The Morning After

[Ampsportsduo]

I needed a night and a lil Cuervo to full digest the big Bobcats trade. I awoke today, not upset, but optimistic.

It's been just over twelve hours since the great shakeup of '08 began for the Bobcats. Reactions have ranged from reserved optimism to outrage, but regardless of what some of the pundits are saying, this trade is a positive for this team. The immediate concern for the team will be scoring and who will take the big shot, but in all other aspects the team should be improved.

Phoenix fans are ecstatic that the team finally has the shooting guard they've longed for, but also because they remember Golden State J-Rich. He's no longer the high flyer and attacks the basket only in spurts. He's become more Allan Houston than a poor man's Kobe. The trade that acquired him was designed to give the Cats a go-to scorer late in games, but more importantly it was to make the team a relevant threat to make the playoffs, which it never did. Already in this young season, he's been out because of that pesky knee that has plagued him since he came to Charlotte. Jason has aged in front of our eyes, and appears to be doing so at a rate approaching Mel Gibson in Forever Young. Slight exaggerations aside, if his knee became a chronic issue, his large contract would have become the albatross on the team through 2011. His 19 points/game will be missed by a team that already struggles to score, but statistically he provided little else. By the time this team was in position to be a contender in the East, J-Rich would've been a mere shell of the electric player he once was in Golden State.

I hate to see Jared Dudley go. He made all types of plays when he was on the floor, and that's the best compliment you can pay a player, but his trade value would never be higher, nor will his minutes/game. Personal feelings aside, he's still a role player in this league. He could make the open shot, has a high basketball IQ, but will constantly be plagued by the lack of a good position for him.

On the flip side, the Bobcats gained two players who have started in the Western Conference Finals, bringing with them more playoff experience than the entire Bobcats roster. The acquisitions improve the team's defense and the loss on the offensive end should be marginal. Raja's a capable 3-point shooter and the team's offense generates spot up opportunities through which he should excel. Boris Diaw's ability to effectively score out of the pick and roll will be a welcome addition since so much of the team's offense is predicated on it. Diaw also has the ability to stretch the defense opening driving lanes for the point guards, another primary element of the Larry Brown offense. With Steve Nash, Amare, and Shaq these guys were not primary options on the offensive end, something that could change here in Charlotte. Diaw responded during the 2005-06 season, some will say because of impending free agency, but also because he was out of the shadow of Amare. Free of that shadow, Diaw should again emerge as a legitimate starter in this league. A perceived throw-in Sean Singletary could also prove to be a steal in this trade. He's young, but Larry saw something in him to specifically target him. Don't forget that it was also Larry who wanted DJ, whose had one of the brightest rookie campaigns this season.

It's tough to watch a fan favorite go, but J-Rich's deaprture should prove to be a positive in the long run for the team. He will thrive in Phoenix as a secondary option on the offensive end, but this should not be interpreted as a failure of the team's front office. The situations both teams find themselves in are dramatically different. The value of this trade must be judged solely on the incoming Bobcats performance.It's difficult to say how the remainder of the season will play out, because the team doesn't appear to be done wheeling and dealing, but the future in Charlotte is brighter, even if one of the brightest stars to ever don the uniform is departing.

As an aside, a tip of the cap and a thank you to J-Rich and Duds for everything they gave the fans on the court and off.

[davcbow]

Thanks Amp, that's what I feel too but I just couldn't put it into words....:cool:

[ohara831]

I think that was very well spoken. I think your sentiments reflect the views of many Cats fans.

[Mustachio]

I too think that Diaw is a very capable player when he gets the minutes. And i think it goes without saying that... he found some minutes here. Lets hope hes out to prove something. And really I think the French Connection (kick ass new nickname im taking credit for) with Ajinca will do him wonders. Kind of similiar players really, and seeing how aggressive Diaw is will only help AA. Cannot wait for the first debut of the French Connection when Okafor goes to the bench for a breather.

Im happy for Jrich and Dude. They seem very happy (which kind of hurts) and its good for both of them I think. He will thrive in that situation with a team just beggin for his kind of skills. and Dude can thrive on any team. Ill miss Dude the most.

Jrich wasn't the takeover guy we all dreamed he could be here, he is one year older and his contract wasn't his best quality for sure. I just think that moving him now might have been the best thing the Bobcats can do. We got younger (which i know BigSlam will hate) but we got more experienced at the same time. These guys know how to win... or at least they've been in winning situations and thats not something you can really say for any of the current Bobcats.

I think its only a matter of time before everyone is on this bandwagon.

My main defense for all those people who just hate this move and think the Bobcats Front Office is retarded..... "can it really get any worse than it was?" cheer up ... the only thing you can do now is hope for the best. So shut up and let it unfold for a bit.

[Dead_Real]

I do think Jason should have a monster year with them having Amare and Shaq dominating the paint while he lights it up from behind the arch. Dudley should learn a lot from the veteran Hill as well good for both guys. I'm having a hard time seeing the positives on our end we'll just have to wait & see.

[Slam]

I was feeling better about this morning............until I read this:


"It definitely wasn't as fun," Diaw said. "It wasn't as exciting for the fans. It's not as fun for everybody (on the team). I'll always remember Phoenix with (previous coach) Mike (D'Antoni). We went from a winning team that was the most exciting team in the league to a half-winning team that wasn't exciting at all."

Not sure how motivated he will be here. Hopefully VERY. We'll need him to be.

I'm also worried about who will score points and how they will score them. On paper we are a better team defensively, but now we pretty much have no one who can "bail us out" of the shot clock situations we put ourseleves in or who can really create their own shot the way that Swish could.

I'm still better about it today than I was last night, but still not great.

If you know what I mean?

[Ampsportsduo]

the French Connection (kick ass new nickname im taking credit for)

I smell a photoshop contest.

[Slam]

Already in this young season, he's been out because of that pesky knee that has plagued him since he came to Charlotte.
What?!?!?!?!

He played all 82 games last year?

