How to save the Bobcats

[boobcats]

In the locked thread people were asking what I would do to turn the Bobcats franchise around.

At this point I hate to tell you but there is no miracle cure, but I'll show you what I would do.

There is a simple concept to architecting a team under the salary cap that has completely evaded this board. I will attempt to explain this one more time so please follow along.

There are only three types of teams that consistently succeed in the NBA.

The first type of team is called a "combo". A combo consists of two star players and a supporting cast of role players. Recent Examples: Shaq/Kobe, Jordan/Pippen, Wade/Shaq. Lesser examples would be like Tmac/Yao, Kemp/Payton, Stockton/Malone etc. On these types of teams you can afford to spend nearly all of your cap space on two mega stars because they dominate and surround them with role players like Fisher, Haslem, Harper, Hornacek, etc

The second type of team is a "triplet". A triplet consists of three players that aren't quite megastars maybe but all play around an all star level. Recent examples would include Duncan/Ginobili/Parker, Kidd/Jefferson/Martin, Garnett/Pierce/Allen. Lesser examples would include Garnett/Cassell/Sprewell, Nash/Stoud/Marion, Casell/Robinson/Allen, etc These type of teams are the most difficult to assemble because it requires hoarding three all-star caliber players, role players, and maintaining chemistry.

The third type of team is a "lineup". This is a team where you assemble a starting five where you do not have a weak link. None of the guys have to truly be top notch because in each game you will have an advantage at three positions so you match up well with nearly every team. Recent examples include the Pistons with Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Rasheed/B.Wallace. These teams are the easiest of the three to assemble but difficult to keep together because its difficult to re-sign all of the talent once they emerge as elite teams. These types of teams often only have 1-2 years to win a championship before their window evaporates. Great examples would be the Sacramento Kings and Portland Trailblazers who collapsed in the early 2000s against the Lakers. The biggest obstacle for these teams is that in a big game no one is sure which player should be taking the big shots which leads to meltdowns like both Game 7's vs the Lakers where each team blew enormous leads.

So what does all this mean?

In the NBA you HAVE to land STARS first using your cap money. The NBA has a "soft" cap which means you can go over the cap if you are adding supplemental players. However, you can NOT go over the cap to add star players unless you do so through a trade. Given the flexibility of the rules, you absolutely must land star talent first and then supplement it later.

Many general managers make the mistake of saying "Hey, Jason Richardson is our best player. We only won 31 games last year and if we lose Richardson we will win even fewer. We absolutely must lock Jason Richardson up to a megadeal, we'll sort the rest out later." This may be counterintuitive but this is the absolute worst thing you can do. This is the same rationale that made the Bucks throw a megadeal at Michael Redd. The Bucks retained Redd and they've sucked ever since. You can't win by locking up sub-All star talent to megadeals.


We've locked ourselves into a lot of big contracts with average talent. The first thing you have to do is assess our roster objectively. Given our roster the only chance we have is to try to assemble a starting five.

Gerald Wallace -- A good value. By far the biggest tradeable asset we have. We really have nothing to gain by trading him UNLESS we used him to dump Nazr on someone for an expiring deal. I don't think that would be worth it though. He could definitely be a starting SF on a championship "lineup" team.

Richardson -- Untradeable. Jordan and perhaps Isiah were the only two GM's that would have dealt for his contract. We're stuck with him until 2011 (when he could probably be dealt as an expiring contract). He's a good player that will never quite be worth his All-Star salary, so he's a bad value despite his talent. Either way we're stuck with him for now so no sense discussing him any further. He could probably be a starting wing on a championship "lineup" team but the jury is out after he couldn't quite beat the Jazz last year despite there being not a single player on that team that could guard him.

Okay, so we're set at the wings.

Okafor -- This is a tough one. He absolutely could be the starting PF on a championship "lineup" team. He absolutely could be the starting C on a championship "lineup" team. The problem is we've already overspent on Richardson. Okafor feels we should sign him to a megadeal. Clearly he is not worth a megadeal. Okafor is not capable of being part of a championship "combo" or "triplet" he must be surrounded by a lot of talent. If we sign him to a megadeal we won't be able to add the other pieces.


Nazr -- He's proven he can be the supplemental center on a "triplet" but I'm not convinced he can be a starter on a "lineup" team. I'm pretty sure we can't move him with another three years on his deal. This was a bad acquistion because it limited our flexibility without adding any substantial value to our team.

Matt Carroll -- He'd be a good supporting player for a team that was already loaded. If we can move him we should do it, it doesn't matter if we get anything in return we need the cap space.

Morrison -- Let him walk. He stinks and we don't need him like we need his cap space. Of course Jordan would never admit failure this early so we're stuck with him.

Felton -- Trade him, someone would take him. He isn't good enough to be a PG on a "lineup" team. Maybe package Felton and expiring deals (Harrington, McInnis) for a quality PG (andre miller?).

May -- Keep him. He's a terrific option off the bench if he's healthy and his salary figure is small enough that he's worth the risk.

Dudley --- Perfect fit for a lineup team. He offers quality depth for cheap.


First round picks --- Target someone who is going to be a stud, period. It doesn't matter what position they play, just get someone fucking good this time. Preferrably a big man or a PG.


In all honesty our best move is to be patient. Let Richardson, Nazr, and Carroll's deals work a few years off so they are more palatable in trades. In the meantime do not acquire any new deals. Hoard draft picks and hope we finally draft a stud. We're 0-5 thus far. We're locked into losing right now, there is no sense in making the situation worse by panicking and going after more mediocre talent.

[TheBeagle]

In all honesty our best move is to be patient. Let Richardson, Nazr, and Carroll's deals work a few years off so they are more palatable in trades. In the meantime do not acquire any new deals. Hoard draft picks and hope we finally draft a stud. We're 0-5 thus far. We're locked into losing right now, there is no sense in making the situation worse by panicking and going after more mediocre talent.



Much of what you say makes sense, and I absolutely agree with this closing. I've been saying as much ever since the Nazr trade. We are definitely sellers at this point, and our main conern in finishing out the season, is what will be done with the coaching position. Other than that, unless we're unloading to build for a strong future, we sit.

[wil]

Fire Vincent = Save Bobcats :biggrin:

[dvdbumpus]

I'm going to have to agree, we're sellers at this point. We need to unload now to prep for future bigger and better FA acquisitions.

Adam should be given a shot to prove himself in the next year or two, however.

Keep Crash is priority 1. He's too versatile and is too important on the team to trade unless it's for a Kevin Martin or better stud.

J-rich, agree about the salary being hard to trade. We're probably stuck/set with him. However, you see Shaq's contract and he still got quality back. We should be able to trade if needed, even if it's for small return. Not suggesting, just saying it's possible.

Okafor - Sign him to a mid-range deal or trade him. If none of those, let him walk.

Dudley - Start him already.

Felton - I'd love to find a way to get our hands on Crittenton....

[ohara831]

I see a great deal of wisdom and logic in this thread.

[Dead_Real]

Lakers would probably do Felton for Crittenton straight up and I think Felts would be benefit playing in the west and in Phils triangle O.

[dnbman]

Lakers would probably do Felton for Crittenton straight up and I think Felts would be benefit playing in the west and in Phils triangle O.


Crittenton is now in Memphis and can't be traded for some time. However, that does give Memphis expendable point guards. I don't think any of them are going to be an improvement on Felton though, making a straight swap pretty useless.

I would love to trade some other pieces for one of their guards though. I just can't think of who would interest them that we'd want to trade.

[Dead_Real]

Damn forgot Critt was in the deal for Gasal my bad

[spectre]

Lakers would probably do Felton for Crittenton straight up and I think Felts would be benefit playing in the west and in Phils triangle O.


