Felton Ready to be Brown's Leader

[spectre]

Hoopsworld (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9744)

Raymond Felton is taking his role as co-captain of the Charlotte Bobcats to heart next season. After playing under two coaches in three seasons, he has already to dedicated himself to his newest coach's system. Felton is buying into Larry Brown's winning history just as much as Brown is buying into his leadership.

"I've had several meetings with Coach Brown," Felton told HOOPSWOLD at the 2008 adidas Nations Experience in Dallas. "There's been good meetings. There's been meetings of, 'I'm going to be very demanding of you Raymond. You're the captain. You're the leader of this team along with J-Rich (Jason Richardson) and Gerald (Wallace), so I'm demanding a lot from you. I'm expecting a lot from you. I'm expecting you to lead these guys.' So I'm putting all that on my shoulders. I'm looking forward to it."

Felton is accepting more responsibility amid speculation that he could lose his starting job to rookie D.J. Augustin. This summer the Bobcats stirred up questions by drafting a promising point guard when they already had Felton at the helm. The veteran is secure in his role, however, and sees Augustin as a welcome addition to the Bobcats reserves rather than competition.

"That means a lot," he said of Augustin's addition. "You've got a kid coming off the bench when the team isn't going to lose a beat. He's a great player."

The video to this interview can be seen here (http://www.hoopsworld.com/video/index.asp?mm_file_id=1254&play_clip=Y)

[dnbman]

I love Felton, but he speaks too much about being the team leader. I'd rather hear about what him and JRich are doing in the off-season or how he's preparing for the upcoming season than hear him talk about being the leader.

It's cool though, I guess.

[spectre]

I love Felton, but he speaks too much about being the team leader. I'd rather hear about what him and JRich are doing in the off-season or how he's preparing for the upcoming season than hear him talk about being the leader.

It's cool though, I guess.

I think that's because LB is beating it into him...remember Brown's whole concept of team basketball starts and ends with the PG.

That being said, like you I'd really like to hear what they've been doing in the offseason, especially about how he and Swish are progressing together in particular. The one thing we can get from this however is that Brown and Felts are talking a lot.

[dnbman]

The one thing we can get from this however is that Brown and Felts are talking a lot.

No doubt, that's a good thing. But, I want to start hearing what they are DOING rather than what they are talking about. I know it's not even preseason yet. But, when it comes to basketball, I appreciate action more than words.

I'm probably just anxious for the season to start. Scratch that. I KNOW I'm anxious for the season to start.

[spectre]

No doubt, that's a good thing. But, I want to start hearing what they are DOING rather than what they are talking about. I know it's not even preseason yet. But, when it comes to basketball, I appreciate action more than words.

I'm probably just anxious for the season to start. Scratch that. I KNOW I'm anxious for the season to start.

I'm with ya man...let's bombard David Thompson with PMs/emails asking him to look into getting the Bobcats' media people to do that. Can anyone else think of questions we're "dying" to have answered?

*Who's working out in Charlotte, how soon can we expect the whole team to be there practicing together?

*What are they working on primarily...what are the individual goals?

*Is LB already "teaching"?

Any one of us with access could go in and get these answers and put it online in a half a day. They NEED to keep us diehard fans happy and this is so little to ask.

[Muttley]

I'm with ya man...let's bombard David Thompson with PMs/emails asking him to look into getting the Bobcats' media people to do that. Can anyone else think of questions we're "dying" to have answered?

*Who's working out in Charlotte, how soon can we expect the whole team to be there practicing together?

*What are they working on primarily...what are the individual goals?

*Is LB already "teaching"?

Any one of us with access could go in and get these answers and put it online in a half a day. They NEED to keep us diehard fans happy and this is so little to ask.

I think you mean Michael Thompson, though David Thompson's cool too!

It'd be great to get that kind of feedback from the team. I still think they should have a player blog or something where they can talk about the workouts they've been doing and what they've been focusing on improving this off-season.

[spectre]

I think you mean Michael Thompson, though David Thompson's cool too!

It'd be great to get that kind of feedback from the team. I still think they should have a player blog or something where they can talk about the workouts they've been doing and what they've been focusing on improving this off-season.

I did...man that's embarrasing.

[Dead_Real]

Watch Felton play with a major chip on his shoulder because of the Augustin signing just like DeAngelo Williams looks to be doing now with Jonathan Stewart right behind him on the depth chart.

[Ghost Kat]

Cant help but be excited

[MattD]

I love Felton, but he speaks too much about being the team leader.

your close... its that he tries to hard to be the teams leader when naturally, at least in the past couple of seasons, he wasnt ready. since he hasnt been ready, he has tried to overdo things and does to much thus hurting the team, (think all last second buzzer beaters go to him)

then he gobs on the im the leader stuff when Jrich seems to be the natural leader. Leaders generally are the ones who can make the biggest impact for the team and for the other players, Jrich was the one out their screaming defensive assignments and what not during the games, not felton; and jrich was the one who jumpstarted the offense, not felton.

but hey another season, another chance to prove me wrong

[dnbman]

then he gobs on the im the leader stuff when Jrich seems to be the natural leader. Leaders generally are the ones who can make the biggest impact for the team and for the other players, Jrich was the one out their screaming defensive assignments and what not during the games, not felton; and jrich was the one who jumpstarted the offense, not felton.

but hey another season, another chance to prove me wrong

But JRich isn't really a leader. Being the best player doesn't equate with being the leader, nor does taking the last shot. I get your point about making defensive calls, but I think you could only make a marginal case for anyone being a leader of any sort the last couple of seasons.

JRich doesn't seem to be a leader type of player. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a lot to offer his teammates, he just doesn't seem like a leader. Okafor seems the same. Both of those guys seem like the kind of guys that want to know their role and play it effectively under good leadership.

One big problem we've had is a lack of leadership on the floor. Being the pg, Felton has tried to fulfill that role. But when you don't have good leadership coaching you, you can't do a lot to compensate for that.

That being said, I think we're in agreement that we want to see Felton's leadership play out on the court rather than soundbites.

