How I will evaluate the trade!

[BRNC]

First of all I 'd like to clarify my disappointment last night after we all got this news. I'm not opposed to trading anyone...anyone on the team to make it better. JRich was my favorite player on our team..he is no longer on our team but I only wish him the best and pull for him to get a ring with the Suns (although I hope we beat the crap out of them when we play them).

I have questioned (and in post at various times) why Hollins and AA have not played more minutes in light of McMay coming to camp in no condition to play BB. Last night when we played NO Hollins and AA played a combined 34 minutes for 20/7 night...why has this not happend until now...simple...coaches decision...

We started the season (and I know this is my opinion) with better talent than the Knicks...yet D'Antoni went to NY and they have a much better record than we have...it is not because they have better players...in my opinion it is because he wants to win...

Now the trade...I laughed at Memphis when they traded the number one asset they have for little of nothing...why...because it was not our team...
We traded our number one asset along with a guy (even I would argue) is at best a 7-9 player in the league but plays solid minutes and gives great effort every time he is on the floor...and to add insult to injury we also send a second round pick...well OK...and what do we get back...

R. Bell (who I said last night I like) who is a half-step to a step slower...B. Diaw who has been fighting conditioning (that word again) problems all year (which I've known about but is restated in the article ohara posted in another thread that deals with us probably trading Gerald for a center)...a player (Diaw) with a contract no one in the league has been willing to touch...a guy who in his best year (05-06) averaged 2 whole rebounds more than the guard (JRich) we traded...

So how will I evaluate the trade...like this...if a team with (again in my opinion) less talent (Knicks) going through as much change of players personel finishes the season with a better record then we have screwed ourselves as a franchise...and I will blame one person and one person only (along with his ego) Larry Brown...

If Larry Brown is a hall of fame coach why can't he (or why is he unwilling) to develop a game plan around the available talent (or is D'Antoni that much of a better coach)...why has Larry Brown allowed his ego to sabotage a team (that I would argue this year at best would have been .500) just to get his way...again to my friends here after this post I really need some time off...and I respect you all and your opinions...but...if the Knicks finish the season with a better record I would hope you revisit this post and actually think about how this team was run (and to what end) just to make a trade...and what we ended up with from that trade!

Sorry for the length...be back soon...

[Chef]

very well said!

[Ampsportsduo]

One thing about AA, just because he's lean doesn't mean he's in tremendous shape. He seems to come in and make a play (or try to make a play), but becomes invisible the longer he stays out there. He also thinks that an open shot is a good shot no matter the shot clock or situation. That's counter to what LB would like.

It also may have something to do with being able to effectively execute the offense. We've discussed how complex his offense is, and AA and Hollins may be struggling with it. That also leads into the difference between Brown and D'Antoni. D'Antoni's system is more likely to get players to buy in, because it's seemingly fun and free-wheeling basketball. LB on the other end is complex and more controlled (aka less fun). D'Antoni is one of the best coaches in the league, specifically on the offensive end, but the same can be said about LB and the defensive end. Both styles can win a championship, but to date only Brown's has (I think D'Antoni will get at least one championship before he retires).

[Mustachio]

D'Antoni is built for the regular season.

Brown is built for the playoffs.


run and shoot doesn't work as well when the other team is locking you down on defense and refusing to run.

[bobcats_express]

ok, the trade depleted us of our best scorer- who are we left with? wallace is going to have to step up now and start scoring like he should. all the other guys we have arent good scorers and the players we traded for i wouldnt expect that much either. maybe if may and morrison were where they were a couple of seasons ago i would be satisfied, but im not

[BRNC]

D'Antoni is built for the regular season.

Brown is built for the playoffs.


run and shoot doesn't work as well when the other team is locking you down on defense and refusing to run.

My point about using D'Antoni in this comparison is this....and to speak to "the ring" LB won at Detroit...

D'Antoni put himself (by taking the job in NY) in a position of having to perform with what ever crap players came up with and those he started with...he has no choice but he still "has to perform"...and I've watched them this year and he at least has that team performing and they have to play some defensive because they do not have the weapons he had with the Suns...no where close...

PS: I'll still evaluate these trades/our team on where we finish relative to the Knicks....

