Starting Nazr Over Emeka

[ohara831]

I know the Emeka Who thread had some talk on this issue, but I wanted to start fresh after the Celtics game. Since we seem to be doing better now, and Nazr is a big reason why, should we consider starting him at Center and bringing Okafor off the bench for 20-25 minutes and see how that works with samll ball? I mean this only in the context of when Sam starts the game playig "small ball."

Seriously, we may lose a lttle on Defense, but it seems to me that Nazr is clearly more productive with points and rebounds. I think Nazr is closer on Defense to Emeka than Emeka has been to Nazr's offense and rebounds on Most nights (not all). Since the trade, has he not really out performed Okafor in almost every game we played him at least 20+ minutes? I think from that point, it may make sense. However, you know that that act would signal Okafor leaving us b/c he would take the demotion as injuring his Contract value, and rightly so, so I think he would definitely walk with no desire to stay. Is it worth going with Nazr and just trading Okafor so we can control what we get for him? Just a thought.

I dont know the answer to this question yet, and wanted to see what my fellow Bobcat fans think. Would the team stand a better chance of winning and making the Playoffs if we started Nazr over Okafor? IF we did it, would you just let Okafor get pissed and sign with another team and take what we get in any compensation after this season, or would you trade him for a possible Lottery pick in the next few weeks? Very interested in your responses.

[dav7z]

I would love to start both players and send Mcinnis to the beanch. That would solve the problem hear.
I agree with you Nazr is stronger in most areas compared to Emeka. As Nazr was in at end of last nights game. I would trading Emeka if and only if we could land a good p/f and a 1st round pick. Or someone like Gasol, LMA. or say a Frye and a first. I don't know . But if i was to think any deal we would have to get a real good big or just a good big and a first round pick. I would not be shoping Okafor.

[amour217]

I think Nazr should start WITH Emeka and push McInnis where he belongs: the bench. It provides us with our best defensive and rebounding frontcourt possible with Wallace, Okafor, and Nazr...plus it allows Wallace to move to SF where he won't get beat up by bigger, stronger PF's.

Don't get me wrong, G-Force is the man, but a PF? No way. He's going to get beat up over time out there

[MattD]

I agree, I wouldnt mind benching Emeka, but think how demoralizing that would be to him... its not like he appears happy anyways

[Mustachio]

play them together. Mek is far and above a better defender. Dont forget Mek was a big reason we got up in that Celtics game last night. Nazr was definetly key in sealing the deal and not losing the lead down the stretch... But Mek started and made his prescence felt.

I thought Mek did an excellent job on KG last night. defending and rebounding against one of the all time greats.

[ohara831]

Keep in mind that I am only talking about this in the times that the Coach is going "small ball" and starting McInnis, Felton, J-Rich and Crash. It makes all the sense in the world to start both Nazr and Okafor and bench McInnis, but until the Team feels Ray can handle the PG by himself, that aint happening. So, for this Thread, this only applies to when we are starting "small ball". (Last night, Ray was just what I want him to be; great assists and low TO's)

[BIGCatBobcat]

I tend to agree with the guys who say start them both. we all agree McInnis is no NBA PG. Put them both out there see what kind of production we get out of them. At this point I think you'd have to listen to trade offers for Oak, but not shop him. If there is something out there that could make us a better team, as much as i'd hate to see him go, we'd have to listen.

[spectre]

I agree, I wouldnt mind benching Emeka, but think how demoralizing that would be to him... its not like he appears happy anyways


I wouldn't for that reason. No matter what we plan to do it'd hurt us; if a trade that'd massacre his stock...keep him regardless it'd kill what little bit of confidence he has left.

So long as Nazr gets the PT and he doesn't have a problem coming off the bench Mek should still start...even if he ends up with only 15-20 mpg.


but until the Team feels Ray can handle the PG by himself, that aint happening.

The Nets game should give a hint that it's not Felton, it's Hammer. If Hammer can come in and produce Touche's minutes will go down. Last night he struggled, so Vincent went with Touche' more.

