions, decisions!


hmm yes, that is not a good trade... but time will tell, but I dont like okafor's playing recently nor rays. Amare and Mek might be an interesting lineup, if we could swing shawn marion, I like where we are going.

dang ive been playing in the trade machine... its not really working out ehh can we trade players who are rehabing, just out of curiosity?

[TheBeagle]

We seem to be saying the same things. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised with Nazr. I am feeling very good about paying him $6 mil/yr with his production. It just confounds me that we all thought that a good Center to play with Okafor would make Okafor more dominant. Instead, it is like he is just not interested. He's getting the ball, but he is just not shooting the damn thing. Despite J-Rich not playing Defense well, he is starting to make me feel better about his shooting now. Crash will have an off night like every great player deserves. But Ray, wow, talk about taking a step backwards. His 3rd yr, and coaches and mgmnt said that the reins were his for the taking. Instead, he just seems unable to grasp how to be an NBA PG. If we can land a real good PG in the draft, I would love to have Ray play some 2 guard and serve as our back up PG. If his ego can handle it, and since he has given up the role to McInnis so much this yr, that does not seem to be a problem.

I really thought that we might trade Okafor to Phoenix for the Atlanta pick. But now, it looks as though Atlanta will not be in the Lottery at all, so that idea is not too appealing to me at this time. What to do; what to do. Decisions, decisions, decisions!
There's nothing you say in your post that I don't agree with, ohara. Right on!! GW is our rock, and even on an off shooting night, he still brought some nastiness on the defensive end with 3 stls, and absolutely swallowing CP3 up whole on that breakaway layup (or attempted layup!!). Nazr is just what the doctor ordered inside, making Mek look like the old, washed-up player we thought we were getting in Nazr. In fact, when those jackleg Uconn fans were cheering Mek coming in in the 2nd qtr, I was chanting "Nazr's better." Also, it seems that since I reached rock-bottom in my opinion of JRich, he has taken off, and I'm loving it!!! He and GW are still looking good together, despite that botched 2 on 1 fast break we had, where GW tried to squeeze a pass in to JR when he probably should've just jumped over the Hornet and slammed it in (then again, Crash could've crashed and gotten hurt, and no dunk is worth that).

Raymond is not going to make it as a PG in the league, I finally will admit. It's the Carolina PGcurse. No Tarheel has made it as a PG ever that I know of. Tarheel PGs are the equivalent of "system" quarterbacks in college trying to make it in the NFL, except they have a longer shelf life. As opposed to being let loose, they run a rigid system, and are expected to operate within that system, or they will fail. I love Dean Smith to death, but that's just his legacy with PGs: they succeed in college, but don't have "it" when it's time for pro ball. We'll see if that legacy can change with Roy and Ty Lawson, who is Barry Sanders with a basketball, but until I see a Tarheel PG succeed in the pros, I'll doubt that one ever can. Raymond's best chance to last in the NBA is to take on a Jason Terry role, where is mostly a 2 guard, but can dish it off, and bring the ball up court at times also. I think he can excel at this, but he has to focus solely on that, and forget trying to develop PG skills: he needs to think outside jumpers, midrange jumpers, and the occassional drive to the hoop to either dish or draw a foul. I can honestly say that I think Raymond has a future in the league, but not with the Bobcats.

The Mek situation is plain and simple actually. If someone is interested in him, and is either going to give us a PG, nice prospect, or nice draft pick, then we trade him; if not, we let him ride out the rest of the year, and offer him 7-9M per contract; if he refuses, we send him on his merry way, and we free up some cap space to sign Antawn with the MLE (I think that's what spectre has said we can do, since I don't have a clue about contract and GM stuff) and get another big or PG (whichever we don't address in the draft) FA.

This organization is in such a precarious position over the next year and a half: they are a few good decisions away from making this team a perennial playoff contender; yet they are a few bad decisions away from making this team as irrelevant as the Hornets are in New Orleans, or the Grizzlies in Memphis. Wow, I don't envy MJ's job right about now :g:

[davcbow]

Its funny how we fix one problem and another shows up, but we do need a proven point gaurd. McInnis isnt the solution and it dont look like Felts is going to get it any time soon so what can we do? This really wreaks......:mad:

[wil]

okafor and felton are suffering from the same problem.. position confusion!! one is a pretending point guard who shoots and hogs the ball like a shooting guard, and the other one is an undersize center pretending to be a scoring power forward.. trade both before the season ends while some teams might still be interested. basically the flaw of these two were more evident since we started acquiring better personel, with felton, the arrival of j-rich and the growth of wallace has shown he cannot manage well high caliber wing man as a point guard. and with okafor, the arrival of nazr has shown he is not that skilled as all bobcats thought he was, i guess anybody playing with primo will look like an all star considering how stinky he plays.. hehe.
if we want to improve, we have to continually let go of players who just can't cut it and bring us to the next level (playoffs).. and okafor and felton can't. sad but crystal clear true!!!