Crittenton is now in Memphis and can't be traded for some time. However, that does give Memphis expendable point guards. I don't think any of them are going to be an improvement on Felton though, making a straight swap pretty useless.

I would love to trade some other pieces for one of their guards though. I just can't think of who would interest them that we'd want to trade.


Lowry's supposedly the odd man out and I would love to have him. Problem is a LOT of teams would love to have him. Memphis won't get enough to compensate for the Gasol trade but I bet they get something good for him...and more than I'd want to give up.

Most are seeing Crit as a 2 (Griz management has said they see playing him and Conley together a lot) and isn't necessarily what I'd want as my sole PG...not that he's an option now anyway.

No way would I trade either of Crash or JSwish. We're talking 2 guys who together are averaging almost 40 points a game AND are filling in the other stats. Teams would kill to have that duo. I'd trade Mek ONLY if the deal was a no brainer...like a young defensive stud like Blatche PLUS a lottery pick PLUS another need.

Felton & Ammo are still on rookie deals. I'd get out of Ammo's deal only if it's at least "equal" and I'd only move Felton if it's better for us. We have to have a PG on this roster and seriously...McInnis nor the midget are feasible options. Use our pick on one and have a real competition next year. Felton's value will be just as good then as it is now...probably better if we get a real coach.

Hammer's contract is frontloaded, so it's not the "cap killer" the boob is continually insinuating. I would move him to balance the roster...a prime example being the rumored ATL trade where we could possibly get back Childress.

Nazr was a very good acquisition...a legit big who can push a double/double every night if he's given minutes. That's not worth an MLE contract??? Of COURSE it is. He might not be THE starter, but he allows us to flirt with rookies and prospects and not be too hurt by it.

We need a frigging coach. All discussion about the state of the Bobcats has to start with that or it's missing the real point.

[Dunk]

We're not in horrible shape. We've got 2 cornerstones in J-Rich and Crash that can flat out ball. We've got a few guys that make a decent supporting cast. We just need to add that one piece of the puzzle. The problem seems to be that no one else in the organization seems to know that the fuck they're doing.

[Keetch]

Agree with Spectre (again) and Dunk; but I think if we have two cornerstones its Okafor and Crash. Felton and JRich are nice pieces to tho!

[CMc$]

Lakers would probably do Felton for Crittenton straight up and I think Felts would be benefit playing in the west and in Phils triangle O.


Crittenton is now in Memphis and can't be traded for some time. However, that does give Memphis expendable point guards. I don't think any of them are going to be an improvement on Felton though, making a straight swap pretty useless.

I would love to trade some other pieces for one of their guards though. I just can't think of who would interest them that we'd want to trade.




We need a frigging coach. All discussion about the state of the Bobcats has to start with that or it's missing the real point.


It would be great if we could package Mr. Biscuit in a trade deal. Please, Mr. Stern, start a new NBA Rule. The Ham Biscuit Clause.

[Dunk]

You can trade the manager in baseball.

[MattD]

Richardson -- Untradeable. Jordan and perhaps Isiah were the only two GM's that would have dealt for his contract. We're stuck with him until 2011 (when he could probably be dealt as an expiring contract). He's a good player that will never quite be worth his All-Star salary, so he's a bad value despite his talent. Either way we're stuck with him for now so no sense discussing him any further. He could probably be a starting wing on a championship "lineup" team but the jury is out after he couldn't quite beat the Jazz last year despite there being not a single player on that team that could guard him.


I get pissed when I read stuff like this. Lets look at a "real" all star:

Ray Allen salary 16,000,000
PPG 18.5
APG 3
3P% .375
RPG 4.1

Jason Richardson salary: 11,111,111
PPG 20.2
APG 3.1
3P% .416
RPG 5.1

WOW! Untradable and overpaid but getting better numbers then Ray Allen? Wrong. Jrich is a good player, but he doesnt get the attention or the status that players like Ray Allen do. Boston could have brought in Jrich and he would be doing better, be cheaper, and be an all star. But obviously the salary didnt work out, and the deal didnt go down.

STOP Trashing JRich. He is fundamental to our team, and comparatively NOT overpaid.

He should be an all star and he and gerald would be if our team was a winning one. I wouldnt trade those two guys if I could. They are the core.

[spectre]

Richardson -- Untradeable. Jordan and perhaps Isiah were the only two GM's that would have dealt for his contract. We're stuck with him until 2011 (when he could probably be dealt as an expiring contract). He's a good player that will never quite be worth his All-Star salary, so he's a bad value despite his talent. Either way we're stuck with him for now so no sense discussing him any further. He could probably be a starting wing on a championship "lineup" team but the jury is out after he couldn't quite beat the Jazz last year despite there being not a single player on that team that could guard him.


I get pissed when I read stuff like this. Lets look at a "real" all star:

Ray Allen salary 16,000,000
PPG 18.5
APG 3
3P% .375
RPG 4.1

Jason Richardson salary: 11,111,111
PPG 20.2
APG 3.1
3P% .416
RPG 5.1

WOW! Untradable and overpaid but getting better numbers then Ray Allen? Wrong. Jrich is a good player, but he doesnt get the attention or the status that players like Ray Allen do. Boston could have brought in Jrich and he would be doing better, be cheaper, and be an all star. But obviously the salary didnt work out, and the deal didnt go down.

STOP Trashing JRich. He is fundamental to our team, and comparatively NOT overpaid.

He should be an all star and he and gerald would be if our team was a winning one. I wouldn't trade those two guys if I could. They are the core.


Fixed your quote...and VERY well said. :cheers1:

[Muttley]

Richardson -- Untradeable. Jordan and perhaps Isiah were the only two GM's that would have dealt for his contract. We're stuck with him until 2011 (when he could probably be dealt as an expiring contract). He's a good player that will never quite be worth his All-Star salary, so he's a bad value despite his talent. Either way we're stuck with him for now so no sense discussing him any further. He could probably be a starting wing on a championship "lineup" team but the jury is out after he couldn't quite beat the Jazz last year despite there being not a single player on that team that could guard him.


I get pissed when I read stuff like this. Lets look at a "real" all star:

Ray Allen salary 16,000,000
PPG 18.5
APG 3
3P% .375
RPG 4.1

Jason Richardson salary: 11,111,111
PPG 20.2
APG 3.1
3P% .416
RPG 5.1

WOW! Untradable and overpaid but getting better numbers then Ray Allen? Wrong. Jrich is a good player, but he doesnt get the attention or the status that players like Ray Allen do. Boston could have brought in Jrich and he would be doing better, be cheaper, and be an all star. But obviously the salary didnt work out, and the deal didnt go down.

STOP Trashing JRich. He is fundamental to our team, and comparatively NOT overpaid.

He should be an all star and he and gerald would be if our team was a winning one. I wouldn't trade those two guys if I could. They are the core.


Fixed your quote...and VERY well said. :cheers1:


Dude, that was bugging me. I knew what he meant, of course.
+1 for grammar.

[amour217]

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/50949/20080219/mavs_waive_fazekas/


The Dallas Mavericks announced today that they have waived forward Nick Fazekas.

Fazekas (6-11, 235) was selected by Dallas with the 34th overall pick in the 2007 NBA Draft. He saw action in four games with the Mavericks this season averaging 1.0 point in 2.3 minutes. He spent 28 games (24 starts) with the Tulsa 66ers of the NBA D-League and averaged 19.1 points, 9.9 rebounds and 1.7 assists in 30.5 minutes per game. He was selected as a D-League All-Star but did not play in the game.

