GW's Troubles at PF continues...

[wil]

GW is playing like an all-star! GW is freakin ballin! GW is awesome! GW is a baller stud yada yada yada! GW this GW that!!.. At some point someone should tell him like Jeff n Paul did last night, "he was overmatched down low" "Mo n Peja opened up" etc etc etc.. And if talkin was not enough, D. West showed him by scoring 28pts in 32 mins :-\ :mad:

He has to play SF everytime period. We give up a lot in playing him at the PF everytime and our W-L record suffers. We have to forget about the all-star numbers he can get across the statline at the PF if it doesnt bring us the W's. I'd take a SF GW 15pts, 7 rebs, 2 stl. 1 blk a night and a bobcat victory every night. if he can do better at SF its all good, bottom line we have to beef up inside offensively and defensively. The most frustrating part of all of these is we have the personel to compete, with Ray, JR, GW, Oak n Nazr starting and closing games.. The problem is our coach doesn't know how to use them simultaneously and effectively. :afro:

PS: How thus GW feels if even the most inadequate player in the league (Jeff) is bashing him publicly??? The nerve :biggrin:

[wil]

http://www.charlotte.com/bobcats/story/451645.html

A couple of great games and this picture shows up!!! :mad:

No offence to GW but i hope he continues to play like a star and not start acting like one. :afro:

[spectre]

He has to play SF everytime period. We give up a lot in playing him at the PF everytime and our W-L record suffers.

Where was this thread the last two games?

I think everyone in here wants that lineup...but "everytime and our W-L record suffers" isn't quite accurate.

[ohara831]

http://www.charlotte.com/bobcats/story/451645.html

A couple of great games and this picture shows up!!! :mad:

No offence to GW but i hope he continues to play like a star and not start acting like one. :afro:


__________________________________________________ ____

Yeah, he can start acting like Brady when he brings us 3 NBA titles and will compete for a 4th! Oh, it's all in fun I guess. I hate the Patriots.

[MattD]

Feels funny comming from me... but chill out, seriously. David West is the exception because of his nice midrange shot and his ability to bang down low.

Gerald is NOT outmatched when he plays PF against slower guys because he can beat them to the rack

GW is not outmatched by guys who cannot bang, because he can block them and will contest their outside shots. David West is very very underrated. Let this game slid against one of the best teams in the NBA and then watch him tear Pau a new ass. He is good, but David West is so versatile he's hard for ANYONE to guard

one game... one game

[TheBeagle]

http://www.charlotte.com/bobcats/story/451645.html

A couple of great games and this picture shows up!!! :mad:

No offence to GW but i hope he continues to play like a star and not start acting like one. :afro:


Not sure what the problem with this article is :-\ Loved the pic with him sitting in the stands with the popcorn flying out and the jubilant look on his face. That's some classic stuff :biggrin:

If your problem is that he's a Pats fan, so be it, but nothing he says in the interview makes it seem that he's turning 'prima donna' on us. That was a very good, fun interview, I thought, giving us some insight on the man's personal life: he's a hard worker and a kid at heart....what's not to like there?

[Dunk]

What wrong with being a fan of The Greatest Team Evah?

Besides the fact that he violates the 150 mile radius/nearest team Man Rule. Crash is a bandwagon fan!

:)

[qchoops]

He has to play SF everytime period. We give up a lot in playing him at the PF everytime and our W-L record suffers. We have to forget about the all-star numbers he can get across the statline at the PF if it doesnt bring us the W's.


I disagree...and so do the numbers: http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHA6C.HTM - The numbers from 82games.com have the team doing much better with Gerald at the 4 than the 3. The numbers I run actually make the discrepancy even bigger - I did a query for how the team fared when Gerald is on the court and only one of the big men are as well (from Emeka, Nazr, Primoz, Ryan, Jermareo, and Othella), and the results: The team is good - 106.0 points per 100 possessions, only 102.2 against.

And Gerald is averaging 22.4 points and 7.2 rebounds per 40 minutes under those conditions. Not that he will make the All-Star team, but he is worth a look.

[dav7z]

He has to play SF everytime period. We give up a lot in playing him at the PF everytime and our W-L record suffers. We have to forget about the all-star numbers he can get across the statline at the PF if it doesnt bring us the W's.


I disagree...and so do the numbers: http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHA6C.HTM - The numbers from 82games.com have the team doing much better with Gerald at the 4 than the 3. The numbers I run actually make the discrepancy even bigger - I did a query for how the team fared when Gerald is on the court and only one of the big men are as well (from Emeka, Nazr, Primoz, Ryan, Jermareo, and Othella), and the results: The team is good - 106.0 points per 100 possessions, only 102.2 against.

