Important Question for Future

[ohara831]

I was thinking about our future on the Bobcats. Looking at who we have under Contract for next season, excluding Okafor, is about $43 mil. Now, if we sign him to an extension, we have to realize that Ray will be in the same boat a year from now. If we were to sign Okafor to something in the range of $10-13 mil, and them get our 1st rounder and 2nd rounder signed, won't that bring us fairly close to the Luxury Cap? We wont have any significant Contracts expiring the following yr to be able to resign Ray to a significant extension should we want to keep him. that management has taken on some serious Contracts in the past yr should not lead us to believe they will pay Contracts over the Luxury Tax. It wont happen.

If I am correct, then will we not be in a position to HAVE to choose between keeping Ray or keeping Okafor? If we are going to be in that positon, do we look at who is more replaceable, and try to package him on a Draft night trade? What other options will we have? With the Contracts of Nazr and Matt, they are not going to be very tradeable assets. I dont want to give up J-Rich, even if he is a big Contract. We may HAVE to choose between Ray and Okafor.

I am thinking of this because we have played really well over the past 3 games. I am seeing a great deal of promise in Dudley for the future, Carroll is showing us why we signed him long term, Ray is starting to use his PG penetration skills better, and Okafor does at times play like a great #2 pick. J-Rich shows us why we traded for him. I still like Morrison and think he can be a solid bench player of 20-25 minutes per game, and Davidson is a solid bench player as a PF for 10-15 minutes. This team has lots of promise, and next year can be special for us. But I see major decisions having to be made, and I'm curious what my fellow Bobcat fans think of how we approach the decisions.

[dav7z]

I think just signing our own players we have no problem . Even if we add 7 more milion to OKs salery we no where close to Luxery tax , Salery cap yes Luxery tax no. So IF we hit salery cap with OK5O. SALERY CAP NOW ABOUT 56K Luxery tax 68 now [expected to incress the next two years] I like Felton but hes not geting over 12 milion a year. OK will be lucky to get the 13 milion.
Now signing free agents mights present a problem .
Ask Tambs, Slam or Spectra . They understand thease things much better than me.

[spectre]

Putting 12 million in for Mek, I get 57.5 million for 10 players next year...which is right at the salary cap. There's about 10 million difference between that and the luxury tax limit. Lottery pick(s) shouldn't cost us more than 2 million, which leaves us plenty to fill out the roster with.

We won't be playing in FA very much other than one possible MLE deal, but retaining our own shouldn't be an issue.

[bizzlecatz]

I think we should move Nazzy before Mek, Ammo before Hammer, and deal with Felts when the time approaches, because as of today, and after last night, Mek, Felts, and Hammer are our future. :)

[ohara831]

I don't understand the Contracts issues so well, which is why I brought this up. I just know that Ray is likely to be looking at a Contract extension in the realm of 7-9 mil so I was not sure if we could have both he and Okafor extended. It seems that keeping all this in mind, what we get in the Draft is likely our only major additions except for those coming at league minimums. No way we can add any major FA's with our salary situation unless we do not keep one of Ray or Okafor.

[spectre]

Nor could we per league rules. IMO if we went after a bigger FA (over 6 million) Hammer or Nazr would almost have to be dealt (which means it won't happen unless we add our pick in).

In future years it'll get a little harder. JSwish's deal maxes out at 14.4 I think, but on the other hand Crash's is "flat" and Hammer's contract is front loaded. Most teams flirt with the luxury tax though...I doubt seriously if we'll ever be a contender until we are as well.

BTW, I agree Felts will get between 7 and 9. Nelson got 7, so I'd hope we can get him for that.

And that's why I've always said we need to make a commitment to either start Felts or trade him (no combo/bench guy); 7 million is too darn much to be paying a backup, esp. with a streaky shot.

Hammer and Nazr is pushing it as it is.

[dav7z]

No But you can get some nice pieces with the MLE , Im still think Jamison will be a Bobcat next season. With Arens wanting out so bad. And Jamison wanting to come home.

[ohara831]

It will not be possible to sign Okafor to a long term Contract, sign Jamison, and then still have any $ to pay Ray. Not unless we are up in the NY Knicks salary range. Our club would go bankrupt if our payroll was that high.