Most good NBA coaches are hired and told "they have to perform" our their ass is out the door...

Joe Dumars (contrary to popular belief) build the Pistons team that LB won a ring with...not LB...but J. Dumars had the balls to tell LB when he was hired we have the talent, I know we need a few pieces, but win or your ass is out the door...did they have to blow up that team...NO...

Many people here constantly want to devalue our players...constantly...do we have the best...no...do we have the worst...far from it...

We started this season with four positions (PG, SG, SF, and pick where EO50 plays) covered with NBA starters contrary to anyones belief...four very coachable players, hard working, talented players...not to unlike a Pistons team that LB went to and Joe Dumars made clear was not going to blown up...differance...NY

LB goes with a players out players in check and so it started...and the rest is history...

This team needed a coach...and getting a HOF coach (even I loved it) is great...but even I thought our FO (mainly MJ) had the balls to tell LB that he was hired to coach (he is not and has proven himself not a HOF GM)...

Our much maligned bench (I noticed how badly they played against Dallas last night) is as good as the bench the Pistons had when LB was hired by Detroit...did we need a 4 or 5 (depending on where you want EO50) when LB came...yes...did we need a few pieces changed around on the bench...yes...did we need a talented team blown up...only if your a coach with an ego larger than any franchise and you have the ability (but not if your a coach that is hired like most NBA head coaches...win our your ass is out the door).

So for everyone on the board that wishes to make an excuse for LB doing this...fine..make it...for everyone on the board that insist that this was the only way I say..you're getting your wish I just hope you're happy with what you get back...for anyone who wants to devalue, demean, knock, gripe, call the guys we have on this team whatever...I point to the game last Night (Dallas) and many other games since this team has been here about the character, quality, and hard work of these players...and that game was lost because the wrong player (S. Brown) was in the game and had two TOs in crunch time...coaches error in my opinion...

The players that we have (IMO) have not been used effectively at any time this year before last nights Dallsa game and when it came to crunch time a wrong player for the situation was in the game (IMO)...

We needed a HOF coach (the one from Detroit) not the "mad genius" from the Knicks...I'm affraid we got the later...and I hope I'm wrong...but since I've just finished reading another articl about "the trade" and the fact LB feels we really did not address our need (no kidding) more trades to come...so for those that wanted the team blown up I say...hope you're happy 'cause you got your wish!!!

[Proudiddy]

Great points BRNC... This is the problem. I was talking with my best friend about this, who played professionally, so I trust his basketball knowledge. He said from day one that he thought the Larry Brown hiring was a mistake. Sure, it's obvious Larry Brown knows the game and is a great X's and O's guy. He's smart. But he may be too old school. For example, remember during training camp how the Observer had the article with Nazr talking about how LB stops practice every 5 minutes just to "teach" the game.

I took it as Nazr saying, "that's coach, he knows me, I know him, I've got my spot on this roster..." And look, Nazr racking up DNPs. Why? Probably LB's ego as you mentioned. Now, I won't go as far as saying that hiring him was a mistake, as my friend did. But, he better start proving the hire was the right move. My biggest problem with the trade happening was that I felt it was driven more by his ego than actual basketball needs/strategies.

And to add to this... I watched some of the game last night in which a shorthanded Bobcats team almost beat the Mavs. I tuned in just in time to see one of our guys knock down two clutch free throws and shortly thereafter throw down a huge dunk. Guess who it was? Hollins. I think he was taken out shortly after that as well, and he did all that in only a span of like 2 minutes. Even their announcers were saying, "That was... Ryan Hollins," as if to say, why hasn't this guy been playing? My question exactly. The other thing that bothered me about this recent trade is that it doesn't suggest any clear direction in which the franchise is headed. Many have said, if there is another move following this one, then it may have been good for us. If this was the only move on the horizon, it was horrible.

We acquired two guys because supposedly they play defense. Well, to keep it simple, the guys weren't playing in PHX b/c why??? THEY DIDN'T PLAY DEFENSE.