[spectre]

I don't really see it as "The Leader" vs. "Lead". In different variations I can see any of the three taking the lead. However, LB is going to want Felts to be his double on the court...and under LB and without a flat out superstar that has to be the PG.

There were a few positives I took from the article:

1) Felts and Larry Brown are talking...a lot.

2) Felts seems to be very comfortable with LB and has bought into his system.

3) He has the backing of Larry Brown (from all the "you're the leader, etc"), something he's never had on this team before.

4) He seems very comfortable with drafting DJ and they both are saying they can work together (see also DJ's comments in the other Hoopsworld article).

Not going to list it, but it also seems that Felts feels pretty comfortable that he's going to get his shot as the team's PG this year...so I see no trade on the horizon. What I do see is that we're going to have one of the best PG tandems in the league. Not so bad considering what we went with last year.

[davcbow]

I don't really see it as "The Leader" vs. "Lead". In different variations I can see any of the three taking the lead. However, LB is going to want Felts to be his double on the court...and under LB and without a flat out superstar that has to be the PG.

There were a few positives I took from the article:

1) Felts and Larry Brown are talking...a lot.

2) Felts seems to be very comfortable with LB and has bought into his system.

3) He has the backing of Larry Brown (from all the "you're the leader, etc"), something he's never had on this team before.

4) He seems very comfortable with drafting DJ and they both are saying they can work together (see also DJ's comments in the other Hoopsworld article).

Not going to list it, but it also seems that Felts feels pretty comfortable that he's going to get his shot as the team's PG this year...so I see no trade on the horizon. What I do see is that we're going to have one of the best PG tandems in the league. Not so bad considering what we went with last year.

I agree with you on this spectre, we will have a very good PG tandem this year and neither of them will be traded in my opinion. I do feel we could make a trade for a PF using our abundant wing players, but only if the right fit for the team became available and only if it makes us better.....:cool:

[Ghost Kat]

Larry Brown won't make Felton a better shooter, But he could install a better offense that doesn't make Felton the # 2 or 3 option. I don't see Felton getting "better", He had a great coach in Roy Williams at UNC. He also had people to score for him. We blame him for not being Chris Paul or Deron Williams and use the excuse he had bad coaching. Coaching isn't the problem, Well it was but it shouldn't stop a true baller. There are plenty of Allstars right not with a sorry coaching staff and Front Office. Chris Bosh, Lebron, Vince Carter, plus more. Talent shines where ever it plays. The reason why Felton hasnt reached the level of a Paul or Williams is he isn't that good and i doubt Larry Brown will put him at that level.

[spectre]

Talent shines where ever it plays. The reason why Felton hasnt reached the level of a Paul or Williams is he isn't that good and i doubt Larry Brown will put him at that level.

There's a helluva big gap between a very good PG and an all star. What's your reasoning for the 26 other PGs (discounting Nash) not playing as well as Paul? Is it all star or bust for us?

Unless you have a sick inside presence who can create his own offense and bail you out most PGs aren't going to overcome a nonexistent offense where no one knows where to be. There's a reason most of our troubles come in a half court offense.

[Ghost Kat]

Isn't that the job of a good point guard...To point out where people need to be and to get them the ball. Point Guards run the offense, Thats there job. Deron Williams has Boozer...I wouldn't go so far as to say he's a sick presence. Paul has Chandler...Who catches Ally's...What else does he do? Not all good players are Allstars, But we were talking about the leadership someone shows. Coaches can't really teach you to lead, That has to be something inside of you. I've read people saying Brown is going to make him a better player...How? He already has a good skill set and he hasn't excelled. He's had good coaching in the past so we can't blame the coaches for him not being better. Last year the offense was terrible, Thats not all Felton problem, But the point guard is the coach on the court.

[spectre]

Isn't that the job of a good point guard...To point out where people need to be and to get them the ball. Point Guards run the offense, Thats there job. Deron Williams has Boozer...I wouldn't go so far as to say he's a sick presence. Paul has Chandler...Who catches Ally's...What else does he do? Not all good players are Allstars, But we were talking about the leadership someone shows. Coaches can't really teach you to lead, That has to be something inside of you. I've read people saying Brown is going to make him a better player...How? He already has a good skill set and he hasn't excelled. He's had good coaching in the past so we can't blame the coaches for him not being better. Last year the offense was terrible, Thats not all Felton problem, But the point guard is the coach on the court.

You're neglecting the fact that Paul had Byron Scott (didn't he get Coach of the Year?) and Williams had Jerry Sloan (considered a top 5 coach in the league).

Felton had good coaching in the past...at UNC. He's had crap for coaching in the pros AND he's had those crap coaches trying to play him as an undersized SG. How in the hell can you NOT blame the coaching?

And the PG is not the coach on the court; he's the EXTENSION of the coach on the court. Was Felton also supposed to run practice and teach the guys where they should be in certain situations? Even if he did, do you think the (much controlling) Idiot would have allowed him to do that?

Facts are that Felts had a subpar season last year UNTIL they cut McInnis and the players decided to ignore the Idiot and play they way they should. We went .500 after that.

Larry Brown will make Felton better because he'll bring a system. Players will know where they need to be and what to do. Instead of just standing in the paint watching when Felton drives the lane maybe Mek will get in better position to either pull the defender away or get a better pass? Instead of trying to go 1 v 1 whenever he gets the ball maybe Crash will instead move the ball and get someone a better shot?

There's a multitude of ways LB will make Felts and the rest of the team better. Maybe you don't see it now, but I feel certain you will once we get into the season. Coaching matters, because this is a TEAM sport...esp. when you have no superstars.

[Dead_Real]

Would rep you if I could spectre agree 100% it's hard for a player to show he can lead & run a offense when he's being used as a combo guard playing out of position more than his natural one. If Felts plays this season anywhere near how he played when they gave Touche the boot I see no reason he shouldn't breakout.

Also Boozer is a 20 and 10 guy he's most definitely a sick presence that helps out Deron's assist numbers just like David West helps out CP3's and Stoudemire to Nash. Having a big man that can score in a variety of ways (especially pick and pop, pick and roll plays) helps out a point tremendously we haven't had that since McMay went down.