[tamburello]

Both are disappointing nowadays but look at how many shoots Okafor took last night: five.. 2 weeks ago everybody was trying to give the ball to Oak, was he playing poorly that time also? Big men are always needs to be fed, if they aren't fed, they underachieve.

But I have no solution for Felton, he started great and in last few weeks, he was playing as last 2 years' inconsistent Felton.

I hate to see effortless losses which is just like against Hornets.

[spectre]

Felton's had 2 bad games...before that he had 5 very good games out of the last 6. When the whole team is struggling he always looks bad because he tries to force the offense. There's a coincidence there...

Why does Nazr find it so easy to get shots yet Mek can't?

[ohara831]

Tamburello and Spectre: Tamburello, I think that Spectre has asked the right question re: Okafor and his inability to find the shot. It is not that he is not being fed the ball. He is jsut as much as Nazr. He is just not getting in position to do much with it down low. He seems to always be outside of 5 feet of the rim, and he has no offense out that far. He cannot hit an 8 ft jumper, which will keep him from being an elite PF. He just seems to lack the confidence to pound it inside and force his shot in close which is what Nazr can do.
Spectre: I honestly think Ray is better suited to be a shooting guard who can penetrate when the need arises, and someone who can play the back up PG. I really think his decision making and TO's at crucial times is what causes the Coach and Mgmnt to lose faith in his ability to be "the PG of the team". There is no other explanation for why in God's name that they seem intent on playing McInnis as the PG for so much of the time. It cannot be due to the fact that everone thinks McInnis is a top ten PG in this league; we all know better. So why do they have McInnis play the PG for 1/2 the game? Because he understands the role and makes better decisions than Ray. And I just think that at this point in his developement, it we allow him to shine as a 2 guard who can occasionally spell out PG for some time, that he can continue to grow as a player. If we try and force him to rise to the level of PG that we all wanted and expected, he will not make it.

[Muttley]

O'Hara, suppose you are correct and Raymond will never be a good PG in this league. What should we do with this season? I doubt that we'll be able to truly address the PG position until this summer.

So, hypothetically, we have three options outside of some trade (which I don't know that we could swing something that would help us):

1. Make Felton back-up McInnis.

2. Get a band-aid PG off FA, and play Felton as back-up PG and some SG.

3. Play Felton as our starting PG through the season and see what happens. Then address any lingering issues over the summer.

I don't even want to think about #1.
Maybe #2, but really I'd rather do #3.

[spectre]

I really think his decision making and TO's at crucial times is what causes the Coach and Mgmnt to lose faith in his ability to be "the PG of the team". There is no other explanation for why in God's name that they seem intent on playing McInnis as the PG for so much of the time.

Look at the FG% of any SG other than JRich and you might find an answer.

[ohara831]

O'Hara, suppose you are correct and Raymond will never be a good PG in this league. What should we do with this season? I doubt that we'll be able to truly address the PG position until this summer.

So, hypothetically, we have three options outside of some trade (which I don't know that we could swing something that would help us):

1. Make Felton back-up McInnis.

2. Get a band-aid PG off FA, and play Felton as back-up PG and some SG.

3. Play Felton as our starting PG through the season and see what happens. Then address any lingering issues over the summer.

I don't even want to think about #1.
Maybe #2, but really I'd rather do #3.
__________________________________________________ _

I agree with you.

[Muttley]

O'Hara, suppose you are correct and Raymond will never be a good PG in this league. What should we do with this season? I doubt that we'll be able to truly address the PG position until this summer.

So, hypothetically, we have three options outside of some trade (which I don't know that we could swing something that would help us):

1. Make Felton back-up McInnis.

2. Get a band-aid PG off FA, and play Felton as back-up PG and some SG.

3. Play Felton as our starting PG through the season and see what happens. Then address any lingering issues over the summer.

