Lets Face the Facts... Sam Vincent A POLL

[MattD]

I think we've all come to the consensus, the Bobcats have hit another roadblock. MJ has done decent with the player personnel and gotten Vincent what he wants. Now if you were the Bobcats owner/in MJ's shoes what would you do?

I am sort of torn, but it'll be interesting to see what comes up, if anyone has another good option, I'll put it in (if I can?)

[dav7z]

Right now i just don't know what the team should do. Hell i don't even know what i think about the problem . One thing for sure it's a problem.
Just me but i might right off this season all ready . Continue to let Vincent coach but put a leish around his neck. Have Bernie and M.J tell him when to go piss much less tell him what rotations to have and what players to play and try to inprove for next year . Playing the rookies and Hollins in the rotation. Signing young points to ten day contracts starting soon. Let Felton make or break on his own . Mcinnis has no fucture as a Bobcat either way so limit has playing time.Make a desision on OK50 is he part of the core or is he expendable.
I guess keep him the rest of the year but basicly have him as just a figure head leting MJ and BERNIE call the shots.

[CMc$]

Right now i just don't know what the team should do. Hell i don't even know what i think about the problem . One thing for sure it's a problem.
Just me but i might right off this season all ready . Continue to let Vincent coach but put a leish around his neck. Have Bernie and M.J tell him when to go piss much less tell him what rotations to have and what players to play and try to inprove for next year . Playing the rookies and Hollins in the rotation. Signing young points to ten day contracts starting soon. Let Felton make or break on his own . Mcinnis has no fucture as a Bobcat either way so limit has playing time.Make a desision on OK50 is he part of the core or is he expendable.
I guess keep him the rest of the year but basicly have him as just a figure head leting MJ and BERNIE call the shots.


I don't see why everyone cries so much regarding Felton. He was playing quite well for most of this season. Good, solid production. Not Chris Paul/Nash production, but still pretty good. What ever is off with Okafor is something is personal/with the staff. He looks lost out there and I can't help but feel that it has something to do with V.

[ohara831]

Guys, I just put this rant on the Game thread, and will summarize again here. I cannot just throw all this on Sam. I'm sorry, but he is not the one out there playing NO Defense. He is not missing the layup and making stupid TO's and taking stupid shots. It's the Players. I blame the Players and Mgmnt for putting together a team they thought could play but who just basically suck! We all need to stop blaming only Sam and realize that the bigger problem is the players and managements failure to recognize talent vs no talent. Bad evaluators they are indeed!

There are two keepers on the team. Crash and J-Rich are great and busting their asses every night now. They are productive. I think Nazr and Carroll are good bench guys, but I do not like hearing Carroll start to complain and play the blame game. That is mentally weak of him to do so.

I would do everything possible to find suckers to trade Okafor and Felton to and get 1st round draft picks. There are always Coaches with egos who believe that they can somehow bring out talent in someone when it really isn't there. Okafor and Felton are avg at best, and not that on most nights. We need to simply retool this machine, and build around Crash and J-Rich and plan for a descent bench with Nazr, Carroll, and a healthy Ammo. There will never be a healthy May, so we can stop dreaming about that day. Try hard to get Jamison as a FA PF for us, and if we have some luck in the Draft with people picking who can see talent when it is there, then we can rebuild and be ready to kick butt within 2 years. Otherwise, they keep the same old garbage here and it starts to rot and stink!!

[ohara831]

CMc$ : Felton is in his 3rd yr and still the entire mgmnt recognizes he is not capable of running the show alone. That is why they have McInnis playing so much. I think the front office are bad evaluators of talent, but they are right about Ray's shortcomings. He will never be a great PG for us. At best, he is a good combo Guard who can be a very solid back up PG and a good SG; but cannot do either job great.

[MattD]

Guys, I just put this rant on the Game thread, and will summarize again here. I cannot just throw all this on Sam. I'm sorry, but he is not the one out there playing NO Defense. He is not missing the layup and making stupid TO's and taking stupid shots. It's the Players. I blame the Players and Mgmnt for putting together a team they thought could play but who just basically suck! We all need to stop blaming only Sam and realize that the bigger problem is the players and managements failure to recognize talent vs no talent. Bad evaluators they are indeed!

There are two keepers on the team. Crash and J-Rich are great and busting their asses every night now. They are productive. I think Nazr and Carroll are good bench guys, but I do not like hearing Carroll start to complain and play the blame game. That is mentally weak of him to do so.