[110oldeast]

Double post.

[110oldeast]

Kat,

Systems and cohesive parts help players even "true ballers" play better. I have repeatedly shown examples where the elite pgs (none of the players you mentioned thriving despite crappy situations were pgs) in the league have struggled when not properly surrounded or in the right system and yet some people go back to acting like pg is played in a vaccuum. And that is not saying that Felton doesn't have individual things that he needs to work on (CLEARLY he does) but systems and surrounding players ARE relevant. Listen to folks critique the Cavs offense that poorly surrounds Lebron with shooting and makes him take the ball from the top of the key to initiate offense. He is a "true baller," but he could be more effectively used by the coach and surrounded by the front offense. Compare this with the sweet spots that Kobe gets the ball in and the system and surrounding parts that the Lakers have and you will get a better understanding. The Bobcats when Wallace played had the personnel to be a better running team than halfcourt, but it was the former for much of the year. Furthermore, Felton is good at penetrating and kicking and it took Vincent 80% of the year to figure out that him being on the floor with Carroll could be a good thing.

As to the poo pooing of Carlos Boozer, he is a better offensive player than any frontcourt player we have and Mehmet Okur is a great pick and pop option (needed at the end of the shot clock). You mention Chandler for Paul, but you forgot West who may be the best pick and pop player in the league and is their 1B team MVP (the team actually has a worse record w/o West than w/o Paul). Even w/ "true ballers," you still have to have parts and the system that fits the parts. Sean May and Adam Morrison potentially could have been filling these roles but expansion teams and the pgs of expansion teams rarely are able to afford having 2 wasted lottery picks.

Furthermore, you have a misguided view of Felton's time at UNC that you use as a guide. McCants and May were definitely the top 2 options on the team, but Felton was not a guy who only shot as a last option and didn't have to worry about scoring, as he was a key scorer on the team. This was especially true after he and Roy talked after the Cameron debacle where he methodically tried to run through the various play options instead of instinctively taking it to the rack as he had been doing during the comeback. Jawad Williams was the 3rd leading scorer and was ahead of Felton--who led the ACC in 3 pt shooting--by .2 pts. The kid grew up as a scoring pg who learned to sacrifice offense when he came to UNC before finding the appropriate balance in his junior year of being aggressive while also getting others involved.

As to him taking a bunch of buzzer beaters, that is not an example of him trying to lead too much. It's a matter of our halfcourt offense bogging down and the ball coming back to his hands with the clock running down. Pgs are taught that if you pitch it to someone else with 2 seconds and make them force up the shot, that is your turnover. Ideally, you have a great PICK AND POP option like David West, Okur, Boozer, etc. to work with at the end of the clock so that there are less forced up shots like that. A healthy May and a developing Jemario Davidson would do a lot here. Like I said, if folks are speaking to the shot at the end of the half that he routinely took (why would the coach not say anything), it's one thing, but shots at the end of the shot clock are not something many players want as they kill your fg percentage as they did his.

All that said, I think Larry will do a lot for the Bobcats and Felton in particular. While I would expect Felton to work on some individual skills himself, I think LB will have the team run a more efficient offense (still would like to see a clear legit PF) that will help the team and Felton get and take better shots that fit their skillsets.


Larry Brown won't make Felton a better shooter, But he could install a better offense that doesn't make Felton the # 2 or 3 option. I don't see Felton getting "better", He had a great coach in Roy Williams at UNC. He also had people to score for him. We blame him for not being Chris Paul or Deron Williams and use the excuse he had bad coaching. Coaching isn't the problem, Well it was but it shouldn't stop a true baller. There are plenty of Allstars right not with a sorry coaching staff and Front Office. Chris Bosh, Lebron, Vince Carter, plus more. Talent shines where ever it plays. The reason why Felton hasnt reached the level of a Paul or Williams is he isn't that good and i doubt Larry Brown will put him at that level.

[110oldeast]

That is a money post. I think that cliches like "coach on the floor" and "make your teammates better" need to come with clear definitions attached and dislaimers that folks must truly display an understanding them to spout them off.

I don't think that Paul or Williams walked into their teams and said, "I'm installing this offense for us. Just follow my lead." But to listen to some folks who have gone to scapegoating Felton for issues with this team, I have come to believe that many folks believe this to be the case.

Furthermore, I am going back through the archives to watch all the games where these guys just bounced the ball off their teammates heads and it went into the basket. I think "make your teammates better" needs to be replaced by "illuminate your teammates' strengths." Ultimately, you have to have guys with the appropriate skillset for the team and the playmaker from their must be able to be in a situation to help bring lights to those strengths. They don't make the players into something they aren't. The key is for the system and parts to be in place and from there, the playmaker needs to be able to shine light on these strengths.

The problem is people act like Paul made West one of the best midrange jump shooters at the PF position in the league or gave Chandler a vertical in the mid 30s with his wingspan. He didn't. BUT he is a strong playmaker who makes strong decisions and they run the right system with the constant pick and roll/pop with FLOOR SPACERS (Peja, MoPete, added James Posey) to open things up and make folks have to pick their poison. The FO makes the right moves to fit this (James Posey--defense but a SHOOTER--easiest assists to get). The Jazz added Korver when D-Will struggled and needed that shooter when they were 17-17 earlier last year.

To listen to some folks talk, you would think Paul and Deron have just taken some paraplegics (sp.) and elevated them to playoff status with no moves or support from anyone else in the front office, coaching staff, or on the floor with them.

All that said, they are both terrific talents, but success is a team (coaching, players, front office) effort.


You're neglecting the fact that Paul had Byron Scott (didn't he get Coach of the Year?) and Williams had Jerry Sloan (considered a top 5 coach in the league).

Felton had good coaching in the past...at UNC. He's had crap for coaching in the pros AND he's had those crap coaches trying to play him as an undersized SG. How in the hell can you NOT blame the coaching?

And the PG is not the coach on the court; he's the EXTENSION of the coach on the court. Was Felton also supposed to run practice and teach the guys where they should be in certain situations? Even if he did, do you think the (much controlling) Idiot would have allowed him to do that?

