Felton & Lawson - Two of a kind?

[ohara831]

This topic is more of a combo of Bobcats Talk and the NBA Draft, so I just put it here.

Something I've observed this season. It really hit home for me last night. Have you noticed that for all their good play at times, occasionally when the Cats or Heels find themselves in tight games, the PG's seem to be making flawed decisions? I mean, let me give you some examples.

Go back and look at some of the Game Threads from our tougher losses. It is late in the 4th qtr in a tight game. How often do we say "What was Ray thinking?" He hoists up an ill advised 3, or drives the lane into traffic with 7 footers and loses the ball or tosses up a shot on which he thought he would be fouled but wasn't so it is a turn over. He makes this decision too many times and it hurts us. It is as if he takes too much onto his shoulders at crunch time. He doesn't seem to just think to himself "Dribble around, move, draw the double team as I drive into the lane and kick it out to J-Rich or Crash" Too often, he feels he has to take the shot and either make it or get fouled.

Last night, I saw Ty Lawson making a few of the exact same mistakes. They had fought their way back from 28 down to within 4. With 8 minutes left, they were in the game. Then, I see Lawson make a few decisions which to me reminded me of Ray's decision making down the stretch in tight games. Turning the ball over, bad shot, driving into fthe middle with one of those giant 7 footers and getting the ball rejected. (Dude, you're only 5-11 and they are a foot taller than you)

Now, in the past I have been hard on Ray and questioned his effectiveness at the PG. I have come to believe that he can handle the position, and feel comfortable with him as our starting PG - unless we can get Derrick Rose. But when I see the similarities of both Ray and Ty in their game play, decision making and in their flaws, I am wondering if this is not something fundamental being taught or over looked at the College level. Roy Williams is a brilliant Coach, but even great ones are not perfect. (Wooden comes closest) I wonder if there is an issue in the way that they help mold the decision making of their PGs in crunch time? I mean, Ray and Ty have been his 2 main PGs in his tenure at UNC, and their play, their game, and their flaws seem to be very very similar.

[Slam]

100% agree.

Felts is best when he plays within himself and lets the game come to him rather than force the issue. I understand he is a fearce competitor and he wants to do everything he can to get the team a win, but when he is in that mind set he is no better than Crash taking on teams 1-5.

As soon as Felts starts to force the issue, you start to see the offensive fouls, the loose handles, the silly passes, the bad shot selection etc. Maybe that is why he's a better combo guard off the bench? Maybe he doesn't have it in him to hold himself back or control a game because he gets ahead of himself?

In saying that, he has shown glimpses of being a fantastic point guard with great creativity, passing, decision making and scoring (mailing going to the hole). Plus, he's still young and we all know how much of a hard worker he is and how much he cares (two traits that make me like him).

Of course, at his current rate, he's working himself into a 5 year 30 million dollar contract and if we could get him for that sort of deal I would be very happy.

[ohara831]

If we get him for $5-6 mil/yr, that would be awesome. That way, should we end up coming across another young PG who challenges him for the starting position, we are not overly invested to where the decision would be cutting our financial throats.

[spectre]

One of the main things a "combo guard" should be able to do is shoot.  He also should be able to match up against opposing SGs without being a liability...two things Felts really can't do with regularity.

Felts had 8 assists by the half last night and he did it with a lot of very good passes (one a blistering pass from the top of the key to an open Mek for the layup).  That's a point guard.

The comparison with Lawson is sound, and Williams probably does warrant some "blame" for this.  His plan is to always push the ball and force the offense, make something happen.  I think the idiot tells Felts to do that too, esp. when we're down, the other team has stepped up it's D and we're struggling.  Felton is the only player besides Boykins who can do that (and Boykins' size hurts him), so the idiot more than likely tries to take that route in desperation.

He's gotten better with "poise" during most of the game, but he does somewhat lose it in these situations.  He did play a vital role vs. the Raps the other night though...scoring 14 points in the 4th...so he does have the ability.

Maybe we should lock him in at PG for a whole season and see if he can get better at that too?

I know...crazy thought.