[ohara831]

I tend to agree with the guys who say start them both. we all agree McInnis is no NBA PG. Put them both out there see what kind of production we get out of them. At this point I think you'd have to listen to trade offers for Oak, but not shop him. If there is something out there that could make us a better team, as much as i'd hate to see him go, we'd have to listen.
__________________________________________________ _

If they are looking to implode the team, I would take David Lee from the Knicks and give them Okafor. Yep, I think I'd do it.

[Mustachio]

ohara i hear what your saying about the small ball lineup...

but i still would start okafor. he needs the confidence, the PT, and hes still got more upside than Nazr. and if your wanting to trade him, you gotta show him off a little.

I still think that his performance against KG is getting over looked. he defended well against a first ballot hall of famer playing in his prime. hes part of the reason the Celtics offense was off last night. He definetly held his own last night down low. Scoring wise he could use some work, but its not like Nazr is gettin 30 a night or anything.

i still say start em both, sub in Ryan.

[Dunk]

Our big lineup, which we should probably start games with, should have:

C: Nazr
PF: OK
SF: Crash
SG: J-Rich
PG: Felton

Our small lineup could be:
C: OK
PF: Crash
SF: J-Rich
SG: Hammer
PG: Felton

The latter gives us more speed and more shooters on the wing. The former gives us more players in the post. Depends on who we go up against. The key difference is what you ask Gerald Wallace to do because, IMO, he's got a very different role as a 4 than 3, especially on D.

With most teams in the NBA, I think it makes sense to keep Nazr and OK together in the lineup. It's a little more conventional and let's the rest of our players match up better. Especially Crash and J-Rich who are our key guys and where we have a distinct advantage against a number of teams.

[davcbow]

Our big lineup, which we should probably start games with, should have:

C: Nazr
PF: OK
SF: Crash
SG: J-Rich
PG: Felton

Our small lineup could be:
C: OK
PF: Crash
SF: J-Rich
SG: Hammer
PG: Felton

The latter gives us more speed and more shooters on the wing. The former gives us more players in the post. Depends on who we go up against. The key difference is what you ask Gerald Wallace to do because, IMO, he's got a very different role as a 4 than 3, especially on D.

With most teams in the NBA, I think it makes sense to keep Nazr and OK together in the lineup. It's a little more conventional and let's the rest of our players match up better. Especially Crash and J-Rich who are our key guys and where we have a distinct advantage against a number of teams.




V likes to try experiments so I dont see why he wont experiment one game and see how these line ups would work out.... :g:

[spectre]

One of the biggest issues we have with any of those lineups is that the only player listed who has "good" handles is Felton.

Crash and JRich are "adequate" I guess, but against some teams that will be a disadvantage. I agree tho, those are the 2 best lineups we can put on the floor.

[Dead_Real]

I'm on the side with the people saying start them together and just bring Hollins and Davidson off the bench to spell both man.

[ohara831]

I agree with Spectre, Dunk and Davcbow. Now, if the opportunity arose, would you trade Okafor for David Lee, straight up? Keep in mind Lee has a couple more years on his Contract and is under $1 mil this yr. I wonder how he and Nazr would do together?

Mustachio : I do hear what you are saying about Emeka's defense against Boston. I tried getting the game on line last night and it kept buffering every 20 seconds and it became unwatchable. I followed the 2nd half on ESPN.com. I agree that Defense is the very best of Okafor's talents. His rebounding USE to be better, but has slacked off considerably. I am at a complete loss as to why he is not shooting more. I mean, his taking 2-8 shots a game is clearly HIS issue, not the playmakers not giving him the ball. Hell, Nazr doesn't have any trouble getting the ball for shots. Something is going on with Okafor, and it seems almost a willful intent on his part of not shooting in order to piss off mgmnt somehow. It only hurts his arguments for a new Contract, so I cannot imaging why he is acting this way. But over the past month, he just seems to show ZERO interest in being a scoring threat. We need him to score to be our very best. I was expecting this yr for Emeka to avg around 18 pts and 10-12 reb per game, especially after we got J-Rich to help fee things up inside. He has just regressed badly or he is a one man mutiny. Either way, it aint good.

