The Jerryd Bayless Thread

[MattD]

Ok if we dont get #1, I think we take Bayless where ever we can. I am watching right now and he is really impressive. Ive been off and on for him for a while, im on, probably for good. Hes like Monta but better, maybe combined with gilbert. I love it.


edit: as I watch more, he turns it over a lot but hes only 19. OJ Mayo is a scoring machine.

[Slam]

I wasn't that impressed with Mayo last night. I think that Nick Young looked better at this same stage last year.

Bayless sure does palm the ball a lot!!

Sick dunk though!

[ohara831]

My only concern with Bayless is that he is essentially like Ray. A Combo guard who can shoot well, and play an OK PG but not a really Good PG. I don't think he upgrades us much over Ray, if at all.

[Slam]

He has more poise and plays under control better than Felts does.

He's also a much better shooter.

Not the type of PG I like though - unless I have a LBJ, Roy, JJ, Kobe or Iggy on my team.

[MattD]

would you like gilbert arenas on the bobcats... I would, and he sure is reminding me of him

[Slam]

No, I wouldn't like Gilbert on the Bobcats.

He'd take wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many shots away from Swish, Crash and EO50.

I like Gil though. Just not for us. Gil would be good on a team with weaker wings and an offensive big man.

Think Toronto, Orlando, Houston.

[TheBeagle]

He has more poise and plays under control better than Felts does.

??? Since we only have college to go by, how can you say this kid has more poise than Raymond? Raymond was the orchestrator behind the 2005 NCAA championship team. He drilled a key 3 pointer and FTs late in the game and also got the game-changing steal against Deron Williams. There's no larger stage on the college level than the NCAA championship Monday, and Raymond was brilliant under this pressure.

This guy could turn out to be a better pro, but as long as he is in college, he isn't in the same conversation as Raymond in terms of poise and control!

[Slam]

The term "control" and "Felton" are rarely mentioned together in the same sentence unless "out of" is included.

And if Felton was so "brilliant under that pressure", why is he under achieving now?

[TheBeagle]

The term "control" and "Felton" are rarely mentioned together in the same sentence unless "out of" is included.

And if Felton was so "brilliant under that pressure", why is he under achieving now?
Hmmmm. I agree with your first statement. Here are some examples of those 3 words/phrase being in the same sentence. I can think of quite a few more, but these are my favorites:

1. "Felton", and the "control" he has over this Carolina championship team is "out of" this world

2. Anyone that thinks Bayless, at this point in his career, has more "control" than "Felton" as a point guard is "out of" their minds.

As for your question: I argue he isn't underachieving. He has played out of position his entire pro career, which is not quite 3 years old yet, and furthermore, I don't think the brilliance under pressure he exhibited in college has anything to do with his supposed underachieving in the NBA. As a pro, he has yet to be in any game as pressurepacked as the NCAA championship, and it'll probably take at least a Game 7 of a playoff series to even come within sniffing distance of that pressure.

My argument is don't put some kid who is the PG of a mediocre-at-best college team in the same discussion as a guy who has led a college team to a national championship. To say this guy has more poise and is more under control than Felton is just a terrible assumption to make at this point. Let's see this guy win some games, or be put in a high-pressure situation before putting him ahead of Felton.

[Slam]

I guess it's a pity that Felton can't play the rest of his career at UNC then because that's is where he seemed to play his best?

If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be talking about guys like Rose, Bayless and Augutin now.

Would we?

[ohara831]

Rose, Bayless or Augustin would be a step up from Ray, from a purely PG perspective. But Ray can score well. He is an excellent Combo Guard and would be great to have play the Combo when needed. But he is good enough at PG that if we had the choice b/t Rose or Beasely, I'd take Beasley in a heartbeat as the difference between what we have at #4 and Beasley is much greater than what we want at the PG and have in Ray.

[TheBeagle]

I guess it's a pity that Felton can't play the rest of his career at UNC then because that's is where he seemed to play his best?

If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be talking about guys like Rose, Bayless and Augutin now.

Would we?

To put an end to this "brick wall" conversation that we're having, I'll concede to you and genuflect in your genius and obviously-unerring foresight. In total humility to your superior argumentative skills, I have only this to say:

You are basing your opinions about a college PG on how he has performed in college.
This college PG has not completed a full season yet, and controls a mediocre team.
You are stating that he is superior in terms of poise and control to a PG who excelled in college and has basically started every game of his nearly 3 year career.
I have given irrefutable evidence that Raymond possesses poise and control at the highest level in college.
Therefore it's illogical to indicate that a the college PG is superior to Raymond in terms of poise in control, when Raymond has excelled in the NCAAs, whereas the college PG hasn't even played in an NCAA tournament game, much less an NBA game.

The only gripe I had with what you initially said was that this Bayless character "has more poise and plays under control better than Felts," which, given the argument I've put forth in the above, makes no sense. Will Bayless be a better PG in the NBA than Raymond? I don't have a clue. Maybe. Probably. I just know that, at this stage of his career, I haven't seen any evidence of his poise and/or control being superior to Raymond.

[spectre]

College is waaaaaay different than the pros. A lot of guys can show poise and skills at that level and struggle mightily in the pros. I don't see any of those guys as a certified "can't miss". Felton has proven he can suceed in the NBA. All he needs is an actual coach who won't jerk him around in the lineup for more than a month...let him learn the role we drafted him for.

As for why we're looking at PGs...we only have one on the roster. For depth reasons alone we need another point. But that's fans AND the fact that this draft looks PG heavy. We have no idea what management's thinking.