[Dead_Real]

^Exactly besides defense we really don't improve in the area that has hurt us the most this year finding ways to score the ball.

[Slam]

We got younger (which i know BigSlam will hate) but we got more experienced at the same time.
How did we get younger? Diaw and Swish are around the same age and Raja is about 8 years older than Dude?

[Slam]

My main defense for all those people who just hate this move and think the Bobcats Front Office is retarded..... "can it really get any worse than it was?" cheer up ... the only thing you can do now is hope for the best. So shut up and let it unfold for a bit.
And for all the people that say "it couldn't get any worse than it was".......then why has EVERYONE said they have seen an IMPROVEMENT in the team since last year and even the start of this season?

I 've been reading a lot about "kneejerks" - this smacks of it. We didn't even let the dust settle on a new era and instead traded the best player ever to play for the Bobcats.

[Mustachio]

And for all the people that say "it couldn't get any worse than it was".......then why has EVERYONE said they have seen an IMPROVEMENT in the team since last year and even the start of this season?

I 've been reading a lot about "kneejerks" - this smacks of it. We didn't even let the dust settle on a new era and instead traded the best player ever to play for the Bobcats.


the team looked better sure... but better than what? a 33 win team?

I am not knee jerking. I just think that if we are gonna follow a plan and become a team... then we might as well commit to what Larry has in mind. I just don't think losing Jrich is as big of a blow to us as some people think.

on PAPER it may not appear to be the best move. but in Larry's mind it might be a great move. and I would rather trust Larry's mind than paper any day.

[Chef]

i said in in the hope for the bobcats post, maybe we won't trade away core players for a mediocre pf in a hasty trade. looks like we did. i wonder if we asked utah if they wanted jrich for boozer? especially now that milsap has shown he can play.

[Slam]

I am not knee jerking. I just think that if we are gonna follow a plan and become a team... then we might as well commit to what Larry has in mind. I just don't think losing Jrich is as big of a blow to us as some people think.
What happens in 2 or 3 years when LB isn't here any more?

Considering how long we were all screaming for an actual SG who could play the game, I think that losing Swish, a character guy, hard worker, ever improving, locker room leader type is a big blow.

[Slam]

And another thing: Next time Felts or DJ or Crash or EO50 is forcing their offensive and clanking shots or putting up bad shots, everyone better go easy on them.

[dav7z]

What happens in 2 or 3 years when LB isn't here any more?

Considering how long we were all screaming for an actual SG who could play the game, I think that losing Swish, a character guy, hard worker, ever improving, locker room leader type is a big blow.

Stephen Curry I BET money,
Not trying to go against you Slam but i have noticed Swish lose his legs in the forth all year. He played like a star in the first but clanked a lot in the forth .
I all so don't belive Swish was going to take us to the playoffs with what we had.
We all knew when Brown took the team he was going to mold it to the type players he wanted defencive,I think he did that in this trade. Only time will tell on this one. Either you love it or hate it . Im just standing on the sideline waiting to see how it works out.

[Slam]

Im just standing on the sideline waiting to see how it works out.
I totally agree dav. I need to see how it pans out too. It just pisses me off when people all of a sudden start saying Swish was a problem when we've all blown smoke up his arse from the moment we traded for him and he didn't dissapoint.

There is no doubt we got shafted with this deal. Adding Dude and a 2nd was just wrong.

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

Stephen Curry I BET money,

We all knew when Brown took the team he was going to mold it to the type players he wanted defencive,I think he did that in this trade. Only time will tell on this one. Either you love it or hate it . Im just standing on the sideline waiting to see how it works out.

agree with you 100%...on paper this looks terrible..neither Diaw or Bell have never averaged more than 15 pts pg in a season...and then you look at Jrichs' stats..and it just doesn't make sense

all that we can do is wait and see what happens and keep supporting the team..

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

Not sure if everyone remembers this...but at one point in time, there were discussions about trading our 2008 pick and "undisclosed player" to facilitate a trade that would bring Stoudamire to CLT....in retrospect, i wonder if that player was JRich and how things would have been different now

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2919016

[Mustachio]

Stephen Curry I BET money, .


CONSPIRACY THEORY #1. and its a good one.
- His dad, Dell is the Director of Player Personel for the Bobcats.
- He is local
- We now have a glaring need for scoring.
- We look like we might be a lottery team again.
- Balls
- We all know how much the organization likes getting local college talent that the current fan base can relate to and also bring in new fans.
- Dell played for the Hornets in Charlotte... only fitting for his son to take up that mantle.

2 days ago I would never have thought that Stephen Curry, would be a Bobcat... today it makes too much sense to not think thats where they are going.

[Mustachio]

I totally agree dav. I need to see how it pans out too. It just pisses me off when people all of a sudden start saying Swish was a problem when we've all blown smoke up his arse from the moment we traded for him and he didn't dissapoint.

There is no doubt we got shafted with this deal. Adding Dude and a 2nd was just wrong.


dude im not saying that at all. I am in no way, shape or form trying to convey that Jrich was "the problem"... I am just saying that he wasnt "the answer".

[Ampsportsduo]

I have nothing but love for J-Rich. I'm happy he's going to a team where he can be a piece.

As for the incoming guys not scoring prolifically, they were behind three all-star caliber offensive players. Granted Shaq is past his prime, but he still demands touches.

[amour217]

I smell a photoshop contest.


Check the epic Bobcats photoshop thread...

[Ampsportsduo]

After reading several national writers, I've come to the conclusion that most of these people don't watch Bobcats games. ESPN's John Hollinger said JRich, "[is] a high-flying finisher in transition," a part of his game that has been severely limited since he hurt his knee and just because a guy is able to elevate doesn't make him a great transition player. Everyone also seems to forget that his knee has acted up already this season (and not just when he was out seven games). Another stated, "Raymond Felton and Matt Carroll have proven that they can play big minutes at the big guard position." I don't even see where this could be derived from. My point being that people shouldn't be freaked out by some of these pundits saying that this was a bad trade.

