Controversial Statement to discuss [Archive]

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ohara831

11-22-2008, 11:45 PM

Guys, I'm gonna say something that may first make you crap yourself, but if you think about it, you might agree. Fine Ham Biscuit was a pretty bad coach, and he lost the team, and needed to go. Not in question. But, I am beginning to think we were wrong in one aspect. He was bad, but not as bad as we made him out to be. My evidence:

1. FHB coached the yr without Ammo, May, DJ or Ajinca. The Hall Of Famer LB has them all 4 (well, not May fully) and has them playing just as bad record-wise. They are just as bad on offense this season as they were last season. Yes, I know J-Rich has missed the last few games, but we were still bad on offense with him. Just not in sync.

2. FHB was brutalized by us all for his constantly moving around the starting lineups and we all said "the team will play better if you just start the same guys so they know who is starting and everyone knows their roles." Well, LB moves around his starting lineup, too. Are we going to hammer him as hard? No, it gets discussed and questioned, but we all defer to LB since he's a sure fire Hall of Famer. Not really very fair of us, is it?

3. We questioned certain lineups FHB used during the games, and blasted him for them. Well, has LB not used some eyebrow raising lineups at times? Like tonight, half way thru the 4th qtr, why did he pull Crash out for Ammo? Ammo stunk tonight and Crash was playing well enough. I did not get the game, so if it was injury related, I stand corrected.

4. We berated FHB for saying things publicly about the players, and how certain things should be kept in the locker room and not made public. But hasn't LB said the same? He blasted May for not being in shape, and benched Carroll and May from starting lineups as they were not holding up their end of things.

5. We are quick to point out little things to make us feel better, but are we not just fooling ourselves. Many posts seem to focus on "LB has us playing better defense." But guys, we are still the 5th worse record in the NBA. Is our defense better and offense worse? Or, are we just "thinking" we are better defensively, when in reality we are just as bad?

Now, this whole issue of FHB is sure to give some of us flashbacks and make us nauseated. But I just want to be fair. Like I said, he was not a really good coach, and he had lost the team. He needed to be fired and MJ did the right thing. My only point here is that it is healthy to do self reflection now and then to keep your bearings. I think that we were "too harsh" on FHB in a few areas, and we are failing to be critical enough of LB. Let us be fair all the way around. Has LB lost something - his edge?

OK, blast me to bits if you want to, but if you are being honest with yourself, I truly think you will see a good bit of truth in what I have pointed out.

WarioVsMooChicken

11-23-2008, 12:01 AM

TheBeagle

11-23-2008, 12:23 AM

I've thought about this some too, and I was even thinking of starting a thread like this titled "Somewhere there's a smiling Ham Biscuit."

1. Actually we're 3 games off last season's pace right now (3-9 vs. 6-6), and the offense, in terms of PPG has to be worse than last season's. I still think the offense looked a lot more in synch this season when JRich is healthy than it did at any point last season, so I'll disagree with that point.

2. He's had to switch the lineup around because of Sean May's conditioning and JD being undersized, not to mention JRich's injury, or whatever the hell it is that's keeping him out (the scope found no damage, yet he's missing 2 or more weeks? WTF?!?!) There was no method to Vincent's madness in his lineup switches, not to mention him forgetting he could use his bench once in a while.

3. Yeah, Coach has had some weird lineups. Why not play Lexy anymore in the 2nd half vs. Bucks than he did, as another example. If these strange moves continue, I will get on Larry's back....just give it time.

4. This has always been a calling card of Larry's; this is where he gets a pass because he's a HOFer and Vincent hadn't earned that ability with his lack of winning, experience at the NBA level, etc.

5. This defense isn't any better this year, no, as the Atlanta game proved...how many open 3s can a team give up like we did to them? Love the traps Coach sets up, which I never saw under Vincent, but neither coach can give players such as Matt or JD or Ammo speed and fleet feet to guard quicker players. "Slow to react" has been the Bobcats tagline on defense since they've been a team, and it hasn't changed this year.

**************

Good post to bring up, and you definitely won't get berrated by me at least since I, like I said above, have been wondering myself what Hammy's reaction is to how the Cats have started out this year. Vindication? Glee? Indifference?