[spectre]

His rebounding USE to be better, but has slacked off considerably.

About that...would some of you that go to the games try and keep an eye on what the guys are doing underneath in terms of blocking out?  Mek's rebounding has been putrid in a lot of games this year (yet guys like Crash & JRich are getting a lot of rebounds) and I'm wondering if Mek is possibly staying home with his man and worrying more about keeping him away?

Probably reaching...but it's hard to see that on TV.

Ohara...I'm just not that big a fan of Lee. There'd probably have to be filler too...and I doubt any of us would like any filler NY would want to put in. If we could get their pick too then that would make it more intriquing.

[Wallace15]

If we play small then there's 2 line-ups I would use.

Felton, Carroll, Richardson, Wallace and Okafor as you've all mentioned. I'd also have a line-up of Felton, Richardson, Dudley, Wallace and Okafor.

In the 2nd line-up you could swap Wallace and Dudley.

Felton, Richardson, Wallace, Okafor, and Mohammad is what I want to see.

[babyj42]

If we play small then there's 2 line-ups I would use.

Felton, Carroll, Richardson, Wallace and Okafor as you've all mentioned. I'd also have a line-up of Felton, Richardson, Dudley, Wallace and Okafor.

In the 2nd line-up you could swap Wallace and Dudley.

Felton, Richardson, Wallace, Okafor, and Mohammad is what I want to see.



i agree 100%... more dudley, carroll, and muhammad and less mcinnis would be great

[Muttley]

His rebounding USE to be better, but has slacked off considerably.

About that...would some of you that go to the games try and keep an eye on what the guys are doing underneath in terms of blocking out? Mek's rebounding has been putrid in a lot of games this year (yet guys like Crash & JRich are getting a lot of rebounds) and I'm wondering if Mek is possibly staying home with his man and worrying more about keeping him away?

Probably reaching...but it's hard to see that on TV.

Ohara...I'm just not that big a fan of Lee. There'd probably have to be filler too...and I doubt any of us would like any filler NY would want to put in. If we could get their pick too then that would make it more intriquing.



I doubt we would be able to get the pick of any team that's looking to "implode the team." I might could take Robinson with Lee, if they'd part with him.

[ohara831]

Muttley: If we could get David Lee and Nate Robinson for Okafor, that would be a steal. Nate is 3x the PG than McInnis. Hell, he starts for the Knicks. He can play with Ray, no doubt. And Lee, he is a very good young player. He is one of the very few the Knicks fans like playing, so it would be very hard to pry him away. That said, I.T. aint so hot of a Coach or GM. But, he was a great player.

[Muttley]

Muttley: If we could get David Lee and Nate Robinson for Okafor, that would be a steal. Nate is 3x the PG than McInnis. Hell, he starts for the Knicks. He can play with Ray, no doubt. And Lee, he is a very good young player. He is one of the very few the Knicks fans like playing, so it would be very hard to pry him away. That said, I.T. aint so hot of a Coach or GM. But, he was a great player.


Totally agreed, OHara. I like Lee, and I really like short basketball players. Upgrade over McInnis? Understatement of the season. As I recall Nate played well against us last time we met. I still think that I'd be hard pressed to part with Mek, but maybe I could do it if they gave us these two. I'm thinking, though, that the Knicks are thinking exactly what we are, and these are two pieces that they would try and keep.

[ziggy]

I tend to agree with the guys who say start them both. we all agree McInnis is no NBA PG. Put them both out there see what kind of production we get out of them. At this point I think you'd have to listen to trade offers for Oak, but not shop him. If there is something out there that could make us a better team, as much as i'd hate to see him go, we'd have to listen.
__________________________________________________ _

If they are looking to implode the team, I would take David Lee from the Knicks and give them Okafor. Yep, I think I'd do it.

Give up Emeka for David Lee???
I think not.
Emeka on his worst day has more impact on the game than David Lee does on his best day.

[Keetch]

Trade Emeka for David Lee? .... hmmm should I think about that? Nope no need to. NO WAY.

Emeka for David Lee and Nate Robinson? .... actually that makes the deal worse ... Nate's too small, doesn't distribute and is a head case. That would REALLY suck.

