The Definitive Raymond Felton Thread

[ziggy]

Lately a lot of our threads wind up being discussions about Ray and his ability/inability to be an effective PG for the Cats. So, instead of having all of the Ray talk scattered we can just gripe/defend/discuss it all in this thread.

First, here are my issues with Ray
* This is Ray's 4th season in the league, 3 of those 4 seasons he has shot under 40% from the field. To put it in perspective, DJ is shooting better from three point range than Ray is overall
* 3 different coaches (I'm not really sure if you can call :fhb: a coach ) have seen something in his game that makes them decide to play him at SG rather than what everyone perceived as his natural position PG.

* If you play him at SG he is too small and can't shoot!!

* This is the issue that gives me an ulcer... Despite having the worst FG% on the court (38.8% as of today) he insists on taking the bulk of the end of game shots. With that FG% he should be the LAST option.

:banghead:

On the positive side he has heart and is a hard worker, but I think we've seen enough to realize that the Ray as Charlotte Bobcats starting PG for the next 10 years simply isn't going to happen.

I've had enough, he needs to be benched or traded.

Have a nice day:biggrin:

[spectre]

And it absolutely drives me up a wall when Ray just has to be the one to shoot the damn thing at the most crucial times. He just dribbles some clock off and then tries to be like MJ - and he cant. I do like Ray as a spot up shooter in the open. Many times you see him be the man who gets the kick out and he drains a shot. That is where he is at his best in shooting. But he suxs as a creator of his own shot, cause he cannot create his own shot.

From the game thread.

My question is why Larry Brown lets him do that. We can blame Felton for trying to take over, but at the end of the day it's LB who is the one allowing him to do it.

He could flat out bench him. He could tell him he'll get pulled after every stupid shot. He could get pulled when he doesn't make the pass.

LB is one of the best coaches out there. Why does he allow this to continually happen?

[spectre]

From the Observer:



Charlotte Bobcats coach Larry Brown loves his point guard's intentions, toughness and accountability.
Raymond Felton's judgment, now that's something Brown needs to fine-tune.
“Raymond tries to do the right thing, but he tries to do too much,” Brown said after the Bobcats wasted a 17-point comeback in a 93-89 loss to the New York Knicks on Tuesday. “When you're driving to the goal, and not getting the call, you've got to be smarter than that.”
Brown was referring to Felton's awkward attempt at a layup with 48 seconds left and the Bobcats down two. That shot came eight seconds into the possession, never had a chance to go in, and led them right off the path to a victory.
Felton, 5-of-17 from the field, admitted that wasn't his best moment.
“I know there have been some situations where I get up in the air and other guys are open,” he said. “Maybe next time” he won't commit to shooting so soon.


From the offiical site:



(On Raymond Felton)
"I thought he played great. Raymond is trying to do the right thing but I think he’s trying to do too much."

[bing!]

Tenaciousness and willingness does not equate immediate result, and that, right now, is what the team, players and your run of the mill fans want. In his four seasons in the league he's proven he could be a more than adequate back-up PG on a very solid team, where he could chip in as an ocassional SG, but his future stint in Charlotte is under a big '?'

If trading him (and Matty or Nazr maybe) could yield a solid SG/SF and a tough biggy, I'm all game.

[ohara831]

Those were two great posts Spectre. The two quotes show how something can be said and translated differently or even having parts of the quote cut out. Also a very good point about LB allowing Ray to take over. I dont understand the time out call late, only to have Ray drive for a layup? They did not need a TO to call that play, did they? The man has great heart, and plays thru injuries, but his judgment hurts us awful bad at times. It is just so frustrating. Great game, bad game, bad game, avg game, bad game, great game, avg game, bad game, bad game, etc... It just goes on and on, and there seem to be as many bad games as the great and avg combined. Or maybe his bad ones just stick out more. Crap, I dont know. I just want to win guys. I just want this team to be a Playoff caliber team. Dont have to be a 60 win team every year. Just be a team that at least isn't a perennial Lottery team.

[spectre]

That's exactly it.

I know LB wants him out there for his defense, and he's also doing all the little things (higher rebounding, steals, etc.) that LB loves. For most of the game he played solid last night except the entire team playing bad defensively in the 1st...think I read somewhere he was 2 of 6 (?) after 3 quarters...then shot like 10 times in the 4th.

As hard as LB is on him...and I've seen him on TV chewing his ass out...why does this seem to continually happen?

[ziggy]

As hard as LB is on him...and I've seen him on TV chewing his ass out...why does this seem to continually happen?
Its baffling to me, I wish I knew.

[TattoodCats4life]

As many good games Felton has there are always more bad. I mean the Ham Biscuit couldn't coach, and McInnis couldn't play, but he was looking up the right tree moving felton down the pole. In my honest opinion he may flourish on another team (one that asks him to take 3-4 shots per night). I'd love to trade him and some junk in for some older PG and some junk that larry hand selects. Larry is the kind of coach who will find treasure in someone else's trash, but larry needs to get back in the dumpster again to do it.

[Ghost Kat]

I think we can all see Raymond is the cause of alot of the offensive problems. Now it's not just the fact that he can't shoot, He's turning the ball over more or driving to the lane and loosing the ball or getting blocked. It's clear he wants to be THE MAN, the go to player, But seriously he's not ever going to be that. It's almost sad to see Lil Sean showing more effort then Felton.
Another big problem Felton has is he can't guard anyone. I understand SG are bigger then PG's but Felton can't even stay in front of whoever he's guarding.
I have never turned on a player from my team so quickly as i have for Felton in his NBA career. As a UNC fan i knew what type of player Felton was, I just assumed he'd get better...I was clearly wrong.

[SWedd523]

I think the idea that Raymond is trying too hard is exactly what the problem is. At the beginning of the season he was all about being a good teammate and helping DJ succeed, but he probably had no clue that DJ would be as good as he is already. So he's in that "Oh shit" state of mind where he realizes that DJ is soon going to be better than him.

So now he's trying too hard and pressing and trying to show that he's worth the money hence his declining play as of late. We should trade him while his value is high and let's move along as a team and get better with DJ at the head and we bring in a solid backup for him when he hits that inevitable rookie wall.


p.s. I love the fact that he's trying so hard (too hard, in fact). It's highly welcomed in my book and I would love it if some of our other players showed the same drive. I'll take a guy that works TOO hard wayyyy before I take a guy who doesn't work hard enough Mr. Morrison and Mr. May

[Ghost Kat]

p.s. I love the fact that he's trying so hard (too hard, in fact). It's highly welcomed in my book

I have to disagree, But only with the fact that IMO this is the same Felton from last year , the year before, on and on. Only now with respectable competition has Felton been shown for what he is. Felton has always play'd hard. He's not play'n to hard or over reaching. I think LB is just being nice. Felton looks like Ron Harper pretending to be Jordan, Felton is trying to be the MAN on this team , He's been tryin to do it the whole year. We have to trade him while he still has value.

[coordinator0]

I think we should trade him if he hasn't shown any interest in re-signing next year. In fact I wouldn't mind trading him for a first round pick if that's our best offer and it's near the deadline, I just want to get something for him. This all changes if he has shown interest in staying here, at a reasonable price of course. This next draft might not be star-laden but I think it's going to be deep, and we could use the extra pick we get (or maybe it would be the only first round pick we have, depending on how the rest of the season goes) to get a true SG. Unless it's a multiple team deal, I don't see us getting good value in terms of a player for Felton and I would rather get a draft pick than trade him for expirings/keep him and let him walk.

[dav7z]

Im all for making a smart trade for Felton but damn? A lot act as if hes a bust or just trash , no respect for him at all. The kid has value more than most think on hear . After you guys finish blaming Felton for a ever thing . Whos next?????
First it was hang nail Rush that made us loose, then Boggans, on to Premo, To JAKE , to May , and Morrison and now its Felton on the SHIT LIST,Whos next Bell DJ , Diaw , Mek Crash . Some times this list changes from game to game at Bobcatsplanet.
As for me i prefer to let L Brown make those desisions for a couple years and let him decide who should play. I truely think thats our best chances to get to the playoffs.
If he wants to beanch Felton now ill go along with it . But i don't think hes going to start DJ til Brown thinks DJ is ready . Clearly Brown thinks Felton is the better choice right now ,or he would have all ready made the switch.