It's obvious that MC Hammy Ham doesn't like to play young bigs very much, but if the 'Cats don't even sniff around this, they're nuts. Fazekas isn't' a superstar, but he can freakin board, and he'd be a good, athletic big body off the bench for us.

[spectre]

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/50949/20080219/mavs_waive_fazekas/


The Dallas Mavericks announced today that they have waived forward Nick Fazekas.

Fazekas (6-11, 235) was selected by Dallas with the 34th overall pick in the 2007 NBA Draft. He saw action in four games with the Mavericks this season averaging 1.0 point in 2.3 minutes. He spent 28 games (24 starts) with the Tulsa 66ers of the NBA D-League and averaged 19.1 points, 9.9 rebounds and 1.7 assists in 30.5 minutes per game. He was selected as a D-League All-Star but did not play in the game.

It's obvious that MC Hammy Ham doesn't like to play young bigs very much, but if the 'Cats don't even sniff around this, they're nuts. Fazekas isn't' a superstar, but he can freakin board, and he'd be a good, athletic big body off the bench for us.


We don't have a roster spot left...wasted on the midget.

No doubt we could cut Harrington's useless carcass, but I'd like to think we could utilize our only expiring for something a little bigger than this...probably just wishful thinking though.

[MattD]

Fixed your quote...and VERY well said. :cheers1:


whoops haha fixed it. Glad you guys got my point

[MattD]

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/50949/20080219/mavs_waive_fazekas/


The Dallas Mavericks announced today that they have waived forward Nick Fazekas.

Fazekas (6-11, 235) was selected by Dallas with the 34th overall pick in the 2007 NBA Draft. He saw action in four games with the Mavericks this season averaging 1.0 point in 2.3 minutes. He spent 28 games (24 starts) with the Tulsa 66ers of the NBA D-League and averaged 19.1 points, 9.9 rebounds and 1.7 assists in 30.5 minutes per game. He was selected as a D-League All-Star but did not play in the game.

It's obvious that MC Hammy Ham doesn't like to play young bigs very much, but if the 'Cats don't even sniff around this, they're nuts. Fazekas isn't' a superstar, but he can freakin board, and he'd be a good, athletic big body off the bench for us.


We don't have a roster spot left...wasted on the midget.

No doubt we could cut Harrington's useless carcass, but I'd like to think we could utilize our only expiring for something a little bigger than this...probably just wishful thinking though.


Earl will get there, it just isnt going to be immediate. Time to wave Othella. What does he do? Maybe moral support, but we need a roster spot and some changes. Try some new talent from the d-leauge.

[Muttley]

Try some new talent from the d-league.


That's a real nice thought, and something I'd be for, but we really don't use the "talent from the d-league" that we've got on our team already.

[walkerl]

I cannot understand why people cry about Richardson contract. He is putting up virtually the same numbers as Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Micheal Red, and Joe Johnson. but is getting paid less then all of them.

[Dunk]

I don't even want to think about where we'd be this year without Richardson. It would be REALLY ugly.

[Muttley]

I don't even want to think about where we'd be this year without Richardson. It would be REALLY ugly.


Well, we would've had Brandon Wright. Just think of the good that would have brought, instead of JRich.

[MattD]

I don't even want to think about where we'd be this year without Richardson. It would be REALLY ugly.


Well, we would've had Brandon Wright. Just think of the good that would have brought, instead of JRich.


Im hoping that was a joke. Look how effective hes been with Golden State.

[Muttley]

I don't even want to think about where we'd be this year without Richardson. It would be REALLY ugly.


Well, we would've had Brandon Wright. Just think of the good that would have brought, instead of JRich.


Im hoping that was a joke. Look how effective hes been with Golden State.


Oh yeah, you bet your ass that was a joke.

[spectre]

I don't even want to think about where we'd be this year without Richardson. It would be REALLY ugly.


Well, we would've had Brandon Wright. Just think of the good that would have brought, instead of JRich.


Im hoping that was a joke. Look how effective hes been with Golden State.


Oh yeah, you bet your ass that was a joke.


LOL!!!

[BobCatsFanInTx]

There are a lot of little things we can do to build for the future. Maybe coach Vincent has done us a favor by being such a lousy coach. We may be able to get a Star or Super Star in the draft.

With all that said I would release Jeff McInnis so coach Vincent could not be so reliant on a washed up pg. If he played favorites with another lousy performer I would can his sorry ass in a hurry.

We can talk all we want about how average this team team is but with the way Bickerstaff had the team from last year perform in the latter half of the year I know THIS team has the talent to at least be an eighth seed in the playoffs. The Eastern conference is soft enough that the cats have as good a shot as anybody at prime time. I know their are no false illusions that this team is a championship caliber team but the way coach Vincent has managed things we will never really know the full potential of this team. The cats should at the least have a half dozen more wins than they do now imo and that would put the cats a lot more in the playoff picture than they are now. We as fans can't expect anything more than a 7th or 8th seed but we should at least be able to do that. It's not as if the Eastern conference teams have made that many major changes or improvements so we should be doing better than we are. The first 20 games or so I can see the team struggling a bit because of the new coach but by then the cats should have had some kind of direction and idea as to what kind of team they are. Do any of you have any idea as to what type system they are running? I sure don't see what that would be.

Crying about it sure won't change anything but I would have enjoyed seeing this team a bit more competitive at this stage in the season. Would be great if fans at the Bobcats arena would holler fire Vincent. The guy obviously is thick headed and never seems to stay with what works best. That is what really kills me. If the team shows promise in one line up why go away from that said line up? Such a sad near waste of a season. Would be shocked to see any real turn around. :mad:

[davcbow]

V plays the "oops that didnt work lets try this" system.... :g:

[bobcat4life]

Okay deadline is gone. No trades of any sort so here is the plan. Vincent needs to stop playing around and get serious. Get a rotation of about 8 to 10 players. Sure that is alot of players but we are going to be on the west coast alot.
Starters--------Felton, JRich, Wallace, Okafor, and Nazr.

Rotation-------McInnis, Carrol, Dudes, Davidson and Hollins.

Sub in the second team so everybody is use to playing with each other. Build chemistry with each other and then they become a team. Work a few players in with the starters. This team has no sense of a rotation or chemistry. The only chemistry they have on the team is Jrich, Wallace and Felton. These are the only guys a see that play with passion besides Okafor as of late. Nazr is a nice scoring threat and can pass. I play McInnis at back up pg because Earl's size kills him and help on D someone is always open. When the 4th quaters starts everyone is rested go to the guys who are getting it done that night at each position and sub in for weakness, strengths and for breathers.
We have to see what we have so we can clear some of this excess bagage we have in the off season. Maybe even make some deals after the season to free up some cap space. We could have some money after letting harrington, boykins, mcinnins, hollins, and anderson go in the off season. :afro:Trust me
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME. Jamison or Brand or Wilcox for cheap because they all have ACC ties.

[TheBeagle]

We have to see what we have so we can clear some of this excess bagage we have in the off season. Maybe even make some deals after the season to free up some cap space. We could have some money after letting harrington, boykins, mcinnins, hollins, and anderson go in the off season. :afro:Trust me
IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME. Jamison or Brand or Wilcox for cheap because they all have ACC ties.

According to spectre and DNBman (and other bobcatsplanet capologists I'm probably forgetting), unless we move JRich (which I really don't want to do) or Nazr (I'm very open to that, though I like the guy), we won't be able to free up any significant money to make a run at an high caliber player like Antawn or Brand. Since trading those guys likely has a snowball's chance of happening, our only hope is that Antawn just really wants to play in his hometown for less than market value. Like others have said, I expect management to make an honest play for him, but it's definitely going to be a hometown discount if he signs with us.