[docend24]

:)
"Suns.com: How did you find out about the trade?
Richardson: I was taking a pre-game nap in preparation for the game against the Bobcats and the general manager called me and asked me if I was ready to go to the West coast. I was a little confused at first because I was still half-asleep. He told me to get my running shoes on because I had just been traded to Phoenix. I got a big smile on my face because I knew what Phoenix had and adding me to that team could help out a lot."

:) poor Hornets LOL I think the authenticity of this interview could be questioned:)

[docend24]

How did we get younger? Diaw and Swish are around the same age and Raja is about 8 years older than Dude?In addition Singletary have a good shot to be older than the 2010 pick :biggrin:

[docend24]

Players simply have 3 types of value (or maybe 4 if we add marketing things):

1) normal value i.e. how players are seen on their own no matter with whom they are on court; different people could value them a bit differently

2)value influenced by what their teammates are - i.e. they have different values for different teams almost certainly

3)value which is considered by Larry Brown in regard how players would fit his current team and how they would be able to improve and learn all those thing he want them to teach

These three types of value are rarely the same. That's why trades happen. And that's why happen more if Larry Brown is hired by another team.

[Ampsportsduo]

Ahh, vindication tastes sweet.

[Slam]

Ahh, vindication tastes sweet.
How is it vindication?

To this day, and forever more, nothing will change the fact that we gave up too much in that trade.

[Ampsportsduo]

Just admit you were wrong about the trade, and we can all go on being friends.

[RELAXTV]

How is it vindication?

To this day, and forever more, nothing will change the fact that we gave up too much in that trade.

I second that

1. Diaw and Bell weren't playing that much in Phoenix
2. J-Rich was a very valuable asset alone, a boarder line all-star

that alone would've been a nice trade.

But then it's like we traded Duds and a second for Singletary alone

Really, what the hell is that?

I don't care that much for a second round pick, but Duds???

Duds would've been a fine bench player for us right now

Sure as hell beats playing the inconsistant Ammo and the ever aging Nazzy.

[Dead_Real]

I second that

1. Diaw and Bell weren't playing that much in Phoenix
2. J-Rich was a very valuable asset alone, a boarder line all-star

that alone would've been a nice trade.

But then it's like we traded Duds and a second for Singletary alone

Really, what the hell is that?

I don't care that much for a second round pick, but Duds???

Duds would've been a fine bench player for us right now

Sure as hell beats playing the inconsistant Ammo and the ever aging Nazzy.
What he said...

[Slam]

I second that

1. Diaw and Bell weren't playing that much in Phoenix
2. J-Rich was a very valuable asset alone, a boarder line all-star

that alone would've been a nice trade.

But then it's like we traded Duds and a second for Singletary alone

Really, what the hell is that?

I don't care that much for a second round pick, but Duds???

Duds would've been a fine bench player for us right now

Sure as hell beats playing the inconsistant Ammo and the ever aging Nazzy.
Amen.

Two Suns players who both asked to be traded, one with what was widely considered as an untradable contract and the other in the down swing of his career for a proven 20ppg+ 5rpg+ rebounder player entering his prime, locker room leader who was happy with where he was.

I don't dispute that in the Diaw and Bell combined Vs Richardson equation it looks like we came out on top (Bell has been much better than I thought he would be but I'm still nervous about Diaw at the start of next season)

Look at how pathetic our bench is right now. Dude alone would go a long way to addressing that.

We gave up too much in the deal adding Dude and the 2nd. The only thing that will ever change that is a time machine or a do over.

[Slam]

Just admit you were wrong about the trade, and we can all go on being friends.
I have no problem admitting I'm wrong.........when I am wrong, and on this, I am far from wrong.

I guess you think that we won in the Fabio and Primoz for Nazzy trade too because Nazzy actually gets mins here, Primoz is out of the NBA and Fabio hardly gets off the pine?

[Ampsportsduo]

So now the problem isn't trading J-Rich, it's Dudley? Just give some credit to the FO and LB. It's as if you want the FO to suck.

This trade has worked out well... better than well... great. This team is going to be in competition for the playoffs and there has been a ton of improvement since the trade. EO has a good chance to be an All-Star and much of that is due to the addition of Diaw.

What flavor of Haterade are you guys drinking? Lemon-whine?

[Ampsportsduo]

Assuming I liked that trade shows the lack in logic that makes you unable to see how good this trade has been for the team.

The team gained a PF we desperately needed and you're talking about the bench? Dudley was starting some games, so you can't use the bench argument if you were for standing pat. The team got better at two starting positions, so complaining about losing a bench player is ludicrous.

By the way, the 2nd round pick is conditional, and with the way the team is playing it will probably near (or in) the second half of the second round.

[Slam]

You are a freaking buzz kill.

I'm enjoying the win far too much to get into with someone like you tonight.

[Ampsportsduo]

You are a freaking buzz kill.

I'm enjoying the win far too much to get into with someone like you tonight.


You think you're enjoying the win? Just imagine if you could bask in the glory of being right about the trade too!

I kid, I kid. Agreed, we need a truce to enjoy this win.

[Alex]

How is it vindication?

To this day, and forever more, nothing will change the fact that we gave up too much in that trade.

lol, you're a joker.

[davcbow]

The trade is what it is, we kicked their ass tonight because of the trade and no other reason except the new coach.... weather you guys liked or disliked the trade its over and done with so quit bitching to each other about it.....:cool:

[kickazzz2000]

I can't believe people are still hung up over losing Dudley.

Seriously?

Look at how we are playing now. Hell, look at what happened tonight.


If Dudley is what it took, then Dudley is what it took to get the trade done.

End of Story.

I'd do it again.

ILBIT

[BIGCatBobcat]

I can't believe people are still hung up over losing Dudley.

Seriously?

Look at how we are playing now. Hell, look at what happened tonight.


If Dudley is what it took, then Dudley is what it took to get the trade done.