And Gerald is averaging 22.4 points and 7.2 rebounds per 40 minutes under those conditions. Not that he will make the All-Star team, but he is worth a look.

Great post, REP IT UP, All STAR player of the week in the EAST, enough said

[Keetch]

I'm not a fan of over/under numbers; I think they provide big generalizations and can be misleading of individual performance. If I'm looking at stats, I'll take the ones in the good old box scores.

I think Wallace fills in admirably as a PF and can defend most other PF's in the league. The problem is that he often doesn't. You won't find him consistently in the paint on help defense for the Center. His defense is wide-open court; which makes for some spectacular highlights, when he swoops in for a dramatic block; but also leaves Nazr and Emeka exposed for some pretty bad low-lights; when Crash is nowhere near the basket to guard their backs.

So its team performance that suffers some when Crash is the designated PF. I think at SF he plays pretty much exactly the same game that he does at PF; but then the Center is better protected by the other big (referring to Mohammed or May here; Brezac was worthless). Also, perhaps even more important; when Crash is at PF, JRich is at SF; pitting him against much bigger players. It's really obvious.

There are matchups in every game and good and bad times for playing small ball or for playing your bigs. But generally I think the team is better with Wallace at SF if only for what it does for the other 4 positions on the team.

I'll trust what I see with my eyes over what over/unders show. I'm sure the crackerjack lineup of Brezac/Okafor/Wallace helped pull those numbers down alot. Brezac was painfully bad. But of course; as he's said, Primo was the best defender on the team.

[qchoops]

The numbers for Gerald Wallace at the 4 since the trade for Nazr:
23 points, 7.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 2.3 steals, and 0.9 blocks per 40 minutes.
And the team is scoring 106.1 points per 100 possessions, surrendering 103.4.

Compare that to the overall team numbers since the trade of:
103.3 for, 104.6 against

And lastly, the numbers for the team with Gerald at the 3 since the trade:
99.8 and 113.6
When Gerald is at the 3, 2 out of Emeka, Nazr, Ryan, and Jermareo are on the floor - but mainly it means Emeka and Nazr are out there together...which just isn't working.
When those are on the floor, the team is at 101.7 and 109.2 - not a winning recipe. The two are too similar (and limited) to function well together.

As presently constructed, playing Gerald at the 4, with either Emeka or Nazr at the 5, and Raymond, Jason, and Matt rounding out the group is the way for the Bobcats to go.

[Keetch]

That's a good lineup; definitely with Okafor, but Nazr will do too. Anything without McInnis. But we're still vulnerable defensively in the paint. Mix it up with a real PF and we're good. Maybe next year. Sam clearly won't do it this year.

Its not absolutely about stats. Its a game with motion and character.

[dnbman]

The numbers for Gerald Wallace at the 4 since the trade for Nazr:
23 points, 7.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 2.3 steals, and 0.9 blocks per 40 minutes.
And the team is scoring 106.1 points per 100 possessions, surrendering 103.4.

Compare that to the overall team numbers since the trade of:
103.3 for, 104.6 against

And lastly, the numbers for the team with Gerald at the 3 since the trade:
99.8 and 113.6
When Gerald is at the 3, 2 out of Emeka, Nazr, Ryan, and Jermareo are on the floor - but mainly it means Emeka and Nazr are out there together...which just isn't working.
When those are on the floor, the team is at 101.7 and 109.2 - not a winning recipe. The two are too similar (and limited) to function well together.

As presently constructed, playing Gerald at the 4, with either Emeka or Nazr at the 5, and Raymond, Jason, and Matt rounding out the group is the way for the Bobcats to go.



We've been playing extremely well of late (excluding the NO game), so it's hard to determine if it's individual players stepping up, us playing as a team, GW at PF, or some combination of the above.

For what we have, we probably are better with Wallace at the 4, which allows us some better line-ups with our wings and backcourt. When Wallace plays the 3, we have a more signficant gap talent wise in who has to play the 4. (other than the combination of Nazr and Okafor.)

However, I agree with Keetch. The fact that we're successful of late is in spite of rather than because Wallace is playing the 4. Against better teams, our lack of interior presence will get exploited. Since the ultimate goal is a championship, we need to try to fill that gap, allowing Wallace to revert back playing SF. However, because of our lack of talent at the 4 and Vincent's tendency to not play Mek and Nazr together, Wallace is currently a good option at the 4.

