Another Rumor: Ammo & 9 for TWolves' 3

[dnbman]

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/54981

Wow. If we got the three, do we go Mayo? What are the chances of Miami actually taking Mayo 2nd? I think none. Walking away from this draft with Beasley and only losing Ammo would be sick.

Who do you think our target is though if Beasley and Rose (almost certainly) are gone?

Mayo and Love?

BTW... this makes sense because Minnesota could take Lopez at 9 (who they really need) while gaining Ammo, a perimeter scorer to pair with those two.

[Jonathanmartin7]

that's who I take, mayo. I just think this trade is about as likely as Orlando trading us D.Howard for our 2nd round pick.

[Keetch]

This HAS to be too good to be true. But just for fun...if it did happen; its probably a simple trade with Miami to get to #2 and Beasley. Let the Heat have Mayo.

[Slam]

Like I said in the other thread:

IF this trade went down (Ammo and the #9 for the #3), and it's a huge "if" because I doubt the Wolves would go with it, I would be forced to take back everything I have ever said about drafting Ammo and it setting us back 3+ years.

If he could move us into the top three this year and land us Mayo or Beasley then he would have done a whole lot for this franchise.

I would poop, toot, cry and fall over all at once if we traded Ammo and the #9 for Beasley, Rose or Mayo


that's who I take, mayo. I just think this trade is about as likely as Orlando trading us D.Howard for our 2nd round pick.

100% agree. If the Wolves didn't get a shit load of offers better than Ammo and the #9 for the #3 then I would be amazed.

Maybe we could add more, like a 2009 pick?

[ohara831]

I think it would take something far more significant, like Crash and #9 for #3. Problem is, that if we go Mayo, then we have no PF from this Draft. We'd be banking on May and Jermareo, and that doesn't make me feel good. If it was Beasley at #3, then we'd likely have to move up Carroll to the starting SG with J-Rich as SF, or J-Rich as SG and Dudley as SF. Trading Crash and #9 for #3 makes more sense for us if #3 is Beasley.

Slam, I saw where you went over to RGM to talk with the MINN fans about it. They definitely dont take to the trade too good with Ammo and #9. Wonder why?

[countryboi]

man there is no way minny is that dumb....we trade ammo who is pretty much a bum and get someone like mayo who could be the best player in the draft....this is a robbery...man i would laugh at this trade all the way to the playoffs

[dnbman]

I think it would take something far more significant, like Crash and #9 for #3.

I think you're VASTLY overrating the value the #3 pick. Mayo may be a great scorer, but he's had question marks all season. If Minnesota wants Lopez, they have to stay in the top 10-12 to get him. So, I'm not sure they can do a whole lot better than this trade and still get their guy.

From Minnesota's perspective, they'd get their coveted center, pay him a chunk of change less money, and get a potential scorer in Morrison. I think it's actually a pretty good deal for them.

Also, remember that picks have no value until after they are drafted. So Minnesota can't just trade the pick for a player unless other TWolves are going out.

Basically, this trade is not so far fetched, though I would be surprised if it happened also.

[Icky Thump]

I'd want Beasley... Mayo doesn't appear to give us much more than what we currently have with Crash. Beasley is a quicker impact player for us IMO. If we do this to get Mayo we also definitely have to trade Crash as well to get a quality post player.

[spectre]

Like I said in the other thread:

IF this trade went down (Ammo and the #9 for the #3), and it's a huge "if" because I doubt the Wolves would go with it, I would be forced to take back everything I have ever said about drafting Ammo and it setting us back 3+ years.

If he could move us into the top three this year and land us Mayo or Beasley then he would have done a whole lot for this franchise.

I would poop, toot, cry and fall over all at once if we traded Ammo and the #9 for Beasley, Rose or Mayo



100% agree. If the Wolves didn't get a shit load of offers better than Ammo and the #9 for the #3 then I would be amazed.

Maybe we could add more, like a 2009 pick?

I just got in and saw this rumor...I'm pretty shocked. Here I sit with this big shit eating grin on my face while knowing there's no way in hell this could ever happen.

But for just one little moment I'm going to ignore that and imagine it's true.

[Wallace15]

I don't think there's a chance in hell this trade would ever happen, but IF it did then WOW! I'd pray to God that Chicago took Rose and Miami took Mayo so we'd get Beasley.

[MattD]

Think though what Minnesota really wants. They want Brook Lopez. No one else wants him. Why not rather then picking him at 3, get someone else and lopez, its a win win for them.

That is why i could see it going down.

Please god

[mrtarheel]

the reason this happens is that we end up taking antoine walker and his contract along with the pick. We then have to trade wallace seeing that we need a pf and some cap space to the bucks for charlie v and their #8 where we then take westbrook. With that done we send a walker to anybody for anything serviceable as a backup. Minn unloads Walker, gets a shooter and a big all in the first 9 picks in the draft. Now who is getting the better of the deal. Both teams get better, younger and cap space.

[dnbman]

the reason this happens is that we end up taking antoine walker and his contract along with the pick. We then have to trade wallace seeing that we need a pf and some cap space to the bucks for charlie v and their #8 where we then take westbrook. With that done we send a walker to anybody for anything serviceable as a backup. Minn unloads Walker, gets a shooter and a big all in the first 9 picks in the draft. Now who is getting the better of the deal. Both teams get better, younger and cap space.

That's pretty complicated. The reason Minneapolis does it is to pay the pick they want (Lopez) less money and pick up another player. I'm also guessing the only way this trade goes down is if both teams make the pick and then trade, not simply trading picks. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a low priced player coming our way to balance it out.

[ohara831]

the reason this happens is that we end up taking antoine walker and his contract along with the pick. We then have to trade wallace seeing that we need a pf and some cap space to the bucks for charlie v and their #8 where we then take westbrook. With that done we send a walker to anybody for anything serviceable as a backup. Minn unloads Walker, gets a shooter and a big all in the first 9 picks in the draft. Now who is getting the better of the deal. Both teams get better, younger and cap space.