As far as ACC ties go: please, man, you've learned with the drafting of Felton in May that neither the city of Charlotte, nor Bobcats fans could care less about any ACC player. Yes, when visiting Tarheels are introduced over the PA system for starting lineups, or their first appearance off the bench, I give them a long applause (except Carter, who I just have a problem with for some reason. Just seems like he's a sell-out or something, I don't know. Anyway, though I have a fondness for these guys, it doesn't mean I want them on my NBA team. I want the best available players, the hardest workers, and best citizens. Pac Ten, Big East, Mountain West, I don't care, nor do the potential fans out there. A winning team is what it takes, not conference affiliation.

[boobcats]

It's hard to see how the Bobcats make the leap from here. The Nazr Mohammed trade earlier in the season hurt their cap flexibility, and signing Okafor to a big deal will cap them out. Adam Morrison looks like a bust. The Bobcats seem to be stuck in mediocrity.

-- Chad Ford



Couldn't agree more.

[dnbman]

I don't think we're stuck in mediocrity. We actually still have several directions we can go.

For one, there's the significant hope that our players are underperforming under the current coach. A coaching change could solve a lot of problems.

There's also the fact that most of our players are young, meaning they should still be getting better. Even the most cynical of Felton critics has to admit that he can get much better. Ditto on Okafor, Dudley, Hollins, and Davidson. (Though, I don't put a lot of stock in Hollins, other than as an uncaged beast sent it to disrupt things. Maybe the NBA will let him play with a club.) If our core guys were all 27 years old and in long term contracts, then yes, we'd likely be stuck in mediocrity. However, they have upside and mostly short contracts. So, we can either develop them, trade them, or release them.

In terms of salary, obviously Wallace and Richardson are our core, as Richardson would be hard to trade now and Wallace is too valuable to trade unless an amazing deal came our way. Building a team around two wing players certainly has some disadvantages. However, with a good draft this year (and not necessarily a top three pick) and exchanging our drift wood for quality role players, we could have an excellent team.

Again, we need a solid big and a solid pg. We don't necessarily need all-stars at either position. We just need a solid, legit PF that allows Okafor and Nazr to play the bulk of their minutes at the C spot. The fact that we can't get Brand or Jamison doesn't mean we can't get a great player who makes needed contributions to the team.

Also, we don't have to have Chris Paul or Steve Nash to have a good offense. Felton has shown he can run the team very effectively at times, if not for most of the game. We can pair him with a more traditional young point guard, allowing us to have different looks. If we put in a good offensive system, making use of all five players and not catering to one player's skill set, then we can overcome not having an all-NBA player.

One of the common problems of fans and the NBA is that they all believe they need that magic player to transform the team into a championship.

That's not true. Surely, adding all-star caliber players helps your chances. However, the Pistons showed that a great team with solid talent and a good system can prevail.

Now, given that all-star calibre players are a limited commodity, we're better off counting on a new coach to get the most out of our quite talented players.

Granted, I'm the kind of person that prefers rooting for an idea rather than a man, a system over an ego. So, that does make me biased towards wanting to see our guys play well together and make it happen rather than buying into the NBA strategy for rent-a-star. That's what made me love the Bobcats: they were a bunch of guys that either were young and hungry or played with a chip on their shoulder. I want us to get that back and harness that energy into what I believe can be an incredible team.

But all of this talk about trading everybody or all-stars and tanking for picks turns us into just one more of any other franchise who isn't winning the championship and isn't very compelling to watch or care for.

One team wins each year, and it's difficult for any organization to reach that point. Given that a championship is unlikely, I at least want a team that I believe in and care about on the court, giving me a reason to watch them every season.

[bobcat4life]

Well said Dnbman. My thoughts exactly. :afro:

[ohara831]

Dnbman:

I appreciate your hopefullness and your dedication. But we are sitting with the 6th worse record in the league, and getting worse. For goodness sakes, we are going to get passed by the Knicks and possibly even the Sonics. That cannot be blamed on losing May and Morrison, nor on just a bad Coach. We are stuck in a rut of mediocrity. Long term commitments to certain players is not helping. I can live with the J-Rich Contract, and Crash's Contract is well worth it. Nazr is a good Center for now and$6 mil is the top I can live with for him. But the Carroll Contract was bad, and paying Okafor $13 mil or above will be horrible. Ray is going to want serious money in a couple years, and we will be in the same boat with him as we are now with Okafor. He'll want big money as our PG when he is not worth serious PG money. Just too inconsistent.

I honestly think that trading Okafor and Felton for high picks is the smart money now. Build around J-Rich and Crash. I think Dudley, Davidson and Morrison will be great bench players for us. Nazr can hold down the Center job unless we happen to get lucky and DeAndre Jordan falls to us. But getting a new PG and PF/C from this draft can lead to our being in a great positon in the next couple yrs. Low money for Rookies and 2nd/3rd yr players, and perhaps we can actually make the correct call at Draft time and pick the right players. We just haven't done a good job of that in the past.

Get the Rookies in, and let them run with J-Rich and Crash. Then, we can examine new Contracts when they come due for our young guys. But Okafor and Felton are not long term solutions for us if we want to get out of the rut of mediocity.

I know not everyone agrees with me on this, but I have to state my opinion. Some will criticize me, some will agree with me. But one thing for certain; we all love our Bobcats and want this team to be a Winner. We just have different ideas on how to get there.

Modify: I would reconsider my trading Okafor on one ground. If he agreed to a salary in the neighborhood of what we pay Crash, around $9.5 mil, then I think we would want to hold onto him. But, we have to get rid of the Carroll Contract. That was an unwise offseason move. We should have kept Herrmann instead!

[dnbman]

I think you're grossly underestimating how big of an effect Vincent's coaching is having in our players. Rather than address all the areas that I believe he's screwing up, I'll just focus on Felton and Okafor, since you think we should trade them.

PG and C are the hardest positions in the NBA to fill; that's virtually understood by everyone. There are a ton of pgs and Cs who come in the league and NEVER pan out, much less have a few o.k. years. Felton and Okafor are both players who have demonstrated they can do great things on both sides of the court. However, they played in systems, not abstract, free lancing schemes.

Felton is being put in the position of being one of our primary scorers because using him in the pick and roll is one of the few plays that can consistantly get us points. Some say we have to focus on that play because Felton isn't good enough to run other plays and is a shoot first pg. I don't believe that. I've seen him make too many great passes this year. He also has the uncanny nack of having the hands the ball ends up in when the clock has two seconds left, making him take a lot of shots this season that were complete prayers. Once again, this isn't because he can't make the right pass. Instead, we pass it around the arc, occasionally going inside/out, but rarely making a play that gets us closer to the basket. So, what you're left with is a forced inside shot from five feet or a forced 22 foot shot. That's clearly a lack of a system when you don't have cutters running and guys setting picks. I don't have to site statistics, because this is usually obvious to anyone who watches our offense set up. And, again, the play style doesn't change when anyone else plays pg. If McInnis or Anderson or Boykins came in and we started to see movement that we don't see with Felton on the court, then you could probably make the claim that either Felton doesn't make it happen or his teammates don't trust him enough to work off the ball. However, there's little movement no matter whot he pg is, suggesting there's little vision in the offense and, thus, little in the way of execution.