Facts are that Felts had a subpar season last year UNTIL they cut McInnis and the players decided to ignore the Idiot and play they way they should. We went .500 after that.

Larry Brown will make Felton better because he'll bring a system. Players will know where they need to be and what to do. Instead of just standing in the paint watching when Felton drives the lane maybe Mek will get in better position to either pull the defender away or get a better pass? Instead of trying to go 1 v 1 whenever he gets the ball maybe Crash will instead move the ball and get someone a better shot?

There's a multitude of ways LB will make Felts and the rest of the team better. Maybe you don't see it now, but I feel certain you will once we get into the season. Coaching matters, because this is a TEAM sport...esp. when you have no superstars.

[Ghost Kat]

Everyone has their own opinion, But saying that i'm misguided is a little extreme. You have no reason to shit on my ideas. I didn't leave out West, I just mentioned Chandler. As far as coaching goes, These people are in the NBA which probably means they know how to play. Coaching at this point should really only deal with conditioning and plays. In all honesty no NBA coach should have to motivate his players. Playing in the NBA is a lifetime dream,Most players make millions, Why should the coach have to motivate them to play better? By the way..I'm not the first or only person to say the Point Guard is the Coach on the court, Plus it's a true statement. The coach can't go out there and play so the leader on the court is the PG...Thats not really arguable.

I didn't poo poo Boozer, not really, You are trying to read more into it then what i truely meant. Most of the posts i just read tryin to give validation, I have said before about him. No Felton hasn't had a dominate big man. But neither did Baron Davis. Felton at UNC was no where near the #1, 2, or 3 option. It's easy to say he was a scorer then, He didn't have to score. Now he has to score and he's not good at it. Throw out whatever stat's you want, IF he was such a good player why is there so much trade talk around him? Being the leading scorer in High school doesn't count for much. My cousin Terrell McIntyre who play'd at Clemson same time as Felton at UNC scored why more in high school then Felton and more in college. Sadly he plays over sea's cuz he's ony 5"9 and NBA scouts didn't see much life for him in the NBA.

I'm not going to get in a back and front about Felton...Again. I have been a fan of his since Carolina. But i have a little common sense too. It's ok for all of us to be pundits and say coaching has held him back. But these are NBA players, U get coaching in middle school and high school. College too, But at some point it falls back on the player. These grown men are profestionals and if you can't improve yourself from year to year the only one to blame is the player... not the coach.

[Ghost Kat]

[quote=110oldeast;95139]That is a money post. I think that cliches like "coach on the floor" and "make your teammates better" need to come with clear definitions attached and dislaimers that folks must truly display an understanding them to spout them off.


U think if someone to took the time to go back through all the posts you have ever done they wouldn't find a few of the comments your condeming now? Not everything you "spout" off is 100%, Plus people have been using the same phrases for yrs now does that make everyone that uses them less knowlegdable then you? Maybe you'd have a bad day, but there seems to be a little anger in your tone, Does talking bad about Raymond get under your skin that much?

[dnbman]

Kat,

Systems and cohesive parts help players even "true ballers" play better. ....


Cosign ^

Also, Felton shot very well his junior year. He brought up his fg% a couple of points last year, and I expect him to do it again this season.

[110oldeast]

Kat,

Coach on the floor by definition implies there is a legitimate one on the bench who sets the initial tone and gameplan. If there isn't one doing the first part, being an extension of that is less than ideal. If you really believe that the NBA is just about rolling the ball out and letting them play and that coaching is irrelevant other than strength and conditioning, I disagree immensely. If you really equate the coaching of Bickerstaff and Vincent with Byron Scott and Larry Brown, then I again disagree immensely. I am sorry that saying your words were misguided and that I offended you, but I stand by darn near everything else I said.

And yes, I was at UNC from 8-20 through the F-M-M class and despite what you are saying he was #3 as far as the players they counted on when they needed buckets. May and McCants were options 1 and 2. After that, Felton was the consistent option. Jawad and Marvin (disappeared after the 1st 2 rounds of the NCAA tourney) could alternate getting points but Felton WAS counted on to score in big games despite your assertion otherwise. Sure, if they were playing Cleveland St., he might just take a few shots and distribute, but for the big games he scored, shot well, and distributed signficantly. I never said he was the top scorer, but your implication that he merely distributed and didn't have to worry about scoring is false and ignoring statistics and game examples won't change that.

Finally, I am not saying that he is without fault and doesn't have room to improve (he has plenty), but I do not see how anyone can evaluate the pg position in a vacuum. If any position's total success is dependent upon being in the appropriate system with the appropriate cohesive parts, it is pg. It's not the same as being a wing or frontcourt player who can just go out and get yours and not worrying about anything else. Nobody is even asking for him to get dominant big man, at this point a healthy May would be a dream come true. It's about having guys with the proper skillsets around you. Setups are only as good as those finishing them.

Finally, NBA pg and college pg are not one in the same. The fact that Felton got coaching from Roy Williams to undo his initial coaching from Matt Doherty is not relevant to his NBA situation other than to show that he had skills and potential coming into the league. They still have to be properly fostered and developed once he is in the league (see the fact that Felton was running at 1B with Paul for top rookie in the 2nd half of the year as both were ahead of D-Will who is arguably better than both now). If you think the time spent playing as an undersized sg and poor direction was a great way to help him develop as an NBA pg and that ALL of his struggles are his own doing, again I will disagree immensely.

[110oldeast]

PS Kat,

I enjoyed watching your cousin play at Clemson and am sorry that his height is keeping him out of the league, but I doubt VERY SERIOUSLY that he scored more in HS than Felton who is the all-time leading scorer in South Carolina history who helped lead little Latta HS over teams like Dematha, Mt. Zion, and a NC State Champ RJ Reynolds squad loaded with D-1 talent going over 40 in all of them. The kid was a consensus national top 3 player behind only Amare Stoudemire consistently for a reason. As a do it all (averaged about 30 9 and 9 in HS) player in HS and to a lesser extent AAU, he had to learn to play with talent when he got to UNC and he deferred a lot early as the other guys on the team needed to get their shots. As I said, as he grew he learned how to do both, be aggressive himself while still getting the others involved.