__________________________________________________ __________________________

OK. So you say we lose Crash and Ammo, but gain Beasley or Mayo, gain Westbrook and gain Charlie V. I'd be for that if we get Mayo at #3, but if Beasley, then we really dont need Charlie V. I'd rather it be someone else b/c we'd then have Beasley, Charlie V, May and Jermareo all at PF. But if we then were free to make a smaller change later with our #38 and throw in May and Jermareo, we could move up and grab someone like Kyle Weaver with our 2nd rounder.

[Slam]

I just got in and saw this rumor...I'm pretty shocked. Here I sit with this big shit eating grin on my face while knowing there's no way in hell this could ever happen.

But for just one little moment I'm going to ignore that and imagine it's true.

Amen brother!! And while we are riding that train, lets trade Crash for Boozer too!!

Felts - Juice - Swish - Booz - EO50 = deep playoff run year #1, aim for the rings year #2.

[Slam]

I think you're VASTLY overrating the value the #3 pick. Mayo may be a great scorer, but he's had question marks all season. If Minnesota wants Lopez, they have to stay in the top 10-12 to get him. So, I'm not sure they can do a whole lot better than this trade and still get their guy.

The problem would be the 6 teams above us who could offer them a higher draft pick and probably a player who isn't just coming off not only a season ending injury but also a rookie campaign that ranked him amongst the worst players in the entire NBA.

[dnbman]

The problem would be the 6 teams above us who could offer them a higher draft pick and probably a player who isn't just coming off not only a season ending injury but also a rookie campaign that ranked him amongst the worst players in the entire NBA.

Yes, but:

1. How much are teams going to give up just to move up a few spots in this draft? It seems most of the teams in the top 8 have a couple of guys they're pretty happy to take. Is Mayo (or Love?) that highly desired that a team would give up a quality player?

2. Morrison might have been one of the last in terms of PER or some other random statistic. However, he still showed he could have big games. Plus, the first couple of years are not good predictors of overall talent. Minnesota may think they're adding a potential significant shooter plus the C they want.

3. The lower Lopez drops, the less Minnesota is obligated to pay him. They could save them a few million dollars over the life of his rookie contract. However, he's not going to fall much lower than us. So, it makes sense to target us as a trading partner.

Honestly, I think most of the league thinks more of Morrison than most Bobcat fans (outside of Morrison homers.) We saw all of the games where he didn't show up and looked lost. They saw a few games where he scored 20 or so points and that he averaged a dozen, which isn't bad for a rookie. I could see this going through.

[Slam]

Yes, but:

1. How much are teams going to give up just to move up a few spots in this draft? It seems most of the teams in the top 8 have a couple of guys they're pretty happy to take. Is Mayo (or Love?) that highly desired that a team would give up a quality player?

2. Morrison might have been one of the last in terms of PER or some other random statistic. However, he still showed he could have big games. Plus, the first couple of years are not good predictors of overall talent. Minnesota may think they're adding a potential significant shooter plus the C they want.

3. The lower Lopez drops, the less Minnesota is obligated to pay him. They could save them a few million dollars over the life of his rookie contract. However, he's not going to fall much lower than us. So, it makes sense to target us as a trading partner.

Honestly, I think most of the league thinks more of Morrison than most Bobcat fans (outside of Morrison homers.) We saw all of the games where he didn't show up and looked lost. They saw a few games where he scored 20 or so points and that he averaged a dozen, which isn't bad for a rookie. I could see this going through.

1. Top of my head - I would suggest that the Clipps would move up for sure if it got them Mayo. I wonder if the Knicks would move up (although with Crawford already there I don't see the fit). Keep in mind you mentioned teams wouldn't be willing to give up a quality player. Crash is a quality player. EO50 is a quality player. Swish is a quality player. I wouldn't rate Ammo as a quality player.

2. Ammo makes the Corey Brewer pick questionable - if they would plan to start Ammo at the 3. In saying that, Ammo might be good for them because he would give them a shooter to spread the floor for Al.

3. Good point. I just think that if a team above us think that they could draft Lopez and them flip him for the #3 pick they would do it.

I think the rest of the leauge knows exactly where Ammo is at. And to make it worse, he's coming off a very serious knee injury. If he had have played last season and shown something then I would say the trade would make sense, but as it stands, I think the Wolves would be getting hosed...................but I would be MORE than ok with that!!

[spectre]

Which was one of the few teams Ammo smoked in their house?

Minnesota. And he did it right impressively too...didn't he put up like 26 points in the 2nd half?

Remember a couple years back when CV was on the Raps, he had one monstor game against the Bucks...the Bucks then overpay by trading Ford for him. This isn't totally out of the realm I don't think.

Hopefully Bird still thinks Ammo his 2nd coming, and hopefully McHale pays attention to everything he says. Everyone could see he was badly misused by the coaching staff, so maybe he's not as devalued as we've all thought?

Minny wants YOUNG players on rookie deals. Like DNB said nobody's taking Lopez before 9th, and we might just have enough wiggle room capwise to take a little more. Even if it's Antoine he's an expiring.

I know I'm rationalizing all out here, but dang this would make for the most killer offseason ever!!!

Slam...what if Beasley fell? Right there we'd be set with 5 starters, with one being a sick midrange scorer go to guy! Of course I wouldn't be sad one bit if it was Mayo (LOL!!! I can't even type that with a straight face!)

[Slam]

Which was one of the few teams Ammo smoked in their house?

Minnesota. And he did it right impressively too...didn't he put up like 26 points in the 2nd half?

(just to walk down memory lane):

GET THE BALL TO AMMO - HE'S MY BOY!!

;)


Minny wants YOUNG players on rookie deals

I thought their fans were saying they didn't want to get any younger by bringing in picks or rookies with potential? I thought they wanted NBA ready players?


Like DNB said nobody's taking Lopez before 9th

They might if they know they can flip him for the 3rd overall pick.


Slam...what if Beasley fell? Right there we'd be set with 5 starters, with one being a sick midrange scorer go to guy! Of course I wouldn't be sad one bit if it was Mayo (LOL!!! I can't even type that with a straight face!)

If we landed Beasley at #3 and could roll out a starting 5 of Felts, Swish, Crash, Beasley and EO50 I would be thrilled. 100% over the top thrilled.