End of Story.

I'd do it again.

ILBIT

I agree. I did a paragraph on the blog about dudley, poor kid is only getting garbage minutes but hey, he goes to work everyday with Shaq, Nash, Amare, Grant Hill, J-Rich and he lives in Phoenix now. You can't feel that bad for him. If we had it to do over i'd try to talk them out of it but like you said, we're better and that's what it took.

[teej]

I agree. I did a paragraph on the blog about dudley, poor kid is only getting garbage minutes but hey, he goes to work everyday with Shaq, Nash, Amare, Grant Hill, J-Rich and he lives in Phoenix now. You can't feel that bad for him. If we had it to do over i'd try to talk them out of it but like you said, we're better and that's what it took.

Think about it though. had we kept Dude, we couldnt have signed Juwan, and he has been great for the team

[WarioVsMooChicken]

Good Trade and Good Win

[WAM9]

I have to first state the obvious that hindsight is 20/20...

I am almost embarrassed that I too thought we gave up too much in this trade. I really liked Diaw and Bell but I thought we gave up way too much in the deal. With the wisdom that hindsight brings, I think we absolutlely stole Diaw and Bell. Singletary may end up being ok too, who knows, but Bell and Diaw have been ridiculous improvements for this team. Don't get me wrong, I loved Dudley as much as the next guy but for what we got in return, come on...

The proof is clearly in the pudding on this trade and the Suns have lost 3 straight and have not improved since the trade. We have won 5 of 6 and are an infinitely better team.

Big Slam, I respect your opinion greatly but...do you really think we gave up too much based on the results???

[Mustachio]

i would do it again in a heart beat and i might even give up next years 2nd round pick too.

[TheBeagle]

Way too much respect for Big Slam to get into an open argument with him. I'll just state my opinion for what it's worth here....

Raja by himself is better than JRich ever was, most especiallly in intangibles, but even in the tangible realm. So I look at that aspect of the trade as being Raja> JRich.

The next tier is Boris and Sean for JD and 2nd rounder. Boris, by himself, is better than JD and the 2nd rounder. So it goes Boris> JD + 2nd rounder.

That leaves Sean as a throw in for us.

Yes, it would've been better to keep JD and let them have Ammo instead (sorry, Ammofan), but I just can't see how the Cats gave up too much in what is clearly a one-sided trade in our favor.

[spectre]

Because Raja & Boris' value at the time was not how well they'd be playing with us, but how well they were doing right before and during the trade.

You trade based on potential for a 20 year old that can't get off the bench...not for disgruntled vets where one has what is considered one of the worse contracts in the league.

We did give up too much. It worked out and has worked out damn well...but that doesn't change the facts.

[Slam]

Big Slam, I respect your opinion greatly but...do you really think we gave up too much based on the results???
See, but you can't do that WAM. Regardless of how it worked out (and at this stage it does seem like it has heavily worked out to our advantage), you can only base it on what you know at the time.

Like I said last night:



Two Suns players who both asked to be traded, one with what was widely considered as an untradable contract and the other in the down swing of his career for a proven 20ppg+ 5rpg+ rebounder player entering his prime, locker room leader who was happy with where he was.


If you thought we gave up too much at the time, you should feel the same way today, regardless of what is happening today.

[Slam]

Way too much respect for Big Slam to get into an open argument with him. I'll just state my opinion for what it's worth here....

Raja by himself is better than JRich ever was, most especiallly in intangibles, but even in the tangible realm. So I look at that aspect of the trade as being Raja> JRich.

The next tier is Boris and Sean for JD and 2nd rounder. Boris, by himself, is better than JD and the 2nd rounder. So it goes Boris> JD + 2nd rounder.

That leaves Sean as a throw in for us.

Yes, it would've been better to keep JD and let them have Ammo instead (sorry, Ammofan), but I just can't see how the Cats gave up too much in what is clearly a one-sided trade in our favor.
Like I said to WAM Beagle, was Raja by himself is better than JRich ever was when we the trade went down?

Not even close.

Was Boris> JD + 2nd rounder? No way. He was considered lazy, over paid and a role player.

Sure, it's easy to say that now because Bell and Diaw are dominating over this past week or two, but at the time of the trade, Bell and Diaw had next to no value at all.

To put it into context, if today we traded Crash and two future 1st round picks for Eddy Curry people would freak out.

But then if in a couple of months time Curry started putting up 30ppg, 20rpg and 3bpg on 55%/80% people would say the trade had fair value.

That's not the way it works - like I said, unless you have a time machine.

[Slam]

Because Raja & Boris' value at the time was not how well they'd be playing with us, but how well they were doing right before and during the trade.

You trade based on potential for a 20 year old that can't get off the bench...not for disgruntled vets where one has what is considered one of the worse contracts in the league.

We did give up too much. It worked out and has worked out damn well...but that doesn't change the facts.
Thank you for looking it this with an open and unbiased mind.

[bing!]

If you thought we gave up too much at the time, you should feel the same way today, regardless of what is happening today.

So, following your logic, the Lakers gave up too much in Divac for a straight-from-high-school kid who had yet to prove his worth in a big time league (I reckon more than a few fans were disgruntled with sending away their starting C away)... I don't buy your logic, 'tis faulty.

[spectre]

Well sure (was that sarcasm?)...but that's the stance I have had from the start. When the trade went down I was upset, but that's becauase Richardson had become my favoite player...I bought a damn statue of the guy on EBay for Chrissakes. I think I went off on one little rant, but even then I reiterated what I'd said before: In Larry Brown I Trust. If he wanted those players then I'd back the move.

HOWEVER...I ripped the Lolipop (that's when I changed my avatar) for giving up too much in the trade. My reasons were what both you and I are giving now, and (like you just said) regardless of the outcome that won't change.

On another note, I just went thru that thread on a Suns' board that Zig linked to; they actually thought the trade would make them better DEFENSIVELY at the SG spot? WTF were they smoking? I know Raja wasn't playing as well (disgruntled) but damn...Richardson is just an average defender on a good day.