[dav7z]

Ive said this two years Jamison will play hear cheap just to finish his carer at home. He's even said the last two summers he wants to finish at home. He even practices with Felton and other Bobcats in our facility the last two summers. Jamison needs no more money Wizzards are not even close to a championship, So a MLE offered to him is not out of the question.

[Chef]

i would rather deal mek than pay him big $ long term. he is in a contract year this year and still does not put up big $ numbers. we can't pay him star (or even borderline star $) when we can't count on him. before this year, he was oft injured and he definitely disappears in most games. his offense (not including putbacks) is atrocious. he looks like he is thinking too much during post moves often leading to travels and losing the ball. if we are confident about jamison, we should trade mek for a 1st and a back up at 4, draft at least one pf to develop and sign jamison. then we can sign felton and develop a drafted pg from this year's 1st.

[tamburello]

Jamison will be 32 this summer, so I don't believe he came to the age to sign veteran mins for exceptional reasons (championship contender, hometown team etc.). He can easily sign a MLE with any team for 4 years long in worst case. I don't think he's an option for us, nor would we buy him bargain.

I had written down in another thread. The critical point is the following: even if we decide to sign-and-trade Okafor, until trade date, he'll engage a cap space about 14-15 millions. So without deciding Okafor's fate, we'll have very limited opportunities to upgrade the team (namely, only MLE and bi-annual)

This summer Felton and May are eligible for extensions, you know. I think May's situation is no question, he won't be extended until seeing him healthy on the floor, that means he'll be restricted FA in 2009 summer. Thus he won't be a threat to our cap space. Felton's situation is a little complicated. Maybe you can remember, once Larry Miller said that he'll extend Deron Williams to a maximum contract. Similarly, Chris Paul likely would get maximum. Felton was compared to them when they were drafted. So what is Felton's caliber comparing to these two? We should decide on that. I don't think Felton will be traded.

Similar contract situations of last year are: Jameer Nelson had 35 millions, Devin Harris had 42 millions of extension for 5 year. Is Raymond better them? I think yes. So I predict a 48-50 million extension for him, while Okafor will be settled for 65 million (if he deserves or not is another subject). Yes, beginning with 2009-10 season, we'll probably get into a terrible salary situation. Probably exceed the lux tax limit. But if we'd like to keep this core which we've been working on for almost 4 years, we have to pay.

We're not a rebuilding team or expansion team anymore. You can begin forgetting high paid FA's. We will have no more than MLE to sign 'em.

[dav7z]

Tamb i aeree with you on most of what you saying.
You and Spectra know caps and things well.
I don't agree with you about Jamison. Im local i've even talked to him Belive me he wants to play for Charlotte . Hes worth 10 milion just for the local croud draw. By his self he could fill 500 extra seats . So yes management would be instrested in him . And yes management would jump all over him at a MLE. IT may not happen but it's been wide spread talk the last two years. Even Bonnell has had articals in the news about it .

As far as all this gloom and doom talk about salries please explain thease two things to me and ill let it go.
1st Its 42 or 43 more players in this league paid more than our highest paid player.But yet this team is so straped and in such bad shape salery wize.

http://www.insidehoops.com/nbasalaries.shtml


2nd This year this team has the lowest payrole in the NBA but yet you guys keep saying we in such bad shape salerie wize i just don't understand it . It seems to me the other 29 teams would be in worse shape than us. let me find a link for this two . I just don't understand this please explain the gloom a doom.


http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.basketball.pro/msg/cba39dba8b1df182

[spectre]

We're not in bad financial shape...we just don't have the advantage of being under the cap as we have been in the past. We also have few assets or big contracts that we're willing to give up in order to make a big trade. Being a small market doesn't help either.

It's not that we're in worse shape than the other 29...it's that we're in the SAME shape. At least those not paying luxury money.

Tam, maybe a thread on the CBA and it's impact on caps and such? Not just on the 'Cats (of course put the focus there) but just the stuff most get confused over? You're better at this than me...maybe you start one at your leisure and the rest of us add on/ask questions?

We could just revise the Salary 07/08 thread, but this is slightly different.