I don't mean to piss on this parade. I would LOVE for this to happen as much, if not more, than most of you guys. I just don't see it going down.

[dnbman]

Slam...what if Beasley fell?

I don't think the deal happens if Beasley falls. The trade would have to be done after the picks are made to make the money work, unless, of course, we are taking an Ammo like contract back.

If Beasley falls, I think Minnesota holds on to him or trades to someone else for more significant talent.

Slam, if another team picks Lopez, Minnesota could call their bluff. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Minnesota actually picks Love 3rd, keeping another big to pair with Jefferson if Lopez some how jumped back up the board.

That would give us our PF that we need to pair with Okafor at C, which also assumes that our staff does actually see Okafor as a C rather than the PF that the sport writers are claiming.

(BTW... didn't mean to rain on the Mayo parade, but I think that's how this could unfold.)

Slam, also... what would the Knicks and Clippers give up? Livingston? I think they're both content to take one of the players available at their pick and, again, pay them less.

[Muttley]

The contract that seems like the best fit for us to get back is Greg Buckner. This benefits Minnesota in that Adam is younger and potentially a lot better. Essentially an upgrade of the position for them. Also, and I'll now admit that I could be entirely wrong about the contract stuff, but after this year, Adam's contract will have a team option. So, he could conceivably be an expiring contract after this year if he's not working out even though he'll cost Minnesota a little more.

[dnbman]

The contract that seems like the best fit for us to get back is Greg Buckner. This benefits Minnesota in that Adam is younger and potentially a lot better. Essentially an upgrade of the position for them. Also, and I'll now admit that I could be entirely wrong about the contract stuff, but after this year, Adam's contract will have a team option. So, he could conceivably be an expiring contract after this year if he's not working out even though he'll cost Minnesota a little more.

I was thinking Buckner to. Isn't he a pretty good wing defender?

I just don't know if that gains anything for Minnesota though. We may be looking at Mark Madsen and the difference between the 3rd and 9th pick's 1st year contracts.

[Muttley]

I was thinking Buckner to. Isn't he a pretty good wing defender?

I just don't know if that gains anything for Minnesota though. We may be looking at Mark Madsen and the difference between the 3rd and 9th pick's 1st year contracts.

So, it'd be

Madsen/Mayo (or Beasley - yeah, no way that happens.)

for

Ammo/Lopez

Still feels like thievery to me. Just like everyone, I'd jump on it in a second, but let's face it folks, we're just not that lucky.

[countryboi]

So, it's be

Madsen/Mayo (or Beasley - yeah, no way that happens.)

for

Ammo/Lopez

Still feels like thievery to me. Just like everyone, I'd jump on it in a second, but let's face it folks, we're just not that lucky.

man only the lakers and boston get sweetheart deals like that....this deal couldnt be any worse if we had a pistol

[Slam]

Slam, if another team picks Lopez, Minnesota could call their bluff. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Minnesota actually picks Love 3rd, keeping another big to pair with Jefferson if Lopez some how jumped back up the board.

That would give us our PF that we need to pair with Okafor at C, which also assumes that our staff does actually see Okafor as a C rather than the PF that the sport writers are claiming.

(BTW... didn't mean to rain on the Mayo parade, but I think that's how this could unfold.)

Slam, also... what would the Knicks and Clippers give up? Livingston? I think they're both content to take one of the players available at their pick and, again, pay them less.

I hope that we wouldn't trade up for Love. I don't think he fits well with us. I'd only be interested if Beasley, Rose or Mayo could be had in the trade.

Knicks could offer Lee - who might fit what they would want Love for. They could offer M.Rose who expires after next season.

The Clipps could offer Livingston, future picks, or depending on how much they want the #3 pick, Thornton.

[dnbman]

I hope that we wouldn't trade up for Love. I don't think he fits well with us. I'd only be interested if Beasley, Rose or Mayo could be had in the trade.

What makes you say that? I don't know enough about him to have an opinion. I know we need a good rebounder and a guy we can run more of an inside/out offense through. He fits those bills.


Knicks could offer Lee - who might fit what they would want Love for. They could offer M.Rose who expires after next season.

The Clipps could offer Livingston, future picks, or depending on how much they want the #3 pick, Thornton.

They COULD and those would both be better deals. But, would either team do that for Mayo when they can get an arguably almost equal talent without giving up those guys? Lee and Thornton look to be great contributors to those clubs for the future.

If Beasley is available, I could see teams ramp up efforts. However, I don't think Beasley will fall. If anything, someone will give Miami a trade they can't refuse for him.

Just consider this: the lottery has been shifting almost daily for the last month. In the months before that, players were all over the place. I just don't think teams between 3 and 8 are going to do a whole lot to exchange picks. The deal with us is more of a way for Minnesota to pay less for their guy than to acquire another player.

[Slam]

The more I think about this rumor the more I hate it.

I hate it because it would be so good for us and I know it aint happening. I wish that it was never mentioned in that paper. It's almost cruel and unfair to even get our hopes up.

[dnbman]

The more I think about this rumor the more I hate it.

I hate it because it would be so good for us and I know it aint happening. I wish that it was never mentioned in that paper. It's almost cruel and unfair to even get our hopes up.

hehe... not only that, but it will surely become another infamous "we could have" trade that will be thrown around for years. Hopefully, what ever happens in the draft is the right thing.

[Slam]

What makes you say that? I don't know enough about him to have an opinion. I know we need a good rebounder and a guy we can run more of an inside/out offense through. He fits those bills. .

Because EO50 can't guard quicker PF's and Love wont have any more luck. He'd be perfect on offense and I love his hustle and work ethic but we would be exposed on D.


They COULD and those would both be better deals. But, would either team do that for Mayo when they can get an arguably almost equal talent without giving up those guys? Lee and Thornton look to be great contributors to those clubs for the future.

If Beasley is available, I could see teams ramp up efforts. However, I don't think Beasley will fall. If anything, someone will give Miami a trade they can't refuse for him. .

Mayo wouldn't be considered a lock for the 3rd overall pick if he was equal talent to someone like Bayless or Gordon for eg.