I admit that I have watched (and continue to watch) him (and Paul) play since High School. I am no authority on things, but after 8-20, I watched and analyzed the guys who came in in the following UNC class pretty intently. I have continued doing so with Felton, b/c he plays for my favorite/hometown team and b/c I have always seen give his all, play through injuries and be the leader that he mentions during tough times and help elevate his teams when given the right opportunity. I also have seen him take frustrating situations and not really air it publicly as he could, usually trying to keep it in house while carrying himself well.

Like I said, I am not saying the guy is perfect and he has plenty to work on. But, if I think someone is saying something I disagree with, I will interject. And I will do that with plenty of players, but I cannot speak on their pasts as much (which you mentioned when talking about him at UNC), b/c I did not follow them intently. I can speak to their play and impact on the Bobcats however and will do so.

My problem with some folks is that Felton seems to be the player most easily dismissed by many fans and the one guy not getting a full "2nd chance" now that we have an actual coach. And yet, he was probably the player done one of the greatest disservice from a coaching/utilization standpoints of the previous players. While many folks are willing to give other guys clean slates, many are pushing him halfway out the door. Furthermore, it amazes how many folks seem to only find the faults in his game while ignoring readily available strongpoints.

PS: If a guy's name comes up in trade talks, as in other teams inquiring about him, that means he DOES have value. That is why Sacramento, Cleveland, NY, etc. were asking about him. His potential may not have been tapped yet (may never be), but teams don't ask about guys that they don't think could help them out.

[110oldeast]

If you think this is the case, then why in the world did we spend money to bring in one of the greatest basketball teachers in the game? Do you think it was for show? To say that coaching ends at the NBA level is something that I disagree with strongly, but it also explains part of where you and I differ in our views.


But these are NBA players, U get coaching in middle school and high school. College too, But at some point it falls back on the player. These grown men are profestionals and if you can't improve yourself from year to year the only one to blame is the player... not the coach.

[Ghost Kat]

I'll make this post short and i'll truely reply tomorrow. Terrell in high school his senior year was averaging over 30 - 40 points a game. I watched him score 50 three times. But he's happy playin over sea's. He still gets to play the game he loves.

[aznjustice14]

Felton who is the all-time leading scorer in South Carolina history who helped lead little Latta HS over teams like Dematha, Mt. Zion, and a NC State Champ RJ Reynolds squad loaded with D-1 talent going over 40 in all of them.

And he dominated my old HS (Wilson High School) on that youtube video where it shows felton's highschool days...he was a beast dunker back then and we were pretty good (carlos powell 20ppg scorer of the d-league, and current sam muldrow on the gamecocks are from wilson..we won state champs with sam in 2007)

[Ghost Kat]

Let me go ahead and knock this out so i can go back to my regularly schduled post. 110oldeast, I'll accept your apology but i'll say today it isn't needed. I've counted atleast three times when responding to something i was posted you have downplay'd either me and/or my basketball IQ. Now i'm a educated young man and i know this is the internet, So nothing said could upset or offend me unless i let it. Maybe you didn't mean anything by it or maybe thats just how you talk. Gottz no problem with anyone calling me out for something i post, I actually welcome the chance to debate. But saying things like " statements like that shows your questionable knowledge" , thats a loaded comment. Makes the "themz fightin words" voices start yellin in my head. I've read alot of posts on this site, Mostly wit the trades, I've seen people say some dumb shit. But when i respond i usually say " your entitled to your opinion,But " blah blah blah.
I've liked this site cuz there's seems not to be alot of back and forth silly fighting. Alot of sites have internet thugs that come on and yip yap cuz it's easy to type big. Since i'm not one of those people we can go on with our daily postin. Any negativity is about as important as two flies smashed on a windy day.

As far as Felton goes, I hope you will agree no matter who your coach is, It's the players responsiblity to get better from year to year. Can you honestly say Felton has done that? U can call out whatever stat's you want, You've watched the same player for three years as me. Felton is not a good shooter, 41% is the only stat i need. Doesn't matter what the shot clock says, who's on the floor, He can score,yes, But he's no Dell Curry. Larry Brown can only do so much. But if Felton plays that much better this year , would it be from the coaching or the fact that he actually took the time to personally make himself better. I've never said Felton wasn't a good player, I'm very happy, once again, to have him. But I can't sit back while numberous people pretend that getting a name brand coach will make these players better all by his lonesome.

[spectre]

As far as Felton goes, I hope you will agree no matter who your coach is, It's the players responsiblity to get better from year to year. Can you honestly say Felton has done that?

You've seen absolutely no improvement in his game for 3 seasons? You see no detriment to Bernie playing Felton as a SG for almost his entire 1st year, half the second and the Idiot for 2/3 of his 3rd season?

The fact is when Felton has been given the job without reservations (twice...end of the 1st and 3rd seasons) he had this team playing .500 ball. You continually ignore that.

Felton is not a good shooter, 41% is the only stat i need. Doesn't matter what the shot clock says, who's on the floor, He can score,yes, But he's no Dell Curry.

I don't want him to be Dell Curry...why are you comparing him to a SG/SF? Felton's a point guard. I'd like if he shot 50% from the field, but Jason Kidd's career FG is just over 40%...doesn't make him crap.

Larry Brown can only do so much. But if Felton plays that much better this year , would it be from the coaching or the fact that he actually took the time to personally make himself better.

The guy lives in the gym, but you're insinuating he doesn't put the time in? He works on his game pretty much the whole offseason the same as Swish does. You can call him out on a lot of things, but his work ethic is about as wrong as it gets.

It seems that you think a team can just take 5 players, give them a crappy coach, throw them on the floor and then everyone will just do well? Haven't you noticed that team in Atlanta for the past decade?

[Ghost Kat]

As far as Felton goes, I hope you will agree no matter who your coach is, It's the players responsiblity to get better from year to year. Can you honestly say Felton has done that?

You've seen absolutely no improvement in his game for 3 seasons? You see no detriment to Bernie playing Felton as a SG for almost his entire 1st year, half the second and the Idiot for 2/3 of his 3rd season?