I don't even want to think about #1.
Maybe #2, but really I'd rather do #3.
__________________________________________________ _

I agree with you.


Cool.

[ziggy]

Sam Vincent starting Jef Mcinnis at the point and Ray at the 2 tells me that he doesn't believe that Ray is really a PG.
The announcers tried to spin it a little saying that it will allow Ray to be a little more offensive minded but I think the simple fact of the matter is that Sam doesn't believe in Ray and he isn't comfortable with him running the show... Also, this is the 2nd coach in Ray's career thats had him play heavy minutes at the 2. We all thought that Bernie was a pure idiot last year for making Ray a SG but maybe he just isn't cut out for the point.

If thats the case, then I don't see where Ray fits in the Bobcats future plans. They don't have faith in him to run the point, Hes not big enough ( or currently good enough ) to be a legitimate SG at the NBA level. Hes not Ben Gordon by any stretch of the imagination.

[spectre]

Funny how that epiphany came in just two days isn't it.

Wonder why he ended the game with Felton at the point and Touche' on the bench? Think maybe he's flipped again?

Don't get me wrong...Felton did not have a very good game. At his worst though he's still usually better than Touche'.

[ohara831]

Sam Vincent starting Jef Mcinnis at the point and Ray at the 2 tells me that he doesn't believe that Ray is really a PG.
The announcers tried to spin it a little saying that it will allow Ray to be a little more offensive minded but I think the simple fact of the matter is that Sam doesn't believe in Ray and he isn't comfortable with him running the show... Also, this is the 2nd coach in Ray's career thats had him play heavy minutes at the 2. We all thought that Bernie was a pure idiot last year for making Ray a SG but maybe he just isn't cut out for the point.

If thats the case, then I don't see where Ray fits in the Bobcats future plans. They don't have faith in him to run the point, Hes not big enough ( or currently good enough ) to be a legitimate SG at the NBA level. Hes not Ben Gordon by any stretch of the imagination.


__________________________________________________ __

That has been what I have been saying for some time. He does show flashes of greatness at times, but then he just comes up short for several other games. It is so frustrating.

Spectre: No one has been harder on J-Rich than I have over the past 2 months. But I have to say, that in the past few weeks, he has gotten his act together and found his stroke. maybe his % is not so great, but when he is scoring like he has been lately, it does make the Defense change and make us more dangerous on offense.

Okafor, I see him either playing for us for much less than the $13 mil he was offered, or he is gone. I am so upset with his play, it makes me want to spit. Everyone on the Board has been harping for months "get him some help inside and he will dominate". Well, we got him some help, and he is shrinking at the challenge laid before him. Nazr looks like the guy who wants $13 mil and Okafor is playing like he is worth only $6 mil. He gets the ball, is not in position, and does not shoot. Ridiculous!

On the Game Thread, I remarked how I was surprised that Coach went small and brought Nazr off the bench. He is one of our most productive players! But, we stayed in the game until the end, so somehow something he did was right. How, I do not know. I did not see the game. But with Nazr coming off the bench for only 21 minutes, we played closer than I imagined we would.

[ziggy]

Don't get me wrong, I think that Felton can be a successful NBA caliber starting PG, but its apparent that folks running show over at the Bobcats offices don't agree with me.

With that being said, I don't see where Ray fits in the long term plans.

[MattD]

Sam Vincent starting Jef Mcinnis at the point and Ray at the 2 tells me that he doesn't believe that Ray is really a PG.
The announcers tried to spin it a little saying that it will allow Ray to be a little more offensive minded but I think the simple fact of the matter is that Sam doesn't believe in Ray and he isn't comfortable with him running the show... Also, this is the 2nd coach in Ray's career thats had him play heavy minutes at the 2. We all thought that Bernie was a pure idiot last year for making Ray a SG but maybe he just isn't cut out for the point.

If thats the case, then I don't see where Ray fits in the Bobcats future plans. They don't have faith in him to run the point, Hes not big enough ( or currently good enough ) to be a legitimate SG at the NBA level. Hes not Ben Gordon by any stretch of the imagination.


__________________________________________________ __

That has been what I have been saying for some time. He does show flashes of greatness at times, but then he just comes up short for several other games. It is so frustrating.

Spectre: No one has been harder on J-Rich than I have over the past 2 months. But I have to say, that in the past few weeks, he has gotten his act together and found his stroke. maybe his % is not so great, but when he is scoring like he has been lately, it does make the Defense change and make us more dangerous on offense.