[LB4President]

I would think that we are going to hold onto him until the deadline, unless there is a no brainer type deal that pops up. Once teams get a sense of urgency they will be willing to give up more for Felton. Portland for example may be willing to part with one of their swingmen if they view Felton as the final piece to there title run puzzle, but for now I think we are stuck with him. I would be willing to give him up for a slightly less talented two guard if we got a reasonable pick out of the deal.

[TattoodCats4life]

I would think that we are going to hold onto him until the deadline, unless there is a no brainer type deal that pops up. Once teams get a sense of urgency they will be willing to give up more for Felton. Portland for example may be willing to part with one of their swingmen if they view Felton as the final piece to there title run puzzle, but for now I think we are stuck with him. I would be willing to give him up for a slightly less talented two guard if we got a reasonable pick out of the deal.

Felton for McCants and a non lottery first rounder. I'm not sur what other fodder would need to be added to make it work salary wise.

[bobcats_express]

* If you play him at SG he is too small and can't shoot!!

* Despite having the worst FG% on the court he insists on taking the bulk of the end of game shots. With that FG% he should be the LAST option.

but I think we've seen enough to realize that the Ray as Charlotte Bobcats starting PG for the next 10 years simply isn't going to happen.

I've had enough, he needs to be benched or traded.


yeah LB: dont use him as SG please!
although he hasnt got a great shot i like his leadership late in the game
although he isnt the bobcats starting PG of the next decade (DJ is!), there is no doubt that Felton deserves to be a starter on another team- he has the skills to be a great player in another system

[bellringer21]

Felton for McCants and a non lottery first rounder. I'm not sur what other fodder would need to be added to make it work salary wise.

Why would the T'Wolves want Felton now? They arent making the playoffs and if Felton is a guy they want, they should just sign him in the offseason. I can see Portland trying to get him, but Blake has done really well and I doubt they want to mess with chemistry.

I almost think the Lakers are the best chance to take on Felton....

[spectre]

Because who ever traded for him now would have Bird rights?

Whoever commented about Felton's D is being a little facetious. One of the things he has done well this year is defend. He has had problems with some guys...Gordon, Crawford...but they were hitting everything contested. Against others like Devin Harris he did an outstanding job.

His defensive play vs. DJ's is night and day...and that's probably why DJ isn't starting yet and why Felton gets all the burn.

[spectre]

As I referenced in the Ammo thread supposedly we're shopping both him and Felton, and probably why Singletary was 1) traded for and 2) why he's been getting some PT lately. I'd be surprised that LB would be content to go with just those guys, but because of the circumstances I guess I won't be shocked.

Maybe that's why LB has been letting Felton shoot so much, in the hopes he'll string a couple of good games together and get some GM salivating?

[DanielWheeler]

I think he has an option for next year...right?

[coordinator0]

I think he has an option for next year...right?

I'm pretty sure there's only a qualifying offer and there are no options involved. If he doesn't accept the offer and goes somewhere else we get nothing.

[Keetch]

Some else can confirm this, but: At the end of this season, it's the Bobcats prerogative to make Felton a qualifying offer, thus retaining rights to match any other teams offer to Ray as a Restricted Free Agent. It's not for Ray to accept or reject I don't think.

[Ghost Kat]

quote From dav7z107419: Im all for making a smart trade for Felton but damn? A lot act as if hes a bust or just trash , no respect for him at all. The kid has value more than most think on hear . After you guys finish blaming Felton for a ever thing . Whos next?????
First it was hang nail Rush that made us loose, then Boggans, on to Premo, To JAKE , to May , and Morrison and now its Felton on the SHIT LIST,Whos next Bell DJ , Diaw , Mek Crash . Some times this list changes from game to game at Bobcatsplanet.

I just want to point out that all the names you listed were and are players who suck. Players that haven't performed or players who should have never been added to this team. The fact that we will call out players is part of the American freedom to say whatever we like. So whoever is next on the shit list will most like deserve to be on that list cuz they are play'n like shit.

[dav7z]

quote From dav7z107419: Im all for making a smart trade for Felton but damn? A lot act as if hes a bust or just trash , no respect for him at all. The kid has value more than most think on hear . After you guys finish blaming Felton for a ever thing . Whos next?????
First it was hang nail Rush that made us loose, then Boggans, on to Premo, To JAKE , to May , and Morrison and now its Felton on the SHIT LIST,Whos next Bell DJ , Diaw , Mek Crash . Some times this list changes from game to game at Bobcatsplanet.

I just want to point out that all the names you listed were and are players who suck. Players that haven't performed or players who should have never been added to this team. The fact that we will call out players is part of the American freedom to say whatever we like. So whoever is next on the shit list will most like deserve to be on that list cuz they are play'n like shit.

So two years from now DJ will be on your list if not sooner.
DJ and Felton score about 13ppg apiece, Right now Felton hands out more assist, twice as many but DJ is a rookie. Felton is a far better defencive player . DJ will be good but not a CP3 type player if thats what you think you getting you in for a disapointment.
I have no problem trading Felton it ony makes sence . Trading him and his very favorable contract could only net big gains . But what gets me is you act as if we taking out the trash . Felts is NBA quility and has nice NBA value . Much more than you think . Traded at the right time he will net us a first and a nice rotation player. I truely hope your expections of DJ are realistic, and you not ready to give him away two for just trash." Like you doing with Felton.

[dnbman]

So two years from now DJ will be on your list if not sooner.
DJ and Felton score about 13ppg apiece, Right now Felton hands out more assist, twice as many but DJ is a rookie. Felton is a far better defencive player . DJ will be good but not a CP3 type player if thats what you think you getting you in for a disapointment.
I have no problem trading Felton it ony makes sence . Trading him and his very favorable contract could only net big gains . But what gets me is you act as if we taking out the trash . Felts is NBA quility and has nice NBA value . Much more than you think . Traded at the right time he will net us a first and a nice rotation player. I truely hope your expections of DJ are realistic, and you not ready to give him away two for just trash." Like you doing with Felton.

Agreed. I'm trying not to defend Felton too much because I've done so plenty in the past and, frankly, expected more from him this season. However, as much as he can be criticized for shooting us out of games, we wouldn't be in most of those games if it wasn't for Felton. The same night he got blasted for taking too many shots, he got 8 assists and 8 rebounds.

He's trying to do too much and he's taking too many shots. But he is a great player.

Just the same, I don't think he's going to be successful in Charlotte. I think he needs to be traded to another team where he'll feel more obliged to take a back seat to the other players and slowly rebuild confidence. It's probably best for everyone involved if we trade him by the all-star break.

However, if we're going to trade him, we need to get one of two things:
A. a definite rotation player at the 4 or the 1. These guys don't need to be all-stars, but they can't be gambles.
B. a high reward type young guy who hasn't met expectations (like Anthony Randolph) or a decent pick.

As Dav said, this "take out the trash," "just get rid of him" mentality is absurd as Felton is a good basketball player. We will not get better by losing him. But, we will probably get better if we get a solid player in return.

[Ghost Kat]

U guys are funny... I don't think anyone atleast not lately has gone so far as to Call Felton Trash, But lets face facts Felton is under producing even from last years totals. His choices in late close games have hurt this team lately. He may not be the cause of a certain loss but he sure didn't help any during those games.
To answer your question about DJ being on my shit list...I was a fan of Felton when he came to the NBA just like I am of DJ. I like PG's, But if DJ starts fucking up like Felton has been your damn right he'll be on my shit list. The people trying to defend Feltons Value, I have to give you a standing ovation. Cuz every game Felton shits on your credibility to make any arguements on his behalf. Recently I've slowed down my trashing of Felton and just let his play say everything for me. If it's so absurd to want to get rid of Felton or if it's abusrd for us to trash him for his poor play , Then what are we suppose to say about him? We trash Okafor for being weak downlow, We trash Carroll and Morrison for not hitting shots. I've even trash DJ early on for shooting to much. Felton though, Has pulled atleast 60-75 % of the fans against him...He may have value to other teams but Bobcats fans aren't in agreement with you over his value to this team.

[Ghost Kat]

Agreed. I'm trying not to defend Felton too much because I've done so plenty in the past and, frankly, expected more from him this season. However, as much as he can be criticized for shooting us out of games, we wouldn't be in most of those games if it wasn't for Felton. The same night he got blasted for taking too many shots, he got 8 assists and 8 rebounds.