So far as locking Felts up contract wise I still think Vincent's future with the Bobcats will directly relate to our success or failure in getting a deal done.  If Vincent is still here I imagine he will go the same route Mek took.  If not I'd guess 6 to 7 million on average.

[MattD]

I say it every night. Felton trys to do too much. He is good, but his shooting is ish, some nights very nice, and he doesnt make good decisions on when to defer to Jrich or someone else.

But heres the thing that jumps out at me. Every night, post game interview, he always talks about how much he wants to be the leader, the floor general etc. He is forcing this way too much in my opinion. In order to be that guy you have to fill in the role that the leader plays not force the issue.

That leads me to think two things:

A. He overvalues himself and will not resign for south of 8 or 9 million (I think a high possibility)

B. He would not be happy if say we brought in a Derrick Rose or DJ Augustine who challeneges his role (and probably beats him out). Hopefully in that case we dont get into the two point guard lineup cause that sucks. Ray off the bench might hurt chemistry as I think his attitude is above.

Sooo... we need to be careful before we sign him to a damning contract which forces him to be starting pg or else he makes life unpleasant. We dont need another okafor.

Felton is a very good player, he is lightning fast and has a great layup, but his vision and decisions are not as strong, and he still trys to do too much. It will be interesting to see where management goes/how we fall in the draft.

[ohara831]

Well said, Matt. Others have said, as have I, that Ray is more deserving of about $6 mil/yr. That way, if we end up coming across a PG who beats Ray out for the starting PG spot, we are not hurting ourselves by having him come off the bench or using him for trade bait. I think if we start getting up into the $8-9 mil Contract, we are cutting our own throats. First, because we cannot pay him that much to come off the bench IF someone beats him out for the job, and second, that much $ for a middle of the road PG will not be very enticing if we wanted to trade an unhappy Ray.

I say let's see where the ping pong balls fall and where we are picking. Hey, if luck has it that we get in the top 2, we may have Rose fall in our laps. And if that happens, Ray's starting job is as good as gone half way through the season if not from Game #1. There are a lot of options which will open up depending on where we finish the yr and what happens with the ping pong balls.

[Dead_Real]

Maybe we should lock him in at PG for a whole season and see if he can get better at that too?

I know...crazy thought.

Exactly what I was thinking honestly it's crazy that he's yet to play a entire NBA season without having to worry about playing the two. With JSwish and Hammer on this squad you would think that wouldn't be an issue. I remember someone on here or realGM can't remember which brought up a very interesting scouting report that said something along the lines of under a good coach that runs a uptempo system Felton could be one of the top PG's that came out of the 05 draft but in the wrong system he just might be average. Give Felton a FULL year running the point under a coach like Larry Brown or hell even Silas and I don't doubt for a minute he wouldn't be in the running for for most improved player next season just my two cents on this topic.

[Slam]

I remember someone on here or realGM can't remember which brought up a very interesting scouting report that said something along the lines of under a good coach that runs a uptempo system Felton could be one of the top PG's that came out of the 05 draft but in the wrong system he just might be average

----------------------------

Who ever wrote that has no idea what they are talking about and is obviously biased towards European players.

;)

[Dead_Real]

Check it out for yourself
www.draftexpress.com/profile/Raymond-Felton-5/

He brings up some valid points that I do agree that with a real coach who has a system in play and a full season gaining experience at the point like Spectre said Felts could breakout by putting up comparable stats to his 05 counter parts. He's shown the potential we all hoped for after we finally waived Jeff that he can give us double digit points and assists numbers a full year with the two above mentioned things would only make him better IMHO.

[MattD]

I still dont think that that will change the fact, that because he is the leader that they talk about, he will try to do too much. I like the trade I just threw up in the trade thoughts section.

[dnbman]

Check it out for yourself
www.draftexpress.com/profile/Raymond-Felton-5/

He brings up some valid points that I do agree that with a real coach who has a system in play and a full season gaining experience at the point like Spectre said Felts could breakout by putting up comparable stats to his 05 counter parts. He's shown the potential we all hoped for after we finally waived Jeff that he can give us double digit points and assists numbers a full year with the two above mentioned things would only make him better IMHO.