He was definitely not the right guy for the job, I feel, and had to go, no two ways about it, but it is possible Larry isn't what this team needed, though I don't think that's the case. I think the roster is the problem, as now 3 coaches have been with a large group of these guys and never gotten more out of them than hustle and some scrappy wins and a few surprising wins. That's why I'm all over MJ's ass, along with Coach, and think the team needs a roster overhaul (not necessarily drastic, but at least one or two players exiting) in order to advance towards respectability....a coach can only do so much, after all. Plus, Larry's two draft picks are really coming along and looking nice, and IMO are justified picks, and his signing of Shannon Brown and trading Kyle for a 2nd rounder is looking great as well....Larry's roster moves have sure looked a lot better than that which has come before (excepting JRich trade of course!), so why not let him continue to fix the team? Especially since this is his full-time job as opposed to MJ :cool:

BRNC

11-23-2008, 12:27 AM

I've had a real problem listening to LB whine (and yes I said whine) about our lack of big guys but have yet to see extended play of Twiggy or AA with EO50 at the same time...I'd actually like to see a couple of our big guys play together and one PG and one SG...I'm sure it is just me but I'd like to see no McMay and try some of the big guys together and then I'd have a better idea who we need to cut/trade/give up on..and as far as my whine comment LB is the one that insisted we draft a PG first when there were some bigs available so yes I consider it whining at this point since it was his decision to draft DJ...

davcbow

11-23-2008, 12:51 AM

You guys are comparing apples to oranges.... LB will get this team in shape if MJ and the FO will work with him and get the talent we need to do the job with...:cool:

BobcatsAllDay

11-23-2008, 03:59 AM

You guys are comparing apples to oranges.... LB will get this team in shape if MJ and the FO will work with him and get the talent we need to do the job with...:cool:

That's the problem, nobody wants what we have to give. Anybody w/ slight vision can see we have been trying to make moves but nobody is biting and we really have very little to offer at this point. I said it before, fans wanted Crash and Oak back and the FO wrote the checks and that's where we stand. Work your magic LB.

ohara831

11-23-2008, 06:53 AM

You guys are comparing apples to oranges.... LB will get this team in shape if MJ and the FO will work with him and get the talent we need to do the job with...:cool:

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Well, for that matter, what if FHB had a few better players to use? That statement goes both ways, not just towards LB's ability.

davcbow

11-23-2008, 08:40 AM

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Well, for that matter, what if FHB had a few better players to use? That statement goes both ways, not just towards LB's ability.

LB has the proven credentials and the experience to teach the new guys and the proven know how to properly put a team together. He also has the pull to lure good free agents into Charlotte, do you think Biscuit had that ability or any ability in that matter? It's not LB's fault the team has several bad contracts (which is partly due to the Nazr trade biscuit wanted) and only a few players that could be used in trades to better the team. As it stands right now it looks like no one wants any of our players in trades. So to me right now we are stuck playing the way we are having to play at the moment. We need a PF and we also are with out our leading scorer due to his injury. We can't do anything in the low post so we are stuck having to play mostly in the perimeter. Now unless we can sign someone good or get someone good in a trade we only have next years draft of which we had better draft a PF. If biscuit would have been the coach this season would we have drafted DJ and Lex or would he drafted better or worse? I think we would be a lot worse off than we are now if biscuit was still around. Its all apples to oranges....:cool:

kjk2241

11-23-2008, 09:35 AM

Basically, we are talking about 12 games. 12 games is not enough to judge a coach. 12 games is not enough to even know what type of players we have. 12 games is not enough for DJ to start feeling comfortable. 12 games is not enough for AMMO to get his rythm back. 12 games is not enough time for us to start making crazing make believe trades where we get a great guy and give up the crap we don't want. 12 games is not enough time to say our season is over.

Overall, just talk to me after the season.

ammofan

11-23-2008, 09:43 AM

so far:

FHB= FAIL
LB= FAIL

SWedd523

11-23-2008, 10:06 AM

LB has earned the right to whine and complain. That's what being in coaching for 400 years will get you. Would you have more patience for your son/daughter complaining, or for your 65 year old mother/father?:g:

P.S. Ham Biscuit is the MAN!!! :D

SWedd523

11-23-2008, 10:08 AM

2 PGs in starting lineup last year = Vincent was retarded
2 PGs in starting lineup this year = Brown just wants the most of his players

Vincent was the worst coach ever, but so far, Larry Brown hasn't looked too good either.

Felton+Augustin at this point is better than any 2PG setup The Biscuit had. Besides, Richardson isn't playing anyway, would you rather trot Carroll out there instead of either one of those two?

ohara831

11-23-2008, 10:32 AM

But Swedd, Vincent didn't have DJ to team with Ray. He was stuck with what the FO gave him. Can't fairly argue the 2 PG set up from that respect.