Sorry I have to disagree, No one upset cuz Felton takes to many shots, It's that he doesn't hit those shots. Plus Felton gets the ball with 5 seconds left on the shot clock. Why they give him the ball knowing he'll probably miss the shot is beyond my education level. Felton plays the SG role which means he can crash the boards alot easier then a PG who has to protect the back court. Since he's supppose to be a PG he should get assisits one of the things he can do well. I can't really agree Felton has keep us in any games lately. He'll shoot 10 times hit two shots and it just so happen one of those shots will be late and either tie the game up or get us close. But lets not to forget all the other open shots he missed thru out the game. Or bad passes, or poor Defense. IMO he plays way to many minutes a game. He looks tired alot, You can see it in his body language.

[dav7z]

U guys are funny... I don't think anyone atleast not lately has gone so far as to Call Felton Trash, But lets face facts Felton is under producing even from last years totals. His choices in late close games have hurt this team lately. He may not be the cause of a certain loss but he sure didn't help any during those games.
To answer your question about DJ being on my shit list...I was a fan of Felton when he came to the NBA just like I am of DJ. I like PG's, But if DJ starts fucking up like Felton has been your damn right he'll be on my shit list. The people trying to defend Feltons Value, I have to give you a standing ovation. Cuz every game Felton shits on your credibility to make any arguements on his behalf. Recently I've slowed down my trashing of Felton and just let his play say everything for me. If it's so absurd to want to get rid of Felton or if it's abusrd for us to trash him for his poor play , Then what are we suppose to say about him? We trash Okafor for being weak downlow, We trash Carroll and Morrison for not hitting shots. I've even trash DJ early on for shooting to much. Felton though, Has pulled atleast 60-75 % of the fans against him...He may have value to other teams but Bobcats fans aren't in agreement with you over his value to this team.


It must be tough to have a whole team on your list . . According to you we may as well go on and trade DJ too because hes going to, as you put it fuck up some where along the line.
By saying Felton has trade value hurts my credability . What does that say about L Browns credibility by starting Felton. Im guessing we should can Brown too because hes starting Felton. My question to you is if Felton sucks as bad as you make it to be why does Brown start him? ALL so what do you think Felton is worth a 2010 late second round pick ? Just what would you be satified to get for Felton. dnbman and i both think a trade is comimg and in ordor but where we differ from you is we think Felton has some value .
So please tell us with out hurting your credability,how to deal with trash like Felton.

[dnbman]

Sorry I have to disagree, No one upset cuz Felton takes to many shots, It's that he doesn't hit those shots.

That's why most people tend to think he shoots too much, that he would be a lot better if he was more selective on his shooting. There have been plenty of people who criticize Felton's play simply by saying he shoots too much.


Plus Felton gets the ball with 5 seconds left on the shot clock. Why they give him the ball knowing he'll probably miss the shot is beyond my education level.

You can argue that Felton takes too many shots or that he makes poor decisions. But you can't blame Felton for getting the ball late in the shot clock and having to put up a shot. Again, there's plenty of reason to criticize Felton, but his teammates passing it to him in a situation that demands a quick decision isn't one of them.


Felton plays the SG role which means he can crash the boards a lot easier then a PG who has to protect the back court.

He gets great rebounds for a guy his size no matter what his position is. There aren't many guards who get as many rebounds as he does, unless you're talking about swingman type guys like Kobe. Give the guy some credit for what he does do right.


Since he's supppose to be a PG he should get assisits one of the things he can do well.

I think I'm reading that as you DO think Felton is good at passing the ball and getting assists. I may be mistaken. He's 14th in assists per game, by the way.


I can't really agree Felton has keep us in any games lately. He'll shoot 10 times hit two shots and it just so happen one of those shots will be late and either tie the game up or get us close. But lets not to forget all the other open shots he missed thru out the game. Or bad passes, or poor Defense. IMO he plays way to many minutes a game. He looks tired alot, You can see it in his body language.

He's actually a pretty good defender, and while his TO rate isn't great, it isn't really that bad. Consider that Diaw and Wallace both average 2.3 and Felton averages 2.6 TOs per game.

He may be tired, at least mentally. I won't argue that. On back to back nights, he definitely looks a bit slower. However, he offers a lot to help us by attacking and playing with intensity.

My biggest complaint about Felton is that he simply hasn't figured out, at least on a consistent basis, how to use all of his tools in an efficient way. He CAN shoot. He CAN shoot outside. He CAN dangerously attack the rim. He CAN make great passes. However, he CAN'T seem to do any of those things in any kind of regular fashion. To me, the issue is simply Felton learning how to control himself and take advantage of what the other team is giving him. However, I think he feels so much of a burden, warranted or not, to constantly make things happen that he ends up losing more games than he wins for us. That's why I think we need to trade him.

I don't think we need to blame all of our losses on Felton though. Again, you take away Felton and this team loses most of the other games as well.

[Slam]

He gets great rebounds for a guy his size no matter what his position is. There aren't many guards who get as many rebounds as he does, unless you're talking about swingman type guys like Kobe. Give the guy some credit for what he does do right.
As many or more (PG's):
Kidd
Paul
Wade
Rondo
Roy
Ford
Robinson
Westbrook
Mayo
Miller
Duhon
Iverson
Rose
Ridnour
Bibby
Foye
Calderon
Nelson

(then there are a slew that are only .1 -.4 less a game than him, like Davis, Mo Williams, Alston, Stuckey, Harris, Parker, West, Jack, Watson)

[Slam]

Thanks again so much supersub15 (Raps mod at RGM) for creating the data and allowing me to share it with our board.


I've compiled some comparative stats for all starting PGs in the league. Here's the breakdown.

Jump-shooters vs. rim-attackers:


Player JUMP% INSIDE%
Rajon Rondo 40.0 60.0
Russell Westbrook 51.0 49.0
Rodney Stuckey 53.0 47.0
Andre Miller 56.0 44.0
Derrick Rose 58.0 42.0
Chris Duhon 63.0 37.0
Devin Harris 64.0 36.0
Tony Parker 64.0 36.0
T.J. Ford 65.0 35.0
Beno Udrih 65.0 35.0
Raymond Felton 67.0 33.0
Mike Conley 68.0 32.0
Randy Foye 69.0 31.0
Deron Williams 69.0 31.0
Baron Davis 71.0 29.0
Chris Paul 71.0 29.0
D.J. Augustin 73.0 27.0
C.J. Watson 74.0 26.0
Mario Chalmers 74.0 26.0
Rafer Alston 75.0 25.0
Mike James 75.0 25.0
Jameer Nelson 76.0 24.0
Jason Kidd 82.0 18.0
Mo Williams 84.0 16.0
Chauncey Billups 84.0 16.0
Jose Calderon 85.0 15.0
Steve Nash 85.0 15.0
Derek Fisher 86.0 14.0
Luke Ridnour 89.0 11.0
Steve Blake 92.0 8.0
Mike Bibby 93.0 7.0


Obviously, Rondo can't shoot and so is forced to drive time and again. I think a good mixture is the Devin Harris and Tony Parker mix of 65% to 35%, but if your jumpshot is very good, then it doesn't really matter, as evidenced by Jameer Nelson, Chauncey Billups and Jose Calderon at the bottom of the list.

Now, the above numbers don't mean much without looking at the conversion rate of their attempts. TS% (True Shooting Percentage) allows to see who are the most efficient shooters from all distances (FGA, 3FGA, FTA).