[Slam]

Well sure (was that sarcasm?)....
It was, but not at all directed at you.



On another note, I just went thru that thread on a Suns' board that Zig linked to; they actually thought the trade would make them better DEFENSIVELY at the SG spot? WTF were they smoking? I know Raja wasn't playing as well (disgruntled) but damn...Richardson is just an average defender on a good day.
Really? Do they still think that today?

[Slam]

So, following your logic, the Lakers gave up too much in Divac for a straight-from-high-school kid who had yet to prove his worth in a big time league (I reckon more than a few fans were disgruntled with sending away their starting C away)... I don't buy your logic, 'tis faulty.
Correct.

Lets look at our most recent trade. The day it happened it was pretty fair value wise - and that will never change.

If all of a sudden Diop gets DNP-CD for the rest of his 3 years her and doesn't see the court one time and at the same time Hammer starts putting up 20ppg, 4rpg, 4apg you can't say we got fleeced because at the time the value was fair.

Same as if Diop all of a sudden Diop starts putting up 18ppg, 15rpg, 4bpg and Hammer is playing in Europe and Twiggy flipping burgers because they can't cut it in the NBA. You can't say that got the much better value because at the time, the value was the same.

Don't confuse two very different things: trade value Vs trade outcome.

[Mustachio]

So, following your logic, the Lakers gave up too much in Divac for a straight-from-high-school kid who had yet to prove his worth in a big time league (I reckon more than a few fans were disgruntled with sending away their starting C away)... I don't buy your logic, 'tis faulty.


this is exactly right. just because you couldn't see potential and overall ability better than Larry Brown doesn't mean its a bad trade or we gave up too much. All it really means is that we were wrong about the value of Jrich, Dude and a 2nd. It's ok to say your wrong every once in a while.


what you guys are essentially saying is that because you didn't see that Diaw and Bell would make this team better overall, (than anything Jrich, Dude or a soon to be cut 2nd rounder could add to this team) that we gave up too much. We overvalued J-rich because of his personality and "semi-star" status. People who thought we gave up too much in this trade were as wrong on day 1 as they are after dismantling the Suns. We got better. They didn't.

no need for a time machine. this has been a GOOD TRADE since day 1.

[Mustachio]

Correct.

Lets look at our most recent trade. The day it happened it was pretty fair value wise - and that will never change.

If all of a sudden Diop gets DNP-CD for the rest of his 3 years her and doesn't see the court one time and at the same time Hammer starts putting up 20ppg, 4rpg, 4apg you can't say we got fleeced because at the time the value was fair.

Same as if Diop all of a sudden Diop starts putting up 18ppg, 15rpg, 4bpg and Hammer is playing in Europe and Twiggy flipping burgers because they can't cut it in the NBA. You can't say that got the much better value because at the time, the value was the same.

Don't confuse two very different things: trade value Vs trade outcome.


that makes better sense actually.

but i still think your discrediting, what one player can do in a system that another cannot. see what i mean? putting too much power in stats.

So even if Hammer does average 20,4 and 4 (never ever ever happen), If Diop make us a better deeper team, than its still a good trade regardless of stats.

[spectre]

Say you're shopping for a used car and see this rusted up muscle car. It has a lot of body damage but the engine appears sound...even has low mileage. The guy is asking 5000 bucks and his whole spiel is "this car would be worth a lot of money if someone will invest the time in it". Thing is, a good body man would charge 10 grand...so in the end you're looking at 15k for a car worth 10k tops.

What the seller doesn't know is your uncle is the best damn body man in the state and you're his favorite nephew.

Do you tell the guy about your uncle and pay the 5k happily, or do you try and get him down because of the 15k argument?

LB's ability to make these players better than they were currently doing = your uncle.

LOL...does that make sense or do I need to go back to bed?

[spectre]

So, following your logic, the Lakers gave up too much in Divac for a straight-from-high-school kid who had yet to prove his worth in a big time league (I reckon more than a few fans were disgruntled with sending away their starting C away)... I don't buy your logic, 'tis faulty.

This is where I do think "potential" comes into play. That's different then trading for guys who have been in the league for a few seasons.

Still a gamble, and of course a lot of fans would grumble initially.

GSW probably didn't like their trade (Richardson for BWright). They've rationalized it to pieces, but it certainly didn't make them better.

[Slam]

Say you're shopping for a used car and see this rusted up muscle car. It has a lot of body damage but the engine appears sound...even has low mileage. The guy is asking 5000 bucks and his whole spiel is "this car would be worth a lot of money if someone will invest the time in it". Thing is, a good body man would charge 10 grand...so in the end you're looking at 15k for a car worth 10k tops.

What the seller doesn't know is your uncle is the best damn body man in the state and you're his favorite nephew.

Do you tell the guy about your uncle and pay the 5k happily, or do you try and get him down because of the 15k argument?

LB's ability to make these players better than they were currently doing = your uncle.

LOL...does that make sense or do I need to go back to bed?
I think this is a great analogy and makes perfect sense.

[Slam]

I'll add this too - I think we gave up too much when we traded for JRich in the 1st place when we gave up the 8th pick for him.

[TattoodCats4life]

I'll add this too - I think we gave up too much when we traded for JRich in the 1st place when we gave up the 8th pick for him.

Agreed, but luckily we rectified that situation ;)

[spectre]

Heh, thanks Slam...tho I did forget to mention that the seller is having to pay 200$ a month to store the piece of junk and needs to move it (because the Suns were damn sure not liking all that salary they were putting out for a seldom used bench player).

[Ampsportsduo]

Like I said to WAM Beagle, was Raja by himself is better than JRich ever was when we the trade went down?

Not even close.

Was Boris> JD + 2nd rounder? No way. He was considered lazy, over paid and a role player.

Sure, it's easy to say that now because Bell and Diaw are dominating over this past week or two, but at the time of the trade, Bell and Diaw had next to no value at all.