The fact is when Felton has been given the job without reservations (twice...end of the 1st and 3rd seasons) he had this team playing .500 ball. You continually ignore that.

Felton is not a good shooter, 41% is the only stat i need. Doesn't matter what the shot clock says, who's on the floor, He can score,yes, But he's no Dell Curry.

I don't want him to be Dell Curry...why are you comparing him to a SG/SF? Felton's a point guard. I'd like if he shot 50% from the field, but Jason Kidd's career FG is just over 40%...doesn't make him crap.

Larry Brown can only do so much. But if Felton plays that much better this year , would it be from the coaching or the fact that he actually took the time to personally make himself better.

The guy lives in the gym, but you're insinuating he doesn't put the time in? He works on his game pretty much the whole offseason the same as Swish does. You can call him out on a lot of things, but his work ethic is about as wrong as it gets.

It seems that you think a team can just take 5 players, give them a crappy coach, throw them on the floor and then everyone will just do well? Haven't you noticed that team in Atlanta for the past decade?



Question #1. Did I say i saw NO improvment? If thats not what i said don't jump that far. I asked a question, you didn't exactly answer it. I said has he made his overall game better. Yes, He has play'd very well at times. But i asked has he improved his over all game. I don't care if he play''d SG, SF or was the water boy. I asked a simple question. It is your job as a profestional NBA player to play better each year. I expect that from all the people, players, coaches,even the cheerleaders.

Question #2. I said he is no Dell Curry as a point of reference. Any Charlotte fan that remembers Curry knows he was a very good jump shooter. Pointing out that Dell was a SG wasn't even cost to the point i was trying to make.

Question #3. I'm glad you brought up Jason Kidd and helped shoot your own statement in the foot. Anyone who watches Kidd knows he's a great player, but also see's on the few jump shots he does take, He doesn't make many of them. Being a good player isn't the same as being a good shooter. I never have said Felton isn't a good player so thanks for helping my point.

Question #4. How do you know he lives in the gym?? Have you seen his drivers license? Enough jokes, I have a question. Exempting his rookie year would you vote Raymond Felton most improved player on the Bobcats? I didn't question his work ethic or how hard he works on getting better. I said he hasn't shown the improvment over the last couple seasons, Reguardless of coaching, He needs to advance his game play. When i said Something bout him actually takin the time to better himself i was pointing out the difference in getting better cuz of coaching and getting better cuz you put the time in to learn, adjust or work on your basketball skillz.

The statement bout the team and the crappy coach....WHAT??
When did i ever say anything like that? I've never said that the coach doesn't have any role what so ever in how the team plays. What i do remember sayin is that your coach can only take you so far. He's not the one on the court. He can draw up whatever play he wants, Yell from the sideline till he passes out. It's still the player that does the work.

Anytime else?

[spectre]

Question #1. Did I say i saw NO improvment? If thats not what i said don't jump that far. I asked a question, you didn't exactly answer it. I said has he made his overall game better.

As far as Felton goes, I hope you will agree no matter who your coach is, It's the players responsiblity to get better from year to year. Can you honestly say Felton has done that?

You certainly implied it...what else can one take from "can you honestly say Felton has improved (done that)? His assists have increased every year as has his FT%. His asst/TO ratio has also improved. Don't look now but his FG% has also slightly improved, even though he went from his real position where the focus is totally different to the SG postion (where the point IS to shoot!).

Yeah, I'd say his overall game has gotten better.


I don't care if he play''d SG, SF or was the water boy. I asked a simple question. It is your job as a profestional NBA player to play better each year. I expect that from all the people, players, coaches,even the cheerleaders.

Of course you don't; obviously the only thing that matters is shooting.


Question #2. I said he is no Dell Curry as a point of reference. Any Charlotte fan that remembers Curry knows he was a very good jump shooter. Pointing out that Dell was a SG wasn't even cost to the point i was trying to make.

No, once again...it's all about the FG%. How hard is it to grasp that postions matter in regards to what the player's role is? SGs SHOOT first. PGs DISTRIBUTE first.


Question #3. I'm glad you brought up Jason Kidd and helped shoot your own statement in the foot. Anyone who watches Kidd knows he's a great player, but also see's on the few jump shots he does take, He doesn't make many of them. Being a good player isn't the same as being a good shooter.

Then why are you continually bitching about his shooting which was the exact same thing I brought up about Kidd. I'm not exactly sure what "see's on the few jump shots he takes" means, but if you look thru Kidd's career in some years he took a LOT of shots...his 2nd season he took almost 1300 shots at a 38% clip. Felton's never shot that many shots in a season.

As a point of reference, Feltons took 997 shots this year with only 40 minutes less played then Kidd his 2nd year where he took 1293.


Question #4. How do you know he lives in the gym?? Have you seen his drivers license? Enough jokes, I have a question. Exempting his rookie year would you vote Raymond Felton most improved player on the Bobcats? I didn't question his work ethic or how hard he works on getting better. I said he hasn't shown the improvment over the last couple seasons,

Hmmm...I guess you DID say he hasn't shown improvement.

It's been reported ad nauseum that he's in the gym almost every day. I imagine everyone on this forum except you knows that.


Reguardless of coaching, He needs to advance his game play. When i said Something bout him actually takin the time to better himself i was pointing out the difference in getting better cuz of coaching and getting better cuz you put the time in to learn, adjust or work on your basketball skillz.

Again, what does "put the time in to learn" mean if not questioning his work ethic in getting better?

I think everyone on this forum thinks he needs to advance his game play. He also needs a system to do that in (which LB will provide).



The statement bout the team and the crappy coach....WHAT??


You've repeatedly said that regardless of the crappy coaching Felton should have made the team successful. I've argued that going from no offensive sets to a system will make everyone better. Larry Brown won't try to make Felton a shooting guard (at least he said he wouldn't). Brown won't say Mek is a 4 one week then a 5 the next. He'll give them consistency and teach them their role.

ATL is a prime example of what you've been arguing. Crappy coach, all similar players who don't have defined roles. They bring in an all star but yet they never really got better, only seeing success this past season.


Anytime else?