Most efficient shooters:


Player TS%
Jose Calderon 63.1
Jameer Nelson 61.6
Steve Nash 61.1
Chris Paul 60.9
Devin Harris 59.0
Chauncey Billups 58.9
Steve Blake 58.7
Mike Bibby 58.5
Mo Williams 58.4
Chris Duhon 58.0
Rajon Rondo 56.5
Mario Chalmers 56.5
Derek Fisher 56.2
Tony Parker 55.7
C.J. Watson 55.7
Rodney Stuckey 53.6
D.J. Augustin 55.5
Deron Williams 53.4
T.J. Ford 52.8
Derrick Rose 52.7
Andre Miller 51.9
Luke Ridnour 51.3
Mike Conley 51.0
Randy Foye 49.6
Beno Udrih 49.2
Russell Westbrook 49.0
Jason Kidd 48.9
Rafer Alston 48.3
Mike James 47.4
Raymond Felton 46.1
Baron Davis 45.5


It's good to know however who are the usage of each of these players to figure out who helps his team with his shooting and who is killing his team with his inefficiency:

Usage Rate:


Player USG%
Tony Parker 32.3
Devin Harris 28.4
Baron Davis 26.1
Russell Westbrook 25.7
Chris Paul 24.7
Rodney Stuckey 23.3
Deron Williams 23.3
Mo Williams 22.8
Derrick Rose 22.7
Jameer Nelson 22.6
Steve Nash 21.9
Randy Foye 21.8
D.J. Augustin 21.7
Mike James 21.7
T.J. Ford 21.6
Raymond Felton 21.6
Chauncey Billups 21.5
Mike Bibby 20.8
Andre Miller 20.8
Beno Udrih 19.9
Rafer Alston 18.9
Jason Kidd 18.1
Luke Ridnour 18.1
Rajon Rondo 17.9
Steve Blake 17.7
Jose Calderon 16.7
Mike Conley 16.4
C.J. Watson 16.3
Derek Fisher 16.2
Mario Chalmers 16.0
Chris Duhon 14.3


Baron Davis is obviously using too many possessions and when you combine with his putrid TS%, then he's sinking his team. Calderon on the other hand is not helping his team when he should. He leads all PGs with his TS%, but uses only 16.7% of his team's possessions. That's too passive. He should be among the team's leaders in shot attempts, probably ahead of Bosh, due to his incredible efficiency.

Well, if you're not shooting, you should be doing something else on the court, like assists and defensive rebounding:


Player AST%
Chris Paul 56.5
Deron Williams 44.8
Jose Calderon 41.0
Tony Parker 40.8
Steve Nash 39.0
Baron Davis 38.5
Rajon Rondo 38.4
Devin Harris 32.7
Chauncey Billups 31.7
Rodney Stuckey 31.5
Chris Duhon 30.9
Jameer Nelson 30.7
Andre Miller 30.1
Luke Ridnour 29.5
Raymond Felton 29.4
Derrick Rose 27.8
Mike Bibby 26.9
Beno Udrih 26.3
D.J. Augustin 26.2
Russell Westbrook 26.0
T.J. Ford 25.8
Steve Blake 23.9
Randy Foye 23.8
Rafer Alston 23.5
Mario Chalmers 22.3
Mo Williams 21.3
Mike Conley 20.9
Mike James 20.5
Derek Fisher 16.6
Jason Kidd 15.0
C.J. Watson 14.1


Calderon is top 3 in that regard, as 41% of his possessions end up with an assist. Chris Paul detroys everybody in this category.


CODE: SELECT ALL
Player DRB%
Chris Paul 14.5
Jason Kidd 14.3
Rajon Rondo 13.3
Mike Conley 13.1
T.J. Ford 12.1
Luke Ridnour 11.7
Mike Bibby 10.4
Jose Calderon 10.2
Raymond Felton 10.0
Rodney Stuckey 9.8
C.J. Watson 9.8
Tony Parker 9.4
Steve Nash 9.3
Mario Chalmers 9.0
Devin Harris 8.8
Chris Duhon 8.7
Mike James 8.7
Deron Williams 8.6
Rafer Alston 8.5
Baron Davis 8.4
Derrick Rose 8.4
Beno Udrih 8.4
Steve Blake 8.4
Andre Miller 8.3
Derek Fisher 7.8
Russell Westbrook 7.7
Chauncey Billups 7.0
D.J. Augustin 6.8
Jameer Nelson 6.2
Mo Williams 6.1
Randy Foye 6.0


Again, Calderon is doing his part on the defensive glass with a good Defensive Rebounding rating. It's amazing though that Chris Paul, probably one of the shortest guys on th ecourt, leads all PGs in this category.

Who takes care of the ball the most? PPR (Pure Point Rating) is a stat that replaces Ast/TO and is a better indicator of the best PGs at taking care of the ball. Anything at 10 and above is considered exceptional:


Player PPR
Chris Paul 12.5
Jose Calderon 10.6
Jason Kidd 8.7
Rajon Rondo 8.5
Chauncey Billups 8.1
Deron Williams 7.9
Baron Davis 7.6
Chris Duhon 6.7
Andre Miller 5.7
Tony Parker 5.6
Mike Bibby 5.6
Devin Harris 5.3
Steve Nash 5.3
Rafer Alston 5.0
Rodney Stuckey 4.9
Steve Blake 4.9
Derek Fisher 4.5
Jameer Nelson 4.4
Mike Conley 4.4
Raymond Felton 4.2
Luke Ridnour 4.2
T.J. Ford 4.0
Derrick Rose 3.4
D.J. Augustin 3.2
Randy Foye 3.0
Mario Chalmers 2.7
Beno Udrih 1.8
C.J. Watson 1.8
Mo Williams 1.7
Russell Westbrook -0.3
Mike James -0.9


What can I say, Chris Paul is amazing. Calderon is not too shabby either.

Now, for the final and best stat in my opinion: Net PER. This is basically what each PG produces from the PG position for 48 minutes, and what he allows to the opponent PG in 48 minutes. This is not an extrapolation. These 48 minutes are actual played minutes.


Player PER48 OPP PER48 NET PER
Chris Paul 33.5 18.7 14.8
Tony Parker 26.2 16.5 9.7
Devin Harris 28.0 18.8 9.2
Chauncey Billups 22.7 14.5 8.2
Jameer Nelson 22.8 16.1 6.7
Rajon Rondo 21.9 17.4 4.5
Mike Bibby 21.1 16.9 4.2
Jose Calderon 20.8 16.6 4.2
Derrick Rose 18.0 13.8 4.2
Russell Westbrook 17.7 13.8 3.9
D.J. Augustin 15.6 13.3 2.4
Steve Nash 19.8 17.9 1.9
Steve Blake 17.8 16.0 1.8
T.J. Ford 17.7 15.9 1.8
Mario Chalmers 15.1 13.3 1.8
Deron Williams 18.5 17.4 1.1
Baron Davis 17.7 16.7 1.0
C.J. Watson 15.3 14.3 1.0
Andre Miller 18.7 18.6 0.1
Mo Williams 21.1 21.7 -0.6
Derek Fisher 18.4 19.8 -1.4
Rodney Stuckey 19.7 21.2 -1.5
Beno Udrih 14.8 16.3 -1.5
Mike James 14.7 16.3 -1.6
Jason Kidd 19.7 21.4 -1.7
Rafer Alston 14.6 16.7 -2.1
Mike Conley 13.7 16.3 -2.6
Luke Ridnour 15.1 18.4 -3.3
Chris Duhon 14.6 18.6 -4.0
Raymond Felton 13.0 18.0 -5.0
Randy Foye 11.3 19.5 -8.2


Obviously, positive production is good. Positive production over 10 is just out of this world.

I can safely say that Chris Paul is the best PG in the world. The rest is up for debate.

Debate is now open...

[dnbman]

As many or more (PG's):
Kidd
Paul
Wade
Rondo
Roy
Ford
Robinson
Westbrook
Mayo
Miller
Duhon
Iverson
Rose
Ridnour
Bibby
Foye
Calderon
Nelson

(then there are a slew that are only .1 -.4 less a game than him, like Davis, Mo Williams, Alston, Stuckey, Harris, Parker, West, Jack, Watson)

Let's get rid of him. I don't care anymore. I'm just tired of everyone blaming Felton for all of our losses when he's not losing games by himself.

[BobCatsFanInTx]

The Bobcats will not get a quality veteren in a trade that involves Raymond Felton. They are lucky to get anything of value for him. I don't think the sole problem with the team is Felton. I do however have an issue with his stupdity and wrecklessness at times. Still as I have said in other post, Raymond has had a bad stretch when having to carry the load. Raymond should not be the starter when he plays like he has. If DJ comes back 100% and plays at a high level it may help the team enough to where Raymond does not feel the need to try and carry the team.

If the team had some depth Felton would not be such an issue. This team is weak on the bench and it shows late in games. Unfortunately, I think this is a lottery team unless we somehow can trade our garbage for something of value.