However, Felton has demonstrated that he can get to the hoop often, can usually hit free throws, can make some great passes, and can keep the defense guessing. I don't think we should trade that away for another rookie pg when Felton could be about to emerge and another rookie pg could take a few years. Remember, Paul and Williams were once in a decade type players that matured very quickly. Before that, you've only got a couple of quality pgs in the several years before then. Why take a known comodity and dismiss it for what could be another project? There's noone in the draft that's a sure thing, outside of possibly Rose. Granted, if we could trade Felton straight up for Rose, we may want to consider doing it. However, get ready for another few seasons of bumps and bruises as Rose learns to run and NBA team.

As for Okafor, offensively, we've seen that he's somewhat limited. However, we always knew that. When we drafted him, we were expecting a slightly more offensive, less defensive version of Ben Wallace. For the most part, he's lived up to that, with his biggest criticism being that he doesn't play with fire enough. His first two seasons in the league who scored more than people thought playing in our offensive vaccuum. Because he scored more points than we thought and then later worked with Olajuwon, people assumed he'd turn into the next Tim Duncan. That's not the case, and likely will never happen. However, he's still one of the better interior defenders in the league and has a good enough offensive game to make him useful. Keep in mind, the NBA is made up of about a half dozen great Cs, a dozen flawed but effective Cs, and then scores of journeymen. At worst, we'd put Okafor in that second category. He could end up being on the bottom end of elite if he plays with another big who can play D and draw some defensive attention. You can't just trade players like that for questionable rookies.

I guess my main point is that draft picks don't mean anything unless the player adapts to the NBA. Felton and Okafor have shown ways in which they're fantastic, even if they have been inconsistent and at times whoaful. We don't want to dump them just to draft worse players.

I think with a good coach and a couple of missing pieces, everything we have will fall into place. We have a great SG, who's capable of winning a few games almost by himself. We've got a terrific two way SF who can dominate games on both ends of the court. We've got a defensive anchor C that can occasionally put up some big offensive numbers. We've got a lightening fast pg that has a knack for hitting big shots. On our bench, we have a usually lights out 3 pt threat, a versatile forward, and a C who can do a little bit of everything, if nothing spectactularly. If we add a starting PF to that group, another solid pg, and a couple of other blue collar type players, we'll be sitting pretty.

I can't stress this enough: we can't blow up what we have based on the play this season. The coaching situation mixed with line-up changes and injuries has been tragic. We need to wait another year to make such decisions, which means we need to sign Okafor to a realistic contract. There will always be teams who are ready to trade for a starting C who can contribute on both ends of the floor. Okafor has shown enough to keep teams interested if he plays mediocre ball for the next season or two. If we really don't think he's going to work here, then we should trade him then, after he's played under a coach that get all of his players on the same page. Until then, we need to be patient. All of our players are still young, with the exception of the ones we don't need and aren't figuring into our future plans anyway.

[amour217]

I think we need to find a coach that is going to stress hard work and fundamentals, much like Bernie, but someone with much better basketball sense and IQ, someone who knows how to win. The best thing Bernie did with the Bobcats was to stress intensity, no matter how outmatched we were...Sam Vincent fails at this, and how do I know?

When the 'Cats took the court last night, the respective layup lines from the two teams were very different. The Kings were in line, making their layups and taking their shots. The 'Cats? They were throwing up goofy, careless layups, some of them looking like they really didn't care. I know it's really nit-picky, but they didn't come out looking like they wanted to stomp the Kings. Sure, they put up a good fight, but it'd be awesome if the Kings came out there, saw the 'Cats and and thought "These guys came out ready to fight"

[MattD]

fire the coach. we lost another game because of him. that in bounds play to ray? retarded.

[Keetch]

Well said Dnbman. Kudos. I agree with you 98% (I STILL like Hollins more than you I think lol).

Fire Sam Vincent.

[ohara831]

I understand your points Dnbman. They make sense and I appreciate them. I just disagree with the value of Felton and Okafor. I think Okafor is an avg big man: He is above avg on Defense and Below Avg on offense. Ray is a talented Combo Guard, but not a true starting PG. Maybe with more time he will get there, but I don't see happening. I fear we will get into the same predicament with him that we find ourselves with Okafor. We offered too much, it was rejected, and now we are going to have to offer it again or more. Best cut bait and get what we can for him. And, if this is done, hopefully it will be to a Western Conf team.

[dnbman]

I think Okafor is an avg big man: He is above avg on Defense and Below Avg on offense. Ray is a talented Combo Guard, but not a true starting PG.


OK. But just ask yourself these questions:

1. I agree that Okafor's offensive game isn't that impressive. But, of all the starting Cs in the NBA, who has a better offensive game than Okafor?

2. In the same respect, what pgs in the league would you rather have start over Felton?

We need to be careful when we're talking about above and below average, because it's very easy to forget the MANY mediocre and downright poor players in the NBA.

[Keetch]

Felton's a Point Guard?? Dnbman; where'd you ever get that idea.....certainly not from his PT with the Bobcats.

In the 1st half against the Wizards tonite, he played one minute at PG. In the 2nd half .. 2 minutes.

[dnbman]

Felton's a Point Guard?? Dnbman; where'd you ever get that idea.....certainly not from his PT with the Bobcats.

In the 1st half against the Wizards tonite, he played one minute at PG. In the 2nd half .. 2 minutes.


Off Topic, somewhat: how did he play tonight?

[Keetch]

Well lessee here...33 minnies, 4-11 shooting, 1 Rebound, 9 assist, 1 steal, 9 points. No TO's no blocks. That's 13 for 33 so not so great statistically. I thought he played with speed and control though. At least 2 very nice assists were blown by Mohammed's softness on the rim.

And my play of the game was Ray lightning fast feeding a streaking Okafor downcourt for a running slam. Very, very nice.

They can do that when given the chance.

edit: only 9 points....when Ray plays SG he really loses his scoring opportunities ... imagine that. His best statistical games are the rare ones he plays PG. go figure.

Very old news....sorry to be so redundant...I promise to never bring it up again....Ray is a combo guard...Ray is a combo guard...Ray is a combo guard...HEY! Ray is a combo guard!

[ohara831]

There has to be some reason to the madness. Bernie did not let Ray run the show as his PG, he let BK do it for 2 seasons. And Vincent would rather put in McInnis to do it also, and management does not step in and stop it. Are they all wrong?

No. They are basketball knowledgable people, and we are rabid fans. We have a pretty good basketball IQ, but I would have to say that since we dont call the plays, we dont know who is messing up at times. We are not at the practices, and dont know that Ray is completely inept at the NBA PG position. Logically, think of it this way. Why in God's name would our Coaches and the management all agree that BK should be the PG the prior two yrs and McInnis the PG this year? Why? Cause Ray cannot do the job himself.

I am sick of Ray and McInnis both startiing, and having J-Rich, Crash and Okafor trying to carry the load. It leaves us vulnerable inside. A few weeks ago, they said that Ray was going to take the reigns as the PG. Really? That lasted all of a couple games. Then, here comes the little guy Mr. Boykins, and McInnis goes to 3rd string. That lasts a couple weeks, and now McInnis starts again. Yes, the madness of it just makes me want to vomit!! It is a waste of a position player to have 2 people to play a semi PG position each. It is our downfall this season. **And if we had May and Morrison healthy, would it change a thing? No! They play another position. They would not be starting even if healthy. It would still be McInnis and Felton becasue we need a PG. And if 2 head Coaches have not seen enough in 3 yrs worth of practices, and neither has mgmnt, then Ray obviously does not have the talent to do the job. Get him out and get rid of McInnis with him. McInnis we can cut at season's end. Ray we can trade as a good Combo Guard and get a good high draft pick in exchange. Get me a PG who can play and then we can have a regular team who can compete. I am tired of my team being the terd floating in the toilet bowl of the NBA. I want it to be the filet mignon that smells like a $30 piece of meat that is savory and juicy and makes my mouth water just thinking of it. I want it to be something that excites me to write things on this Board like "we played great tonight and blasted the Lakers by 20 pts" or "Well, that completes a season sweep of Orlando, Washington, the Celtics and Detroit." I don't like writing about how we get blown out by teams only marginally better than ourselves.