The turnover at the bottom of the roster suggests no direction as well... Sign a guy b/c Larry says he's a defender and we need him, CUT HIM. Sign another one, cut him. I'd like to think there is a master plan behind it, but I'm starting to think LB has just lost it. He wanted to do this other places too but mngmt wouldn't give in. Our mngmt. is giving in and we're looking like idiots for doing so. Andre Brown, Linton Johnson, Dewayne Jones, Juwan Howard... And what's laughable about most of these signings were that the subsequent guy signed was available when the guy before him was signed. It makes no sense... LB better know what he's doing.

[BRNC]

I know that LB has more BB knowledge in a nail clipping than I will ever have...I admire the guy for that knowledge and was not opposed to him coming in at all...that said..

After the NY fiasco I could not imagine MJ not taking a Joe Dumars approach to LB...the guy is a great coach...but frankly I've never seen anyone with his knowledge that has the ability to self implode and take a franchise with him...and my fear is that's what we got...the Knicks LB not the Detroit LB...

I blame MJ as much for this as LB...I'm just in pain watching what we've been able to build get flushed...and as our guys (one by one) are traded for garbage I'll keep posting how well they're playing for other teams...

The argument that we have talent (or had when LB got here) that could not play together is pure BS...these guys were all very coachable and talented...it is for a coach to come in and get that talent together with a game plan...

We had FHB (one of the worst excuses for an NBA coach ever) and these guys stilled performed...and I'd venture to say if Bernie had been allowed to coach the team with KRich last year we would have made the playoffs...would we still have needed some pieces..YES...but we had the talent and then you bring in a "better" coach if that is what is needed...

But this crap...as I've said to the guys that wanted the team blown up...hope you're happy with what we end up with...

[spectre]

I love Swish, but now I'm ready to look on the positive side...

Swish (as others have mentioned) wasn't like Joe Johnson and could put it in the hole when we desperately needed it, and he was also pretty streaky. He didn't come on like Eddie Jones did back in the Hornets' days and just totally take over...which this poor shooting team could definitely have used.

Then take into account his last 2 seasons he'd be making 13.3 and 14.4 million bucks per year. That is some serious money for someone who doesn't typically bail us out of holes. I know part of his struggles this season is on account of trying to do what LB wanted, but even if he continued like last year that's still a very high price to pay. Add to that he's a liability...tho not as bad as initially...on D.

In the trade we got a point/forward in Diaw and in that respect he's similar to Odom, who I've always thought would be a big help to this team. Until we went to the 2 PG lineup (and IMO a big reason WHY we went to a 2 PG lineup) the only starter who had any real handles and could pass well was Felton. That's now changed.

We also got a lock down defender in Bell, who I've always liked. I think he fits a lot better with DJ than Swish did and will open it up for him to start. He's also going to bring leadership both on and off the court...and he has the playoff experience to back it up.

LB hasn't lost anything and IMO he's taking care of our weaknesses. I don't like losing Swish, but I can't deny I like the way he's trying to balance out the roster.

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

i'm not going to comment on all the LB rants..but

the bottom line is we weren't winning last year, we weren't winning this year.

last night showed that we don't have a go to scorer...jrich wasn't the go to scorer, and there is nobody clutch in our team.

the nba games are won in the 4q , and many in the last few minutes as this has been shown over and over this season.. we cannot close on games, it doesn't matter if we are the lowest scoring offense, if we are in a game at the end, and we can't close we lose.

will these guys solve the problem? no, but it makes everything more balanced. i still think we are missing someone like jason terry who is pretty much money in the 4q

[BRNC]

A lock down defender Bell was in his prime...and I've posted my regards for Doris Meow at the beginning of the post spectre....we addressed nothing with this trade except tho ship JRich out and not address a need...

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

I love Swish, but now I'm ready to look on the positive side...

Swish (as others have mentioned) wasn't like Joe Johnson and could put it in the hole when we desperately needed it, and he was also pretty streaky.


We also got a lock down defender in Bell,.

I couldn't agree with you more....if Jrich wasn't making his shots, our marging for error was close to zero.......with Diaw we get another scoring threat...the SG can be filled in with our current roster..if its not Ammo then Carroll...

And Bell...we need someone who can shot down a good scorer in the last few minutes..

We need someone like Diaw athletic enough to contain a PF in the last few minutes..