[dnbman]

I just came across this, and wanted to share it with you. Take from it what you will. I found the analysis to be extremely impressive and interesting:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=866979&start=0

That was a pretty interesting breakdown of pgs. Nice post.

[SWedd523]

I'm pretty sure there's only a qualifying offer and there are no options involved. If he doesn't accept the offer and goes somewhere else we get nothing.


I just came across this, and wanted to share it with you. Take from it what you will. I found the analysis to be extremely impressive and interesting:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=866979&start=0
What really surprises me is Calderon and Jameer Nelson. Calderon is (by those stats) the second best PG in the NBA, wouldn't have expected that. Jameer Nelson seems to be a VERY solid PG for me thinking he's a mediocre talent.

Chris Paul is just basically the best PG in the world and there's no disputing that fact.


For the lazier folks, Raymond Felton turns 67% of his possessions into jump shots vs. attacking the rim. That seems alarmingly high for a guy who can't really shoot that well. He needs to take the ball to the rim much more a la Rajon Rondo who only shoots on 40% of his attempts.

Felton is second to last in true shooting percentage at 46.1% That combined with his high jumper percentage really shows how terribly inefficient he is on the offensive end.

Felton uses 21.6% of the teams possessions. In other words, one out of every five times down the court, he's the one who takes the shot. That's not too bad as there's five guys on the court so he doesn't use the ball more than his fair share, but I would like to see that a little bit lower.

29.4% of Felton's possessions are turned into assists. That can be looked at in many different ways; he could take too many shots or his teammates could not finish the passes. He's simply killed by Chris Paul who has a 56.5%.

Felton's DRP (Defensive Rebounding Percentage) is 10.0% You would think the defensive glass is a place where he would excel, but he's 9th on this list behind the likes of Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, and even T.J. Ford. He's not shabby in the least, but if he's not that much of an offensive threat I would like to see it higher. Being behind Chris Paul on THIS rating is simply vincent-like to me.

PPR (Pure Point Rating) is a stat that replaces Ast/TO and is a better indicator of the best PGs at taking care of the ball. Anything at 10 and above is considered exceptional. Raymond Felton is an abysmal 4.2. He's simply one of the least efficient PG's in the league at this point in the season. There's no combating that little factoid.

And last but not least, Raymond Felton has a -5.0 (yes NEGATIVE) net per48 production rating. He is only above Randy Foye who is a terrible -8.2. Simply put, he does more harm to the team than he does good. This is a tough percetange though as the middle of the pack is basically 0 +/-1. Chris Paul is an otherworldly 14.8, Jameer a 6.7, Steve Nash a 1.9, and Jason Kidd a -1.7.



So let's face it guys, there really isn't much discussion to it, Raymond Felton isn't much more than a mediocre PG. I hate saying that as I think he's a great guy and a solid NBA player, but he just doesn't fit for this team anymore. It's time for the changing of the guard (pun intended) to DJ and time for us to move on as a franchise. No doubt will his numbers improve on a better team so hopefully if we don't retain him he moves on to a team that can maximize his talent.

[Slam]

Let's get rid of him. I don't care anymore. I'm just tired of everyone blaming Felton for all of our losses when he's not losing games by himself.
Don't get me wrong dnb - I'm not putting all the blame of our losses on Felts at all. He's not the only guy paddling that boat. All of the guys are guilty, just some more (and more often) than others.

I was just interested in the "There aren't many guards who get as many rebounds as he does" statement and wanted to look into it. I will say I was surprised with what I found. I thought Felts would be at the top of the list, not in the middle/lower half.

[dnbman]

Don't get me wrong dnb - I'm not putting all the blame of our losses on Felts at all. He's not the only guy paddling that boat. All of the guys are guilty, just some more (and more often) than others.

I was just interested in the "There aren't many guards who get as many rebounds as he does" statement and wanted to look into it. I will say I was surprised with what I found. I thought Felts would be at the top of the list, not in the middle/lower half.

Your list of "pgs" was a bit misleading though. Half of those guys play as much or more sg as they do pg and are actually taller players that are legitimate sgs. On NBA.com, Felton is ranked like 25 out of all guards, including guys like Kobe.

Now, that doesn't take into account the many guards you mentioned that are close to him, which suggests he's pretty mediocre. However, he's not in the lower half of guards for sure. However, I did think he was higher than that compared to other pgs, so I was definitely wrong.

[Slam]

Thanks for breaking all that down Swedd. I was going to but didn't want people to think I was biased or trying to single Felts out. I just found it all very interesting.

I will add this:


29.4% of Felton's possessions are turned into assists. That can be looked at in many different ways; he could take too many shots or his teammates could not finish the passes. He's simply killed by Chris Paul who has a 56.5%.
I think this is a mix of Felts playing with guys who are not efficient themselves (which effects Felts numbers) and Paul playing basketoop with Chandler and having a very efficient PF in West.


Jameer Nelson seems to be a VERY solid PG for me thinking he's a mediocre talent.
This is THE most telling thing. I see a LOT of Felts in Nelson. After 3 years in the L a lot of fans (Magic included) questioning if Nelson belonged in the NBA. Too small, couldn't shoot, not fast enough - blah, blah, blah.

What a lot of people didn't know is that Nelson was the off court leader of the team. He personally paid for the entire team to fly out to his place each summer just to "get together". He was the one who phoned each of his team mates twice a week each during each summer just to stay in touch.

So the Magic lock him up long term at a pretty good rate ($7.5mil per year for 5 years) which, at the time, seemed like a lot at the time.

But now he's having his best year as a pro, shooting the ball well over 50% from the floor, 85% from the line, 44% from down town, getting 3 boards, 5 assists a game and turning the ball over only twice a game all while racking up 17 points per.

So now all of a sudden, $7.5mil a year for a very productive, young, high character starting PG seems like a great deal.

Like I said, I see a lot of similarities between the two.

The only real difference is that Nelson never had a guy like DJ right behind him.

[dnbman]

The only real difference is that Nelson never had a guy like DJ right behind him.

Or a front court of Hedo, Lewis, and Howard.

[Slam]

Or a front court of Hedo, Lewis, and Howard.
He always had Hedo and Howard (they all arrived at the Magic the same year) and he's had Lewis for 1 1/2.

It's just taken some time for it to "click" for him personally on the court. Now that it has, he's showing what made BB like him so much out of St Joes.

I'm wondering if Felts might experience the same thing in the next year or two. The problem is, do we have the time to wait and to take that chance that it does?

[SWedd523]

Slam, like you said, Nelson has many of the same talents as Ray, but his main problem is/was that he couldn't find a way to put it all together. I think you were the one that touched on this earlier. It took Nelson some time, and some quality guys around him before he truly blossomed into a special talent. Now one could look at that as him finally maturing and becoming what he should, or that could be a product of having 3 other great players with him.

I have full confidence that Ray will/can turn into a PG with numbers much like Nelson's this year. If he can do that I wouldn't complain one bit. The problem is I don't think he has enough time to get good players around him where he can flourish without controlling the ball so much. I would like nothing more than to see him "figure it out" and show us all consistently what he's shown in flashes. It, sadly, seems to be a little too late as he's having to deal with DJ also "figuring it out" at a seemingly much higher rate.

[dnbman]

He always had Hedo and Howard (they all arrived at the Magic the same year) and he's had Lewis for 1 1/2.

Right. But, Felton's never had a front court like that, especially one with all three. Although, I think you're right that it seems to be coming together.


I'm wondering if Felts might experience the same thing in the next year or two. The problem is, do we have the time to wait and to take that chance that it does?

I'm very doubtful he will ever do it with Charlotte unless we add another significant piece that will allow him to clearly take a step back. As of now, all of our guys have to play pretty great for us to be successful. That rarely happens. So, Felton takes it upon himself to win games.

I think he'll blossom, but I think it will be with another team after the pressure is taken off of him. Now, you may ask if that's the kind of guy we want anyway? Maybe not. I'm just ready to move on. I like the starting five of DJ, Bell, Wallace, Diaw, and Okafor. Let's get some solid rotation guys to back them up and move forward.

[Slam]

So do you guys think that Felton is a better PG in a worse situation making Nelson a worse PG in a better situation or that Nelson is just the better PG?