I would do everything possible to find suckers to trade Okafor and Felton to and get 1st round draft picks. There are always Coaches with egos who believe that they can somehow bring out talent in someone when it really isn't there. Okafor and Felton are avg at best, and not that on most nights. We need to simply retool this machine, and build around Crash and J-Rich and plan for a descent bench with Nazr, Carroll, and a healthy Ammo. There will never be a healthy May, so we can stop dreaming about that day. Try hard to get Jamison as a FA PF for us, and if we have some luck in the Draft with people picking who can see talent when it is there, then we can rebuild and be ready to kick butt within 2 years. Otherwise, they keep the same old garbage here and it starts to rot and stink!!




When you dont have any desire to win for the man who is supposed to be motivating and uniting you, you play like crap, simple moral... Vincent screwed this whole teams motivation and attitude up by running the piss out of them the day before games and then saying their tired, not prepared... If I was a player I would be thinking how this guy has no idea what hes doing. One game dudley will play 20 minutes, the next night he wont see any playing time. Vincent wants to run an 8 man rotation, the next he is playing everyone. This team has no chance to settle into a rhythm and get the right attitude with someone as important as the coach being an idiot.

A players talent level is not going to change, but the way that they use it can

from someone who has played basketball competitively for a while, I know that when I hated my coach, I didnt try for him and I didnt care when we didnt win a game... When I played for a coach who I respected, even though we werent friends, and knew that he commanded my respect, I played at a higher level and cared... Look at emeka, he clearly, clearly doesnt care

[MattD]

by the way I voted:

Management should talk to him, let him know hes not getting the job done, and he needs to step up and take responsibility

then if he isnt up to par yet, bye bye

[davcbow]

Dick Harter would be better than what we got right now....Sorry MJ but I dont think V has got it....:g:

[ohara831]

by the way I voted:

Management should talk to him, let him know hes not getting the job done, and he needs to step up and take responsibility

then if he isnt up to par yet, bye bye
__________________________________________________ _

I voted that way too.

Matt, playing competitively means alot. But remember, these guys are Pros. They are getting paid millions of dollars to play their best. This is not playing for your HS or College, or playing for Pride. This is their JOB. They do not have the luxury of using the excuse that they are playing for someone who simply cannot motivate them.

[Cantgetright]

Regarding Felton... PG is the hardest position in the NBA to learn... Raymond still has less the 82 games as a starting PG so if he hasn't progressed it's because he hasn't had enough time in the position. Is he struggling at getting the team into an offense??? Yes but, that's becuase he hasn't been asked to do that enough on a consistent basis.


The coach is the problem.... This is the same team we had last year except with more talent and the coach has put in a system that has very little movement and with a struggling young pg the system will not work. The system is predicated on having a pg break down his defender and cause help defense and rotations from that but, we aren't able to do that so that leaves us with a stagnant offense.

We need an offense system that relies less on the pg to create and more on players setting picks and working to get open.

We don't rebound well and have Nazr on the bench. He started 5 games and was avg. 14 pts and 12 reb.

During the 5 games when Emeka was starting beside Nazr he was avg'ing 12 pts 9 rebs and 1 blk- in the 4 games since the new lineup Emeka is avg'ing 7 pts 10 rebs and 3 blks. So Emeka is not playing any better with the new improved PG play of McInnis and letting Raymond "Attack".

This team looks lost and that falls squarely on the shoulders of Sam Vincent.

Sam has to make up his mind. If you go small you can't have a slow PG running the show because that negates the reason you go small and that is to get up and down the court. If you are going to slow it down and run a half court game then you need some size in the paint.

We are hopeless with Sam at the helm.

Not only do we suck but, were not even fun to watch and we are not developing any of our young players.

I would rather lose with a lineup of one of the following 3 then continueto lose with the lineup that he is throwing out there. The current lineup is neither effective in winning games or player development. If we are not doing either of those things then we are just wasting the season.


Please make the changes and have one of these as the lineup going forward before I go fucking bananas.......


PG-Felton
SG-Hammer
SF- J-Rich
PF- Crash
C- Okafor
or
PG-Felton
SG- JRich
SF Wallace
PF Dudley
C-Emeka
or
PG-Felton
SG- JRich
SF Wallace
PF Okafor
c-Nazr

[Muttley]

by the way I voted:

Management should talk to him, let him know hes not getting the job done, and he needs to step up and take responsibility

then if he isnt up to par yet, bye bye


yup!

[Alex]

Fire him now.

[Wallace15]

I voted for "Give him to the All-Star break". If he doesn't put together a solid rotation and get all of our players motivated to play at their highest level then kick him to the curb and find someone better(which really wouldn't be that hard to do).