[tamburello]

No, I'm not saying we're in a bad situation salarywise, I just say we probably will in 2 years' time. This situation also depends on how the salary cap will change. I expect 57 or 58 million for next season. But Dave, if you're looking for a team with better salary situation, look at Sixers, Grizzlies and Sonics. Sixers will very likely acquire someone like Ben Gordon this summer while keeping Iguodala.

At the moment we have the lowest payroll, but we have 4 heavy contracts (J-Rich, GW, Matt [at the moment], Mohammed). And after the possible extensions of Okafor and Felton, we'd have 6. And it'll be very likely we'll stick to them. What hurts the flexibility is these kind of contracts, not the payroll IMHO. Even the highest payer of the league, Mavs have 5 heavy contracts (Kidd, Nowitzki, Howard, Terry, Dampier). Despite this, they were able to land Kidd. Even if we wanted to acquire Kidd, we couldn't do that since Nets would be never willing to take back Carroll or Mohammed.

Jamison may come here if we offer MLE, and I'd be very happy if this happens, but I believe MLE is the worst case for him. He'd definitely draw interest from contenders and my prediction is that he'll be signed and traded to a contender for 7-8 mil per year. Since Wizards will also try to keep Arenas, Jamison would be on his way out. But not to NC, imo.

spectre, that thread can be created, but only this website would be enough too: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

Immediately after the trade deadline, I have updated the Salary 07-08 thread, we can also discuss it there.

But what we should discuss is the "extension of Okafor" issue. Some of guys here claim we should let him go. I believe Okafor is the most important player of the team, and he should definitely be signed thru 5 more years. He is among those type of players whose values and importances are understood better while they are absent. A defensive center is invaluable in this league.

[ohara831]

I just dont see how we can have Carroll, Nazr, J-Rich, Crash, Okafor and Ray all with relative big Contracts, much less think about adding Jamison to the equation. However much he thinks of playing in NC, if the difference is 2-3 mil/yr between playing for us and playing for someone else, he aint stupid enough to pass up that kind of $.

I'm just not sure that the smartest move is not to consider moving the more expendable between Okafor and Ray IF we can get something like a nice Lottery pick, or perhaps 2 that are just on the cusps of bing in the Lottery. There is talk of the Clippers trading their pick if they got the right player, right from Sterling's mounth. Would you not consider trading into a top 5 pick, getting out of the monetary difficulty with Okafor's or Ray's Contract, and then have 2 Lottery picks? One of them can be used on a Center or PG and there are a few we could grab in the Lottery. Then, we have our own pick, probably a Lottery, which we can add the best available player, which is nice. As another option, what if Phoenix is willing to trade both their pick and Atlanta's for Okafor or Ray. Atlanta's is currently a Lottery, but Phoenix is heading that way, too. Heck, they are 6th in the West and losing ground quickly. Would 2 picks in the range of 10-17 not be a good swap. There are some terrific players, Bigs, PGs, SG's and SFs which you can grab at that level.

I'm not advocating we definitely do this. I'm just saying that for the financial stability, and flexibility in the future, this might be the way to go. I'm just a little fearful of tying myself down to 6-7 long term Contracts because if they are not working out, we are going to be stuck in that bad situation for a few years. If this franchise gets stuck in mediocrity for the next 5 yrs, I dont know that the franchise can remain viable. And I desperately dont want to see that happen.

[dav7z]

I personally would rather sign Okafor to say like a six year 65 milion contract. Is that seven milion a quilifing offer and we have the right to match it like the Cavs thing. I think he has more value than just two mid first round picks. A sign and trade might be a smart move for the right player. Somthing like Arenas and a first for Okafor, . Arenas wants out so somthing like that might be pulled off. But i still don't know if that would be enough. We might even be able to do the same with Felton on a smaller scale a sign and trade .

I still think the smart move would be to resign Ok and use our MLE whitch i think Jamison takes. If Jamison turns it down offer our MLE to another P/F 6milion should pick up a nice P/F in such a tight market.
The Wizzards would probely try to do a sign and trade just to get a return [Nazr]

[Icky Thump]

Real concerned about the contract they sign Okafor too. I know when we brought him in as such a high draft pick that we tried to make him the cornerstone of our franchise but he has hardly lived up to that. I hope we dont try and pay him like he is a franchise player cause he isnt playing up to that. He is a good player but thats about it at this point. I would not even begin to think of paying him big money. If he balks at an ok deal get him out of here.