I think it's hysterical that this review foresaw what we've all been saying all along and have witnessed time and time again: Felton's great ability when the right system is intact.

With a quality coach, Felton will be a top 5 point guard in the league, especially when Kidd and Nash start to drastically decline. I just hope he does so while a Bobcat.

[MattD]

With a quality coach, Felton will be a top 5 point guard in the league, especially when Kidd and Nash start to drastically decline. I just hope he does so while a Bobcat.


That I think, is a stretch. Felton is good, but poor decision making and court vision will always hurt him

[spectre]

Who ever wrote that has no idea what they are talking about and is obviously biased towards European players.

;)


It's just too easy isn't it?   :biggrin:

You guys will get what's so funny in a bit.


That I think, is a stretch.  Felton is good, but poor decision making and court vision will always hurt him

Don't you think that'll get better with experience so far as decision making?  I think his court vision is pretty good; it's more knowing when to take the risky chance and when not to.

[dnbman]

That I think, is a stretch. Felton is good, but poor decision making and court vision will always hurt him

Don't you think that'll get better with experience so far as decision making? I think his court vision is pretty good; it's more knowing when to take the risky chance and when not to.


Exactly. I can have supervision, but if there's nothing opening up, there's nothing opening up. He demonstrates good vision on a nightly basis. He just tries to force the issue too much, which I can't really blame him since Carroll and Dudley are the only guys that do much of anything off the ball. Most of our guys find there place and then look at Felton and waive there hands with a man on their back.

This is what I think Felton can and must do to improve his game:

1. Keep his head up. When he plays with his head up, he does a fine job of looking for teammates. However, he tends to do this chin-to-chest thing, as if he's trying to fake out his defender, which leads me to the second thing:

2. Play solid basketball rather than gimicky basketball. Too often, he does these weird little things-- chin-to-chest, pointless fakes, etc.-- that don't really make much of a difference in the play. That's one of the biggest things I like about Paul is he just plays a regular looking game that ends up being spectacular.

3. Play in all gears. Once he makes his first step around a defender, he rarely changes gears. Consequently, he has to force a shot or a pass or he runs out of real estate. If he was more in control of his speed, which I think he will be, he'll vastly improve his game.

4. Hire his UNC shot coach. He vastly improved his shot each year at UNC. Whatever that guy told him, he needs to practice. He has the ability to be a good shooter. However, his form isn't consistent enough, leading to shots that look bad straight from the release. Last night, he looked like he was rolling his shooting hand over, putting a sideways rotation on the ball.

To me, if he does those things, which are all doable, he'll be a much better player. If we don't find a good coach for him here, we need to trade him though. I have to admit, I love the guy. But, I'd rather trade him than continue to use him the way he's been used these last two years.

[chabber]

Who ever wrote that has no idea what they are talking about and is obviously biased towards European players.

;)


It's just too easy isn't it? :biggrin:

You guys will get what's so funny in a bit.


Calling all users with stretched alien heads as avatars!!

[Slam]

Calling all users with stretched alien heads as avatars!!
--------------------------

Calling all users with stretched alien heads as avatars and a serious hate for any prospect who is high flying with very little substance!!

:biggrin: :D :P

[chabber]

You talking bout Carney again slam??? :biggrin:

[TheBeagle]