To put it into context, if today we traded Crash and two future 1st round picks for Eddy Curry people would freak out.

But then if in a couple of months time Curry started putting up 30ppg, 20rpg and 3bpg on 55%/80% people would say the trade had fair value.

That's not the way it works - like I said, unless you have a time machine.

I was just going to let this thread go, after you asked for a truce, but no...


at the time of the trade, Bell and Diaw had next to no value at all. So a starter on a team that until the trade was in the playoff picture has no value? You're attempts at hyperbole to strengthen your case are ridiculous.

Raja was a starter on the Suns. Are there any starters in the league that have zero trade value? No.

Diaw was the first big man off the bench, are there any sixth men who have zero trade value? No.


Was Boris> JD + 2nd rounder? No way.

You wouldn't trade for a 26-year old that had started in the Western Conference Finals for a career bench player and a second round draft pick? That's indefensible.


To put it into context, if today we traded Crash and two future 1st round picks for Eddy Curry people would freak out.

But then if in a couple of months time Curry started putting up 30ppg, 20rpg and 3bpg on 55%/80% people would say the trade had fair value.

This doesn't put anything into context. It's more hyperbole to attempt to support a theory that has no factual backing. Your numbers for Curry are absurd. If we traded Gerald Wallace and two first rounders for Lebron would people be up in arms? I'd miss Crash, but Lebron's a once in a lifetime talent and that's the numbers you're attempting to attribute to Curry. I understand what you're trying to say, but the assertion that Diaw and Bell have dramatically over-achieved here is without basis. Let's take a look at Diaw's numbers from the season he started (you may have noticed that's his role here in Charlotte):

05-06: 35.5 mpg, 13.3 ppg, 7 rpg, 6.2 ast, 1 bpg
08-09: 37.7 mpg, 14.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 5.2 ast, .5 bpg

These do not represent a dramatic leap as was offered in the "contextual" example of Curry. Diaw's inability to crack the starting lineup has far more to do with the fact that he was behind Amare than his own play. Those 'lazy, fat' "assessments" were from the same Suns fans that are now asking if they should trade Amare. Maybe they're just not great talent evaluators.

Now, let's take a look at Raja:

07-08: 35.3 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.2 apg, 0.7 spg
08-09: 32.7 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 0.3 spg

So, please tell me where the ridiculous outburst has been since they joined? The trade is in no way similar to your Curry trade. All of that information about previous seasons was available before the trade, so this isn't hindsight. Recognizing that a team is failing to get the most out of a particular player is the job of a NBA front office, and in this case, the Bobcats did their job.

The addition of Sean Singletary has even proven beneficial. LB had been asking for a third PG since arriving in Charlotte, and this enabled them to pick one up.


unless you have a time machine. Or foresight works too.

Anyone got some SPF 30? The glow from basking is starting to take it's toll on my fair skin.

[kickazzz2000]

Again, I can't believe this is even a debate.

[SWedd523]

I'm usually on the same page as Slam, but I have to say I disagree on this trade. I was one of the very few that was for the trade from the get-go. I'm still all for this trade.

Sure Swish was good, but his play clashed with Wallace and a trade was needed. We got rid of the creaky-knee'd guy in favor of our do-it-all guy. Can't really complain there.

We traded 3 pieces and got 3 pieces in return. I really don't care much about 2nd round picks as they hardly turn out to be good players and we have 2nd rounders from other teams in the draft anyway. So we won that part of the trade.

Boris and Raja have performed better than Richardson and Dude did, and there's no contesting that. I'll trade a starter and a bench player for 2 starters any day of the week. That part of the trade filled our weakest spot (PF) and brought in a serviceable replacement at SG. (Can we not all agree that a good SG is much easier to find than a good PF?)

Boris has freed Mek up and given him a motivation that I haven't seen in awhile. He's performing much better now than he was with Swish. A skilled passer at the PF spot will almost assuredly make a C happy and better any day of the week.

We also brought in a tough defender and good outside shooter in Raja. Before, we never really had someone we could walk out on the floor and have them play one-on-one and have the advantage on the defensive end. Raja is obviously one of the best perimeter defenders in the league even with his loss of speed.

There was no doubt in my mind that bringing the two of them in would make us a more complete team. Yes, I hate losing the PLAYERS Richardson and Dudley, but there's no denying that our TEAM is better with Raja, Boris, and Singletary than it was with Richardson and Dudley

[TattoodCatswife]

And I'll say it again, this trade made us even better than we were with J-Rich..

[teej]

Anyone who can debate what we gave up is better than what we got needs either to get glasses or get on the short bus

no offense, but there is NO DEBATE

[spectre]

Because it's not about NOW, it's about THEN!

Amp, you pulled up Diaw's 05'/06' stats...why would that dictate his trade value in 2008? Does Ammo still have value because he was a great college player 3 years ago? Diaw was averaging 24.5 minutes, 8.3 ppg and getting paid 9 million this year.

Do you guys realize that most of the league thinks Crash is on a bad deal? Compare his stats to Diaws pre trade. If Crash's deal sucks...then Boris' at that time was BAD.

Raja was disgruntled and wanted out. According to their fans he looked like he'd lost a step this year with them.

All that combined does NOT make for a good trade package.

We absolutely won this trade, but you guys are confusing fair value being paid for what something was worth at the time vs. what it has blossomed into.

Two totally separate things.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

See, but you can't do that WAM. Regardless of how it worked out (and at this stage it does seem like it has heavily worked out to our advantage), you can only base it on what you know at the time.

Like I said last night:



If you thought we gave up too much at the time, you should feel the same way today, regardless of what is happening today.I remember when Diaw and Bell were properly coached and how important they were to the Suns and their successes. Since I could remember that it wasn't that long ago, I took into account that Larry Brown would be a good fit for both players. As far as Singletary goes I really did not know much about him.