WarioVsMooChicken

11-23-2008, 10:59 AM

Felton+Augustin at this point is better than any 2PG setup The Biscuit had. Besides, Richardson isn't playing anyway, would you rather trot Carroll out there instead of either one of those two?

If Carrol was playing as good as normal, yes.

Felton at SG sucks 9 times out of 10. We should start Brown or Morrison at SG.

ammofan

11-23-2008, 11:08 AM

LB has Felts and DJ and FHB had Felts and McInnis.

SWedd523

11-23-2008, 11:40 AM

If Carrol was playing as good as normal, yes.

Felton at SG sucks 9 times out of 10. We should start Brown or Morrison at SG.
Brown is NOT a starter in any way, shape, or form. There's no way that he could play better than Felton, no way in hell.

Morrison is a 6th man. He isn't a starter either. Ray is a starter, so he starts with DJ when Swish is out. It sucks to have to have both of them out there. But I'd rather have the 2 PG than start someone who isn't as good as either of those 2 PG's

Felton sucked at SG 9 times out of 10 with McCinnis. DJ is way better than him. Seems like to me, at least this year, Felton has performed pretty good when he's out there with Augustin

WarioVsMooChicken

11-23-2008, 11:43 AM

PG: Felton - DJ - Brown
SG: JRich - Morrison - Carrol - Brown
SF: Wallace - Morrison - Dudley - Carrol
PF: Okafor - May (If he ever gets healthy) - Ajinca - Wallace - Dudley
C: Hollins - Okafor - Ajinca - Nazr

That should be our depth chart.

WarioVsMooChicken

11-23-2008, 11:46 AM

Brown is NOT a starter in any way, shape, or form. There's no way that he could play better than Felton, no way in hell.

Morrison is a 6th man. He isn't a starter either. Ray is a starter, so he starts with DJ when Swish is out. It sucks to have to have both of them out there. But I'd rather have the 2 PG than start someone who isn't as good as either of those 2 PG's

Felton sucked at SG 9 times out of 10 with McCinnis. DJ is way better than him. Seems like to me, at least this year, Felton has performed pretty good when he's out there with Augustin

Brown has looked good. You're gonna continually lose with Felton as a SG. SGs are meant to score, which Brown can do.

We have no offense, I'm tired of people saying we need better defense. Our defense is fine. We need some scoring and rebounding. Putting Brown or Morrison in at SG when JRich is hurt would at least put points on the board.

BRNC

11-23-2008, 11:47 AM

It is not a question (for me) which is the better coach...LB has a proven record and FHB was simply out of his league...

My problem has to do with LB coming to a team knowing the strengths and weaknesses and then complains about the weakness as if we all did not already know them...

He was hired before the team offered EO50 his contract and must of been in favor of that contract (since we did not pursue any sign and trades)...IMO there is not that much talent difference between the Bobcats and the Knicks but Mike D’Antoni has the Knicks playing competetive BB...I realize that D’Antoni is an offensive coach and LB is a defensive coach but you still Have to coach with the players you have!!!

The Knicks seemed capable and able to trade some pretty crappy contracts so I have serious doubts about our ability to trade some of ours but from what I get out of LB and our FO we had no desire to trade for any of the players that have changed teams (Harrington and Z-Bo) or did not have players we were willing to trade for them (although what the Knicks and Warriors each took back is kinda questionable)...

When the season started I was (still am) willing to sit back and watch 15-20 games to get a feel for what we are trying to accomplish as a team...I do think that the players are trying to play better D and the in game defensive rotations are better and will eventually show up stat wise...

What I question is LBs desire to design an offensive scheme to take advantage of the weapons we do have...JRich hurt is a problem...but I'm watching too much dribbling on the perimeter (by DJ and Raymond)...too many drives by the same two players where their shot is blocked rather than kicking the ball back out etc...so if it were me I think I'd try playing them one at a time and get a little more creative offensively rather than have them simply dribble down the clock and get shots blocked driving the lane!:g:

He had control of the draft so if he wanted a more immediate impact with a big (other than Ajinca) he could/should have drafted one...

ohara831

11-23-2008, 01:06 PM

Brown has looked good. You're gonna continually lose with Felton as a SG. SGs are meant to score, which Brown can do.

We have no offense, I'm tired of people saying we need better defense. Our defense is fine. We need some scoring and rebounding. Putting Brown or Morrison in at SG when JRich is hurt would at least put points on the board.