Just consider this: the lottery has been shifting almost daily for the last month. In the months before that, players were all over the place. I just don't think teams between 3 and 8 are going to do a whole lot to exchange picks. The deal with us is more of a way for Minnesota to pay less for their guy than to acquire another player.

This is a very valid point. I just think that if this was the way the Wolves wanted to go that someone above us would put together a better package than Ammo and the #9

[Slam]

hehe... not only that, but it will surely become another infamous "we could have" trade that will be thrown around for years. Hopefully, what ever happens in the draft is the right thing.
Our long list of "could of, should of, would have" continues to grow even longer!!

:(

[dnbman]

Because EO50 can't guard quicker PF's and Love wont have any more luck. He'd be perfect on offense and I love his hustle and work ethic but we would be exposed on D.

You don't think Love is more mobile than EO50? He seemed pretty quick in recent workouts and the combine.




Mayo wouldn't be considered a lock for the 3rd overall pick if he was equal talent to someone like Bayless or Gordon for eg.

But he hasn't been considered a lock for very long, and I'm not even sure he'd be considered a lock if Minnesota didn't send so many guys to go evaluate him. However, if he was the lock, why would they send so many guys? Wouldn't his talent stand out enough? I just wonder if the picks seem to be more concrete than they are simply because we're heading into the final week and everyone is saying they think they know how it's going to go. (And by everyone, I mean sports reporters)




This is a very valid point. I just think that if this was the way the Wolves wanted to go that someone above us would put together a better package than Ammo and the #9

One other thing about Ammo: he's an expiring contract that could be paired with Walker to net a $15M player at mid season. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[spectre]

GET THE BALL TO AMMO - HE'S MY BOY!!

OMG, I'd forgotten all about that! Still wear your jersey?


The more I think about this rumor the more I hate it.

I hate it because it would be so good for us and I know it aint happening. I wish that it was never mentioned in that paper. It's almost cruel and unfair to even get our hopes up.

Not me bud...for the first time since we've drafted him I've had one good evening where I let myself imagine that he'd actually be worth good value (sorry Ammo fans). Just for this giddy feeling I've had these last few hours I consider this well worth it.

Not only that, I'm going to hang onto it til Thursday!

Ammo has POTENTIAL! McHale can steal a diamond in the rough that's been misused and mistreated. He'd fit much better than another combo guard...he'll bring offense!!! Coming out of the draft with a 7 ft + big and a previous 3rd pick who could still be the great white hope would be a steal!!!

BTW, interesting the game Riley is playing down in MIA...is it all a bluff or is he being sincere? Regardless, I don't know that MINN would want Beasley with AlJeff at the 4 (I guess Beasley could play the 3?) A big C would make much more sense IMO.

[Slam]

You don't think Love is more mobile than EO50? He seemed pretty quick in recent workouts and the combine. .

Love isn't that athletic so guys like LMA, Bosh, Amare etc are likely to give him trouble.


But he hasn't been considered a lock for very long, and I'm not even sure he'd be considered a lock if Minnesota didn't send so many guys to go evaluate him. However, if he was the lock, why would they send so many guys? Wouldn't his talent stand out enough? I just wonder if the picks seem to be more concrete than they are simply because we're heading into the final week and everyone is saying they think they know how it's going to go. (And by everyone, I mean sports reporters) .

It's long been considered that Mayo has the most star talent and potential of anyone in the draft - including the big 2. Why would the Wolves send so many to look at him? Duty of care I would expect.


One other thing about Ammo: he's an expiring contract that could be paired with Walker to net a $15M player at mid season. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Again, this is true. Of course Walker paired with someone like M.Rose would give them a whole lot more.

[Slam]

OMG, I'd forgotten all about that! Still wear your jersey?

Only when I have a really dirty job to do around home and I don't care how dirty what I am wearing gets AND I know that no one will see me in it!!

:)

[dnbman]

Love isn't that athletic so guys like LMA, Bosh, Amare etc are likely to give him trouble.

True, but are we going to get a PF who is athletic enough to do a good job guarding those guys? There's a reason why those guys are standouts. We don't have to have an equalizing defender as long as we don't have a layup drill going on. I don't know if Love is that bad.

Maybe he his.




It's long been considered that Mayo has the most star talent and potential of anyone in the draft - including the big 2. Why would the Wolves send so many to look at him? Duty of care I would expect.

I think that's true in so far as people have been talking about him since high school. However, he took a pretty big plummet in the middle of the season and only in the last month did he pull back to a fairly consensus #3. However, being a consensus pick still doesn't mean you're that much better than the next guy. It just means most people think a team will pick you before another. Mayo definitely has the cult of personality going for him. But I don't know if many folks think his career will be that much better than Bayless or a few other guys. He drew a lot of question marks about his play this season.

[Slam]

True, but are we going to get a PF who is athletic enough to do a good job guarding those guys? There's a reason why those guys are standouts. We don't have to have an equalizing defender as long as we don't have a layup drill going on. I don't know if Love is that bad.

Maybe he his.

I think that's true in so far as people have been talking about him since high school. However, he took a pretty big plummet in the middle of the season and only in the last month did he pull back to a fairly consensus #3. However, being a consensus pick still doesn't mean you're that much better than the next guy. It just means most people think a team will pick you before another. Mayo definitely has the cult of personality going for him. But I don't know if many folks think his career will be that much better than Bayless or a few other guys. He drew a lot of question marks about his play this season.
Randolph appears to have the tools to be that sort of defender, as well as a versitile offsensive game - hence his attraction.

Mayo plays both ends. Someone like Bayless doesn't. That's what makes Mayo seem like the better, well rounded player over guys like Bayless, Gordon, Westbrook etc.

But who knows? When all is said and done, maybe those guys, and Ammo for that matter, has a better NBA career than Mayo?

It's always a crap shot, but all the indicators point towards Mayo being a super star - something we could really do with.

[Mustachio]

Its a pretty big gamble for McHale id say. Bring in a guy after a knee surgery and then draft Lopez at 9. thats two players who have bust potential. McHale is bad but is he that bad?