You ignore what we say has been detrimental to Felton's development, ignore the times he did well when he was left to play his position, you contradict yourself throughout your posts and make it all about FG% when we're talking about a PG.

What's the point?

[Ghost Kat]

Are you serious?

I questioned if i should even reply to any of that. Couple simple things. I don't know what you base your idea's on, But it seems to me the ability to shot a basketball at a high % is an important aspect of the game of basketball. I don't know what letters and words come up on your screen, But i'n not sure how i've contridicted myself, But I'm sure you can give me a few examples. My point about Felton through all the posts i've made since i joined, Have said i think he's a good player but not a good shooter. Jason Kidd is a passer. Has been for years. You can agree or disagree thats fine. But there are plenty other people reading this that agree and if i'm wrong tell me.


Career AveragesRebounds YRTMGGSMINFGFG%3P3P%FTFT%STLBLKTOPFOFFDEFTOTASTPTS 05-06CHA805430.04.3-11.0.3911.2-3.4.3582.0-2.8.7251.30.12.32.31.02.43.45.611.806-07CHA787536.45.0-13.1.3841.3-4.0.3302.6-3.3.7971.50.12.92.30.72.83.57.014.007-08CHA797937.75.2-12.6.4130.7-2.5.2803.3-4.1.8001.20.22.72.30.52.53.07.414.4 GGSMINFGFG%3P3P%FTFT%STLBLKTOPFOFFDEFTOTASTPTSTota ls 23720834.74.9-12.3.3961.1-3.3.3272.6-3.4.7781.30.12.62.30.72.53.26.613.4

Those are Feltons stats for all to see. What i have said this whole time is that he has improve very little from year to year. Now having watched him play for many years now i see he has a drive and desire. Reguardless of PG or SG he hasn't improved his shooting ability. Are you really happy with a .04% increase when your shooting in the low 40%. Since when did being able to shoot a basketball become something unimportant? He's not a seven footer. I ask again are you serious? Yes, he's suppose to be a point guard but he still has to shoot the ball at some point. That whole post.. i mean.. Are you serious?


Edited: These stats looked alot better when i copy / pasted them, I have now idea why it turned out like that.......

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2753

[dnbman]

I don't want to get into this debate, but I do want to address the shooting issue.

He raised his fg% by 3 points, a pretty significant gain. If he trends like he did in college, he'll be shooting closer to 45% in the next year or two. 45% from a pg would be appreciated by just about every coach in the league. If he got it up to just 43% but provided steady floor leadership, I'd be more than happy.

[Ghost Kat]

Not exactly.....Felton shot 39% his rookie year......38% his second year and 41% last year. 43-45% would be nice from the PG spot, But Felton has never been anywhere close to that.

[dnbman]

Not exactly.....Felton shot 39% his rookie year......38% his second year and 41% last year. 43-45% would be nice from the PG spot, But Felton has never been anywhere close to that.

I said:

If he trends like he did in college, he'll be shooting closer to 45% in the next year or two. 45% from a pg would be appreciated by just about every coach in the league. If he got it up to just 43% but provided steady floor leadership, I'd be more than happy.

His fg% in college:

39.8%
40.0%
45.5%

As he gets omfortable in the offense, his shooting will go up. As I said, I'd be happy with 43% shooting. Given an offense where everyone knows their role and the system makes sense, I'd expect at least a one or two point increase.

Also, Felton improved his 3fg% by 14 points his junior year. That was from college 3 line, but I'm expecting a modest gain in his 3% as well.

[Ghost Kat]

Even though your quoting college stat's I'll agree with you, A new offensive format should get easier shots for the whole team.

[BeebCats]

Like everybody said, his FG% is partly due to the lack of coaching. When there are no offensive sets, people don't get good shots. This translates to a bad FG%. When the offense falls apart and he's forced to take a contested buzzer beater, you can bet on it not helping him out.

And one of the contradictions in your post that spectre was pointing out is:


Question #1. Did I say i saw NO improvment? If thats not what i said don't jump that far. I asked a question, you didn't exactly answer it. I said has he made his overall game better.
I said he hasn't shown the improvment over the last couple seasons,

[Ghost Kat]

Ok.. But saying He hasn't made the improvements to make him a better player and leader aren't the same as saying he has shown no improvment at all.Which I have never said. Either I messed up and didn't do a good enough job making my point clear or your looking for any little thing that seems like i flip flopped. But I'll give you that one. But that second quote you used...U left out the end of the sentence.

Tony Parker...Ya'll remember when he first came to the NBA... He got into the paint any time he wanted to But he wasn't a good jump shooter. He has worked on his shot the last couple of yrs and now has more confidence and shots a better %. Felton could do the same thing. But all his yrs in the league he has shot a low %, He wasn't the best jump shooter in college either. Now it's easy to blame that on coaching and set plays and i'll agree it play'd a part. But I've play'd basketball like I'm sure most of you have. The coach or the play doesn't have anything to do with the fundamentlas of shooting a basketball. Yes plays help u get open. Look at Kobe as a example, He hits alot of jump shots that are contested. He didn't make that shot cuz of his coach or the play tht was run. He makes the shot cuz he's a good shooter....Felton is not a good shooter.

[spectre]

Felton is not a good shooter.

Has anyone argued against that at all?

All he has to do is raise his FG% up by approx. 2-3 points and then he'd be more than adequate. If we're talking 1000 shots per season then that would be 20-30 more makes. He can get that with Larry Brown (and I'll tie it together below).

Since he's a POINT GUARD however, there's other things that's more important IMO than having a high FG% and one is running the team. In order for him to do that players have to know their roles. They have to learn spacing and they have to learn how to set a pick.

Enter Coach Larry Brown.

He will teach the team how to get into position in different situations and how to react. He will open up the offense. There'll be more ball movement and player movement. This will provide better opportunities for everyone including Felton. Less rushed shots, less contested shots=better FG%.

Hell, just imagine what pulling the bigs out of the paint will do for Felton's drives and his % of makes there?

This is what you've been ignoring and why this thread has been so frustrating.