Damn, that felt good. Thanks for letting me rant. Now, I'm going to bed to sleep with my wife. Goodnight.

[TheBeagle]

I just don't think we'll get a good return on trades for Mek and Raymond; that's why I say we keep them. Mek is just too valuable with his rebounding to let go, though anything more than 11M is a little too steep for me. He is a top rebounder in the league, a pretty good defender (though his shot blocking is down this season), and an erratic scorer that still manages to find double figures more often than not.

If this jackleg "Coach" could wake the fuck up and realize there are no damn playoffs this year, bench Jeff, and give Raymond the keys for the rest of the season at PG, then I'd be able to make a judgment about him. Why not do this? What the hell is there to lose at this point?

I'm kind of a hybrid between ohara and dnb on this one. I think we should keep these guys (that is if Mek will sign for 11M or less) add either a very solid big or PG (which should be available if the lotto balls are fair) via the draft, and sign a solid position player or two of whatever we didn't address with our lotto pick. And, of course, FINE BISCUIT!!!!!!!!!

This has become my mantra over the course of the season: We are very close one way or the other to becoming either a solid franchise with a bright future, or a team mired in irrelevancy for 5 or more years; it all hinges on this offseason, THE (no hyperbole, I know you all will agree with me on this one) most important offseason in this franchise's history.

The checklist is fairly simple, but does MJ have the humility and intelligence to do the right things that are needed? Looks like I'll have lots of Bobcats intrigue to mix in with my Astros baseball this summer.......

[ohara831]

Beagle:

You are surely correct in one aspect. This will be a very very important offseason. I say we make moves to corret past errors and start moving forward in a responsible and effective manner with new players to go with J-Rich, Crash, Dudley, Nazr, Jermario and Morrison Others say we hold our pieces (except the expirings who are worth letting go) and we look for a solid Lottery pick to go with a FA acquisition.

I see the arguments for my position, and I see the arguments for the position others take, especially Dnbman. They are valid strong arguments. Certainly, if Ray were to become a Top 10 PG, I'd love to keep him. However, like I said above, 3 years of Coaches and management cannot be altogether wrong if they all seem to agree that Ray is not capable of handling the starting PG job. There can be absolutely no other reason on God's green earth why they would have started BK for 2 years at that job and now McInnis this season if they thought Ray could do the job. It would be more than stupidity on their part, it would be madness. There may be some stupidness happening, but they cannot all be completely mad. And Okafor, I cannot see paying him more than Crash - I'm sorry. Who is more important to the team? Crash. J-Rich came with the high Contract, and we cannot change that, but it is high. Carroll, we made a blunder. We should have kept Herrmann. I miss seeing Fabio in the games.

I have no idea how management will proceed this offseason. I am clueless to what might be going through their heads. It may be what I think is best, it may be what Dnbman argues for, or it may be something in the middle. Maybe keeping either Okafor or Ray, but trading one of them with Carroll for a quality Lottery pick. Honestly, whatever they do, I can say one thing for sure. I think there will be a few on this Board who like it, and a few who hate it, and a few who think it was only OK but can live with it and will pass judgement only after next Season begins. I'll say this much. When the Draft comes around and we see where we are, who is coming out and who is not, and who we are talking about trading (if anyone), these Boards will start lighting up with commentary! That will be entertaining!

[spectre]

It amazes me that you continue to use the fall back position of "well if 2 NBA coaches decided to play Knight and McInnis at the PG position over Felton then he MUST be a combo guard and just can't play the PG spot".

You're using 2 of the WORST coaches in the freaking NBA as justification! Management bought out Knight...did that look like management was signing off on Felton being a 2?

Listen to Vincent's pregame remarks before the SAC game...he says he thinks the only way we can win is by playing Crash at the 4. Since he's set in that what other 1/2 combo can he use? Hammer in his 3 month long slump?

Vincent (you know...one of those NBA coaches that MUST be right because both he and Bernie do/did it!) says he plays Felton at the 2 because he needs him to be aggressive as a scorer. In fact he's said it repeatedly...is he lying and trying not to hurt Felton's feelings?

DNB I thought his game last night was much more so-so vs. the SAC game, mainly IMO because of WAS big guys; they played well. It'd help if the referees would call the fouls on his drives though.

[dnbman]

And Okafor, I cannot see paying him more than Crash - I'm sorry. Who is more important to the team? Crash.

I agree. The problem is their value relative to their position-- simple economics. Quality bigs are in immense demand. While wing players with Wallace's specific set of skills are few and far between, quality wing players at his position are abundant. Thus, the demand for wing players isn't as high as quality bigs. Therefore, even if Wallace is more valuable, he may not draw the contract that Okafor can.

Bigs with skills are more valuable than wings with skills. That's not an opinion; that's what the market demonstrates.

If we don't resign Okafor, we're going to put ourselves in another position where we're searching for a quality big. And if that big outperforms what Okafor has done, you can bet we're going to have to pay him big huge dollars. But, based on the number of quality big men, I don't believe we're going to get one that replaces Okafor unless we get incredibly lucky in the draft or somehow convince a Brand or someone of that caliber to play for us. The odds favor us simply resigning Okafor for the contract that the market dictates, which actually favors us this year, as most teams are fairly limited in their extra funds.

[ohara831]

Dnbman:

Goodpoint on the Contracts issue. But I think a Rookie Jordan or Lopez might be far more valuable than a $13 mil Okafor. Just my thought.

Spectre:

I'm sorry, but your are flat our wrong. Bernie Bickerstaff may not be a Phil Jackson, but he is not one of the worst Coaches, not by a mile. Lots of experience, and he can motivate his guys to play to their best. And yes, I am speaking about both Coaches deciding to relegate Ray to somethng other than a PG, as well as management. You have argued before that management does not likely have much say in the lineups and such. I disagree with you. You cannot tell me that a competitor like MJ will not be having at least some conversation and recommendations to Vincent. You know he will watch practices from up high when he can. There is a lot more to it. You don't pour in tens of millions of your hard earned dollars and just let someone wreck it. Be logical, you know MJ has some input. If he is going to be the one to hire and fire Vincent, dont you think that Vincent would take MJ's recommendations? Of course he will. There is no other logical explanation other than both Coaches and management all agree on Ray's limitations. To argue otherwise just makes no sense.

Finally, regarding the decision to play Crash at the 4. You can start Ray at the 1, J-Rich at the 2, Dudley at the 3, Crash at the 4 and Okafor at the 5. That would work fine if Ray was capable of handling the 1. McInnis flat our sucks, but his decision making skills are better than Ray's, and that is why Ray has not been able to take the reins as the starting PG.

[spectre]

Ah, so because Felton isn't capable of playing the PG slot Dudley doesn't get ANY burn? If Crash hadn't gotten hurt during the SAC game Duds wouldn't have played.

Duds has been in Vincent's doghouse and has only gotten PT when he has no choice.


I'm sorry, but your are flat our wrong. Bernie Bickerstaff may not be a Phil Jackson, but he is not one of the worst Coaches, not by a mile.

Got anything to back that up other than the fact that he's been around for a while? According to Steve Smith Bernie only had THREE plays that he ran. Do you consider that a good coach? Does a good coach substitute players by the clock vs. game situations? Does a good coach put in 5 bench players to go against 3 or 4 starters on the other team?