Eg: Would we be a better team with Nelson as our #1 PG and DJ as our #2 than we currently are with Felts as our #1 and DJ as our #2?

[dnbman]

I don't even know if that game is worth playing. I see guys around the league like Rondo who have blossomed; I think Felton would have definitely outperformed what Rondo has done surrounded by all-stars. But, it's all speculation.

To answer your question though, I don't think Nelson would be nearly as good as our pg and I think we'd be a worse team overall if we had the same talent we've had over the last few years.

[SWedd523]

I'd say Ray is still a better PG than Nelson. If they were in identical situations, I would guess that Felton would be better than him. Rondo is a harder guess, he looked like a scrub up until he got KG, Paul, and Allen on his side who would clearly make ANYONE better. But he has blossomed into a pretty damn good PG save for his shot. I can't really tell about him anymore if it's situation over talent

[Slam]

Rondo is a harder guess, he looked like a scrub up until he got KG, Paul, and Allen on his side who would clearly make ANYONE better. But he has blossomed into a pretty damn good PG save for his shot. I can't really tell about him anymore if it's situation over talent
That in itself is telling.

Rondo KNOWS that he is not a good shooter, so he plays within his limitations and to his strengths - which is to play D, create for others and only shoot on drives when he is wide open - and that makes him a sturdy, productive, reliable PG.

[SWedd523]

That in itself is telling.

Rondo KNOWS that he is not a good shooter, so he plays within his limitations and to his strengths - which is to play D, create for others and only shoot on drives when he is wide open - and that makes him a sturdy, productive, reliable PG.
exactly, that site you linked earlier about PG's stats showed, I believe, him attacking the hole 60% of the time; which is far and above the highest percentage of all PG's he tested. That's being SMART, something I wish Mr. Felton would do.

[dnbman]

That in itself is telling.

Rondo KNOWS that he is not a good shooter, so he plays within his limitations and to his strengths - which is to play D, create for others and only shoot on drives when he is wide open - and that makes him a sturdy, productive, reliable PG.

Not to keep beating a point to death, but Rondo has the luxury of just concentrating on being a reliable defensive player and just being a scorer when things open up for him. In fact, Rondo can virtually disappear from a box score and the Celtics still win. Felton doesn't have that luxury.

The reason Rondo looked like a career backup before they got Allen and Garnett was that he wasn't a good pg. He looked like a defensive specialist. He wasn't asked to do much more than that. Meanwhile, Felton has had to be one of our primary scoring options since he came into the league.

That's not to take anything from Rondo. Right this minute, he might be a better pg than Felton. However, his situation, along with Nelson's, have been vastly better for a pg to thrive than Felton's, where we've had virtually no reliability in any of his teammates and three coaches, with only Brown being much of a teacher.

[bellringer21]

I'd say Ray is still a better PG than Nelson. If they were in identical situations, I would guess that Felton would be better than him. Rondo is a harder guess, he looked like a scrub up until he got KG, Paul, and Allen on his side who would clearly make ANYONE better. But he has blossomed into a pretty damn good PG save for his shot. I can't really tell about him anymore if it's situation over talent

I completely disagree. You say Ray is better....then the next sentence you say "I would guess Felton is better". Apparently you aren't sure.

Nelson is better than Felton-I would jump for joy if we could do that deal straight up. Nelson has flourished this year and is for real. I think some of us are attached to Felton cause anyone not associated with the Bobcats would not take Felton over Nelson. Its a no-brainer.

[SWedd523]

I completely disagree. You say Ray is better....then the next sentence you say "I would guess Felton is better". Apparently you aren't sure.

Nelson is better than Felton-I would jump for joy if we could do that deal straight up. Nelson has flourished this year and is for real. I think some of us are attached to Felton cause anyone not associated with the Bobcats would not take Felton over Nelson. Its a no-brainer.
I think you misread my post. Nelson is without a doubt in a better situation than Ray is, and his superior numbers are showing that even though their skill sets are just about as similar as you can get. To me, Ray is better, and if they were in identical situations you would have to guess (or think, for a better word choice) that he would perform just as good, if not better.

[bellringer21]

I think you misread my post. Nelson is without a doubt in a better situation than Ray is, and his superior numbers are showing that even though their skill sets are just about as similar as you can get. To me, Ray is better, and if they were in identical situations you would have to guess (or think, for a better word choice) that he would perform just as good, if not better.

I don't think their skill sets are "as similar as you can get". I like Felton and sometimes I think he gets the raw deal, but Nelson is much better than him.

Nelson's career FG% is 46.5 Felton is 39.5
Nelson's career 3FG% is 38.1 Felton is 32.5
Nelson's career FT% is 79.5 Felton is 77.7
Nelson's career ast:to is 4.4:2.05 Felton is 6.6:2.63

Felton can't shoot as well as Nelson in any category and it isn't close....the numbers are even worse if we compare this year

Nelson's FG% is 52.8 (wow!) Felton is 38.8
Nelson's 3FG% is 44.0 Felton is 30.0
Nelson's FT% is 85.4 Felton is 76.6
Nelson's asts:to is 5.2:2.04, Felton is 6.1:2.56

Nelson is a better player....not sure what else you need me to look up. I added the ast:to to show that Felton has the edge for the career, however this year they are pretty similar.

[bellringer21]

I just came across this, and wanted to share it with you. Take from it what you will. I found the analysis to be extremely impressive and interesting:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=866979&start=0

To compare Nelson to Felton is a joke. Look at these numbers Big Slam got from Real GM.

Even though Felton averages more assists per game, Nelson assists on 30.7 possessions, while Felton assists on 29.4% of possessions….even though Felton gets more assists, he has many more possessions to do it. Nelson is more efficient.

Nelson is rated the 5th best PG in the league with a PER of 22.8 and opponent PER of 16.1. That means on average he gives the Magic a 6.7 PER advantage each game. Felton is rated 29th out of 30 starting PG's with a PER of 13.0 and opponent PER of 18.0. Every game on average we are behind 5.0 PER because we have Felton starting at PG. Its not close. Felton would not be able to do what Nelson does for the Magic.

[Slam]

Not to keep beating a point to death, but Rondo has the luxury of just concentrating on being a reliable defensive player and just being a scorer when things open up for him. In fact, Rondo can virtually disappear from a box score and the Celtics still win. Felton doesn't have that luxury.

The reason Rondo looked like a career backup before they got Allen and Garnett was that he wasn't a good pg. He looked like a defensive specialist. He wasn't asked to do much more than that. Meanwhile, Felton has had to be one of our primary scoring options since he came into the league.

That's not to take anything from Rondo. Right this minute, he might be a better pg than Felton. However, his situation, along with Nelson's, have been vastly better for a pg to thrive than Felton's, where we've had virtually no reliability in any of his teammates and three coaches, with only Brown being much of a teacher.
It wouldn't matter who else was on Raymonds team with him, he'd still make bad decisions, miss wide open three point shots and mess up finishes at the rim.

Only he can change that - if at all (it hasn't changed in 3 1/2 years).

[Slam]

For those interested here is the same data with DJ added.

Thanks again so much supersub15 for creating the data and allowing me to share it with our board.


I've compiled some comparative stats for all starting PGs in the league. Here's the breakdown.

Jump-shooters vs. rim-attackers:


Player JUMP% INSIDE%
Rajon Rondo 40.0 60.0
Russell Westbrook 51.0 49.0
Rodney Stuckey 53.0 47.0
Andre Miller 56.0 44.0
Derrick Rose 58.0 42.0
Chris Duhon 63.0 37.0
Devin Harris 64.0 36.0
Tony Parker 64.0 36.0
T.J. Ford 65.0 35.0
Beno Udrih 65.0 35.0
Raymond Felton 67.0 33.0
Mike Conley 68.0 32.0
Randy Foye 69.0 31.0
Deron Williams 69.0 31.0
Baron Davis 71.0 29.0
Chris Paul 71.0 29.0
D.J. Augustin 73.0 27.0
C.J. Watson 74.0 26.0
Mario Chalmers 74.0 26.0
Rafer Alston 75.0 25.0
Mike James 75.0 25.0
Jameer Nelson 76.0 24.0
Jason Kidd 82.0 18.0
Mo Williams 84.0 16.0
Chauncey Billups 84.0 16.0
Jose Calderon 85.0 15.0
Steve Nash 85.0 15.0
Derek Fisher 86.0 14.0
Luke Ridnour 89.0 11.0
Steve Blake 92.0 8.0
Mike Bibby 93.0 7.0


Obviously, Rondo can't shoot and so is forced to drive time and again. I think a good mixture is the Devin Harris and Tony Parker mix of 65% to 35%, but if your jumpshot is very good, then it doesn't really matter, as evidenced by Jameer Nelson, Chauncey Billups and Jose Calderon at the bottom of the list.