[Ghost Kat]

The reason why you are frustrated is because you consistently try to argue a point that i'm not. You are the one that has been saying FG % isn't that important or atleast not as imortant as running an offense.But common sense will tell you at some point in that offense He will have to shoot the ball, Unless you never want him to score and just get 10 plus assists.
From what i've read this is your arguement, If i'm wrong tell me.....
Felton has a low % cuz of coaching. They put him in the wrong spots and didnt have plays for him to run and thats why he doesn't shoot the ball very well. U speak of me consistently ignoring facts, but your not using common sense. Someone trying to prove a point posted Felton UNC shooting % and it was just as low as his NBA %. Now are you telling me Roy Williams was just as bad as Vincent and Bickerstaff?

Are to telling me the Reggie Millers and Larry birds, the Micheal Redd's and Dell Curry's and other known shooters are only good shooters cuz of coaches and plays run?? Come thats silly....You keep saying he is a point guard and? Steve Nash is a point guard and he can shoot. Steve Nash doesn't have to run plays either, But thats just an example. This whole post my only real argument is he can't shoot and everyone has given all kinds of reason why his % is so low. But that only account for half if that much of the reason why, the real reason...He can't shoot. Shaq has been practicing shooting free throws for yrs and he still shoots bricks. Don't blame coaches and plays without blaming the player too. I'll hopefully end your frustration with this statement....I think the reason he doesn't shot well is he rushs him jumper. He's a ok FT shooter so maybe a calmer Larry Brown offense will increase his %, Only time will tell.

[dnbman]

The reason why you are frustrated is because you consistently try to argue a point that i'm not. You are the one that has been saying FG % isn't that important or atleast not as imortant as running an offense.But common sense will tell you at some point in that offense He will have to shoot the ball, Unless you never want him to score and just get 10 plus assists.
From what i've read this is your arguement, If i'm wrong tell me.....
Felton has a low % cuz of coaching. They put him in the wrong spots and didnt have plays for him to run and thats why he doesn't shoot the ball very well. U speak of me consistently ignoring facts, but your not using common sense. Someone trying to prove a point posted Felton UNC shooting % and it was just as low as his NBA %. Now are you telling me Roy Williams was just as bad as Vincent and Bickerstaff?

Are to telling me the Reggie Millers and Larry birds, the Micheal Redd's and Dell Curry's and other known shooters are only good shooters cuz of coaches and plays run?? Come thats silly....You keep saying he is a point guard and? Steve Nash is a point guard and he can shoot. Steve Nash doesn't have to run plays either, But thats just an example. This whole post my only real argument is he can't shoot and everyone has given all kinds of reason why his % is so low. But that only account for half if that much of the reason why, the real reason...He can't shoot. Shaq has been practicing shooting free throws for yrs and he still shoots bricks. Don't blame coaches and plays without blaming the player too. I'll hopefully end your frustration with this statement....I think the reason he doesn't shot well is he rushs him jumper. He's a ok FT shooter so maybe a calmer Larry Brown offense will increase his %, Only time will tell.

I think what people are trying to say is that with a bad offense, he's forced to take more shots than he's comfortable with. The point about the UNC stats was to show how much he grew over his career. When he shot 45%, he actually increased his overall shots and nearly tripled his 3 point attempts. Once he becomes comfortable with the offense, which has been non-existent so far in his career, he'll be a better shooter.

No, he'll never be Dell Curry or Michael Redd, but those are some of the best guys in the league. What he will be is a guy who has an OK stroke and people cringe when he puts the ball up.

[spectre]

Someone trying to prove a point posted Felton UNC shooting % and it was just as low as his NBA %. Now are you telling me Roy Williams was just as bad as Vincent and Bickerstaff?

Felton's last year under Williams he shot 45.5% FG and 44% from 3 pt.

[Ghost Kat]

Bout the UNC stat's I know the point you were trying to make. But the year he shot 45 % was the championship yr. It's arguable if he was really the 3rd or 4th option on that team so he didn't need to shoot alot. I wasn't saying we can turn Felton into Micheal Redd somehow, Just another point of reference. I have agreed that Larry Brown will put in a system that should make the offense an actually offensive this year instead of you go there and i'll throw you the ball. But to say that coaching and plays are the only reason he has not shot well is a little dishonest and i think thats why this thread has gone as far as it has.

[spectre]

It's arguable if he was really the 3rd or 4th option on that team so he didn't need to shoot alot.

Third or fourth option is what he should be on this team as well, in part because of his not so dependable jump shot. IMO that's what Brown will make him, and because of that he won't need to shoot a lot.

I think we've kind of come around to similar thinking.

[Slam]

I agree with a lot of what CarolinaKat (http://www.bobcatsplanet.com/vb/member.php?u=1059) is saying.

Felts didn't show much improvement at all over his first 2 3/4 seasons. He kept making the same mistake he always made. He took shoots against the flow of our offense and at the most inopportune times. He drove into trouble again and again throwing up stupid no look circus shots that didn't even go close to going in. He kept trying and looking for contact when he drove rather than looking to finish. Game after game he'd drive wayyyyyy too deep into the paint, get caught under the back board almost on the baseline with no where to go. He'd have brain farts and roll the ball of his ankle for no reason. He's lose the handle on his dribble with no one around while trying to yo-yo the ball. He'd hold the ball and run the shot clock down. He wouldn't make the "right" pass quick enough to the open man. He'd get sloppy and get called for offensive fouls when he had the dribble for pushing off people.

He had some great moments, but all in all he was very below average and it was the same game in game out - regardless of if he was playing the 1, 2 or any other position, there was little improvement.

But then that last two or so months of last season, he showed obvious improvement. His drives were well timed and well spaced. He got others involved. He didn't lose focus and stayed switched on for the entire length of a game cutting down on the brain farts. He led well, he passed the ball better and was more mature.

So I agree that there wasn't improvement for what seemed like the longest time, I was amazed to see the improvement he made over a short period of time. If he could do that so quickly, it's not unreasonable to think that he will really turn it around this season and "get it".

So as far as I am concerned, the first three years are a wash, he's had his warm up, now it's time for him to step up and based on that quick improvement over the last two months of last season, I can see him proving all of the doubters very wrong.