A Will to Win

[Keetch]

I actually woke up this morning thinking about this....yup its that bad.

As a player Michael Jordan had a powerful will to win. I think he retains that as an executive. If you'll pardon the sensitive reference; I think some of that has to do with a gamblers mentality. Through all the games, all the years, while enjoying all the money and lifestyle that goes along with the high NBA, a champion player can put on a game face most every night and play to beat you. Jordan, Bird, Russell, Magic...all had it. Great coaches have it.

They play because they want to win. That is what matters.

I think this explains some arguable attributes of some of the current Bobcats players. In some I see a will to win; in others, not so sure.

Okafor for example may be the opposite of the gambler mentality and probably doesn't even know why he plays in the NBA. If he were asked I'm sure he'd say something in the lines of extending his charity work. That is probably the #1 most honorable reason to do what he does; but it is not a will to win.

Gerald Wallace disturbs me a little on this. Sure he wants to win; but I think he's more into the idea of playing hard and winning than truly needing to beat the competition. I love Gerald, but I think his play on the court is more about him being a good show, than about the game result.

Coach Vincent? Hmmmm....his on-court behavior leads me to believe that he cannot lead great players. I see no will to win. What I see are lame excuses and bizarre game logic. He doesn't know how to win. What I see is a guy trying to get through the game and get off the court.

Of the others...I think the greatest "gamers" we have on the team are....

Matt Carroll, RayRay, JRich, and Jared Dudley.

I'm really liking Super Mario too; but its way too early to tell. I mentioned a while back that I'd start Davidson at PF and MattD called me crazy :), but I really think this kid can be awesome with a little burn.

Like I said; this is arguable. I'm a huge fan of Okafor and Wallace; but I'm not sure they've got the mentality for greatness. MJ was a powerful force because of his incredible skills; but what got him 6 rings was lust for the game - something that's inherent in few of the greatest people in the game.

[WarioVsMooChicken]

I wouldn't care if a player plays because he can't find better things to do with his time if he put up the stats that Wallace or Mek put up.

[TheBeagle]

It's hard to argue with the man with 4th row Bobcats bench seats :wink: , and generally I agree with everything you mentioned, especially Mek's will and motivation which are highly questionable, BUT I don't understand the GW argument.

You say he is more committed to "the idea of playing hard and winning than truly needing to beat the competition." I interpret this (and this may be your argument) as being Gerald being more concerned with this "idea," which, if I remember my Plato correctly, is analogous to an ideal, as opposed to what is real. You further the argument by indicating that "his play on the court is more about him being a good show, than about the game result." The inference that is easily made is that GW is more style than substance, which is where I take exception. Where you argue he values "the idea", I see the extension of "idea" into "reality": he does play hard and he does want to win, so there is definite substance there.

Also, I'm not sure how the reality of his playing hard and wanting to win conflicts with the desire to "truly needing to beat the competition." If playing hard and wanting to win don't correlate with the desire to "truly" beat opponents, I'm not sure what else can be done outside of magically acquiring say Kobe Bryant's or LeBron's skill-set, which is where GW is more lacking.

If you could give examples, actual instances during games in which GW doesn't play to "truly...beat the competition", or how Raymond, Matty, JRich, and JD exhibit this desire where GW doesn't, maybe I could understand your argument better. Otherwise, I'm confused ???

[BIGCatBobcat]

Beagle should we be scared of analysis like that? Cause I am....
In all seriousness your arguments are both good. I think Mek lacks that fire and drive. He is in the league because he can be. He is a smart guy and making millions a year, getting on tv, playing(remember they are just games) and doing something that you truly enjoy isn't a bad way to make a living. Gerald is one of those guys that loves basketball, he's always wanted to be where he is right now. He does have that competitive spirit, drive, determination all the great things we as fans hope for in our best player. Why would he give up his body and come back for more like he does? Jordan is the best all time because he made himself that way, never forget (I know it gets old) that he didn't make his JV team in high school. He is the most driven person maybe ever but definitely that I've witnessed in sports. Not to mention he has probably lost more money than some country's GDP on the golf course simply because he loves competition. If you look at the competitive drive each player on the Bobcats has I think you have to go: Crash, Dudley, J-Rich, Ray, Matt, Jermareo, Ryan, Ammo then it falls off into the abyss but I feel solid about those guys as a core.

[dnbman]

I understand completely what Keetch is saying.

I don't remotely think Wallace is style over substance. Rather, I think he's the guy who would try really hard to win, but if he lost, he'd happily buy you a beer afterwards; he's a good sportsman who plays hard on the court.

Jordan and Kobe are guys that would buy you a beer after a loss, but while you're talking, they're centrally focused on ripping out your heart. These guys have to beat you, not just play a good game and hope it works out.

We commonly call this the killer instinct, the intangible quality that works like psychological adrenaline, focusing all of the player's mental energy on destroying his opponents.

That intangible quality is what separates the Jordans and Bryants from the Drexlers and Ray Allens. Richardson seems to have it at times. Felton definitely has it at times. I'm not sure Carroll or Dudley have it, but they certainly feed off of it.

By the way, this begs the question, how then do you motivate a guy like Okafor who cares more about charity than what's going on on the court.