Now as for the trade, it is not like Diaw and Bell had been scrubs on a lousy team or even scrubs at all for that matter. They got bogged down in a system under a new coach that was not the right fit for either. As it stands I think JRich is a pretty good player who has to take the back of the Bus in Phoenix. That is one of the reasons he played so poorly against us last night. When his teammates are struggling JRich can't get on track.

Diaw and Bell however have fit quite nicely into Larry Browns plans. Larry was very aware of what Raja brings to the team but he also had watched Boris play with Phoenix as a coach of other teams. Larry has always had a habit of leaving teams better off than when he first came on board. He is shrewd and he knows what players will fit and what ones won't.

If Larry could have dumped Nazr and AmMo I am sure he would have. Larry has pretty much done all he can do this season barring a deal to good to be true arises and he trades a core member of the team. Most of our poor bench will hurt us THIS season and nothing is going to change that. If our starters and maybe one or two bench players can continue this push I see no reason Bobcats fans can't be happy with Playoffs this season.

I am perfectly happy with the giant step we seem to have taken. If this continues the only thing needed is a small step next season. On the surface many thought this a bad trade but the fact that it has been an improvement should mean it was and is a success. Phoenix is the one looking for answers. They thought JRich was going to be that missing piece they needed and Dudley would help off the bench. From watching that game last night the troubles with Phoenix starts with their coach. We all know how poor coaching can deflate a team.

Anyway, as long as the Bobcats keep this winning pace this really does not seem like an argument that needs to be had.

Peace, Garrett ;)

[MilZo]

Big Slam, nigga plz, you're waaaay off, you're just using your knowledge of the players in the trade at the time, not the knowledge of the people that actually signed off on the trade. You should be happy that you were wrong, not argue on how much you were wrong.
Peace out, enjoy the Ws.

[TheBeagle]

Like I said to WAM Beagle, was Raja by himself is better than JRich ever was when we the trade went down?

Not even close.

Was Boris> JD + 2nd rounder? No way. He was considered lazy, over paid and a role player.

Sure, it's easy to say that now because Bell and Diaw are dominating over this past week or two, but at the time of the trade, Bell and Diaw had next to no value at all.

To put it into context, if today we traded Crash and two future 1st round picks for Eddy Curry people would freak out.

But then if in a couple of months time Curry started putting up 30ppg, 20rpg and 3bpg on 55%/80% people would say the trade had fair value.

That's not the way it works - like I said, unless you have a time machine. Thanks for clearing it up, Slam. Your point is sound and your argument makes sense. That's why I'm glad you and spectre (and maybe others I'm forgetting) have that executive/FO savvy in terms of contract legalese, rules, etc. because I have no clue; I come at this only as a fan who, while tries to be unbiased, usually goes over the deep end in supporting the Cats (how else can you explain someone like me being such a big fan of Lexy?).

When you define "value" in the terms you set forth, I agree that we did give up too much...but thank god fortune was in our favor and the trade was a homerun for us.

Once again, good explanation of your argument, Slam. +1

[TheBeagle]

Because it's not about NOW, it's about THEN!

Amp, you pulled up Diaw's 05'/06' stats...why would that dictate his trade value in 2008? Does Ammo still have value because he was a great college player 3 years ago? Diaw was averaging 24.5 minutes, 8.3 ppg and getting paid 9 million this year.

Do you guys realize that most of the league thinks Crash is on a bad deal? Compare his stats to Diaws pre trade. If Crash's deal sucks...then Boris' at that time was BAD.

Raja was disgruntled and wanted out. According to their fans he looked like he'd lost a step this year with them.

All that combined does NOT make for a good trade package.

We absolutely won this trade, but you guys are confusing fair value being paid for what something was worth at the time vs. what it has blossomed into.

Two totally separate things. I know I just posted a reply to Slam, but I thought I'd highlight spectre's also because they both work together well to prove their valid point.

Like Swedd523 and WAM9 (and others probably...these are the two that come to mind) after getting over the shock, I really was feeling the love for this trade; I was stoked to see the guys play for the first time that Saturday night vs. Detroit. But all this was coming from the pure fanboy in me and the ILBIT mantra. Looking at it through the unbiased eyes of an executive, which spectre and Slam do near impeccably as I've seen through the years (and am thankful for their insight since I have no clue about that side of the business), they are logically correct that we gave up too much in the trade. Two disgruntled players and a second round PG for the leading scorer coming off a career year and a solid bench/energy guy AND a future second round pick?

Like Slam and spectre have said, it's not an argument about who won the trade (an argument determined by the future)....we did; it's about maximizing value of goods brought in for those shipped out at THE TIME of the transaction (determined by the then present), and we did give up too much, or, not get enough in return.

Seriously, an incredibly logically sound argument that even my old logic prof., Dr. Leplin, would be proud of.....the old bastard ;)

[SWedd523]

I know I just posted a reply to Slam, but I thought I'd highlight spectre's also because they both work together well to prove their valid point.

Like Swedd523 and WAM9 (and others probably...these are the two that come to mind) after getting over the shock, I really was feeling the love for this trade; I was stoked to see the guys play for the first time that Saturday night vs. Detroit. But all this was coming from the pure fanboy in me and the ILBIT mantra. Looking at it through the unbiased eyes of an executive, which spectre and Slam do near impeccably as I've seen through the years (and am thankful for their insight since I have no clue about that side of the business), they are logically correct that we gave up too much in the trade. Two disgruntled players and a second round PG for the leading scorer coming off a career year and a solid bench/energy guy AND a future second round pick?

Like Slam and spectre have said, it's not an argument about who won the trade (an argument determined by the future)....we did; it's about maximizing value of goods brought in for those shipped out at THE TIME of the transaction (determined by the then present), and we did give up too much, or, not get enough in return.