Id like this a lot more if it got us Beasley rather than Mayo. For some reason Mayo just doesn't seem like a good fit here. and i kind of feel like PF is a much bigger need than back up PG/SG. But if we got a guy with Mayo's upside and all it took was one of our current bench players...then id take it just to see what happened.

[kjk2241]

OMG, I'd forgotten all about that! Still wear your jersey?



Not me bud...for the first time since we've drafted him I've had one good evening where I let myself imagine that he'd actually be worth good value (sorry Ammo fans). Just for this giddy feeling I've had these last few hours I consider this well worth it.

Not only that, I'm going to hang onto it til Thursday!

Ammo has POTENTIAL! McHale can steal a diamond in the rough that's been misused and mistreated. He'd fit much better than another combo guard...he'll bring offense!!! Coming out of the draft with a 7 ft + big and a previous 3rd pick who could still be the great white hope would be a steal!!!

BTW, interesting the game Riley is playing down in MIA...is it all a bluff or is he being sincere? Regardless, I don't know that MINN would want Beasley with AlJeff at the 4 (I guess Beasley could play the 3?) A big C would make much more sense IMO.

All this talk about Ammo made me nostalgic...

http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.php?content=video&url=http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/nbacom/recaps/recap_806_chamin.asx&video=blank&nbasite=bobcats

To see more 06-07 games
http://www.nba.com/bobcats/video.html

[ammofan]

The game againest Minny was my favorite cats moment of all time...

[Slam]

The game againest Minny was my favorite cats moment of all time...

He was un-freaking-concious in that 3rd quarter. He could have had Pippen, Bowen, Bell, Artest and Payton all playing on him all at once and at the same time and he STILL would have lit them up.

It was amazing.

[Dead_Real]

The T-Wolves fans I've talked to wouldn't mind Crash and 9 for the 3rd pick since he's proven and they could still get a solid big to pair with Jefferson at 9 but they hate the Morrison deal. At 38 I'd just pray Dorsey, Hardin or Jawai fell to us if we made this move or move back up in the 1st round for Hibbert or Ajinca.

[dnbman]

The T-Wolves fans I've talked to wouldn't mind Crash and 9 for the 3rd pick since he's proven and they could still get a solid big to pair with Jefferson at 9 but they hate the Morrison deal.

I'm sure they'd love that Wallace deal. I'm sure most Bobcat fans would HATE it.

I think the TWolve trade is more of a business trade than a roster improvement trade, which is something the fans probably aren't interested in. So, I'm not surprised they don't like it. However, trading Wallace to switch picks would probably make me quit be a Bobcat fan.

[Dead_Real]

I'm sure they'd love that Wallace deal. I'm sure most Bobcat fans would HATE it.

I think the TWolve trade is more of a business trade than a roster improvement trade, which is something the fans probably aren't interested in. So, I'm not surprised they don't like it. However, trading Wallace to switch picks would probably make me quit be a Bobcat fan.
I'd love to do Crash for 3 straight up and be able to keep the 9 but the chances of that happening are slim. I would miss Wallace but if we could move up to 3 and snatch Mayo or Beasley if he falls Its worth giving him up IMO.

[Icky Thump]

The only way I'd really be ok trading Wallace and #9 for #3 is if Beasley is there. If we trade Wallace and #9 for Mayo we are still without the post player we need and no real value to get a Post player with...

[dnbman]

I'd love to do Crash for 3 straight up and be able to keep the 9 but the chances of that happening are slim. I would miss Wallace but if we could move up to 3 and snatch Mayo or Beasley if he falls Its worth giving him up IMO.

But Mayo may not even be as good as Wallace, let alone Wallace and whoever we'd pick. I doubt I'd even trade those two for Beasley unless we were getting a substantial role player in return (which we'd virtually have to for the contracts to work.)

I posted this a while back, but I want to reiterate: we have to be VERY careful about overvaluing rookies. Yeah, a single draft pick can turn a franchise around (Lebron, Paul, Howard), but those are few and far between. We don't want to haphazardly trade quality players for rookies unless it's a clear upgrade for our team, especially since we're not in rebuilding mode, but putting the last couple of pieces together mode.

[TheBeagle]

But Mayo may not even be as good as Wallace, let alone Wallace and whoever we'd pick. I doubt I'd even trade those two for Beasley unless we were getting a substantial role player in return (which we'd virtually have to for the contracts to work.)

I posted this a while back, but I want to reiterate: we have to be VERY careful about overvaluing rookies. Yeah, a single draft pick can turn a franchise around (Lebron, Paul, Howard), but those are few and far between. We don't want to haphazardly trade quality players for rookies unless it's a clear upgrade for our team, especially since we're not in rebuilding mode, but putting the last couple of pieces together mode.
REP! So many good points made in the post, no need for me to elaborate.

[Dead_Real]

But Mayo may not even be as good as Wallace, let alone Wallace and whoever we'd pick. I doubt I'd even trade those two for Beasley unless we were getting a substantial role player in return (which we'd virtually have to for the contracts to work.)

I posted this a while back, but I want to reiterate: we have to be VERY careful about overvaluing rookies. Yeah, a single draft pick can turn a franchise around (Lebron, Paul, Howard), but those are few and far between. We don't want to haphazardly trade quality players for rookies unless it's a clear upgrade for our team, especially since we're not in rebuilding mode, but putting the last couple of pieces together mode.
You got to take risk and in this case it's not that big of one like you saying it would be yea there is a SLIM chance Mayo or Beasley might not live up to the hype but I just can't see them not having a great impact on there respective squads or if they came here. It's sad but true but the chances of Wallace taking another blow to the head and his career getting cut short because of it are higher than Mayo or Beasley being added and us not being a much better squad. Mayo's handle and stroke put him over Wallace IMO and it's not a doubt in my mind Beasley will be a stud in the NBA.

[Keetch]

I agree that Beasley is worth the deal, but I don't think that Mayo is a lock for stardom, not at all. I'm not even sure he'll be that good. Would I take a chance on him with the 3rd pick, Yup. Would I trade Wallace for the right to do that? Nope. I completely agree that if we trade Wallace for Mayo we're losing a big asset to trade for a C/PF.