I think the answer is simple: Okafor has to believe in the thing he is a part of. He has to have a cause and folks around him that he feels are committed to that cause. I think right now the cause is poorly defined, and he certainly doesn't have faith in this team or the coaching. He may say he does, but deep down, I do not think he believes in what the Bobcats are doing. The good thing is, I think that can change and change quickly. As soon as we have a relevant system that is constant and everyone else on the team participates, I think you'll see Okafor begin to have a Yeoman's mentality. However, until the vision is clear and everyone's participating, he's going to be up and down.

(I took out the Samurai reference. I don't think it made sense the way I wanted it to. Suffice to say, they didn't think about the battle. They focused everything on delivering the death blow. </easternflutemusic>

[Keetch]

Beagle I appreciate your comments. I'm not trying to really diss Wallace's effort or desire, but I think Dnbman responded better than I could. It was just some thoughts from game observations.

And lately with our winning streak, I've become concerned about the Bobcats ability to win with Wallace now returning.

I haven't really seen the "agony" when we lose or when things don't go well. Its a fine line; maybe too fine to adequately define. But when Crash gets angry, its not necessarily a good thing for the team. When Jordan got "angry", well Jordan didn't get angry; Jordan got justice.

I know its unfair to compare anyone to MJ. But the will to win is a trait of many champions; even all the ones that can never measure up to the man.

[TheBeagle]

Beagle I appreciate your comments. I'm not trying to really diss Wallace's effort or desire, but I think Dnbman responded better than I could. It was just some thoughts from game observations.

And lately with our winning streak, I've become concerned about the Bobcats ability to win with Wallace now returning.

I haven't really seen the "agony" when we lose or when things don't go well. Its a fine line; maybe too fine to adequately define. But when Crash gets angry, its not necessarily a good thing for the team. When Jordan got "angry", well Jordan didn't get angry; Jordan got justice.

I know its unfair to compare anyone to MJ. But the will to win is a trait of many champions; even all the ones that can never measure up to the man.
Okay. I can understand that and respect it. You're right in implying that it's an intangible that we're discussing, and saying that it's a fine line that is difficult to define. I also agree with the example you gave; when Crash gets angry, he, much like me, gets stubborn and hard-headed, instead of chaning things up and getting better results. Example: when he goes hard to the basket and doesn't get a foul called, sometimes he goes right back to it and dares the ref NOT to make a call this time, and if the ref calls a charge, or if he doesn't call anything, GW usually winds up with a T or he'll do it all over again. It's this trait that makes me love the guy all the more, but it definitely doesn't do the team any good.

As far as "showing" signs of "agony" or disappointment when things are taking a downward turn, as Raymond does, I honestly think it's the stoic in him. I think his visible signs of agony equal his visible signs of euphoria, as he rarely draws attention to himself with gestures or whatnot after a highlight slam or a vicious block on a helpless opponent; he has an even keel, which, maybe represents a lack of true desire to beat the competition, but also allows him to deal with adversity on the court (aside from those random moments of anger :wink: )

Basically, it seems the definition of a "true" competitor, taking cues from DNB and Keetch, is basically that of the alpha male, which MJ and Kobe definitely are, probably to the point of being super alphas. I agree, GW does not exhibit the signs of the alpha male, but I think he senses there is no real one present on the team, therefore he does at times take his game outside its limits to the detriment of the team.

I hope this makes some sense, because I think this is actually a really good discussion....

And yes, BIGCAT, you should be scared of my analysis; I'm in the midst of working on my MA thesis, so some of that scholarly b.s. inevitably worms its way into my threads, and for that I apologize, as nobody should have to put up with that outside of academia. Believe me, I get sick of it myself :wink:

[MattD]

Ill post my 2 cents in here... the will to win is how teams succeed.

However to question any player on the NBA's level "desire" to win games is ridiculous in my opinion.

The real question is what they are trying to win for.

Mek boxed out what, one time tonight? He isnt playing with any passion because he has nothing to play for. Money is great, but winning is glory... I am 99% sure any player on the bobcats would say they are in the nba because they love the game of basketball (except maybe Tyrus Thomas, whos in it for the money).

Everyone wants to win, but players like Mek are in the situation where their coach is retarded and the team poor, last year of his contract, he could go somewhere else. He doesnt deserve 10 mill, so what happens when he takes 8 with someone else? We dont know, but the passion for the game can inspire players to be incredible.

In reality, the NBA is what you make of it. I truely believe that once your in the nba it is your choice how good you want to be. Every great player always spends thoughs extra hours after practice, shooting another thousand, lifting, conditioning, studying. To reach the NBA level you have to be a great bball player, then it is up to you how good you can be. (lets take the exception with late second rounders like Ryan, he works hard as hell but still, well, struggles)

I see the desire to be the best in Jrich, thats why he has developed such a sweet stroke, but he cannot do it all.

Okafor is a good ball player, but without the passion, he is dead weight, just like the rest of the NBA. The bobcats have given up on their coach, to not box out in the NBA is rediculous, to let the mavs have three shots in one possesion is rediculous.

We are playing out there dead because we have nothing to play for. Sad isnt it?

As far as starting Jermareo, I still wouldnt. He should get more burn, the dude can score, anyone else watch him swish threes in warmups. He could be a big impact player IF he works hard and has his own desire

[ohara831]

Man, this was great conversation and some briliant insight from everyone! This was a great read!