Our Defense is ranked 23rd. That cannot qualify as fine. And our scoring is ranked 26th. your are correct that we have a problem there, too. These were before the game last night, so they may have changed a little one way or the other.

bfer

11-23-2008, 02:55 PM

dav7z

11-23-2008, 02:57 PM

We just 11 games into the year . Lets give Brown a chance be for we round up the lynch party ??

drunkbum

11-23-2008, 03:01 PM

Brown is NOT a starter in any way, shape, or form. There's no way that he could play better than Felton, no way in hell.

Brown can start..... He did a good job last year starting for James when he was out with Cleveland and his game as improved since then..... He has proven in a few games this year he can play better than Felton so I dont get the anyway, shape, form, or no way in hell.....

I think the reason you see Felton and DJ starting is because this way LB can start moving Felton to the bench..... DJ is not ready to start and Felton is there to help him out if need be but once Jrich gets back your going to see DJ starting and Felton coming off the bench.....

SWedd523

11-23-2008, 03:32 PM

Brown can start..... He did a good job last year starting for James when he was out with Cleveland and his game as improved since then..... He has proven in a few games this year he can play better than Felton so I dont get the anyway, shape, form, or no way in hell.....

I think the reason you see Felton and DJ starting is because this way LB can start moving Felton to the bench..... DJ is not ready to start and Felton is there to help him out if need be but once Jrich gets back your going to see DJ starting and Felton coming off the bench.....
Shannon Brown is NOT better than Raymond Felton, plain and simple.

Keetch

11-23-2008, 04:28 PM

im sorry, but worst thread ever. Larry is not the reason for our crappy start, it is the players. Larry also is the only piece that is keeping us in the McDy sweepstakes. Also, he helped us with the Hornets game-no way Sam could do that.

Also, he is pushing the front office to make changes and really make some bold moves to shuffle up the line up. He has been the biggest bright spot so far on this team.

Sorry but I agree with Bfer. This doesn't even warrant discussing; though it had to gurgle up I guess. FHB had no clue how to coach a professional NBA basketball team.

I am completely honored to have a coach of LB's stature on this team; completely honored. Now we just need some time for coaching and some serious players....Coach knows how to coach a team as a unit and give it the tools it needs to succeed, on a strategic game level and on a personnel level. But it takes time to put compatible and talented parts together to attain that success. We've only just touched the surface of that process. This "team" had no clue how to play together after the FHB debacle, and is now seeing how truly poor it was for that.

With FHB there was no process, and no hope of success.

I wish the Bobcats were better, and Larry didn't have to suffer the losses like he does. I wish LB could endure the losses better in front of the media. Unfortunately that's never been his style, and its not going to change. We shouldn't be the least bit surprised by any of this. It was almost pre-ordained.

Ultimately he's still a winner though, even through his idiosyncacies. I just hope as a community of fans that we have the patience to endure these losses. I fear that we don't. With this group of players, at their current skill level; it gets pretty ugly out there; and when its ugly its not fun to watch.

Keetch

11-23-2008, 04:32 PM

Comparing Shannon Brown to Raymond Felton?!

Well, one can't bring the ball up against Chauncey Billups, the other can.

Other than that, their different players. SB is an SG and RF is a PG!

And on any given night; given the opportunity, both of them can send you home a loser. However, with Felton you have a 50% chance of getting a solid game.

And that's not good enough.

ohara831

11-23-2008, 05:05 PM

Keetch, you just made my point. You said "with this group of players". That is precisely what I am saying. LB has the same guys, PLUS Ammo, DJ, Ajinca, and May (sort of). So we should be doing much better under the Hall of Famer coach. But we have a worse record. That is why I bring this up. You and bfer can be honored to have him as the Bobcats coach all you want, but that wont bring wins. I think he is a Hall of Famer too, but he's not showing much to us right now. And we crucified FHB for things which we give LB a pass on. Back then we blamed the coach, now we blame the players?

spectre

11-23-2008, 05:21 PM

As usual, what Keetch (and bfer) said.

Our schedule was a lot easier last year for one thing. Another is LB is trying to get this team to play in an actual system vs. the "just work hard" streetball that Bernie and the Idiot employed. Larry (unlike the Idiot) is trying to build us a team that plays as a unit and is for the future. He's not as worried about winning now vs. having a product that will have a real chance to compete (management is another story).

In short, we'll be better for the long run...this isn't necessarily about "now".