[ohara831]

College is waaaaaay different than the pros. A lot of guys can show poise and skills at that level and struggle mightily in the pros. I don't see any of those guys as a certified "can't miss". Felton has proven he can suceed in the NBA. All he needs is an actual coach who won't jerk him around in the lineup for more than a month...let him learn the role we drafted him for.

As for why we're looking at PGs...we only have one on the roster. For depth reasons alone we need another point. But that's fans AND the fact that this draft looks PG heavy. We have no idea what management's thinking.
__________________________________________________ _

That last sentence reflects my thoughts on mgmnt for a long time now!

[Slam]

Or, it would appear that guys can do very well in college and then struggle in the pro's.

Case in point, Raymond Felton.

I'm not sure why TheBeagle turned this thread into yet another "Felton Vs the World" thread when it was meant to be about Jarryd Bayless?

I would have thought that would be best kept for the main board rather than trying to make this one spiral out of control?

[spectre]

Or, it would appear that guys can do very well in college and then struggle in the pro's.

Case in point, Raymond Felton.


I think there's plenty of "case in points"...which is why I'd be very leary of predicting that any college player would be better than a pro player without a doubt.


Marcus Williams (DraftExpress) Many consider Williams to be the best pure point guard in the country because of the poise he shows running UConn’s offense as well as his unselfishness, outstanding court vision and passing ability. He easily tops the point guard prospect rankings in assist to turnover ratio with a 2.42 average, coming in at 8.5 assists per game compared with 3.5 turnovers despite the fact that he was not available for the usually cupcake non-conference schedule that most point guards use to pad their stats.

As an example. Not saying Williams won't ever be great, but until his computer swiping incident wasn't he figured to go lottery? In the last game against us he hit some shots, but his playmaking skills left a lot to be desired from my view.

Just saying. Given PT after Kidd's been dealt might help him out.

BTW, I disagree that Felton "struggles in the pros". He might not be as "pass first" as a lot would like, but he's asked to do a lot on this team while being Mr. Versatile; the current coach stresses for him to score. Nelson got 2 full years of running the point in Orlando...IMO it's shortisighted to pass judgement on the guy when he gets to play his true position a month at the time.

[TheBeagle]

Or, it would appear that guys can do very well in college and then struggle in the pro's.

Case in point, Raymond Felton.

I'm not sure why TheBeagle turned this thread into yet another "Felton Vs the World" thread when it was meant to be about Jarryd Bayless?

I would have thought that would be best kept for the main board rather than trying to make this one spiral out of control?
In all sincerity, I do apologize for my role in this thread spiraling out of control. My sole argument is summed up in my most recent post:




The only gripe I had with what you initially said was that this Bayless character "has more poise and plays under control better than Felts," which, given the argument I've put forth in the above, makes no sense. Will Bayless be a better PG in the NBA than Raymond? I don't have a clue. Maybe. Probably. I just know that, at this stage of his career, I haven't seen any evidence of his poise and/or control being superior to Raymond.


Your opinion, which is obviously not incorrect, just doesn't seem accurate to me based on what Raymond has done as a both a collegiate and NBA player, considering Bayless has a fraction of a fraction of the game experience that Raymond has, even if you only look at his college career.

You're wrong about me making this "yet another Felton vs. The World thread", but you're right, this is definitely a Bayless thread, so.......

I don't get to watch all that much Pac 10 (I actually think it's a highly overrated conference, but I guess that's beside the point), but I have seen Arizona a few times. Bayless was phenomenal against ASU at home when he scored like 94% of their points. He's very quick, has a nice outside touch and finishes strong at the hoop. Maybe because he has iffy teammates, and definitely because he has such a bad coach (Kevin O'Neill couldn't win if you took the All American team into the SoCon; he's just that bad!!), but there seems to be terrible chemsitry with that team.

Nonetheless, if he comes out, he should be a definite lottery pick.

[MattD]

No, I wouldn't like Gilbert on the Bobcats.

He'd take wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many shots away from Swish, Crash and EO50.

I like Gil though. Just not for us. Gil would be good on a team with weaker wings and an offensive big man.

Think Toronto, Orlando, Houston.


I think your assessment of gil here is a bit off, he can be a volume shooter, but I think he would much rather use his blinding quickness to get a layup or dish it to someone who can purely shoot the three. Case and point Larry Hughes. He was able to average 20ppg while larry, antawn were doing it too. He will however take over at the end of games, something Jrich has not been able to do (or given the opportunity).

A defensive pg who could shut down opponents best players would be handy too.

[Slam]

Comparison: Gilbert (scoring) meets Monta (athletic ability)

Best fit: Clipps, Sonics, Knicks

[Slam]

There are VERY strong rumors that Bayless is going back to Zona for his sophmore season.

If he does, he is an idiot IMO.

[Muttley]

Most guys say they'll be back. He could be returning, though. He certainly could do more for Arizona next year, but if the NBA opportunity is there, then you really gotta take it.

Only guy that's so high-profile that I can think of off the top of my head that said they were going back and actually did was Hibbert. I'm sure there are more, but it just doesn't happen as often.

[Slam]

He's looking like a top 5 pick this year. There is no way he's going to improve on his draft stock. The only thing he is doing is risking injury and his NBA chances by going back.

[MattD]

He's looking like a top 5 pick this year. There is no way he's going to improve on his draft stock. The only thing he is doing is risking injury and his NBA chances by going back.


agreed. If he gets that killer mentality to score or assist on every play, he could be very good, but as I continue to collect my draft thoughts, I lean toward DJ A. over Bayless, I know nothing of Bayless' work ethic, so that makes it harder for me to judge him