[ohara831]

Let's say we lose Okafor but gain Bayless and one of either Hibbert/Jordan/Lopez? Is that a bad trade-off? I think it's pretty nice. Or what about Bayless and Hibbert and Love? You' re filling 3 quality positions right there. I think either of those scenarios sound quite nice when you consider the youthful talent at a much smaller price tag which gives us flexibility if changes are needed over the next 3-5 yrs.

[bizzlecatz]

Let's say we sign Mek to a reasonable contract, and still sign one of those platyers :)

I'm just not feeling the youth movement, for more youth that you are purposing.3-5 yrs. form now Mek still won't be in his prime, and will be just as tradeable.

[ALong13]

I think Felton and Okafor will both return, Felton will get $7 million a year, while Okafor gets between $11-13 IMO...

[dvdbumpus]

I think Felton and Okafor will both return, Felton will get $7 million a year, while Okafor gets between $11-13 IMO...


I'd rather give Brand 11-13 mil a year, resign Felton, then draft another big. Just my opinion.

I'd love to resign Okafor but I don't know about the cost.

Another thing of note is with Morrison coming back, as well as possibly May, it will be like gaining 2 more 1st round picks, or at least the quality of a first (morrison) and 2nd (May). We'll have 3 upgrades over this years players with Morrison upgrading over DA, May an upgrade over Othella, and the draft pick/Boykins upgrading over Mcinnis. If nothing else we'll much improve the bench.

[davcbow]

Agreed next season if May and Morrison can play again plus our draft picks or with draft night trades included we should be awesome next season maybe even give Orlando a run for the division title.

[TheBeagle]

I'd rather give Brand 11-13 mil a year, resign Felton, then draft another big. Just my opinion.

I'd love to resign Okafor but I don't know about the cost.

Another thing of note is with Morrison coming back, as well as possibly May, it will be like gaining 2 more 1st round picks, or at least the quality of a first (morrison) and 2nd (May). We'll have 3 upgrades over this years players with Morrison upgrading over DA, May an upgrade over Othella, and the draft pick/Boykins upgrading over Mcinnis. If nothing else we'll much improve the bench.


Agreed next season if May and Morrison can play again plus our draft picks or with draft night trades included we should be awesome next season maybe even give Orlando a run for the division title.
Absolutely agree with all the above. If we can get Brand for 13M, get that deal done!! Mek deserves no more than 11.5M, though I suspect management will still offer him the 13M that was offered before the season. Brand would just make Raymond (who should most definitely be re-signed!!) that much better of a PG; imagine having a post player who has a feel for low post offense and doesn't travel 4 times a game because of pivot foot issues.

The point about May and Morrison is so very true; it is like adding two additional picks, and I have to imagine it only helps our chances to, as dw points out, compete for the division next year!!!! Still say we draft big this year, and look for an MLE PG in FA (is that enough letters for you? :biggrin: )

[dvdbumpus]

Think we should keep Boykins? Or should we make a run after Chris Duhon? I personally would take a shot at both.

Here are some other options:

Tyronn Lue
Carlos Arroyo
Anthony Johnson
Jason Hart


Personally, I'd take Duhon, then Hart, then Lue.

[MattD]

you guys need to chill... we have tons of room. Lets just look. Right now we have roughly 53 mill under contract (including BK buyout).

Next year we lose Hollins, Boykins, Othella, McInnis (already cut but we still pay), Anderson and most importantly, MEK.

That brings our under contract to around 40 Mill. 12.222 jrich, 8 for gerald, 4.8 for matt, 6 for nazr etc. We can option Ammo (which I think we did) so 44.

Ok 44 million, we have to resign mek, add Jamison, and add some glue bench warmers.

Mek goes for 10 mill lets say. (I think that is as high as I would go but if he turns it down I would let him test the market, its not a happy one this summer)

54 Mill. Mid level for Antawn, 3 year approx 20 mill, I would be good with. Now that puts us around 60. Veterans min for anderson, and if we could swing it Boykins again, would set us up with 13 players under contract, and then our draft picks would put us at 15.

rounded out roster that is very solid and doesnt touch the luxury tax level. Probably around 63-65 mill. That would still put us in the bottom third of the nba salary wise.