Some of us have said it before and obviously it bears repeating: Larry Brown's ass parked on the sidelines will NOT make this team a contender. It's going to take a lot of time, work and most likely personel changes.

I feel very fortunate that LB is our coach...one of the real solid wins this franchise has ever had.

ILBIT

WarioVsMooChicken

11-23-2008, 06:01 PM

Shannon Brown is NOT better than Raymond Felton, plain and simple.

Brown is better at playing SG, Felton is better at PG.

SWedd523

11-23-2008, 06:20 PM

drunkbum

11-23-2008, 11:20 PM

Shannon Brown is NOT better than Raymond Felton, plain and simple.

Im not comparing the two, I was saying shannon as had games where he played better than raymond....

The only time shannon as been a point guard is his senior year in high school.... Thats why i was saying this raymond at sg in the starting lineup is just a way to move him to the bench....

SWedd523

11-23-2008, 11:41 PM

Im not comparing the two, I was saying shannon as had games where he played better than raymond....

The only time shannon as been a point guard is his senior year in high school.... Thats why i was saying this raymond at sg in the starting lineup is just a way to move him to the bench....

I get what you're saying.. not a problem there. You just have a different take on them than I do.:shrug:

Hell even IIII have had better games than Felts;)

TheBeagle

11-24-2008, 12:34 AM

You guys are comparing apples to oranges.... LB will get this team in shape if MJ and the FO will work with him and get the talent we need to do the job with...:cool: Be more specific who you call "you guys," as this is exactly what I said in my post, sir.....at least the part about letting Coach control roster moves making us a more successful team in the future; if you're going to criticize, make sure you have facts to back up your criticism...or be more specific in regards to whom you are criticizing.

TheBeagle

11-24-2008, 01:11 AM

The points both daves, Keetch, spectre, and probably some others too (sorry if I left you out!) jive with mine, but I disagree with bfer that this is a terrible thread. While I don't agree with ohara's proposition that FHB might not've been as bad a coach as he was made out to be (I think he was without doubt), this thread is a good way to access how us fans feel about the direction of our precarious franchise.

I'd have to say, if I'd known we'd be 3-9 at this point, I would've been pissed, but I'm seeing things in the way Larry does things (the rookie experiment as a great example!!) that make me feel hopeful, as I stated on the Atlanta game thread. We are in the midst of some of the ugliest looking Bobcats ball since year 2's single win January, but, in my mind at least, I just don't feel that bad about where this team is headed with Larry.

I think the most significant reason (depending on how much longer JRich is out) for what may indeed be a drop in wins for the second straight year is the paradigm shift that is occurring under Coach, which Keetch discusses in the following:

Now we just need some time for coaching and some serious players....Coach knows how to coach a team as a unit and give it the tools it needs to succeed, on a strategic game level and on a personnel level. But it takes time to put compatible and talented parts together to attain that success. We've only just touched the surface of that process. This "team" had no clue how to play together after the FHB debacle, and is now seeing how truly poor it was for that.

And spectre as well:

Another is LB is trying to get this team to play in an actual system vs. the "just work hard" streetball that Bernie and the Idiot employed. Larry (unlike the Idiot) is trying to build us a team that plays as a unit and is for the future. He's not as worried about winning now vs. having a product that will have a real chance to compete (management is another story).

In short, we'll be better for the long run...this isn't necessarily about "now".

Like Bonnell remarked in the article on Larry when he was hired (and reiterated in a recent blog), Gminski told him that Larry's m.o. is to break his teams down to the point that they either break their bad habits, or they get in the doghouse, and then he builds those that "get" it back up looking nothing like the team that was there before (both figuratively and literally).

As long as Larry is taking shots at MJ in the press, as long as he starts guys who deserve to be starting and not because convention says they should, as long as he's working the sidelines more in the first quarter of a game than FHB did all last season, I'm loving these Cats :biggrin:

****************

All in all, a good thread for the meaningful dialogue that has occurred here, and not just another damn "trade" thread.....you want to talk about useless threads? I'm your huckleberry when it comes to the multitude of "trade x for y" that clogs the boards where nothing is accomplished.

bfer

11-24-2008, 10:39 AM

Sam was a terrible coach all around and I dont believe we were too hard on him. Fortunately, we have a HOF coach to help the team get better. Are we doing better now? No, definitly not but dont think we need to compare the two coaches. We were pretty accurate with our issues on Sam, but Larry is a different coach than him.