I'm trying to like Mayo but I just don't trust him. I keep seeing Stevie Franchise. If he ends up in Minny or Charlotte; he'll be making reservations for NY or LA on the first plane he can get. I hope I'm wrong.

The more I follow this draft and all the evaluations out there, I'm really becoming convinced that there are only a few can't misses...

Sure Bets:

Michael Beasley
Derrick Rose
Kevin Love

Likely to be very good:

OJ Mayo (ok ok)
Brook Lopez (yup! lol)
Joe Alexander
Danilo Gallinari
Brandon Rush

Semi-Solid Role Players - Possible Starters down the road

Russell Westbrook
Eric Gordon
Jerryd Bayless
DJ Augustin
Darrell Arthur
Alexis Ajinca

I'm gonna bust!

Anthony Randolph
DeAndre Jordan
Donte Greene
Roy Hibbert

[spectre]

Sure Bets:

Michael Beasley
Derrick Rose
Kevin Love

Really? Who do you think he's comparable to in the NBA? Granted I haven't seen much of him, but personally I'm more worried about him than I am Lopez...and I'm not high at all on him.

[Keetch]

LOL Spectre I'm not sure who to compare him to; I just think he's gonna be a star. He's got skills.....heart.....smart....slow feet....oops never mind that. :D

He's no thoroughbred athlete, but I like him in the vein of the great whites like Walton, McHale, DeBusschere, Bird....but he's all Love and not exactly any of those guys really. We'll see. I like the kid. He's got something of each of those guys in him, especially the feet.

There is a chance he drops to 9, but it will take Memphis choking and drafting trade bait.

Then again; if the Grizzlies can land Beasley...that ain't chokin'

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Draftnotes-080624

[Chef]

what about a paler better version of charles oakley? physically he compares well, and i think he can develop a mean streak.

[Slam]

Sure Bets:

Michael Beasley
Derrick Rose
Kevin Love

Likely to be very good:

OJ Mayo (ok ok)
Brook Lopez (yup! lol)
Joe Alexander
Danilo Gallinari
Brandon Rush

Semi-Solid Role Players - Possible Starters down the road

Russell Westbrook
Eric Gordon
Jerryd Bayless
DJ Augustin
Darrell Arthur
Alexis Ajinca

I'm gonna bust!

Anthony Randolph
DeAndre Jordan
Donte Greene
Roy Hibbert

We have it VERY different Keetch!!

In no real order:


Sure Bets
Michael Beasley
Kevin Love

Likely to be very good

Derrick Rose
OJ Mayo
Brook Lopez
Jerryd Bayless
DJ Augustin
Roy Hibbert
Russell Westbrook
Anthony Randolph


Semi-Solid Role Players - Possible Starters down the road

Eric Gordon
Darrell Arthur
Alexis Ajinca
Danilo Gallinari
Brandon Rush
Joe Alexander

I'm gonna bust
DeAndre Jordan
Donte Greene

[Keetch]

We're not so far off Slam. I know you like Hibbert and thats cool, but I don't care for him much. I trust your opinions though and will be interested to see how he develops; ESPECIALLY if he becomes a Bobcat.

You're basically more optimistic than I am I think!

[spectre]

Sure Bets
Michael Beasley
Kevin LoveMan, I can't get over all this "love" for Kevin Love!

At the least, isn't his motivation to get/stay in top shape a little bit in question? The guy has moved into the top basically because of his getting into shape right before the draft right? Heck, I could get into top shape in a couple of months if it meant 2 million bucks.

Doesn't anyone expect him to be a defensive liability, esp. playing the PF slot? Do you guys consider him or Mek to be the most athletic?

I asked Keetch who's comparable, and so far I've not gotten anyone in today's NBA. Is he that special that he can break all the molds?

On top of all that, Love measured just shy of 6'8"...of course he seems to wear thicker shoes than most everyone else so maybe that won't matter so much. Not a particularly great wingspan...a whole inch and a quarter more than DANNY GREEN of UNC. Average standing reach...Mayo and Westbrook have a better no step vertical. Freaking Ty Lawson has a better max vertical than Kevin Love!

Convince me.

[dav7z]

Im not a big love fan either with his size and slow feet he don't seem to fit our needs . Mek seems to me to even be quicker out on the wing and if thats the case we would just be better off taking Lopez at least we know he has the size if mek has got to play p/f any way. Then i think hell Hibbert is more polished at the center spot.
So i think speed and i think of Randolph a great pick three years down the road to fill the p/f spot. Westbrook my pick will be gone . A trade for Mayo would be great. Or even better a trade for Beasley fills our true needs [ Wallace and the ninth pick]
What to do?????????

[countryboi]

Man, I can't get over all this "love" for Kevin Love!

At the least, isn't his motivation to get/stay in top shape a little bit in question? The guy has moved into the top basically because of his getting into shape right before the draft right? Heck, I could get into top shape in a couple of months if it meant 2 million bucks.

Doesn't anyone expect him to be a defensive liability, esp. playing the PF slot? Do you guys consider him or Mek to be the most athletic?

I asked Keetch who's comparable, and so far I've not gotten anyone in today's NBA. Is he that special that he can break all the molds?

On top of all that, Love measured just shy of 6'8"...of course he seems to wear thicker shoes than most everyone else so maybe that won't matter so much. Not a particularly great wingspan...a whole inch and a quarter more than DANNY GREEN of UNC. Average standing reach...Mayo and Westbrook have a better no step vertical. Freaking Ty Lawson has a better max vertical than Kevin Love!

Convince me.

Man i feel you...he is a decent shot all the way out to college 3 point but his shot is slow and strange...he does no get much lift in the post up which ends up in his shot getting blocked alot...on top of the 12 percent body fat he is only 6'7...he looks to me like right now he is worst than May was when he was drafted

[Mustachio]

Man i feel you...he is a decent shot all the way out to college 3 point but his shot is slow and strange...he does no get much lift in the post up which ends up in his shot getting blocked alot...on top of the 12 percent body fat he is only 6'7...he looks to me like right now he is worst than May was when he was drafted


May was older, slower and showed less potential than Love has. Love is only 19. Body wise i get the concern, but he appears more mobile than May ever has been IMO. BBIQ is the main thing for me. I love smart players who think outside their position in a team concept. Instead of just getting the rebound and handing off... Love is getting the rebound and looking for the guy closest to the basket and thats not something your find in a 6'8 guy usually.