From my point, I think Gerald shows the heart of a lion. From my past posts, I have always said that even when a game seemed lost, he never quits. He has a passion and a drive which I love. I do think he has that killer instinct like a Jordan or Kobe, but he just doesn't have the TALENT that those two do or did. And that is NOT a slam on Gerald at all. We are talking about 2 of the best 10 players of all time. He has the instinct; he just cannot do it by himself like a MJ or Kobe can.

Okafor is an enigma. We all seem to agree that there is just something missing. This goes back to my argument most of the season about why I would trade him for a Lottery pick if possible. No, I am not starting that debate here again. I am just stating that I see others now citing things about Okafor which have concerned me all season and have given me pause to consider whether he fits into our long term plans.

[spectre]

Okafor is an enigma. We all seem to agree that there is just something missing. This goes back to my argument most of the season about why I would trade him for a Lottery pick if possible. No, I am not starting that debate here again. I am just stating that I see others now citing things about Okafor which have concerned me all season and have given me pause to consider whether he fits into our long term plans.

Sad to say I'm ready to start that debate again (only I'm betting it won't be so much a debate this go-round). It's too late to trade him for a pick, but I think we're going to have to do something.

We can discuss it here, a new thread or resurrect another if you guys are so inclined.

[ohara831]

Spectre: What are you contemplating as our options? What do we get if someone signs him to an offer sheet and we dont match? Picks? If so, in the 2008 Draft or 2009? A sign and trade would likely mean getting a player of comparable salary back but perhaps a quality Draft pick added on if that player we get is at the end of his career, still able to be of significant value and who is an expiring contract the next season. (Not sure that pick would be Lottery tho) Thoughts on what else we can accomplish if we dont keep Okafor?

[dav7z]

I agree with you guys about Okafor . But ever one has to addmit he has value a lot of value . Could have the most value on the team. A good defencive big man is hard to come by. My thoughts of his value is a proven player p/f or center and a first round draft pick . Sign and trade might the best way to do this.

[spectre]

During our 5 game streak Mek has looked like crap. He didn't show fire like the rest of the guys and he's continually letting borderline NBA players look like all stars against him. Vincent pissed him off at the beginning of the year and I don't think he's let it go yet. I don't know that he'll stay here if Vincent isn't fired...and even then I have a big problem paying him the kind of money he's going to want.

The '08 draft is pretty much out now. I guess whoever we're dealing with could select for us and then trade the player, but I don't know if that's ever happened...so picks will probably have to come from '09.

Optimal: S&T Mek for Jamison and Blatche. More realistic would be Mek for Jamison, but we'd still need some help from Antawn, like him demanding to be traded to us...cuz I wouldn't do it if I were them.

Sign Diop as a FA next summer.

Another idea: I know that Minny fans see Mek as a perfect compliment to Jefferson, so their pick plus maybe Brewer and additional players to meet salary. Brewer's been a disappointment and he can't shoot for beans, but he is a defensive lockdown guy and he's on a rookie deal. Foye would be better, but he'd be hard to pry away.

They might even think of drafting for us with this year's pick, but like I said I don't think that ever happens.

Any other ideas?

[ohara831]

Deal with Clippers.

S&T with Shaun Livingston; PG 9.3 pts and 5.1 assts (great back up for Ray and can push him)
Tim Thomas - quality serviceable PF
Their 1st rounder in 08

for

S&T Okafor
Sean May (either he pans out after injury for them or he is a good expiring Contract for them in the future. If he pans out, a quality move for them to give up Thomas. A risk they might think worth taking.
Our 2nd rounder

Would you do it?

[spectre]

I'm not a fan of Thomas, and he's under contract for 2 more seasons at 6 per. He's not a great shooter (tho he is a perimeter type PF) nor is he a good rebounder. Livingston...is he going to be able to play anymore? I know he's on target to get back during summer league next year, but I'd want to know he could come back since he's (IMO) the only talent we're getting back in the deal other than the draft pick.

They also have Kaman, who's looking better than Mek right now.

I'm assuming you'd look for paint D in the draft?

Don't feel bad...I'm not a fan of my Minny idea either. Y'know the Minny fans on RealGM debated offering us Ratliff's expiring and their unconditional 1st this year, and many were for it. Right now I'd be all over that.

We should never have let it come to this. If Mek takes the QA we're screwed.

[Chef]

Thomas is absolute poison to a team, especially a young one like ours. He only plays hard if a contract is at stake.

One thing to ponder, if we only get .50 on the dollar for mek, is it that big of a deal if the alternative is spending big money for several years on a player who has little heart and still can not establish and keep a pivot foot on any back to the basket post move.

[davcbow]

Id be real careful whatever trade might happen concerning Mek.
Id have my concerns..

1) Will it make us better?
2) Would it be some sort of bail out option? Is Mek wanting out of Charlotte? If so we will end up getting screwed in the trade somehow.
3) Is management planning on getting rid of Mek no matter what and have some slick move lined up?
4) Would Mek explode on us playing for the team he goes to?