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

A lock down defender Bell was in his prime...and I've posted my regards for Doris Meow at the beginning of the post spectre....we addressed nothing with this trade except tho ship JRich out and not address a need...

what is our need

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

and one other thing...the LB stuff is ridiculous..

LB is the only one that made Iverson a winner..he had the vision to more Iverson to SG... when iverson is not good enough to be a PG yet undersized for a true SG.

sure, they didn't win, but they made the 76ers into a playoff contender.

there are plenty of merits to brown.

the knicks situation is an unfair comparison...i'm sure LB would have loved to bench Marbury...they didn't let him...because isaiah thomas didn't let him...isaiah was as much of the problem and marbury was..

look at d'antoni, he's suceeding because he has the respect of the other players on the team...because management SUPPORTED him

[spectre]

A lock down defender Bell was in his prime...and I've posted my regards for Doris Meow at the beginning of the post spectre....we addressed nothing with this trade except tho ship JRich out and not address a need...

He made 2nd team all defense just last season. Defense isn't all about speed but more smarts, positioning and grit. I think his (and most of his other team mates) dislike with the direction PHO has went this year under Porter has caused any dropoff in his D more than his age.

Bruce Bowen is still a pretty decent perimeter defender and he's 37 years old. Bell at 32 will still be better than anything we have or ever had.

[BRNC]

i'm not going to comment on all the LB rants..but

the bottom line is we weren't winning last year, we weren't winning this year.

last night showed that we don't have a go to scorer...jrich wasn't the go to scorer, and there is nobody clutch in our team.

the nba games are won in the 4q , and many in the last few minutes as this has been shown over and over this season.. we cannot close on games, it doesn't matter if we are the lowest scoring offense, if we are in a game at the end, and we can't close we lose.

will these guys solve the problem? no, but it makes everything more balanced. i still think we are missing someone like jason terry who is pretty much money in the 4q

NBA games are won by using good rotations and the correct players at the correct times...before last nights game (until the last 1-2 minutes) I had not watched any game with our team where I thought that was being done...and we did this with our (arguably) best two players not on the floor (JRich now with the Suns and Gerald)...and IMO it was only done because LB had no choice...

I'm not ranting about LB...but if what is unfolding does not bother you and you feel good about the direction the franchise is taking great...I've said before and I'll say it again...LB knows more about BB (coaching) than I'd know in 3-4 life times...but what he knows about being a GM...I think he showed his knowledge about that aspect of the game with the Knicks...

[BRNC]

He made 2nd team all defense just last season. Defense isn't all about speed but more smarts, positioning and grit. I think his (and most of his other team mates) dislike with the direction PHO has went this year under Porter has caused any dropoff in his D more than his age.

Bruce Bowen is still a pretty decent perimeter defender and he's 37 years old. Bell at 32 will still be better than anything we have or ever had.

Spectre I can only hope you are correct (and I hope I have to eat my words on this one)...and it will all unfold so again in a month if you're happy and think it was a good trade I'll be right there with you...I promise...

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

BRNC, lets put LB moves aside..

i just can't comprehend your point about winning with the team prior to Duds/Jrich leaving... i mean, we are getting out rebounded, we aren't going to the foul line, if Mek is shutdown we have no other scoring threat in the paint, we can't make FTs, if we don't hit our jump shots we are doomed...

i mean, there are just so many things that could go wrong with our prior formation..like i said, our margin for error was close to zero....

i honestly didn't see us winning unless we had gotten a top notch PF or C...that was unlikely to happen, nobody was interesting in our contracts

at the end of the day..this is a business..you take a risk, you give up an asset to get another assest hoping it provides a higher return..

you have to take your risks...and with the experience that LB brings to the table , i sure believe that the risk was took was well studied and not just some irrational decision driven by egos

[BRNC]

[quote=playoffs...PLAYOFFS?;104661]BRNC, lets put LB moves aside..

i just can't comprehend your point about winning with the team prior to Duds/Jrich leaving... i mean, we are getting out rebounded, we aren't going to the foul line, if Mek is shutdown we have no other scoring threat in the paint, we can't make FTs, if we don't hit our jump shots we are doomed...

i mean, there are just so many things that could go wrong with our prior formation..like i said, our margin for error was close to zero....

i honestly didn't see us winning unless we had gotten a top notch PF or C...that was unlikely to happen, nobody was interesting in our contracts

at the end of the day..this is a business..you take a risk, you give up an asset to get another assest hoping it provides a higher return..