I am not the biggest Love fan, (the player and the emotion) but the one thing that keeps coming back to me is how well Sean May played when healthy. I think Kevin Love is better than Sean May already and so i think its possible he could be a great NBA player.

again... if given the choice of Love or Lopez... we should take Love and run away and hide.

[Slam]

Convince me.

He actually measures out pretty much exactly the same as Al Horford did - which is right on average for an NBA PF. Ideally he needs to be teamed with a long, athletic C and a good defensive SF to maximize his game.

From what I have read, UCLA got him to bulk up to play the 5 because they really didn't have any other options to play the position. He wanted to play lighter but they didn't want him to - so I don't think he's losing the weight just to get a higher draft spot. It's like when we made Eo50 add 25lbs to suit our needs a few years back.

I really see him as Chris Webber like.

[spectre]

There are a lot of guys measuring out like that...which is like you said "average" for an NBA PF. IMO Horford is special. What makes anyone think Love is "special"? BBIQ? May has pretty good hands and is pretty smart in general...that didn't stop him from getting abused by many PFs in the league, esp. in the paint.

This is the guy who'll be asked to guard KG, Duncan, Booz, Sheed. This is the guy we'd be using to guard Bosh.

[Slam]

There are a lot of guys measuring out like that...which is like you said "average" for an NBA PF. IMO Horford is special. What makes anyone think Love is "special"? BBIQ? May has pretty good hands and is pretty smart in general...that didn't stop him from getting abused by many PFs in the league, esp. in the paint.

This is the guy who'll be asked to guard KG, Duncan, Booz, Sheed. This is the guy we'd be using to guard Bosh.

What makes Horford so special? Love is a better passer, is smarter and is younger?

I know what you are saying about asking him to guard KG, Duncan, Booz, Sheed etc, but like I said on RGM - they can't even guard each other. They each (excluding Sheed) average 20/10 (or there abouts) on each other. It's what they do. So long as someone like Love can contain them - and because he knows angles, his body, is smart and actually gives 110% effort on D (take notice Ammo) I think he'll be ok.

In saying that, he's not my 1st choice to draft of course!!

[spectre]

Well some can guard those guys better than others. Players with liabilities (average measurements) are going to have a more difficult time. Like May he's not going to be able to get his hands as high as Bosh when he shoots that midrange jumper...so the only hope is that he misses. On the flip if we had a guy who does have an above average wingspan and vert he can at least challenge the shot.

I haven't seen Love play but piddling minutes so I can't debate him specifically; I'm debating the idea of him rising above the NBA's recent history of guys like him. I say Horford is "special" because he transcended the shortcomings (height, etc.), while the majority do not.

[Slam]

On the flip if we had a guy who does have an above average wingspan and vert he can at least challenge the shot.

Unless that atheltic vert is as dumb as a door knob, leaves his feet on every head fake and fouls the guy he's guarding or allows the guy he is guarding to waltz on by him while he's in the air!!

;)

I do see what you are saying, and I've mentioned Love's short comings for some time, I just think that he has an NBA game and that in the right environment he will have a really good NBA career.

Let me ask you this - two totally different types and they are both on the board at #9 with everyone else (Westbrook, Lopez, DJ etc) off the board.

Who do you pick:

Love or Randolph?

The high BBIQ pudgy white kid or the long athletic black kid?

[fatlever]

love v randolph? too easy.


back to love's defense.... dudley is slow for his position, cant jump high and isnt a long player, but he is a hell of a defender. playing defense isnt just about being athletic and tall. when karl malone was in his 30s he was still one of the best defenders in the league. dude never jumped to block shots. he did it all with superior positioning and smarts.

[spectre]

I wouldn't say Duds is a "hell of a defender". He's smart and can usually anticipate the other players' moves...but he still can't jump and has less than desirable lateral foot speed. Some he guarded pretty well (I think he did pretty good on Pierce), others he didn't. No matter what though, he and Love won't be able to do crap against a guy who can go out and drain 10-15 footers like it's nothing nor will they be able to stop guys who get deep into the paint.

At 9th? Other things being equal I'd take the potential. Out of Love & Randolph which has the best chance of becoming something special? Aren't you guys tired of taking the "safe" pick yet?

Should be noted, I didn't watch hardly any college ball this year (or last year for that matter)...so I can't make an informed judgement on who exactly we should pick. I don't "hate" Love; I just don't see any history telling me that he can make it...nor have I heard why he's different than all the other average players that didn't. I realize he's smart, but there's only so much that'll get you in a game where athleticism is king.

[Slam]

I do see where you are coming from, and it is a genuine concern, especially after being burnt so badly with the Ammo pick, but I think it would be unfair to turn away from Love because of what the "norm" is.

It should also be noted that I don't "love" Love, in fact I have been pretty critical of him, but there is no denying the boy has some skills.

[Wanderlai]

Well this is my 1st post but I, ahem, know most of "you" form reading RGM over the past couple of years. I have never been able to post/reg over "there" for some odd reason but oh well.

My 2 cents as a guy who followed the Hornets through their hayday and is trying to get into the Bobcats. They need a star player. They tried with Felton/May to get the UNC fans, myself included, but it didnt work. They tried the great white hype, Ammo, and that hasnt worked, although I think Ammo can play, well, offense that is. Crash should be in the old NWA with Ric Flair. He takes chair shots, concussions, elbow drops etc... but that isnt working. So I say they need to try to get a star, ala, LJ, to build around. Any trade that will net the Cats Beasley or Mayo I'm all for so long as its half way reasonable. Ammo and 9 for 3 is a pipe dream. I freakin wish that would happen. Miami wants a PG so how about Felton, 9, May and a future 1st. I should be preparing for the Cats to stay at 9 and take Jordan/Hibbert or some other guy I cant get exited about. I dont think Love will be there at 9 but if he is the Cats should take him. Randolf, no thank you, I don't want someone who is less than Brandan Wright will be. Oh if Bayless drops I'd take him over Westbrook or Randolf.