It makes my head hurt to think of all the "what ifs". :g:

[ohara831]

Minny's unconditional would be awesome. My thinking is "yes, big D in the paint with a Big man". But, I am also thinking ahead with caution. A 2nd Lottery pick would be terrific to land another SF or PF with scoring potential. I say this b/c we simply don't know what will happen with Crash. I watched him in the Dallas game, and everyime he hit the floor I cringed. It is very concerning to me that our star SF could be just one more concussion away from a forced retirement. Taking this opportunity to shore up our Defense inside with a Big man, and then grabbing another SF or PF with scoring potential may be worth the price of giving up Okafor.

Imagine where we might be next yr. If Okafor plays out next season as Spectre says, and then he walks. Compound that with the uncertainty of Crash and what happens if he is forced into retirement. Our franchise would be crippled for a few yrs trying to recover. We would lose some of he fan base we have worked hard to earn.

I know we cannot look into the crystal ball and see the future for sure. But, it is wisest to always take precautions when you are potentially sailing into stormy seas. And I can see a storm a comin'!

[dav7z]

A Arenas, Jamison. for Okafor and Felton. Money wize it probely could be made to work
Both sides get better i think. Buttler, Okafor makes them a much more physical team. And a better defencive team.
Reasons the Wizzards would do it . Arenas has allready stated he wants out any way he can get out.
Jamison for a much younger Okafor helps thr rebuilding process. Felton a young rising point is not much of a drop off from Arenas.
I just don't know if its enough for us or not. Add a first to that.

David Lee and NYs first for Okafor might work.
Okafor , and our second for Jefferson
Brand for Okafor
Kaman and a first from the Clippers.

[spectre]

Arenas wants a max contract and Jamison will get probably 13-14 million, so I don't really think that's feasible. Haywood is half the price of Emeka and their stats are somewhat comparable, so I don't really see them wanting him too badly, esp. at what he's wanting. IMO it'd take Jamison demanding a S&T to us in order to get anything done.

After his "goal oriented" season is anyone willing to give him last year's offer that he turned down of 13 million per year? If we offered any less isn't it probable that he'd take that as an insult?

I see guys playing very similar for MUCH less money, and most of those have passion. I honestly can't remember the last "and one" Mek has had where he got fouled slamming it down. It's like he expects contact so he doesn't worry about making the basket.

It might be pretty hard getting anything worthwhile, esp. now after the deadline.

[spectre]

David Lee and NYs first for Okafor might work.
&#160; &#160; &#160; Okafor , and our second for Jefferson
&#160; &#160; &#160; Brand for Okafor
&#160; &#160; &#160; Kaman and a first from the Clippers.

Remember that it's very unlikely we can get an '08 pick unless we're getting the team to pick for us.&#160; Not sure on RFAs, but I know you can't even talk to a FA before July 1st, which is after the draft.

Still:

Lee & NY's 1st for Mek...I'd do.&#160; Maybe Isiah can save us like he has other teams. They'd need to add filler however to make salaries work, so we'd have to watch that.

Brand for Okafor...they have Kaman so I don't see their motivation.

Kaman and a 1st for Mek...they'd probably want OUR first.

[ziggy]

My fear with moving Emeka is that he looks like a star under a legitimate NBA coach.

Also, hes the only big man that we have that makes opponents think twice about driving the lane.

Its next to impossible to judge any of our players this season under our current "Coach".

[BIGCatBobcat]

My fear with moving Emeka is that he looks like a star under a legitimate NBA coach.

Also, hes the only big man that we have that makes opponents think twice about driving the lane.

Its next to impossible to judge any of our players this season under our current "Coach".



I have to agree with you on this one Zig. Mek is a talented guy with size and defensive skills. It's hard to like him because he is that good but he just doesn't look like he tries all that hard. He's also sensitive.
He played huge last night, he was doing what he wanted to, looked great on offense and played pretty nice defense against Houston's bigs. It just brings us back to that original question, how bad does he want to win? How hard does he want to work? How aggressive can he be on offense? On his off nights does he hurt us that bad? I just don't know...Probably won't know until he gets a real coach that doesn't break his psyche.

[ohara831]

Ziggy and BigCat

Then, are you ready to pay him $13 mil or higher as he wants for a long term Contract? Are you truly comfortable enough with his play to wed yourself to him for another 6-7 years? You know that his Contract, along with J-Rich, Crash, Carroll and soon to be Ray's, will effectively mean they are our big 5 for the next 5 years. Do you believe they are talented enough as a group to take us to the Promised Land? Cause if they are not, then it severly limits our future. I am not so sure that I dont think someone like Hibbert cannot be just as much a Defensive presence inside, and will get better on the offensive end as he learns more. I think Hibbert can live up to what Okafor has become and even surpass him; and we can grab him in the middle of the 1st round and have him for 5 years and 1/4 the cost of Okafor. I just don't think Okafor's ceiling is as high as we all thought. He has the occasional great game, but far to seldom to justify that kind of $ and commitment. The long term Contract we are getting ourselves into here is making me very uncomfortable for our future. Adding Okafor and then Ray to those numbers - I just dont know if that kind of commitment is wisely invested. I am doubtful that the group of players we currently have are capable of getting us to the Promised Land-an NBA Title.