Now, the above numbers don't mean much without looking at the conversion rate of their attempts. TS% (True Shooting Percentage) allows to see who are the most efficient shooters from all distances (FGA, 3FGA, FTA).

Most efficient shooters:


Player TS%
Jose Calderon 63.1
Jameer Nelson 61.6
Steve Nash 61.1
Chris Paul 60.9
Devin Harris 59.0
Chauncey Billups 58.9
Steve Blake 58.7
Mike Bibby 58.5
Mo Williams 58.4
Chris Duhon 58.0
Rajon Rondo 56.5
Mario Chalmers 56.5
Derek Fisher 56.2
Tony Parker 55.7
C.J. Watson 55.7
Rodney Stuckey 53.6
D.J. Augustin 55.5
Deron Williams 53.4
T.J. Ford 52.8
Derrick Rose 52.7
Andre Miller 51.9
Luke Ridnour 51.3
Mike Conley 51.0
Randy Foye 49.6
Beno Udrih 49.2
Russell Westbrook 49.0
Jason Kidd 48.9
Rafer Alston 48.3
Mike James 47.4
Raymond Felton 46.1
Baron Davis 45.5


It's good to know however who are the usage of each of these players to figure out who helps his team with his shooting and who is killing his team with his inefficiency:

Usage Rate:


Player USG%
Tony Parker 32.3
Devin Harris 28.4
Baron Davis 26.1
Russell Westbrook 25.7
Chris Paul 24.7
Rodney Stuckey 23.3
Deron Williams 23.3
Mo Williams 22.8
Derrick Rose 22.7
Jameer Nelson 22.6
Steve Nash 21.9
Randy Foye 21.8
D.J. Augustin 21.7
Mike James 21.7
T.J. Ford 21.6
Raymond Felton 21.6
Chauncey Billups 21.5
Mike Bibby 20.8
Andre Miller 20.8
Beno Udrih 19.9
Rafer Alston 18.9
Jason Kidd 18.1
Luke Ridnour 18.1
Rajon Rondo 17.9
Steve Blake 17.7
Jose Calderon 16.7
Mike Conley 16.4
C.J. Watson 16.3
Derek Fisher 16.2
Mario Chalmers 16.0
Chris Duhon 14.3


Baron Davis is obviously using too many possessions and when you combine with his putrid TS%, then he's sinking his team. Calderon on the other hand is not helping his team when he should. He leads all PGs with his TS%, but uses only 16.7% of his team's possessions. That's too passive. He should be among the team's leaders in shot attempts, probably ahead of Bosh, due to his incredible efficiency.

Well, if you're not shooting, you should be doing something else on the court, like assists and defensive rebounding:


Player AST%
Chris Paul 56.5
Deron Williams 44.8
Jose Calderon 41.0
Tony Parker 40.8
Steve Nash 39.0
Baron Davis 38.5
Rajon Rondo 38.4
Devin Harris 32.7
Chauncey Billups 31.7
Rodney Stuckey 31.5
Chris Duhon 30.9
Jameer Nelson 30.7
Andre Miller 30.1
Luke Ridnour 29.5
Raymond Felton 29.4
Derrick Rose 27.8
Mike Bibby 26.9
Beno Udrih 26.3
D.J. Augustin 26.2
Russell Westbrook 26.0
T.J. Ford 25.8
Steve Blake 23.9
Randy Foye 23.8
Rafer Alston 23.5
Mario Chalmers 22.3
Mo Williams 21.3
Mike Conley 20.9
Mike James 20.5
Derek Fisher 16.6
Jason Kidd 15.0
C.J. Watson 14.1


Calderon is top 3 in that regard, as 41% of his possessions end up with an assist. Chris Paul detroys everybody in this category.


CODE: SELECT ALL
Player DRB%
Chris Paul 14.5
Jason Kidd 14.3
Rajon Rondo 13.3
Mike Conley 13.1
T.J. Ford 12.1
Luke Ridnour 11.7
Mike Bibby 10.4
Jose Calderon 10.2
Raymond Felton 10.0
Rodney Stuckey 9.8
C.J. Watson 9.8
Tony Parker 9.4
Steve Nash 9.3
Mario Chalmers 9.0
Devin Harris 8.8
Chris Duhon 8.7
Mike James 8.7
Deron Williams 8.6
Rafer Alston 8.5
Baron Davis 8.4
Derrick Rose 8.4
Beno Udrih 8.4
Steve Blake 8.4
Andre Miller 8.3
Derek Fisher 7.8
Russell Westbrook 7.7
Chauncey Billups 7.0
D.J. Augustin 6.8
Jameer Nelson 6.2
Mo Williams 6.1
Randy Foye 6.0


Again, Calderon is doing his part on the defensive glass with a good Defensive Rebounding rating. It's amazing though that Chris Paul, probably one of the shortest guys on th ecourt, leads all PGs in this category.

Who takes care of the ball the most? PPR (Pure Point Rating) is a stat that replaces Ast/TO and is a better indicator of the best PGs at taking care of the ball. Anything at 10 and above is considered exceptional:


Player PPR
Chris Paul 12.5
Jose Calderon 10.6
Jason Kidd 8.7
Rajon Rondo 8.5
Chauncey Billups 8.1
Deron Williams 7.9
Baron Davis 7.6
Chris Duhon 6.7
Andre Miller 5.7
Tony Parker 5.6
Mike Bibby 5.6
Devin Harris 5.3
Steve Nash 5.3
Rafer Alston 5.0
Rodney Stuckey 4.9
Steve Blake 4.9
Derek Fisher 4.5
Jameer Nelson 4.4
Mike Conley 4.4
Raymond Felton 4.2
Luke Ridnour 4.2
T.J. Ford 4.0
Derrick Rose 3.4
D.J. Augustin 3.2
Randy Foye 3.0
Mario Chalmers 2.7
Beno Udrih 1.8
C.J. Watson 1.8
Mo Williams 1.7
Russell Westbrook -0.3
Mike James -0.9


What can I say, Chris Paul is amazing. Calderon is not too shabby either.

Now, for the final and best stat in my opinion: Net PER. This is basically what each PG produces from the PG position for 48 minutes, and what he allows to the opponent PG in 48 minutes. This is not an extrapolation. These 48 minutes are actual played minutes.


Player PER48 OPP PER48 NET PER
Chris Paul 33.5 18.7 14.8
Tony Parker 26.2 16.5 9.7
Devin Harris 28.0 18.8 9.2
Chauncey Billups 22.7 14.5 8.2
Jameer Nelson 22.8 16.1 6.7
Rajon Rondo 21.9 17.4 4.5
Mike Bibby 21.1 16.9 4.2
Jose Calderon 20.8 16.6 4.2
Derrick Rose 18.0 13.8 4.2
Russell Westbrook 17.7 13.8 3.9
D.J. Augustin 15.6 13.3 2.4
Steve Nash 19.8 17.9 1.9
Steve Blake 17.8 16.0 1.8
T.J. Ford 17.7 15.9 1.8
Mario Chalmers 15.1 13.3 1.8
Deron Williams 18.5 17.4 1.1
Baron Davis 17.7 16.7 1.0
C.J. Watson 15.3 14.3 1.0
Andre Miller 18.7 18.6 0.1
Mo Williams 21.1 21.7 -0.6
Derek Fisher 18.4 19.8 -1.4
Rodney Stuckey 19.7 21.2 -1.5
Beno Udrih 14.8 16.3 -1.5
Mike James 14.7 16.3 -1.6
Jason Kidd 19.7 21.4 -1.7
Rafer Alston 14.6 16.7 -2.1
Mike Conley 13.7 16.3 -2.6
Luke Ridnour 15.1 18.4 -3.3
Chris Duhon 14.6 18.6 -4.0
Raymond Felton 13.0 18.0 -5.0
Randy Foye 11.3 19.5 -8.2


Obviously, positive production is good. Positive production over 10 is just out of this world.