I like David Lee alot; and we need a PF. But no way do I trade a quality starting Center (which are like RARE in the NBA these days) like Okafor for him.

[dvdbumpus]

The one thing that I don't like about it:

You see the success of J-rich in the SF position. He's averaged nearly 30 pts/game and has produced ever since that happened. Putting him back @ SG he was just good. Wonder if he can keep the same production going?

[spectre]

The one thing that I don't like about it:

You see the success of J-rich in the SF position. He's averaged nearly 30 pts/game and has produced ever since that happened. Putting him back @ SG he was just good. Wonder if he can keep the same production going?


I told Slam just the other day I thought JRich was more a natural 3 instead of a 2...mainly due to his handles and his defense.  I don't think it really hurts his production scoring wise (or playing SF is why he's been scoring lights out)...it's more with adding handles and defense.  I still think Crash & JRich at the 2 & 3 works...Crash just takes the better offensive scorer...which he can't do while playing the 4...and just let Felts handle most of the dribbling.  Crash & JRich can help in a pinch, but as we saw vs. NJ Felts is pretty darn good busting a zone with little support.

IF...I say IF we decide to trade Mek here's a thought: why not look for a pick or a potential player and an expiring?  If we could drop around 8 million in expirings this offseason (including Harrington) we very well might be able to sign Jamison...something we're not going to be able to do in our current situation.

It won't be easy, but I found 2 teams who could be possibilities...

Memphis...Stromile Swift (approx 5 million exp.) and they include either their draft pick or Lowry.

New Jersey...Magloire (approx. 4 million exp.) and they include either their draft pick or Marcus Williams OR Sean Williams.

I'm probably selling Mek's value short too, so we very well could get even more value that won't hit our cap this season like future picks. I also wouldn't be surprised if we could get BOTH Williamses from NJ.

Just a thought.

[ohara831]

Trade Emeka for David Lee? .... hmmm should I think about that? Nope no need to. NO WAY.

Emeka for David Lee and Nate Robinson? .... actually that makes the deal worse ... Nate's too small, doesn't distribute and is a head case. That would REALLY suck.

I like David Lee alot; and we need a PF. But no way do I trade a quality starting Center (which are like RARE in the NBA these days) like Okafor for him.
__________________________________________________ ___

Both Okafor and Lee are listed as starting PFs, not Centers. Here are the numbers:

Okafor is 25 yrs, costs $5.427 mil. 12.7 pts and 10.2 reb
Lee is 24 yrs, costs $990K, 9.9 pts and 7.9 reb
Difference is 1 yr younger, 2.8 pts and 2.3 reb and $4.5 mil

Nate Robinson is 23 yrs old, costs 1.268 mil, 10.7 pts, 2.8 reb and 1.9 asts
McInnis is 33 yrs old, costs $770K, 4.1 pts, 1.7 reb and 4.0 assts
Difference is 10 yrs, $500K, 6.6 pts, 1.1 reb and 2.1 assts

In my opinion, Lee is not the Defender Okafor is, but his offensive skills and rebounding are likely to be better with a more skilled team around him as I think he would have with J-Rich, Crash, Ray and Nazr. Close to a wash, and there is major $ difference. Nate would be a huge huge improvement over McInnis. He costs only $1/2 mil more, but his age, pts and reb are better, but assists down some.

If I can trade McInnis and Okafor for Lee and Robinson, I would say do it. Then, you have a quality back up PG to help Ray, and a quality starting PF with lots of upside. both are very young and the cost is much less. That gives us money for FA next yr as well. I think that this trade would make us more competitive this seasson and improve our chances of getting into the 7th or 8th playoff position.

[amour217]

Trade Emeka for David Lee? .... hmmm should I think about that? Nope no need to. NO WAY.

Emeka for David Lee and Nate Robinson? .... actually that makes the deal worse ... Nate's too small, doesn't distribute and is a head case. That would REALLY suck.