[ziggy]

Ziggy and BigCat

Then, are you ready to pay him $13 mil or higher as he wants for a long term Contract? Are you truly comfortable enough with his play to wed yourself to him for another 6-7 years? You know that his Contract, along with J-Rich, Crash, Carroll and soon to be Ray's, will effectively mean they are our big 5 for the next 5 years. Do you believe they are talented enough as a group to take us to the Promised Land? Cause if they are not, then it severly limits our future. I am not so sure that I dont think someone like Hibbert cannot be just as much a Defensive presence inside, and will get better on the offensive end as he learns more. I think Hibbert can live up to what Okafor has become and even surpass him; and we can grab him in the middle of the 1st round and have him for 5 years and 1/4 the cost of Okafor. I just don't think Okafor's ceiling is as high as we all thought. He has the occasional great game, but far to seldom to justify that kind of $ and commitment. The long term Contract we are getting ourselves into here is making me very uncomfortable for our future. Adding Okafor and then Ray to those numbers - I just dont know if that kind of commitment is wisely invested. I am doubtful that the group of players we currently have are capable of getting us to the Promised Land-an NBA Title.

This may sound backwards but, If you give me a quality coach, then that guy can make Emeka a $13 mil per year player. Under Sam Vincent hes more like an $8 mil per year player. Under the current coach/system theres no way that he can achieve that level of play.

[ohara831]

But Ziggy, Okafor's numbers have gone down the last few years after a stellar Rookie season. He has not matched that Rookie year since. And Sam was not his Coach the last 2 years. I know Bernie was no genius, but we cannot keep blaming the Coaches for the failure of a player(s) to not live up to expectations. This whole talk got started because we were all talking about his failure to seem to be motivated and always play his hardest. That should not be up to a Coach to get you to play that way. A competitor with a heart of a lion has that drive, that fire, and good Coach or bad Coach, it always shows. And I am not alone in seeing that it does not always show in Okafor. And that cannot be acceptable when you are talking about paying someone to be your Rock in the paint.

[ohara831]

Another thing that concerns me greatly is Crash's health. He could be one more concussion from a forced retirement. We need to prepare for that in case, because he will not change his style of play. When I watched him the other night hit the ground, it sends chills up my spine just praying he doesn't start holding his head after it bouncing off the floor.

I have an idea and I want to get your opinions. We know that NY is in shambles and they will hve to make changes. They cannot get rid of Zach Randolph with his Contract and reputation (if he was not mental, I'd love him as my PF, great numbers!) They need stability, character and a change of personnel. How about this:
We do a sign and trade of Okafor to NY, and they send us Nate Robinson (PG who can not only back up Ray, but push him) and a sign and trade for new Contract with David Lee (young good PF) plus they give us their 1st rounder.
Why: It gives us a young PF we need. It gives us a high quality back up PG who is young and can push Ray to keep getting better, or else... Then, it gives us a 2nd Lottery pick. That way, we can grab Hibbert or Thabeet for our Center, and use the other for the best player available, preferably a SF with great scoring potential. That way, should things turn bad for us with Crash and his health, we have someone who can step in. I like Morrison and Dudley, but they are quality bench players who can give us 20-25 minutes, not starters who can become stars. Also, the money for Okafor's salary is split on 2 very needed positions, and not just one man.

I would be all over that trade. My only concern is whether NY would be willing to part with David Lee. But they might for Okafor.

[BIGCatBobcat]

I actually am ready to take a flier on Emeka. Hibbert is a stiff. Dude looks like he can barely move. We'd almost be better off taking the guy from UNC-A. 7-6 is better than 7-1 right?
Seriously, Mek is sensitive. He was the guy for 2 years. The face of the franchise. Okafor in '04 remember that. Bernie and management were behind him. Gerald starts to take off and he doesn't know his place on the team anymore. New coach comes in, makes some comments, says he needs some other bigs, totally bursts Mek's bubble. Like I said in the game thread, I don't feel bad for pro athletes but Okafor had had his world turned upsidedown in the last 2 years.
I'm thinking the devil you know sort of. What are we going to have if we get rid of Mek? I say let him test the waters, tell him our ceiling and if he gets a giant contract he gets a giant contract. I'd say he's in the $10-$11mil range. Am I way off to think an average, I know it doesn't mean every night(he has bad nights ok?), 13 and 11 is worth $11mil? I think under a new coach he's at about 17 and 12 maybe? Again who's to say? All I know is we have a good big defender, hardly hurt(this year), young and can improve if we get one of those great assistants to show him how to play center or PF in the NBA. I BELIEVE!

[ohara831]

But BigCat, you are making the exact arguments FOR what I am saying. If a player is so soft mentally that having another great player can all of a sudden cause him to lose his confidence and focus, who wants that on the team? Who wants to pay that $13 mil? Do you really think he'd take $11 after we offered $13 last year? That would bring his confidence down even more.

As for Hibbert, I think his Defense is more developed than his offense, but that will come for the big guy. But with NY's 1st, we could get lucky and land the big guy from Stanford - Brook Lopez, or take a flyer on DeAndre Jordan developing into the stud the experts think he'll become. Or in the late Lottery you have Kevin Love, whom I think is more of a Big 4. There are options. But 2 Lottery picks and David Lee playing our starting PF, I really think we can start a terrific starting 5 next season. Make our money go a lot farther and not get into a very crippling long term major Contract.