Pretty solid too. If jamison doesnt go for the exception, could we offer him before Mek and then resign mek with bird rights? Just a question.

[spectre]

Pretty solid too. If jamison doesnt go for the exception, could we offer him before Mek and then resign mek with bird rights? Just a question.

Nope...capholds. It's a multiplier of his last season's salary (or his QO...not sure which; think it's QA for RFAs) and it will count against our cap until his situation is resolved. NBA pretty much forces you to deal with your FAs first.

[dnbman]

Pretty solid too. If jamison doesnt go for the exception, could we offer him before Mek and then resign mek with bird rights? Just a question.

Nope...capholds. It's a multiplier of his last season's salary (or his QO...not sure which; think it's QA for RFAs) and it will count against our cap until his situation is resolved. NBA pretty much forces you to deal with your FAs first.



Although, the hold would be $7-8 million, or something like that.

[tamburello]

Pretty solid too. If jamison doesnt go for the exception, could we offer him before Mek and then resign mek with bird rights? Just a question.

Nope...capholds. It's a multiplier of his last season's salary (or his QO...not sure which; think it's QA for RFAs) and it will count against our cap until his situation is resolved. NBA pretty much forces you to deal with your FAs first.



Although, the hold would be $7-8 million, or something like that.

No. It's about $13-14 million. That's why I'm continually saying that don't be so hopeful about the free agency this summer although it looks like we have huge cap room. We don't, indeed. Please take a look at what the rule book says for Okafor's situation:

Kind of free agent: Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
Previous salary: At least the average salary
Free agent amount: 250% of his previous salary*

* Not to exceed the player's maximum salary, based on years of service. If the difference in salary between the last two seasons of the player's contract exceeded $4 million, then the percentage is based on the average salary in the last two seasons of the contract.

So, what is maximum salary for a 4 year player?
Years in NBA: 4
Defined maximum salary: $9,000,000 or 25% of cap**
2005-06: $12,000,000
2006-07: $12,455,000
2007-08: $13,041,250
**whichever is greater.

Okafor is earning $5,427,306 this season. 250% of it is $13,568,265. It's exceeding the maximum salary, so Okafor will count $13,041,250 against the cap when he'll turn a free agent.

Holybook for a modest NBA fan: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

[MattD]

interesting stuff... while I still think Jamison will pull the trigger on the MLE, we will have to see. Maybe a championship contender will pick him up.

[dnbman]

Pretty solid too. If jamison doesnt go for the exception, could we offer him before Mek and then resign mek with bird rights? Just a question.

Nope...capholds. It's a multiplier of his last season's salary (or his QO...not sure which; think it's QA for RFAs) and it will count against our cap until his situation is resolved. NBA pretty much forces you to deal with your FAs first.



Although, the hold would be $7-8 million, or something like that.

No. It's about $13-14 million. That's why I'm continually saying that don't be so hopeful about the free agency this summer although it looks like we have huge cap room. We don't, indeed. Please take a look at what the rule book says for Okafor's situation:

Kind of free agent: Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract
Previous salary: At least the average salary
Free agent amount: 250% of his previous salary*

* Not to exceed the player's maximum salary, based on years of service. If the difference in salary between the last two seasons of the player's contract exceeded $4 million, then the percentage is based on the average salary in the last two seasons of the contract.

So, what is maximum salary for a 4 year player?
Years in NBA: 4
Defined maximum salary: $9,000,000 or 25% of cap**
2005-06: $12,000,000
2006-07: $12,455,000
2007-08: $13,041,250
**whichever is greater.

Okafor is earning $5,427,306 this season. 250% of it is $13,568,265. It's exceeding the maximum salary, so Okafor will count $13,041,250 against the cap when he'll turn a free agent.

Holybook for a modest NBA fan: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm


Oh, man! I'm very familiar with the site and how the deal works. I just never realized there was that fourth year bar. I just looked at the first one after the rookie contract.

Man... 250%!? that hurts a bit.

[spectre]

Well laid out Tam!