[bizzlecatz]

Ohara, Felts is a good combo guard, because that's the position he has played the last three years, if management were not going to develop him into a strating PG with playing time, then they should have brought someone in to help with his development, and the same goes for Mek and not someone name J. Blair or that coke head.

Someone like P. Ewing who helps with - Howard,or J. Stockton who helped with D. Williams.

just my 2 cents.

[Fromage]

if this crap continues to tyeh all-star break, anyone who doesn't think he should be fired needs to have their head examined. check the other thread with the list of upgrades/changes we made, and PLEASE explain to me how we're playnig as bad as we are. we made modest upgrades in so many respects (enough to have given us all reason to expect a fight for theplayoffs) and we've gone backwards. its as simple as that. clearly, our biggest mistake has been the coaching pick. i'd bet my life that Rick Adelman would have us close to (if not at) .500.

[ohara831]

How about a compromise. Let's trade Okafor and Felton for draft picks. Then, we fire Sam near the end of the season. Then, we get a new coach who can have 3-4 1st round picks to construct a new team around J-Rich and Crash.

See, I get rid of the dead weight holding us down and get my draft picks, and you get your new Coach! Everyone's happy!

[davcbow]

I dont think that would hurt because we arent winning any how this season, but Id send along McInnis for free (you know; here take him).... :biggrin:

[ziggy]

How about a compromise. Let's trade Okafor and Felton for draft picks. Then, we fire Sam near the end of the season. Then, we get a new coach who can have 3-4 1st round picks to construct a new team around J-Rich and Crash.

See, I get rid of the dead weight holding us down and get my draft picks, and you get your new Coach! Everyone's happy!

I wouldn't trade Okafor now. He was always a solid and very consistent player until Coach V arrived in town. I'm sure that with a coaching change he would return to his old form.

[davcbow]

Yeah too many rookies would be a bad thing.

Fire V!!!!!!

[ohara831]

Ziggy: Are you really willing to take the risk that Okafor gets back to his old ways? And, is that good enough for you? he is a good defender, and still is so. but his offense is limited to within 5 ft of the rim. He will never get better than that. Look at Amare, Duncan and others. They are good from 12 ft out. Howard isn't, but he's a beast and doesn't need to go outside 5 ft. Hell, he dunks 90% of the time.

Davcbow: You add 3 young stud Rookies to Crash and J-Rich, and they will take 1 yr to get it together; I admit that. But, they will be fun to watch that yr. And, after a yr of experience, then I think our team will be one to contend with for yrs to come.

Think of this one fact my Bobcat friends. We have to deal with Howard in our Division for 10 - 15 yrs. The kid is only 22. Okafor cannot play defense against him one lick. Nazr wan do better, but not too much better. We need a great young Center who has offensive skill and defensive skills. That is either DeAndre Jordan or John Riek. One of those 2 have to be taken by us in the draft. But we need so much more than that. This is why I want to trade Okafor and Ray now for those additional picks. Just one more Lottery pick can be the difference maker for us. A great Center and a great young PG. Holy Cow! And no, we do not have that already in Okafor and Ray. We have 2 who are merely avg, and who will never be great. We know that, but others who do not watch the games constantly do not. Someone will take us up on the deal and give us the picks we need. 2 young studs and then 1-2 more 1st round picks in this yrs draft will be monsterous. This is an exceptionally deep draft and talent is all throughout the 1st round. Just spend some time studying the upcaoming draft and what people are saying in mock drafts. This may be a fluke yr, but if it is, this is the yr to make some moves.

[dnbman]

There are no sure things with rookies, even lottery picks. While Felton may be replaceable, Okafor would be much harder to replace.

Of the two, I'd trade Felton for a lottery pick before Okafor.

[ohara831]

There are no sure things with rookies, even lottery picks. While Felton may be replaceable, Okafor would be much harder to replace.

Of the two, I'd trade Felton for a lottery pick before Okafor.
________________________________________________

Would you not agree that in the games that we started Nazr, before the Coach went small, Nazr was clearly outplaying and out producing Okafor?

[twebb]

About Vincent, Its his first year in the NBA head coaching and I think give him this year and next to work the kinks out and develop his style of play. Let him figure out that what works in International ball may not work here in the NBA. While he has not done stellar this season, Im pretty sure Bernie didnt win when he started because I remember him having some pretty bad records in his career. Vincent is making changes to the starting lineup now and people complain, but when he wasnt and starting Primo the same people were wanting him to change the lineup. He is trying to find something that works and I think we should support him for this year and if he is still here then we hope that he figures it out for next year.

[davcbow]

Davcbow: You add 3 young stud Rookies to Crash and J-Rich, and they will take 1 yr to get it together; I admit that. But, they will be fun to watch that yr. And, after a yr of experience, then I think our team will be one to contend with for yrs to come.