[BIGCatBobcat]

Thomas has suprised before but I doubt they'll trade David Lee. He is the only player in NY that anyone likes from what I've read. I'm not saying it's the best situation, I'm not saying that I'd be disappointed if he did sign for $13+ somewhere else.
I have a feeling this is going to be like the summer where Moose (Panther's Moose) was a free agent and he got the deal with Chicago and the team wasn't talking those numbers with him. Hated to see him go but we just don't see his value over a certain level.
I just don't want to see him hit the road and us do nothing. I'd like to see him light the damn world on fire the last few weeks of the regular season and have a big playoffs (right?) and earn a big contract. I'm not going to say the guy has no heart, I just think he's highly effected by outside influences, that's not a huge knock, I don't think. He's a #2 overall pick. He's got size and skills. $13 might not be too much. I'm talking myself into it more and more.

[ohara831]

I have to say, this is going to be one heck of a time from here on out. When they drop the ping pong balls, the rumors will start flying!

[Keetch]

I'm totally for keeping Okafor and signing him to a reasonable contract. I think all this talk of Mek's demanding the max isn't going to play out.

Emeka Okafor will be fine. What Mek needs is an intelligent team with a serious approach to coaching. All the downer Okafor talk to me is just witness to the Bobcats poor club management; not the quality of Number 50.

[dav7z]

This box score shows how much Okafor showed up.
http://www.nba.com/games/20080316/CHACLE/boxscore.html
People thats no max contract player . ONLY ONE FOUL, 4 FOR 12, 10 points. Okafor should have killed BIG BEN , but Ben made Okafor his bitch.
Hell NAZZ scored and rebounded better and showed a better effort on defencive. No way we can offer him a max contract with all the free agents this year.
I was saying 13 milion a year . But i think now hes worth no more than eight miliom a year over six years 56 milion.Wallace has more value i think 57 milion over six years .
At eight milion we have room to sign a nice mid range free agent two .
We can go a lot of ways . It should be instering to see how this comes out.We may not want him at all?

[ohara831]

When we talk about a man's character, there is none higher than Okafor's. He is a quality individual. I love him as a member of the team, if just for that. He is a good player, but no where near an elite player. And in the business world, you have to sometimes make hard decisions whicdh hurt personally, but you know they are the RIGHT decisions. If we can turn Okafor into a 2 players and a Lottery pick, then that is the smart move. If we cannot, then we try to get him to come around to a Contract in the range of what we pay Crash. But if he wont do that, then I think we have to move him and get the very best possible deal. Cannot let him go for nothing and cannot pay him $13 mil or above when he is not close to being worth it.

[spectre]

Say we could get some capspace, a pick this year and one next year as well as some potential out of Crash & Mek...is Felton/Mayo/JSwish/Jamison/Diop better or worse than what we are currently running with now?

Rough stuff here:

Trade Mek to Minny for Brewer (McCants/Gomes) plus their '09 pick...should get the capspace with these guys with which we make a major push for Jamison.

Trade Crash to Milwaukee for Yi or CV plus their '08 pick. Filler could be an issue with them (their filler to us) as they have no capspace to absorb any difference in salary. I'll throw in Bell for this exercise.

Take Mayo with our pick and Augustin (or Jordan/Randolph/Hibbert) with Milwaukee's pick. Since I included Bell above I'll go with Jordan...I've never seen him so sub in another big if you're so inclined.

Sign Diop to at least the MLE...go slightly over if need be. I'd probably include Ammo in one of the above trades (or Hammer).

Felts/Bell
Mayo/Hammer/Brewer
JSwish/CV/Duds
Jamison/Jordan/Davidson
Diop/Nazr

[ohara831]

Spectre:

That is some serious restructuring! I would hate to se Crash go, but then again, he and Okafor are our 2 most valuable commodities. There is a lot I like about it.

First, I'd rather have McCants and Gomes rather than Brewer. He's looking much like a bust offensively, but he is good on Defense. Bucks would give us CV, but not Yi. Bell is serviceable also and they would give him up for Crash.

*If there is any way under the sun to get the Minn 08 rather than 09, I'd be in love with the deal. With McCants and Gomes, I'd happily give up Carroll in the deal - frees up more money. Before I'd commit to Jamison, I'd see how the ping pong balls fell. And that plays into why I want the Minn 08 rather than 09. That would give us 3 picks in the Top 8. Right now, they would be #2, #7 and #8. With any luck at all, one of them might hit #1 in the Lottery. If we got Beasley, no need to spend the FA $ on Jamison. Just imagine if we can fill 3 holes from the Top 8 picks. Build around Ray and J-Rich, oh yeah! I love that deal. Just flip over to nbadraft.net, and look at the ones in the Top 10. You can pick 3 of them, and know that they will likely be anywhere from #1 - #8. HOw about Beasley, Lopez and Bayless? Maybe Beasley, Lopez and Mayo? Sub Jordan in for Lopez if you like.
Maybe you prefer Gordon from Indiana instead.

I would really hate to give up Crash, but this deal would be worth it. This is good as it also sheds some high dollar Contracts and in return gets us 3 of the Top 8 picks which will have us in financial stability for several years, and make this one of the most exciting teams to watch in 2009. You know that he networks will love to put us on to see a team likely starting 3 Rookies who come into the league so highly touted. We'd be on several times a season on ESPN and TNT. Good publicity, TV coverage = money for the Team. Money for the team = money to spend in the future!