Bernie SUCKED as a coach. The only thing he had going for him was that he could motivate the players. He made so many blunders Vincent actually looks semi competent compared to him. Do you not remember the Knicks OT game where we're up by 1 with 0.1 seconds left, the ONLY way they win is by a tip in and he puts players defending along the perimeter?

That's a good coach???

Management:

Do you think management liked the fact that they went out and got Nazr...paid retail and gave up 2 of our 3 expirings...for him to average 24 minutes a game? Do you think they could care less that Vincent hasn't utilized Hammer at all after they signed him to a retail deal? Why hasn't Jordan met with the players like he did earlier in the season? Does he not care that this team has given up on him?

Where's the "optimistic" letter like Jordan sent to season ticket holders last year?

Vincent has won 19 games, has more talent then our previous season yet is destined to have a worse record. Do you honestly believe that management is supporting that?

I've seen you calling for Vincent to be fired...yet you're willing to say that in this one instance...because BERNIE BICKERSTAFF did it too...he's right???

Ever think he's getting pointers from Bernie?

[spectre]

Some of you might be familiar with the old CSN board where a lot of us posted from the beginning.  As it's now defunct there is no history to pull from, and the RealGM boards didn't get the traffic back then that it does today.  There are a couple of threads over there relating to Bernie however...I'll share some tidbits here:

After the November 2006 Sonics' game...


Bad:

Bernie makes no sense to me. Why does he start Voskul again? He does starts him then puts May in, and May does about 20 times better, why not just start Sean?

When the Sonics got up big, what did Bernie do? He took out Morrison and May and put in Hermann and Carrol. It was almost like he gave up on the team early. I don't understand his rotations.


- our offense is truely pathetic. i'm not just talking about the missed layups and missed open jumpers. i'm talking about the whole thing... plays, spacing, cuts, picks, motion (or should i say, complete lack of...). its quite painful to watch on tv and 10 times worse when you can watch it all in person from a birds eye view in the rafters, where you see the entire court. i have no idea what our offensive philosophy is. no freaking clue.


so far it appears we have two plays for morrison to score. play one, the pg dribbles to the top of the 3pt line and then passes to morrison who is also standing at the 3pt line about 10 feet away. play two, morrison runs across the bottom of the baseline where he gets one awful screen at one side of the lane and another awful screen at the other side of the lane, neither of which is good enough to shake a defender. after running back and forth a couple of time, morrison ends up with the ball... guess where....behind the 3pt line. i guess in two weeks of training camp and one week of regular season thats all that bernie has been able to come up with. you should have seem the variety of plays seattle uses to get allen and lewis open. night and day.

Does anyone else remember our stellar coaching staff yelling "shoot, shoot!!!" every time Morrison got the ball on offense? Bernie tried to make him into being a spot up shooter like Matt Carroll...when that's NEVER been his game.

But it's the "great" Bernie Bickerstaff...his way must be right!


what is our offensive style?
what kind of plays do we run, if ever?
are you happy with our offensive sets?
what do we need do we need to do (from a play calling standpoint) to improve our offense?

From a generic "Vent" thread:


Bernie is (que Bill Walton here) "HORRIBLE"!!!  I am so tired of his idiotic rotations, player moves or non-moves, getting Okafor to near all-star caliber playing at Center then screwing him up over the last 2 games, NOT playing and developing Felton at PG...etc., etc.


I don't even know where to begin.

This guy is absolutely clueless.

Pulling Felton for Knight after he was such a big part in their comeback against the Hawks?

Giving Adam Morrison so much freedom to just shoot away?

His lineups/substitutions never made sense and Bernie had no clue on what "give it to the hot hand" means.

Coincidentally, some of Vincent's "issues" as well.

[davcbow]

What is it then? Is it our players quality dictate that the coaching plays the rotations that are played or is it that the coaches we've had to this point stink and just don't have a clue? I believe most of the problems are within management, its what the ownership is wanting or they would have sent "Ham" walking by now. I think they want to win games so bad that they are going with experience instead of youth. Having said that "this desire to win" is costing our young talent to be left out on the bench never developing them to their true potential. If they don't start developing these young players we are going to be stuck in the rutt of never getting over that hump into becoming a great team..... :g:

[Keetch]

I have no idea what management is doing....beats the hell outa me.

But I agree with Spectre. Bickerstaff is still around and has influence. Many of us were so hopeful that BB's replacement would correct the Felton mess; but all Vincent has done is follow Bernie's lead. How terribly disappointing this season has become because of that. And the team is worse for it. We will not win as many games this year as last. The evidence is in the results. The Bobcats game strategists are idiots. I can come to no other conclusion. :-\

They have mishandled all of the following players this season:

OKAFOR tuned out the coaches a while ago; probably working himself up to get out of Dodge.
FELTON playing hard, god-bless-im; but out of position and ineffective; his speed compromised by McInnis' slow dribble up the court
WALLACE getting beat up underneath
HOLLINS showed promise and growth during the preseason and early games while contributing to our early success; then inexplicably dropped to irrelevance; now a total absurdity
DAVIDSON wasted on the bench watching Harrington and McInnis
DUDLEY wasted on the bench watching Derek Anderson and Jeff McInnis
CARROLL given a nice contract then apparently hung out to dry. He's no longer really relevant either as the current McInnis/Boykins offense pretty much ignores him.

What is MJ's take on this. I honestly don't know; but its worrisome that he hasn't taken any action yet. Maybe he's busy with other things. Maybe this is the same kind of apathy that missed bringing in a PF last summer.

There is no longer any humor in this. No Ham Biscuit. When you're starting Center concludes he's better off elsewhere; you're best player is taken out with an elbow and one of your 2 best shooters (Carroll) is standing around with his palms open; it's become pretty sad.

[ohara831]

What is it then? Is it our players quality dictate that the coaching plays the rotations that are played or is it that the coaches we've had to this point stink and just don't have a clue? I believe most of the problems are within management, its what the ownership is wanting or they would have sent "Ham" walking by now. I think they want to win games so bad that they are going with experience instead of youth. Having said that "this desire to win" is costing our young talent to be left out on the bench never developing them to their true potential. If they don't start developing these young players we are going to be stuck in the rutt of never getting over that hump into becoming a great team..... :g:
_________________________________________________

That is what I am saying. Management is OK with what is being called by the bench as they want to go with experience. This may be bad coaching, but management is backing up the bad coaching.

As for the plays Bernie called seeming simplistic, did you ever stop to think for one second that our players may not be smart enough with basketball IQ to learn more? We haven't done a very good job of drafting, and it is showing. We jsut don't have very good players. We don't have a very good Coach. Our management is not very bright.

Solution: fire the Coach. Hire a professional who is a qualified evaluator of NBA caliber talent for the upcoming Draft. Hire an experienced NBA Coach with a proven track records. Start anew while building around the real talent on this team.

[bizzlecatz]

Ohara, are you referring to Mek and Felts not being smart, two NCAA champs. You can do better than this I'm sure :)

The one on the team with the low bbiq is the Coach period

[spectre]

Ohara, are you referring to Mek and Felts not being smart, two NCAA champs. You can do better than this I'm sure :)

The one on the team with the low bbiq is the Coach period


To expand on that the players we drafted actually came from well regulated systems and indeed, thrived in them.  I guarantee you Williams and Calhoun execute more than 3 plays on offense.

Funny how we are the only team to get the "dumb" ones...

[ohara831]

The college game is far different than the NBA game. Many great college players suck at the Pro level. They just can't grasp the game.

examples: Phil Ford, Danny Ferry. Both came from great schools, were champions, but did not have a grasp of the NBA game nor the physical tools.