[ohara831]

Welcome Wanderlai! Good post, and I look forward to more. I'm not nearly as down on Love as some. I think he'll be a high quality PF for us if we get him. But I'm getting excited about the possibility of Bayless having a miracle drop to #9. It is looking more and more possible. (I said possible, not probable) Man, if we got the player that most see as the #4 man on the Board and we get him at #9, that's a steal. Trade what we need to so as to get our PF, but dont let Bayless by us if he falls to us.

[spectre]

Welcome...good to see you posting!

I've not seen any of these guys in action so I'm not really down on anyone. I'm just looking at the generalities and questioning you guys in the hope you'll get me more educated. I thought Slam did a bang up job of making his case.

Heh, course I'm still not convinced! Regardless, his floor is supposed to be May...and though I don't consider May a starter because of his shortcomings measurements wise...a healthy May would be a big asset to us.

Love at 9th I can deal with. Much better than Ammo at 3rd. But hopefully, all this is moot and we'll be getting that 3rd pick from Minny!

[Keetch]

Thanks Slam for making a case for Kevin Love. To me, it seems he is showing that he knows what he has to do with his body to play in the NBA, and he's doing it. He's still very young. I do not think with Love that its about getting a big paycheck and then checking out. Not at all!

I've heard comparisons to Brad Miller a bit and that seems apt. It's funny though because Miller wasn't hardly a high draft choice. Remember when he arrived with the Charlotte Hornets as a no-name out of Purdue and right away started playing his ass off? I picked him up quickly in my fantasy league and got totally abused by my friends. They were wrong :biggrin: . Anyway, I see Love as much softer than Miller at this age, but getting fit fast. I also see his overall skillset as better than Miller's; and that's going to get even better. That ain't all that bad.

I don't think one should underestimate basketball IQ when its combined with such high skills and then with high coaching that knows how to use it....and yeessss it is about shooting, passing, position....its not all crashing and flying.

I'm not sure you all realize (since he was on the west coast) that Love was considered a high school phenom ala Michael Beasley and Mayo? He was VERY highly regarded as a bball prodigy. I don't really see how that's just wiped away....

I listed Love as a "Sure bet". Maybe that's too much; but I'd sure bet on it.

And good gawd as a rookie, yes he'll get abused by many elite players in the league. There isn't one player in this draft that wouldn't. Even Beasley. Love will not be a PF gazelle like Bosh. He'll be the strong - skilled type. There's a place for that in the NBA, a very good place.

[TheBeagle]

Welcome Wanderlai! Good post, and I look forward to more. I'm not nearly as down on Love as some. I think he'll be a high quality PF for us if we get him. But I'm getting excited about the possibility of Bayless having a miracle drop to #9. It is looking more and more possible. (I said possible, not probable) Man, if we got the player that most see as the #4 man on the Board and we get him at #9, that's a steal. Trade what we need to so as to get our PF, but dont let Bayless by us if he falls to us.
I agree with you about Bayless if he drops; and I think there's little doubt he will be selected here if available. We're looking small first then big second. Since this is the year of the combo guard among the top 10 in the draft, and there are no great bigs excepting Beasley, MJ/LB are smart enough to know this, and will draft accordingly. As much as I like him, I can't believe RW is being slotted at 4; that's just too high for him at this stage of his career, and is a massive risk. If this stays, and RW is gone, Bayless would be a very nice consolation prize.

As for Love, being an old Hawks fan growing up in the late 80's til '94, I can't help but see a variation of Adam Keefe; a slow, mid-sized big who put up big numbers in college, but was nothing more than an 8th or 9th man off the bench in the pros. I'll never forget the '93 draft, when the Hawks picked him at 10, I believe, and how sick I felt...and for good reason it turned out. Like Love, Keefe was a banger in college, but was relegated to a few perimeter jumpers and a couple garbage buckets a game in the pros. Lopez is the only pick that would really piss me off, but I'd be disappointed if we went with Love if Bayless was still on the board.

[dnbman]

I agree with you about Bayless if he drops; and I think there's little doubt he will be selected here if available. We're looking small first then big second. Since this is the year of the combo guard among the top 10 in the draft, and there are no great bigs excepting Beasley, MJ/LB are smart enough to know this, and will draft accordingly. As much as I like him, I can't believe RW is being slotted at 4; that's just too high for him at this stage of his career, and is a massive risk. If this stays, and RW is gone, Bayless would be a very nice consolation prize.

As for Love, being an old Hawks fan growing up in the late 80's til '94, I can't help but see a variation of Adam Keefe; a slow, mid-sized big who put up big numbers in college, but was nothing more than an 8th or 9th man off the bench in the pros. I'll never forget the '93 draft, when the Hawks picked him at 10, I believe, and how sick I felt...and for good reason it turned out. Like Love, Keefe was a banger in college, but was relegated to a few perimeter jumpers and a couple garbage buckets a game in the pros. Lopez is the only pick that would really piss me off, but I'd be disappointed if we went with Love if Bayless was still on the board.

Wow. I can appreciate the lingering effects of the Keefe pick. However, Love seems to be much more athletic than Keefe. His 3/4 floor speed was faster than any of the lottery bigs, including Beasley and Randolph. In fact, Mayo was only a little bit faster (.08 sec.). His lane agility was also very competitive. His vertical was only 35", but that was the same as Beasley and Randolph. Basically, he seems to be a pretty good athlete and fairly mobile. I'm usually extremely critical of slow, big white guys going to the league. However, Love looks like the real deal: strong, quick, and fairly agile. As long as he stays in shape, he should be fantastic.

As Keetch mentioned, Love was one of the most coveted players in high school basketball. He doesn't seem to be a kid who overachieved because of a good program and good coach, as many bigs have been. I think he'll be great, giving us another player to facilitate the offense and let Okafor play more to the interior as a center. Yeah, he may have trouble guarding the best 4s in the league, but so do 95% of all of the other 4s in the league. Being difficult to defend is what makes those guys all-stars. I think Love can do as well as most bigs we could get, and he'd be a huge upgrade in offense at the position.

I don't think he's going to fall to us, but if he does, I think we should take him.