[spectre]

*If there is any way under the sun to get the Minn 08 rather than 09, I'd be in love with the deal.

Maybe Tam can chime in, but I'm almost positive we can't even discuss Mek's situation until after July 1st (I know that's correct with FAs...not so sure about RFAs).&#160; Any corroboration would be much appreciated in that regard.

I LOVE Crash...he's my most favorite player BY FAR.&#160; It'd kill me to let him go.&#160; However, IMO the team would be better overall to cash in on him while his value is high and move JSwish to the 3 as I think he's better in that position anyway.&#160; We lose defense, but that's why I'd target Mayo; he's a great defensive 2 with handles (can spell the PG slot on occasion).&#160;

I threw Brewer in for his defense as I think we're pitiful now and adding Mayo whlie subtracting Crash makes for pretty much a wash (not really, but in general).&#160; No matter what we do we HAVE to address that and soon.

No problem really with moving Hammer over Ammo, but realize that Hammer is more expensive for the next season only; Ammo's QO is higher than what Hammer is slated to make the next season.

I've not seen Mayo much, but isn't his game similar to Ammo's in that he creates vs. spotting up?&#160; If we got McCants instead of Brewer (I'm pretty sure he's a good "spot up" shooter) Hammer might be the better to go, but if not I'd like to keep Hammer if his game is more unique in regards to the team's arsenal.

[ohara831]

I get where you're coming from on Ammo vs Hammer. I really wanted to try and hold Ammo for another yr, and here's why? From a point of tradeable assets, Ammo is seen already by many as a "bust" so his value is not as high as Carroll, IMO. But, for those of us who watched Ammo last season and in the Preseason this yr, I think we all saw marked improvement in his shooting % and his Defense. I really thought that he was going to have a yr of redemption. If he heals OK, I really think he can be a major asset off our bench for highly productive minutes. So, it is a matter of thinking he can give us more production than Hammer, as well as his "trade value".

I agree that Mayo can be a player, but I have not studied his Defensive assets as much as his Offensive ones. That he can be a Combo Guard is terrific if he needs to take that over for Ray on occasions. But my goodness, Beasley and Jordan or Beasley and Lopez on that front line. Put that with Ray, Mayo and J-Rich, or Ray, Gordon and J-Rich, and we would have a starting 5 avg 85 pts. And with bench players like Ammo, Dudley,McCants, Gomes, CV, Bell, Davidson and Nazr we'd be avg 120/ game.

Agreed, it would be heartbreaking to give up Crash, but he and Okafor are our 2 most viable assets to get Lottery picks. Ray also, but I am warming up more and more to keeping him as our PG.

[dav7z]

It seems like Okafor has lost a lot of value sience the season started. As it looks like most are ready to blow up the core and start again. In the game last night Crash and Okafor both looked so pissed . Kinda like screw that stupid coach.
I don't know if im ready to blow up the team and start over or just try to keep building. Is the problem in the players as well as the coaches. If it is we might need to blow up the team and start over.
If Okafor and Crash is open for trade then we should just put the whole team on the block and listen to all offers.
That includes Felton , MAY , Morrison Nazz and Dudley. Rich and do away with one year contracts like D.A. Hollins, Davidson,
All of that should be up for discussion if we going as far as to put up Crash and Okafor.
I just don't know if im ready to blow up the team , YET. Even though Darko used OK . last night.

[dav7z]

It seems like Okafor has lost a lot of value sience the season started. As it looks like most are ready to blow up the core and start again. In the game last night Crash and Okafor both looked so pissed . Kinda like screw that stupid coach.
I don't know if im ready to blow up the team and start over or just try to keep building. Is the problem in the players as well as the coaches. If it is we might need to blow up the team and start over.
If Okafor and Crash is open for trade then we should just put the whole team on the block and listen to all offers.
That includes Felton , MAY , Morrison Nazz and Dudley. Rich and do away with one year contracts like D.A. Hollins, Davidson,
All of that should be up for discussion if we going as far as to put up Crash and Okafor.
I just don't know if im ready to blow up the team , YET. Even though Darko used OK . last night.

[bizzlecatz]

Dav7z, The problem I see with the players is, the only one who know their role on the team is Dudley. They have no game plan, no offensive, or deffensive scheme. Nothing to build upon.

Most nights they are playing 5 on 10 basketball.

The opponents starting 5
The 3 ref's
The opponents Coach
SAM VINCENT

That's a hard battle to try and over come this late in the season.

But, if we must blow it up, I have to ammit, this is the way to do it. :)
So, carry on Ohara, and Spectra.

[Muttley]

Okay, this is really interesting stuff. Spectre, OHara y'all just keep on talking.



the only one who know their role on the team is Dudley.

Most nights they are playing 5 on 10 basketball.


Both well put. The more I see Dudley play, the more I like him. He's the only one I've seen to NEVER give up on anything.

The second sentence has been exceptionally apparent in the past few games. I feel bad trying to blame refs, but they can seriously effect games and team's morale if they make enough bad calls early enough in the game.



Felts/Bell
Mayo/Hammer/Brewer
JSwish/CV/Duds
Jamison/Jordan/Davidson
Diop/Nazr


Damn, you sure can put a team together. And reasonably, too. That line-up isn't out of reach, and the best part is, the positions are well defined, which is something that I feel has hurt us as of late.