As I've said long before I even became a denizen of Bobcatsplanet, and more than a few times since then, UNC PGs are system PGs, much like many college QBs a la Ty Detmer, David Klinger, Andre Ware, etc. Going back to Dean Smith, maybe even Frank McGuire, the PG is the key to the team in terms of getting the offense going, and being the extension of the coach on the floor. Rarely does UNC expect their PG to be scorers, most notably pre-Roy; they feed the interior and run the offense, and if an open lane or open jumper provides itself, they'll take it. Just look at a small sample of starting PGs to come out of UNC since '82: Jimmy Black, Kenny Smith, Ranzino Smith, Jeff Lebo (combo guard, really, but was pure PG his senior year), King Rice, Derrick Phelps, Jeff McInnis, Ed Cota, Ronald Curry, Adam Boone, Raymond Felton, Bobby Frasor, Ty Lawson, (and Larry Drew Jr. will be next year, depending on Lawson). Please let me know if I left off anyone, but this list is pretty much it. Since '82, and even before that, UNC has been one of the most successful programs ever in terms of winning percentage, and yet, you look at that list, and how many NBA starters do you see? In fact, how many guys who made it to the NBA do you see? The Jet, Jeff, and Raymond is it. The Jet was a very solid 10 year or so player, who won 2 championships with the Rockets. Jeff was Jeff. And the verdict is still out on Raymond, those he's proven to be more than adequate as a starting PG. (Interestingly enough, the Jet was on the brink of being a marginal NBA role player after playing in Sacramento and Atlanta, until he was picked up by the Rockets, and he found his niche. Makes you wonder what Raymond could do if he went elsewhere.)

In essense, this crash course in UNC PGs the last 25+ years is only to illustrate that either UNC ruins its PG recruits NBA chances because of their system, or UNC recruits PGs that will fit it system, regardless of their NBA potential. They might be two sides of the same coin, I'm honestly not sure, and as a amateur Tar Heel historian, it's something I've thought about quite a bit. King Rice was a very higly regarded recruit coming out of NY: was it the system that did him in, or was he just not NBA material from the beginning. If any of you even remember him, it appeared to be the latter, but who knows. Admittedly, Curry split time as QB for the football team, which didn't help his progress much, but if you remeber seeing him play, there was no way he looked like the national player of the year coming out of high school, which he was awarded coming out of Hampton, VA.

Maybe one of the most telling anecdotes about UNC and its PGs has to do with Kenny Anderson. Anderson, a member of the class of '89, was the key target of many schools, and Coach Smith was at the head of the line, and he put all his apples in the Anderson cart (so much so that he wouldn't give Bobby Hurley, who desperately wanted to play at Carolina, any guarantee of a scholarship, so he chose Duke...thank god!!!). It seemed to be destined that Anderson would be a Tar Heel because he went to the same high school in NY that Kenny "Jet" Smith went to, and their school uniforms were Carolina blue. Well, it didn't happen; Anderson picked Ga. Tech over UNC because he was guaranteed a starting job, and would have free reign to do whatever he wanted on the court under Bobby Cremins, which would never have happened at UNC under Coach Smith. While Kenny Anderson never lived up to his potential in the NBA, it's noteworthy that he chose GT over UNC because they gave him a better chance to showcase his skills for the NBA.

All in all, there is a tenuous at best relationship between UNC PGs and the NBA, and because of its repetition over the years, I have to think it's not a coincidence, and I think a similar fate awaits Ty Lawson. For all his speed, decent range, and ability to feed the post, at this point in time, he is a downgrade from Raymond. Raymond has more size both in height and bulk (though Lawson is definitely strong), and he is a more consistent and even mature floor general...comparing their Carolina careers thus far. To be honest, I would be shocked if Tywon is a lottery pick should he enter this year, or maybe any year. So to answer the thread: Raymond was the superior college player in the same system, and I believe he will be the superior NBA player as well, though I hope they both become perennial All Stars!

**********
I just realized how damn long this post was, and assume it was a subconscious way of dealing with the Heels loss last night. As always, thank you my fellow Bobcatsplanet folk, for giving me a place to work out my issues :biggrin:

[ohara831]

+1 Beagle. That was an awesome historical perspective and analysis. I would have had to research all weekend for that material.

Beagle: I just had a brain lapse. It's 5:45 am so give me a little break. Cannot remember if I hit the button to bump the Rep up +1. If I did not, say so and I will do it right this time. If I did, great, as it was well deserved with that post.

[Slam]

You talking bout Carney again slam???

--------------

LOL!

[TheBeagle]

+1 Beagle. That was an awesome historical perspective and analysis. I would have had to research all weekend for that material.

Beagle: I just had a brain lapse. It's 5:45 am so give me a little break. Cannot remember if I hit the button to bump the Rep up +1. If I did not, say so and I will do it right this time. If I did, great, as it was well deserved with that post.