I like David Lee alot; and we need a PF. But no way do I trade a quality starting Center (which are like RARE in the NBA these days) like Okafor for him.
__________________________________________________ ___

Both Okafor and Lee are listed as starting PFs, not Centers. Here are the numbers:

Okafor is 25 yrs, costs $5.427 mil. 12.7 pts and 10.2 reb
Lee is 24 yrs, costs $990K, 9.9 pts and 7.9 reb
Difference is 1 yr younger, 2.8 pts and 2.3 reb and $4.5 mil

Nate Robinson is 23 yrs old, costs 1.268 mil, 10.7 pts, 2.8 reb and 1.9 asts
McInnis is 33 yrs old, costs $770K, 4.1 pts, 1.7 reb and 4.0 assts
Difference is 10 yrs, $500K, 6.6 pts, 1.1 reb and 2.1 assts

In my opinion, Lee is not the Defender Okafor is, but his offensive skills and rebounding are likely to be better with a more skilled team around him as I think he would have with J-Rich, Crash, Ray and Nazr. Close to a wash, and there is major $ difference. Nate would be a huge huge improvement over McInnis. He costs only $1/2 mil more, but his age, pts and reb are better, but assists down some.

If I can trade McInnis and Okafor for Lee and Robinson, I would say do it. Then, you have a quality back up PG to help Ray, and a quality starting PF with lots of upside. both are very young and the cost is much less. That gives us money for FA next yr as well. I think that this trade would make us more competitive this seasson and improve our chances of getting into the 7th or 8th playoff position.


I'm not too big on Nate Robinson, but as a backup I guess he'll be OK. I know Lee isn't the defender Okafor is, but I love his energy. Throwing Lee and Dudley (if Sammy ever plays him) at opposing teams over the course of a game will wear them out, because those two are all over the place

[Mustachio]

Thats a terrible trade.

First of all, no way Nate Robinson agrees to back up duties behind Raymond Felton. and if you think Sam is crazy for playing Ray at the PG position....just way till he sees ball hog Robinson.

Your acting like 3 points and 3 Rebs a game isnt anything to worry about. YOUR DISAPPOINTED IN OKAFORS PLAY NOW... why would you trade him for less production???? To be able to average 3 points and 3 Rebs a game more than another player is substantial.
I dont see why everyones in a rush to unload a double double machine that plays outstanding defense. He held KG !!! in check while he was in the game. It just makes no sense to me. Youll be hard pressed to find an ATTAINABLE player that will cost less and still have the size and defense AND production.


Think about it this way. Okafor is as good defensively as Ben Wallace... but even better on Offense.
Ben Wallace - 4.5 pts/game, 9 Rebs, 1.8 Blocks, 15.5 Mil a year
Okafor - 12.7 pts/game, 10.2 Rebs, 1.82 Blocks, 5.7 Mil a year.

and gonna be resigned for much less than 15.5 Mil a year. if we sign Oak to a deal like 5 years 47 million... we should be so lucky.

[dav7z]

I agree with Mustachio , First Robinson hes a fanasty stud . Starting hes averageing 19.4 ppg. . And like 2.7 assist. But we din't need that much scoring and i think even Felton is a little better at assist.
Lee i think has reached his peak as i think OK50 still has room to grow.
A couple points and a couple boards meas a lot playing that position.

[bizzlecatz]

I don't want to offend anyone with what I really think of this Trade, so I'm just going to agree with Must, and Dav7.

I will say this: trading Mek for David Lee and Nate Robinson would make this franchise laughable for years to come.

[BIGCatBobcat]

is the only reason anyone likes Lee because of the tip in with .4 or whatever in that game last year. Oakafor stays, he needs to step up on the boards, i'm not worried about his offensive production. I think he and Nazr are great on the court at the same time, platooned or whatever they want to do.

[dav7z]

Acording to a artical i just read we should be seeing more of Nazr and OK playing at the same time . Having two bigs in against the Cavs creates better match ups. And lets Wallace guard James instead of J. Rich.

[amour217]

Monster game by Nazr, regardless of fouling out. Emeka? 6 quarters and only 9 boards ???

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/amour217/Okafor1.jpg

[WarioVsMooChicken]

I lol'd both times I saw that pic.