Do you honestly think our management could pick 3 young studs that wont get hurt and be out a season (Morrison) or a season and a half (May) or have to play out of their true positions (Felts, Mek, Wallace). Also do you think we would even play them (Duds, Davidson) (Twiggy too)..... and would they fill spots with more quality FA's (McInnis, Harrington) and make trades for a quality C (Nazr) that does great and gets pulled from starting as a reward.....Reads like a coaching problem to me.....What Id do in order to keep the ticket buyers coming back is get a quality coach, trade maybe Felts and only maybe if a good trade that improves our team comes available, Id sit back at that point and see what happens with the new coach. If Mek then still has a problem then maybe trade time for him. I like Mek and I hope its only a coaching problem which is what I think is the problem..... :g:

[davcbow]

Tonights game should have convinced more...

[Fromage]

Tonights game should have convinced more...


i went from "wait till all-star break" to "fire now" tonight.
that game said it all. anyone who saw it would agree.
what a freak'n joke our team has become.

[ohara831]

Davcbow: You add 3 young stud Rookies to Crash and J-Rich, and they will take 1 yr to get it together; I admit that. But, they will be fun to watch that yr. And, after a yr of experience, then I think our team will be one to contend with for yrs to come.


Do you honestly think our management could pick 3 young studs that wont get hurt and be out a season (Morrison) or a season and a half (May) or have to play out of their true positions (Felts, Mek, Wallace). Also do you think we would even play them (Duds, Davidson) (Twiggy too)..... and would they fill spots with more quality FA's (McInnis, Harrington) and make trades for a quality C (Nazr) that does great and gets pulled from starting as a reward.....Reads like a coaching problem to me.....What Id do in order to keep the ticket buyers coming back is get a quality coach, trade maybe Felts and only maybe if a good trade that improves our team comes available, Id sit back at that point and see what happens with the new coach. If Mek then still has a problem then maybe trade time for him. I like Mek and I hope its only a coaching problem which is what I think is the problem..... :g:
__________________________________________________ __

If they will bring in someone with basketball knowledge to help MJ with his analysis of the talent, then yes, they can get 3 great players out of this 2008 draft. It is very very deep this yr in talent. Injuries? That is out of my hands and anyone else's hands. That's fate.

[Mustachio]

dude ohara. your dealing with best case scenario. not all trades and rookies work out. its the nature of the beast.

meanwhile your selling a double double machine down the river because you think a rookie could be better.

I personally think Ray is a good point guard. I also believe Okafor is a a good center. not the best. but you cant have all stars at every position either. this aint fantasy basketball.

your saying build around Jrich and Gerald Wallace with young talent. well.. in case you havent been watching the past three years. thats what theyve tried. not as easy as it looks this GM business.

[MattD]

your saying build around Jrich and Gerald Wallace with young talent. well.. in case you havent been watching the past three years. thats what theyve tried. not as easy as it looks this GM business.


wow I dont mean to sound like an ass, but I have been saying this since November... build around Jrich he is a championship piece, as could be Gerald

[babyj42]

i think that we should fire him period... nothing else... just let him go... i care about nothing else but getting him out of here as this is by FAR the most talent we have ever had

[davcbow]

I dont see how anyone could ever think that starting McInnis is a good thing and helps the team except maybe V. We arent going to make the playoffs so why not put everybody in their true positions and let them play and learn, to me that would be the smart thing to do right now and develope for next season. We need to develope the young talent we already have, that would only increase their trade value if need be. We need a experienced coach that can think quick on the fly and make the correct decesions during the game, that can plan good line ups and changes, utilize the players strong points and not force them to do things they arent used to doing such as playing in different positions. You wouldnt want your QB to hike the ball and you wouldnt want your center to be throwing passes, so to speak. Put the guys in their proper places and let them play using their talents..... :g:

[MattD]

If I could change my vote, it would now be, "fire him NOW!". Weve heard about MJ's sitdowns, hes dealing with it like a real idiot. Fire him!

[ohara831]

Hey. We are 1 game out of Playoff hunt right now. Onloy 2 out of the 7th spot. We cannot afford to make that change now. It took this long for the team to get use to Sam. If we change, the team will not get use to a new Coach until the season's end, and we will blow out chance. You have to let him ride it out and see if he can motivate them into the Playoffs.

[MattD]

i guess, but seriously one game out of the 8th spot in the east is a joke. we are still what 18-27? .400. We could be so much better but instead, we will continue being a joke. the sad thing is a think we are going to be stuck with vincent for longer then just the season