Thanks, ohara. It looks like you did it right. I'm enough of a sports dork that I really get a kick out of talking about players from my childhood, like Kenny Smith, for example. Here's a quick story about how cool a guy he is, or at least was:

After the '87 season, I was either 6 of 7, and the ACC had a senior All Star game at the Winston Salem coliseum, before the Lawerence Joel VM coliseum, where all the seniors from the ACC schools, plus a few other ex-ACC players like Phil Ford and Tom Burleson played in a fun exhibition game. After the game, everybody went down on the floor to get autographs from the players, and I really wanted Kenny Smith's auto, but he was absolutely getting mobbed by other people. So I just sort of moped around and happened on Horace Grant of all people, who I didn't even know at the time. So I got his auto and was ready to leave, but I couldn't find my uncle or cousins who I rode with, so I start yelling out for them, and get panicky and start whining and crying thinking they've left me, so I'm wiping away tears, and thinking I'm never going to get home again (melodramatic, huh?) when all of a sudden Kenny comes running down the court towards me, puts his arm around me, and takes me aside, away from the mob, and asks me what's wrong, what he can do to help, and the only thing I can think to do is put the basketball that I brought to get autographs in his face. I can't remeber what he said while he was signing the ball, but he got me laughing and I forgot all about being lost. I mean I'm sitting there hanging out with a frickin' All American!!!; my favorite player!!!! When we go back out, he put his arm back around me to try to protect me from the mob, but I'm jostled around, and spit out, and right back to my uncle and cousins waiting on me. It was one of the coolest moments in my life.

While I'm on a role I'll drop this one real quick: the year before in '86, we went to the same ACC all star game. My older cousin was a huge Len Bias fan, plus he was battling leukemia at the time. Thanks to some nice people, like Len, we were able to meet him after the game. I was too young to know that much about him; I just knew my cousin worshipped him, and so he must be good, since I looked up to my older cousin. He gave us his auto, shook our hands, and told my cousin he was going to beat leukemia and end up playing in the NBA with him (I was told this is what he said, but I was just too young to remember that much). Good news: my cousin kicked leukemia's ass; Bad news: you know what happened to Lenny. Even though I was 5 or 6, I'll never forget the shock of when I found out he died after being drafted by the Celtics (my couisn's favorite NBA team). I thought my mom was joking with me, but she showed me the news article and the words "Bias" and "dead" in bold. I'm not ashamed to say I cried for a while over that one. Such a good guy, just so damn careless at the wrong time...Man, that one's going to always stick with me....

[ohara831]

Beagle:

When I get in conversations with people about college players of the past, often we start talking about the best players we ever saw in College. Being an ACC man, I have a lot from which to choose. But I swear to God above, I don't believe I can say enough times, I believe that Len Bias was the most dominant and gifted player I ever saw in the ACC - bar none. I cried like a baby when I heard of his death, and I was abut to turn 21 in a couple weeks. Such a tragedy. I believe he would have accomplished wonders in the NBA. And his death set the Boston Celtics back for years. He ws just what that team needed in the late 80's, and they could not find a replacement for a long long time.

Len did it all year long. But the greatest memory is from the Tourney. The ACC Tourney makes legends. And I will never remember one any more vividly than watching him absolutely take on a magnificient UNC team and basically take them on 1 vs 5, and beat them. Anyone who saw that game can probably remember it like yesterday. That UNC team had how many players that went on to really good Pro careers?Well, actually just 2 - Brad D and The Jet. I thought there was a 3rd, but I was mistaken. But that UNC team was great. And he just whipped them. Greatest performance I can remember, not just because of his stats, but because of the level of competition he did it against. And when you hear some of those ex-UNC players now talking about College days, and they start talking about Len Bias, you can see the level of respect they have for his ability. They just shake their heads and say "he was unbelievable, he was just a force we could not stop". And then you can see the sadness in their eyes as they follow it up with "and then he died, and it was one of the greatest tragedies in college sports."