Here is the challenge...go back and look at the team Dumars was putting together right before and during the time LB was hired...talented players and that was it..that was IT...they needed a coach (and as I've already said a piece or two)...you look at that team for the two years before they went to the playoffs and they were on no ones radar...no ones...

I've said (and no genius here) along with everyone else on the board we needed another big...but damn guy we out-rebounded the best rebounding team in the NBA last night...I have problems with the crap rotations we've been using and my gripe is they were crap only to start trades...that was the only motivation...the only reason...well now we are getting them so be happy...if you feel we needed to blow the team up great...we are so be happy...

[spectre]

Spectre I can only hope you are correct (and I hope I have to eat my words on this one)...and it will all unfold so again in a month if you're happy and think it was a good trade I'll be right there with you...I promise...

If this trade is considered successful it'll be because Diaw wasn't just a flash in the pan in '05/'06. I'm dubious too.

For me to consider it a good trade tho Diaw is going to have to step up a LOT. Even if he does decent I'm still going to think we gave up too much.

On a side note, my post wasn't really an argument against yours; I was just ready to move on and this was the most active thread.

[BRNC]

If this trade is considered successful it'll be because Diaw wasn't just a flash in the pan in '05/'06. I'm dubious too.

For me to consider it a good trade tho Diaw is going to have to step up a LOT. Even if he does decent I'm still going to think we gave up too much.

On a side note, my post wasn't really an argument against yours; I was just ready to move on and this was the most active thread.

You're a good dude and I always like your post (LOL you argue with me any time!)...but this trade is (not exclusively) what bothers me spectre...what is to come from this is what bothers me...again in and of itself I HOPE it turns out to be a good move (I have serious doubts) but I've seen this show before and I just hope that we're not in for the NY follies....

I've held my breathe until we made our first trade to see which LB we hired and for me it signals which LB we hired...again...I hope I'm 100% wrong about all of this (would be thrilled if I am)...problem is I don't think I am and it frustrate the he** out of me...

[playoffs...PLAYOFFS?]

BRNC, i appreciate you taking the time to argue my points..makes my day go quicker at work..!

let's say i'll agree to disagree whatever differences we have...

in the mean time, here's a funny article i found...i'm sure you and others will enjoy

Larry Brown To Trade Secretary Because She Is Unwilling To Conform To His Style Of Collating
http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/larry_brown_trades

[BRNC]

BRNC, i appreciate you taking the time to argue my points..makes my day go quicker at work..!

let's say i'll agree to disagree whatever differences we have...

in the mean time, here's a funny article i found...i'm sure you and others will enjoy

Larry Brown To Trade Secretary Because She Is Unwilling To Conform To His Style Of Collating
http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/larry_brown_trades

You have no idea how badly I needed that laugh...thanks...!

[Ampsportsduo]

but what he knows about being a GM...I think he showed his knowledge about that aspect of the game with the Knicks...

I'm trying to stay free of much of the venom that has been spit in recent days, but judging a 40-year coaching career on a 1-year stint with one of the most dysfunctional franchises in pro sports (at the time) hardly seems fair. It's akin to saying acting in 88 Minutes and Gigli cancels out Pacino's performances in the Godfather, Heat, Donnie Brasco, etc.

[BRNC]

Well said again...and I'm going by the entire career...LB has never been well behaved without a leash any place in the NBA...please don't take my word on this...but he's known for leaving in a snit when GMs up will not give in to him wanting to blow up teams (including the Pistons that he won a ring with)...the man does not seem to be able not to self implode...I don't know why...but no leash you get what you get...and he has no leash here so we're going to get what ever LB wants...good...bad...and indifferent....

The man falls in and out of love with players at the drop of a hat....and that is his hitory over his entire career in the NBA...the Knicks was just the straw (and the worst) because there he had just as inept (I. Thomas) accomplice to commit (for lack of a better) his crimes...it was more visable...more stark...and everyone saw...but this has been LB...you never get the genius without the "mad"...you either leash the mad (Joe Dumars) or deal with what ever comes..(the Knicks)...