Okafor, I see him either playing for us for much less than the $13 mil he was offered, or he is gone. I am so upset with his play, it makes me want to spit. Everyone on the Board has been harping for months "get him some help inside and he will dominate". Well, we got him some help, and he is shrinking at the challenge laid before him. Nazr looks like the guy who wants $13 mil and Okafor is playing like he is worth only $6 mil. He gets the ball, is not in position, and does not shoot. Ridiculous!

On the Game Thread, I remarked how I was surprised that Coach went small and brought Nazr off the bench. He is one of our most productive players! But, we stayed in the game until the end, so somehow something he did was right. How, I do not know. I did not see the game. But with Nazr coming off the bench for only 21 minutes, we played closer than I imagined we would.


I hate to say I told you so to the board, but...

I don't think Vincent or Jordan is the problem right now, but hopefully jordan will weedle a way to trade out emeka and ray so we get some value, it could be an interesting off season, I know this may seem like a stretch and a big risk, but gilbert will be a free agent this season... o the combo gil jrich crash the next two would be big ? though i think more realistically we will pickup antwain

[ohara831]

OK. I am now satisfied with the Nazr trade. He is doing more than holding his own at the Center position. He and Chandler had a war tonight, and I am pleased with 15 pts and 14 rebs.

It is becoming more and more clear as the season progresses that Crash, J-Rich and Nazr seem to be the ones whom we can at least fairly often count on to show up for the game. I am just so disappointed with the uninspired play of Ray and Okafor. Okafor has done nothing to show us he deserves even the $13 mil/yr offered. Ray is just not able to play the PG consistently. If he was, then Vincent, Bernie and MJ would have him do so. He still must cede much of the play to McInnis, which tells me he is just not able to play the NBA PG position. Is he better suited to play the 2 Guard? I dont know, but it is clear to me that the main objective is either to draft a terrific PG like Rose if we have the pick high enough to grab him, or go with the PF position. Nazr can play the 5 hole well enough, but Okafor is just not doing the job as the PF. West killed him tonight when you compare the nubmers - 20 pts and 10 reb to 10 pts and 13 rebs. I'm sorry to have to say it again, but he is just not cutting the mustard.

Do you my fellow Bobcat fans agree or not? Are the 2 weakest links Ray and Okafor? Are there any out there who would now consider trading Okafor for a 1st rounder?
__________________________________________________ ______

Hey, if management is going to start taking my posts and implementing them, shouldn't I get paid? I'll take the Veterans Minimum, thank you very much! And while you're at it, give me a call and I'll talk with you about some trades which will help us. But, I'll need another raise for that, MJ.

[ohara831]

A much needed victory today over Indiana. Have to credit J-Rich and Wallace for the win. They came up big for us. Okafor was OK with with 10 pts and 10 reb, and Ray was underwhelming with 7pts and 6 assts. Wven when we win, it seems to be more in spite of them then because of them.

[dnbman]

A much needed victory today over Indiana. Have to credit J-Rich and Wallace for the win. They came up big for us. Okafor was OK with with 10 pts and 10 reb, and Ray was underwhelming with 7pts and 6 assts. Wven when we win, it seems to be more in spite of them then because of them.


Actually, Felton was pretty key to the game. He was playing with a lot of fire. He didn't take many shots and spent some time in the lockerroom after taking a shot to the leg (or a cramp. Something happened to his leg.) Wallace and Richardson were unquestionably the co-mvps, but Felton's low numbers are deceptive.

[Mustachio]

A much needed victory today over Indiana. Have to credit J-Rich and Wallace for the win. They came up big for us. Okafor was OK with with 10 pts and 10 reb, and Ray was underwhelming with 7pts and 6 assts. Wven when we win, it seems to be more in spite of them then because of them.


Actually, Felton was pretty key to the game. He was playing with a lot of fire. He didn't take many shots and spent some time in the lockerroom after taking a shot to the leg (or a cramp. Something happened to his leg.) Wallace and Richardson were unquestionably the co-mvps, but Felton's low numbers are deceptive.


i completely agree... i think a lot of people on this board and fans in general put a little too much emphasis on numbers. Feltons numbers were deceptive, he played better than he has in about 5 games tonight. still hate him as a shooting guard. Crash... was the only reason we won that game. Crash was not about to let us lose that game.