[bizzlecatz]

The college game is far different than the NBA game. Many great college players suck at the Pro level. They just can't grasp the game.

examples: Phil Ford, Danny Ferry. Both came from great schools, were champions, but did not have a grasp of the NBA game nor the physical tools.


WOW! Phil Ford could
not grasp the NBA game, but yet he sits on our coaching staff.

no wonder we suck. Vincent and the entire coaching staff is clueless.

[Keetch]

I was there in Kemper Arena watching Phil Ford when he played for the Kansas City Kings alongside Otis Birdsong and Scott Wedman.

He was an excellant NBA PG.

just saying.....

[ohara831]

Ford, Ferry Laettner, all great in college, but could not hack it in the Pros. Randolph Childress at Wake, and so many other great ACC players. They just did nto have the skill nor mental makeup to play the NBA. It was too fast, too big and they could not hang with it.
All I'm saying is that just because someone was great in college, it does not translate to the NBA.

[spectre]

As for the plays Bernie called seeming simplistic, did you ever stop to think for one second that our players may not be smart enough with basketball IQ to learn more? We haven't done a very good job of drafting, and it is showing. We jsut don't have very good players. We don't have a very good Coach. Our management is not very bright.

But you weren't talking about being "great", you were talking about being smart enough to grasp more than 3 offensive plays. Your contention was that our players were just not very bright and that was the reason (or possible reason) for why Bernie had such a simplistic offensive plan.

The fact that they were able to grasp the different offensive sets in college goes against that theory.

Skill set vs. BBIQ (or learning more than a 2 page playbook) are two totally different things. If the former required the latter Corey Maggette would be working in a car wash somewhere. I do agree that many college players can't adjust to the NBA, but that has no relevance on the position that our players are "dumb".

[BobCatsFanInTx]

I don't think we're stuck in mediocrity. We actually still have several directions we can go.

For one, there's the significant hope that our players are under performing under the current coach. A coaching change could solve a lot of problems.

There's also the fact that most of our players are young, meaning they should still be getting better. Even the most cynical of Felton critics has to admit that he can get much better. Ditto on Okafor, Dudley, Hollins, and Davidson. (Though, I don't put a lot of stock in Hollins, other than as an uncaged beast sent it to disrupt things. Maybe the NBA will let him play with a club.) If our core guys were all 27 years old and in long term contracts, then yes, we'd likely be stuck in mediocrity. However, they have upside and mostly short contracts. So, we can either develop them, trade them, or release them.

In terms of salary, obviously Wallace and Richardson are our core, as Richardson would be hard to trade now and Wallace is too valuable to trade unless an amazing deal came our way. Building a team around two wing players certainly has some disadvantages. However, with a good draft this year (and not necessarily a top three pick) and exchanging our drift wood for quality role players, we could have an excellent team.

Again, we need a solid big and a solid pg. We don't necessarily need all-stars at either position. We just need a solid, legit PF that allows Okafor and Nazr to play the bulk of their minutes at the C spot. The fact that we can't get Brand or Jamison doesn't mean we can't get a great player who makes needed contributions to the team.

Also, we don't have to have Chris Paul or Steve Nash to have a good offense. Felton has shown he can run the team very effectively at times, if not for most of the game. We can pair him with a more traditional young point guard, allowing us to have different looks. If we put in a good offensive system, making use of all five players and not catering to one player's skill set, then we can overcome not having an all-NBA player.

One of the common problems of fans and the NBA is that they all believe they need that magic player to transform the team into a championship.

That's not true. Surely, adding all-star caliber players helps your chances. However, the Pistons showed that a great team with solid talent and a good system can prevail.

Now, given that all-star caliber players are a limited commodity, we're better off counting on a new coach to get the most out of our quite talented players.

Granted, I'm the kind of person that prefers rooting for an idea rather than a man, a system over an ego. So, that does make me biased towards wanting to see our guys play well together and make it happen rather than buying into the NBA strategy for rent-a-star. That's what made me love the Bobcats: they were a bunch of guys that either were young and hungry or played with a chip on their shoulder. I want us to get that back and harness that energy into what I believe can be an incredible team.

But all of this talk about trading everybody or all-stars and tanking for picks turns us into just one more of any other franchise who isn't winning the championship and isn't very compelling to watch or care for.

One team wins each year, and it's difficult for any organization to reach that point. Given that a championship is unlikely, I at least want a team that I believe in and care about on the court, giving me a reason to watch them every season.
Excellent Post DnbMan. As I said in my previous post, the Bobcats are much better than their record indicates. After watching a fair share of Bobcats games this season, it just seems this team has no identity or real system in place. Sam Vincent has had the better share of these players long enough that he should have imposed on the team a real style and system of play that is consistent. Like you, I don't see the problem being our players as much as it is the coach. A good coach recognizes his and the teams strengths and weaknesses as the season moves along but this guy is either the most arrogant SOB on the planet or has absolutely no basketball IQ. Whatever it is that compels this man, at seasons end MJ and the rest of team management need to do some serious reevaluation and see if the coach truly got the most out of the players on this team.

That is all I have to add. Once again DnbMan great post!!

[ohara831]

OK. Keep our mediocre talent. When we are in the same boat next year, look in the mirror for the reason why. Failing to see the drawbacks of this team will only lead one to keep the same avg talent and not improve. That is called being in a rut.

As for pairing Ray with another PG, that just puts us right back in the same boat again. it puts J-Rich at the 3 and Crash at the 4. We cannot pair anyone up with Ray to account for his shortcomings as a PG. it costs us having Crash at the 3 and a true PF at the 4.

[spectre]

OK. Keep our mediocre talent. When we are in the same boat next year, look in the mirror for the reason why. Failing to see the drawbacks of this team will only lead one to keep the same avg talent and not improve. That is called being in a rut.

As for pairing Ray with another PG, that just puts us right back in the same boat again. it puts J-Rich at the 3 and Crash at the 4. We cannot pair anyone up with Ray to account for his shortcomings as a PG. it costs us having Crash at the 3 and a true PF at the 4.


:shrug:

Your opinion...nothing really that backs it up. Even The Great Vincent hasn't went so far as to blame Felton for Crash having to play the 4 (yet).

Felton is still on his rookie deal and we will always be able to get value out of whatever Mek gets signed for assuming he stays healthy. It'd be nice to see what a coach who can garner the team's respect and formulate an actual game plan can do with these guys.

Why is it that a college coach can take guys where almost none of them are NBA worthy...at most one or two...run a system and get positive results (remembering that they really have no "core"; guys move in and out every 2-3 years), yet a NBA coach can't do it with the best of the bunch? What am I missing here?

[ohara831]

Because at the NBA level, the talent level is much higher, as you know. I understand your arguments, I just disagree with you on the talent (or lack thereof) on this team. We will have to see what the team does as far as any changes, and that means a new Coach as well (hopefully), and then we will see which of our positions was more accurate. Just fun dialogue between Bobcat fans on what we should do.

[dnbman]

OK. Keep our mediocre talent. When we are in the same boat next year, look in the mirror for the reason why. Failing to see the drawbacks of this team will only lead one to keep the same avg talent and not improve. That is called being in a rut.

In science, you have to isolate variables to see what the real issue is. My point is that one huger variable is the coach, which everyone seems to universally agree. I just think we should change that variable before we blow up a team that has promising talent.


As for pairing Ray with another PG, that just puts us right back in the same boat again.

Sorry, Ohara. I should have been more specific. I meant pair Felton with another traditional pg so that either could run the point and give us a different look, not to play together. I like Felton as a pg, not as a sg. However, we could use a more traditional pg to spell him so that we don't bog down when he's off the court.