I know many will say there were others better, and they have good arguments. David Thompson was one of the greatest, no doubt about it. Some Va fans still think if you speak only of College careers, you have to say Ralph Sampson. I know there were greats over the years. But for my money, I say Len Bias was the greatest player to have played ACC basketball - ever.

God Rest His Soul.

[TheBeagle]

But the greatest memory is from the Tourney. The ACC Tourney makes legends. And I will never remember one any more vividly than watching him absolutely take on a magnificient UNC team and basically take them on 1 vs 5, and beat them. Anyone who saw that game can probably remember it like yesterday. That UNC team had how many players that went on to really good Pro careers?Well, actually just 2 - Brad D and The Jet. I thought there was a 3rd, but I was mistaken. But that UNC team was great. And he just whipped them. Greatest performance I can remember, not just because of his stats, but because of the level of competition he did it against.
Yeah. My dad was fortunate, or maybe unfortunate since we're a Tar Heel family, enough to go that first round game, as he's told me about it a handful of times. From what he told me, he absolutely owned the Heels, Daugherty in particular, whom he out-fought, out-hustled, out-everthing. Bring up Daugherty anytime and you'll see this look come over my dad's face. Didn't Bias throw and inbounds pass of Daugherty's ass and dunk it once? Or was it someone else? I'm pretty sure it was against Maryland though. Anyway, yeah, Lefty was never happier going up against Dean than when he had Len.

[ReesieNCPantherCatfan1]

Beagle,
Since we are taking a look back, I have a similar story of those ACC all star games. A friend of the family was a manager at Belk in Hickory, and they were a sponsor for the ACC all star challenge. Belk was supposed to have a contest to choose the ballboys for the game, but he knew I was a big hoops fan (yes UNC, o'hara :)if you couldn't tell), and he let me be the ballboy for the games at Lenoir Ryhne college in Hickory from 1990-1993. As the ballboy I got to meet many ACC studs like Fire and Ice (Chris Corchiani and Rodney Monroe from State), Grant Hill, Christian Laettner, Elden Campbell, etc. I think it was the graduating seniors of the ACC, but with the exception of UNC seniors which killed me (i think maybe they had exams that week, though I did get to meet George Lynch, King Rice and Rick Fox)

Intersting story from the 1992 (I think) all star event. In addition to the game they had a dunk contest (Grant Hill was ridiculous) and 3 point contest as well. Christian Laettner and some guy from the NAIA (or whatever conference LR plays in) were in the final for the 3 point contest. Brian Davis was helping rebound for Laettner (they didn't have enough racks for the balls like the NBA contest) Anyway the other guy in the finals went first, and had a good round, and then Laettner was up. He was having almost as good of a round as the NAIA guy and the final round is almost up. Laettner is one shot from tying the contest, and he fumbles the pass from Brian Davis and the buzzer sounds with Laettner not getting a shot off. Laettner then curses, fires the ball at Davis, hits him in the back, and basically just came off as a real prick. I still got their autographs, but that image always stuck with me. A few years later it gave me a smile when I heard Stackhouse punched Laettner on the team plane when they were with teammates with the Pistons.

Even if I didn't get to meet some of my idols like Hubert Davis, Donald Williams, and Eric Montross, it was still fun to see all these guys I watched on Raycom. All in all it was definately a highlight of my young sports life (I think I was 13 at the first game) and pretty cool to meet many of the ACC's best during this period.

[TheBeagle]

That's right, Reesie, it was called the ACC AllStar Challenge! I was wondering if they did away with those completely because I don't remember one after '87, so it's nice to see they kept it up at least a few more years. I swear that was fun, wasn't it? And how cool were the players to agree to do that? That sucks that you didn't get to meet Hubert, Donald, and Eric, though. I'm trying to think: my list of favorite players went first, Kenny Smith, then Ranzino Smith, then Scott Williams, then Hubert, and so on. Hubes absolutely carried that '92 team, which was kind of like a transition team between the Rice, Fox, Chilcutt class of '91, and the Lynch-led Heels of '93 with more experienced play from the juniors: Montross, Phelps, and Reese....and of course Donald's magic year.