We need to change that to be a serious playoff team, however.

[qchoops]

I was not advocating crash at the 4. I would certainly prefer playing a more traditional lineup. I was attempting to refute the idea that the struggles were due to gerald at the 4. The numbers back this being the way to go...for now. Because emeka and nazr are both more comfortable in the paint and struggling to guard more mobile 4's, there are fewer opportunities to play them together. If the team had a true 4 (like sean may?), then the differences between emeka/nazr and that currently unavailable/non-existent 4 would allow crash to play at his "natural" position.

I will say that playing marion at the pf has worked ok for the suns. (and i am enjoying the back and forth)

[dnbman]

I was not advocating crash at the 4. I would certainly prefer playing a more traditional lineup. I was attempting to refute the idea that the struggles were due to gerald at the 4. The numbers back this being the way to go...for now.


Yeah, but Keetch's point was that the numbers correspond with our team being and playing better in the last couple of weeks. Some of that has been Vincent settling a bit on the rotation. Some of that has been having Nazr available and gelling with his teammates.

The fact that we've been successful (the numbers) aren't necessarily because Wallace is playing 4. We make it easy for teams to exploit the inside, be it their inside players or players driving in off picks. When we've lost, that seems to be a big part of the reason we lose-- softness in the paint-- which is why folks don't like playing Wallace at the four.

I don't know. I think the we've been over-analyzing our whoas since game 3. Basically, we're missing pieces, we're generally young, and we're still learning, from the coach down to the rookies. We're slowly putting things together, and at least making games of it with serious competition. Hopefully we can win 20 more games and at least somewhat salvage the season. Having to win so many road games would get go a long way toward firming up the warrior mentality that's been coming and going all season.

[TheBeagle]

That's a good lineup; definitely with Okafor, but Nazr will do too. Anything without McInnis. But we're still vulnerable defensively in the paint. Mix it up with a real PF and we're good. Maybe next year. Sam clearly won't do it this year.

Its not absolutely about stats. Its a game with motion and character.
Ditto all that!!! Jeff will start every game he is physically able to do so this season. It's a crime against humanity, but that won't stop Vincent. I wonder at times if Jeff thinks the guy is nuts. I'm sure his ego loves that he starts, but damn it all, I know he didn't re-sign here thinking he would be a starter, so he'd be fine with a backup role, which is where he knows he belongs!!!

Also, it's good to see you back, Brett! Like Keetch, I'm not a slave to numbers, but what kind of production would a lineup of Raymond, JRich, Crash, Nazr, and Mek make?

[qchoops]

The numbers for that lineup:
106.2 points per 100 possessions
108.2 against

Rebounding: 27.8% of offensive rebounds
69.2% on defense

Turn the ball over on 14.8% of possessions
Force turnovers on only 13.1% of opponent possessions

You can look at numbers for the 10 most commonly used lineups here: http://www.queencityhoops.com/statSearch.php - The only team that has all of its games entered is the Bobcats; I made it through about a month of doing the whole league, and ran myself into the ground.

Additionally- those numbers look a lot better if you only look at them since 2008 started:
111.0 for, 91.2 against
26.5% offensive, 73.3% defensive - rebounds
10.9% for, 11.1% against - turnovers

Smaller sample size, but that is from 38.9 minutes of playing time.

[wil]

The numbers for Gerald Wallace at the 4 since the trade for Nazr:
23 points, 7.8 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 2.3 steals, and 0.9 blocks per 40 minutes.
And the team is scoring 106.1 points per 100 possessions, surrendering 103.4.

Compare that to the overall team numbers since the trade of:
103.3 for, 104.6 against


That maybe so, but from the 103.4 pts we are surrendering how many pts does the other PF scores, the likes of D. West, J. Howard, etc?.. And how many pts also were scored from plays which we collapse due to our defensive liability with GW being outmatch down low? How many open 3's? Dunks? Uncontested lay-ups, were converted during those plays?............And if so, how many more W's could we have had against our 26 losses??? :g:

GW is a defensive liability at PF, with or without the numbers, WE ALL CAN SEE IT!! :biggrin: AND ALL THE OPPOSING PF'S ARE DOING IT, AT LEAST MOST OF THEM!!! :afro:

If you can't see it, then i suggest you get a measuring tape and measure their heights and a weighing scale to measure their body mass... that would certainly give you the NUMBERS you're looking for.. :burp:

[qchoops]

Well, these aren't my numbers but I think they are what you are asking for. http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHA6C.HTM