However, how long would it be before Vincent moves Jamison to C, and Swish to PF?

[ohara831]

Muttley, I am proceeding under the assumption that as the team continues to look as tho they are quitting on their Coach, and he is giving up on them, that MJ and Bob will have to "move him to another position within the company" and hire a new Coach. Otherwise, any moves will be futile.

How does this strike you as a possibility:

Ray/Bell
Gordon or Mayo/McCants/2nd round pick
J-Rich/CV/Dudley/Ammo
Beasley/Davidson/Dudley/May
Lopez/Nazr/Hollins

Do you think that lineup can do some damage? That eliminates 3 major Contracts with uncertainty - We dont deal with Okafor's huge Contract and be disappointed with his output, we dont have to have concerns re: Crash's health, and we dont have to hold Carroll's over priced Contract. And those 3 Rookies I mentioned above will be ours at a bargained price for the next few years.

Think of the publicity also. 3 of the major Rookies starting for us. They will want us on TV at least 3X/month on ESPN or TNT. The pub will be great for the team, the coliseum will be sold out every game, and we will have a young dynamic team to watch grow together and start to dominate. This would be my Dream Team!

[Edrow]

Just...win...baby.

At this point, I don't care if we have midgets playing on our team, I just want wins. This is absurd.

[TheBeagle]

I love you guys (spectre and ohara), but I think you have too much common sense, as opposed to Bobcats management. Ohara, you and I advocated in December about how this team needed to be rebuilt before we turned into a legit contender, and nearly 4 months later, the evidence shows that we were right (though we were wrong about JRich...he IS the real deal!). This team was put together with the best of intentions, but it just is not working. Is coaching to blame? Without a doubt. Still, there is something about this roster: the softness inside offensively and defensively, team rebounding, a logjam at 2/3. Eh....it's just not working, obviously.

I really enjoy and, generally, agree with the radical changes proposed. The problem is, I don't think Bobcats management has the "manhood" to do this. I have this loathsome feeling that not only will "coach" be back, but Mek will be re-signed for 13M. I think the only upgrade we will receive is via our 1st rounder and 2nd rounder in this year's draft, along with some ancillary veteran that fills in a McInnis-like role.

This is what I think MJ's though process is: Our coach has a year under his belt now, he'll turn it around in year 2. Plus we struggled because May and Morrison were out the whole year. With them back plus our two draft picks, we have no reason not to make the playoffs. Emeka averages a double double, not many can do that, so let's give him his 13M, and see him improve as a post scorer with the help of our coaching staff. Yeah, I know what I'm doing. F*** my critics!!

But in the back of his mind, on a subconscious level is this: I'm scared to make any drastic changes because then all my peers will criticize me and make fun of me like they did when I got run out of Washington.

That's what I think our future holds, and slowly but surely I'm starting to sink into the hole that has fully-consumed Tom Sorensen and his ilk, and to a lesser-degree of consumption, John Delong of the Winston Salem Journal, who is skeptical that Bob will do whatever it takes, monetarily speaking, to field a winning team.

Here's hoping to a change that you're discussing, but be prepared for status quo...

[ohara831]

That is some sobering analysis, Beagle. You may be right about what mgmnt does. That is one reason why I realy want them to bite the bullet and hire someone with a high basketball IQ in "building" a team. It seems our current regime is not very good at it, but with good intentions. Agree with you on J-Rich. If you can avg 21 pts/game in the NBA as a 2, you will be fine. He's lethal outside and can keep a Defense honest by keeping a man on him - or else. It was a good call by the team, and I cannot disagree with it.

I am hoping that all the disfunction and disharmony this year will give mgmnt no option but to make major changes. I hope MJ's ego will be checked and he will not look at this as another Washington situation. He just has to understand that sometimes you have to tear down and rebuild if you find the structure is 80% complete but is not "sound". Our team is not "sound", and this applies to even the "core". We need to start over. Builing around J-Rich and Ray is fine with me, if we can get the trades done as Spectre and I have proposes.

[Keetch]

I'm gonna disagree a little.

I'm just not an advocate of breaking it up; though Spectre's work on the trade front is pretty amazing.

As for MJ, I bet he's mighty mad at what's going on; but true Vincent is his man; so I bet he's mighty conflicted too.

The terribly frustrating part of this is that the team has talented players that can be enormously fun to watch and follow. I'm not ready to give up on these guys long term.

As someone else has mentioned; the team needs to find roles for its players and give them time to grow into themselves in the NBA.

Last September, I predicted this team would win 31 games. I was kind of being a heretic; but my serious concern was the teams failure to find a starting Power Forward during the summer. It looked to me like we were setting up to get destroyed inside. Part of that logic was based on the feeling that Okafor would probably miss 10-20 games as well; which he hasn't. In any event; it doesn't look like we'll make it to 31!

So now in March its clear that the current coaches have managed to fully exploit that lack of depth on the front line to the fullest. Not to mention other failures.

Sam told Bonnell that the team was "out of gas" after the Memphis Monstrosity.

That makes me feel better.

Of course, you also don't win if you have a coach that doesn't believe you can. Any personnel changes will be useless if they don't start with "coach".