Seriously, an incredibly logically sound argument that even my old logic prof., Dr. Leplin, would be proud of.....the old bastard ;)
You also have to look at it from the sense that we seriously overvalue some of our players, and Swish was a guy a lot of us majorly nut hugged. There's no problem with that whatsoever but to look at it from the situation that we were in before the trade, getting back two players that are veterans and start on (what used to be) a high caliber team in return for a guy that puts up good numbers, yeah, but doesn't exactly come through when we need him most.

Don't take the disgruntled part too seriously, I saw comments from Raja and Nash that said they were shocked to see him leave.. He definitely wasn't expecting the move. Diaw, on the other hand, was the odd man out in Phoenix so we probably could've gotten more in return.

We weren't exactly in the power position. We were a sub .500 team with really only a couple of guys that we could deal for any value. We got 2 starters and a solid backup out of the deal. I'd (in my unbiased opinion) take two veteran, proven starters over a guy that failed to come though in the crunch time for us.

[spectre]

it's not an argument about who won the trade (an argument determined by the future)....we did; it's about maximizing value of goods brought in for those shipped out at THE TIME of the transaction (determined by the then present), and we did give up too much, or, not get enough in return.

EXACTLY!!!!!!

BTW, Raja did ask for a trade; in this article 2nd hand by his agent and also by the owner's comments that "he didn't want to be here":

http://www.azfans.com/gambo-raja-bell-asked-to-be-traded.htm



“The team was underachieving… They needed to make some changes. I guess they think it’s their best chance to win and I’ve got to respect that.” Those were the words of Raja Bell immediately following the announcement of the 5-player trade that sent him, Boris Diaw, and Sean Singletary to Charlotte in exchange for Jason Richardson, Jared Dudley, and a second round draft pick.
If Bell doesn’t sound too upset about the deal to you, then maybe you’re right! According to 620 KTAR Sports’ John Gambadoro, Raja Bell’s agent requested that the Phoenix Suns trade him last week.
On Friday afternoon’s program, Gambo and Ash interviewed Suns owner Robert Sarver, who did not confirm, nor deny that Raja Bell asked to be traded. Simply saying that he “didn’t want to be here.” Sarver went on to say that the decision was purely a basketball one designed to put Suns ahead of the “other eight teams” behind the Lakers in the West.


The Suns are over the luxury tax limit, and this moved saved them a million bucks this year (plus the penalty million if they stay over)...so that was even more incentive for them.

Sarver, Kerr, the Suns' fans AND pretty much all the other teams' fans thought we got rooked in this deal...mainly because of Diaw's contract.

[Keetch]

I think if someone had posted this trade as a fictitious proposal using ESPN's trade machine; most of us on this board would have flamed it as trading an elite player and 2 fan favorites for two role players/backups that we hardly even recognized. As you guys have said, Boris was viewed as inconsistant and out-of-shape. Raja was a step slow. The sports media looked at us as clowns.

I still wish we could have swapped them Ammo instead of Dudley. Dudley would make a nicer backup to Wallace at SF. I doubt the Suns wanted Ammo though.

I was very surprised at first by the trade; first reaction not good; but then figured that LB likely knew what he was doing, and ILBIT.

[dnbman]

I don't really care either way, as you can read the trade in two ways:

1. Our management is not good at getting good value in trades, possibly hurting us (now or in the future.)
2. Our management is good at getting underachieving players and making them better.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned in the last two pages is that we were widely criticized for acquiring J-Rich, who was seen as on the decline and a massive contract. J-Rich went out and broke the NBA record for 3s, playing a pretty good overall game in the process.

As much as I loved J-Rich, he had his limitations. As much as I wanted him to be, he wasn't a player that you could count on to dominate the end and score. Meanwhile, he was a mediocre defender with a huge contract, making him almost as much of a trade albatross as the players we got.

Even if Diaw and Bell didn't excel like they have, they became two smaller pieces to trade, with Boris possibly a Knicks target. While the Knicks rumors are just that, I don't think it's coincidence that we made the trade when we did, giving us enough time to redirect those players before the trade deadline.

So, while I get the point that trade value and trade outcome are two different things, I also see that we overvalued J-Rich and Dudley a lot more than other teams in the NBA. Dudley will never be more than a mediocre role player for a successful team. J-Rich is amazing, but, again, overvalued by us as fans hungry for real talent.

We trade two players that we love for two players that the other team's fans didn't love. However, from a contract and skill standpoint, I don't think it was that far off of a trade, especially since they brought us exactly what LB wanted.

[davcbow]

Although everyone has valid points in all the different arguments there is no use crying over spilt milk... The trade is over and a done deal.. I think that LB got what he needed to make his plan work and we are winning... Ive seen Raja have good nights, Ive seen Diaw have good nights and even Singletary whom I havent seen mentioned hardly at all in this thread is going to be a desent backup PG. Sure I wish we could have kept Dudley and although not much on defense J-Rich could score the 3 when he was hot, but sometimes you just have to take a chance and its time to move on and enjoy the winning thats going on now and playing defense like no other time in our history. After all whats all the scoring in the world matter if you cant stop the other team from scoring?... We now have a chance at the playoffs thanks to this trade.... :cool:

[docend24]

I respect SLAM's opinion and kineda agree. Sure it was a win traqde for us but maybe just maybe we could negotiate a bit more to make that trade a complete robbery. I know they wanted Dudley (not sure why assuming how much he plays there), maybe just becuase we need Singletary as a what-looked-like-a-throw-in. i think all of us would be happier if there were a second round pick or two instead of Jared Dudley. Or any pick coming our way. But after all I think we got nearly all we could get I guess.

But again cosnider Diaw as hardly tradeable big bad contract, Bell as aging player and Singletary as eternal journeyman - because they were that in league view at that time. The thing their value or better- their value in Larry's system is much bigger doesn't matter, we shold make us better and not making other teams better more than necessarily in the process. That's how it is. (not that it ended well for Phoenix, but with that turmoil they are experiencing there it is not completely aboutvalue of players - Jared still showed he can play, against us in garbage time).

EDIT: I just want to add that only few hours after the trade I liked it (after some needed research).