I can safely say that Chris Paul is the best PG in the world. The rest is up for debate.

Debate is now open...

[davcbow]

Interesting stats bigslam, thanks for compiling all that for us....:cool:

[kickazzz2000]

Looks like NET PER is DJ's most promising statistic.

[TattoodCats4life]

I think DJ's statistics are deflated due to constant play beside Felton. It also can't help having an "okay" point guard teaching a future "excellent" point guard. Again my argument to bring in someone who has a season or two left and cant play full games, doesnt want to start... Someone along the lines of how Juwan Howard is to our front court players.

[sugarfree311]

How about we send Felton, Morrison and May to Minnesota for Mike Miller and Kevin Ollie? Miller can play the 2 or 3 and Brown gets the veteran backup PG he wanted to sign over the summer. Not sure if Minnesota would like it, but they get a younger version of Miller who needs a fresh start and a young PG that perhaps they don't know isn't that good?

[spectre]

I think DJ's statistics are deflated due to constant play beside Felton. It also can't help having an "okay" point guard teaching a future "excellent" point guard. Again my argument to bring in someone who has a season or two left and cant play full games, doesnt want to start... Someone along the lines of how Juwan Howard is to our front court players.

He also has Phil Ford and Larry Brown, both excellent PGs in their time...so I doubt playing beside Felton is deflating his stats. If anything it helps him as he doesn't have to guard the opposing teams' best guard.


How about we send Felton, Morrison and May to Minnesota for Mike Miller and Kevin Ollie? Miller can play the 2 or 3 and Brown gets the veteran backup PG he wanted to sign over the summer. Not sure if Minnesota would like it, but they get a younger version of Miller who needs a fresh start and a young PG that perhaps they don't know isn't that good?I think Minny is a good target but I doubt we could get Miller. FWIW, here's (http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=867128) a thread on their board (RGM) and they're thinking:


Telfair/Smith/Collins
for
Felton/May/MorrisonI'm thinking we would probably get something like this:

Felton/Ammo/Brown for Collins/Ollie/McCants (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2992%7E2753%7E3016%7E987%7E277 7%7E620&teams=16%7E16%7E16%7E30%7E30%7E30&te=&cash=).

Basically we would lose Ammo's 2nd year. I don't particularly like it, but it does get LB the vet PG in Ollie and a scorer at the 2 in McCants. Collins is an expiring (actually all of them are).

[TattoodCats4life]

Guarding the opposing team's best guard is the thing he is best at...He *DESTROYED* Chris Paul when they came here and he did DAMN good the second visit too.

What we need:

DJ/Singletary/Veteran
Bell/?? (Curry via Draft)/Carroll
Wallace/??<Via Trade for Felton/May/Ammo>/Juwan
Diaw/Ajinca+30lb/Okafor
Okafor/Hollins/Nazr.

That'd be pretty decent, and fairly deep. As is clear here our holes are 2 & 3 for depth and maybe a bit at 4, but if we bring out another 5 okafor moves down to 4 better than any of the other bigs.

I claim not to be a master of the NBA but I do think Felton is the most valuable player on the team (that I'd be willing to part with). Sure GW or Okafor are better/more value, but the net overall trade would be in favor of the other team, with felton and some junk we might get a net positive trade like our last one was.

[spectre]

Guarding the opposing team's best guard is the thing he is best at...He *DESTROYED* Chris Paul when they came here and he did DAMN good the second visit too.

You mean Felton, right?

I don't remember the NOLA games, but DJ did start and log big minutes in the 2nd one.

[Ghost Kat]

You guys that posted the stat's for NBA PG , U deserve a standing ovation. I'm lazy so when i make my aguements it would be nice if i had some stats to throw out from time to time. You guys made it perfectly clear how productive and more likely unproductive Felton is. Feltons fans or Value sellers can't argue with that stats.
U can say we are picking on Felton all you want, The stats shows that Feltons isn't helping your arguement as to why he is any better then any average PG. U jump out there and stick on the fact that we called Felton Trash and want to ship him anyway. But whats funny is your reasons can't hold water to Feltons stats that show he's a sub-par PG in MANY area's.
Felton will get traded we all know that, So what are we arguing about? His Value? If he has so much value why aren't more teams trying to get him from us? They always want Crash but Felton isn't asked about all that often. I wonder why since there's a shortage of good PG's around the league.

[TattoodCats4life]

You mean Felton, right?

I don't remember the NOLA games, but DJ did start and log big minutes in the 2nd one.

Sorry wasn't clear, i was saying how DJ is the better of the 2 main PGs, he started because J-Rich was out the first hornets (our home) game and he tore CP3 up. CP3 had like 4 points at the half (he did finish with 30, but too little too late)

[TattoodCats4life]

You guys that posted the stat's for NBA PG , U deserve a standing ovation. I'm lazy so when i make my aguements it would be nice if i had some stats to throw out from time to time. You guys made it perfectly clear how productive and more likely unproductive Felton is. Feltons fans or Value sellers can't argue with that stats.
U can say we are picking on Felton all you want, The stats shows that Feltons isn't helping your arguement as to why he is any better then any average PG. U jump out there and stick on the fact that we called Felton Trash and want to ship him anyway. But whats funny is your reasons can't hold water to Feltons stats that show he's a sub-par PG in MANY area's.
Felton will get traded we all know that, So what are we arguing about? His Value? If he has so much value why aren't more teams trying to get him from us? They always want Crash but Felton isn't asked about all that often. I wonder why since there's a shortage of good PG's around the league.

The reason Felton isnt traded already is the fact that MJ/Larry tried to stick Portland with Nazr as part of it and they said OH NO, then Carroll and they "eh, not so much" and it was over.

[dnbman]

You guys that posted the stat's for NBA PG , U deserve a standing ovation. I'm lazy so when i make my aguements it would be nice if i had some stats to throw out from time to time. You guys made it perfectly clear how productive and more likely unproductive Felton is. Feltons fans or Value sellers can't argue with that stats.
U can say we are picking on Felton all you want, The stats shows that Feltons isn't helping your arguement as to why he is any better then any average PG. U jump out there and stick on the fact that we called Felton Trash and want to ship him anyway. But whats funny is your reasons can't hold water to Feltons stats that show he's a sub-par PG in MANY area's.
Felton will get traded we all know that, So what are we arguing about? His Value? If he has so much value why aren't more teams trying to get him from us? They always want Crash but Felton isn't asked about all that often. I wonder why since there's a shortage of good PG's around the league.

Yeah, he sucks. The stats PROVE it. Let's take him out and shoot him.

[TattoodCats4life]

Take him out and shoot him, like old Yella' Well thats gotta be one of the funniest things I've heard today. I must say though while we're all getting ready to execute players, lets clear up this roster
Felton *BANG*
MAY *BANG BANG BANG BANG* (Had to get thru the blubber).
Ammo *BANG*
Carroll *BANG* (If only for his $/season and length of contract).
Nazr *BANG BANG* (Second for the fact that he cost us Hermann).

I think I'm done...oh way

Larry *Bang* to the knee (Give Ryan, Lexy and Shannon Brown more time on the floor).

Okay rant done.

[spectre]

Sorry wasn't clear, i was saying how DJ is the better of the 2 main PGs, he started because J-Rich was out the first hornets (our home) game and he tore CP3 up. CP3 had like 4 points at the half (he did finish with 30, but too little too late)

Then I don't know what to say...because there is NO WAY that DJ is better than Felton defensively.

I've seen him at times do some things better than he has, but against the Knicks I saw him repeatedly cut under 2 guys on a screen for Nate Robinson. Lucky for us Nate couldn't hit the side of a barn that night else he'd have sunk us by himself.

BTW, Richardson started in the first game and DJ started in the 2nd:

http://www.nba.com/games/20081107/NOHCHA/boxscore.html

[TattoodCats4life]

Then I don't know what to say...because there is NO WAY that DJ is better than Felton defensively.

I've seen him at times do some things better than he has, but against the Knicks I saw him repeatedly cut under 2 guys on a screen for Nate Robinson. Lucky for us Nate couldn't hit the side of a barn that night else he'd have sunk us by himself.

BTW, Richardson started in the first game and DJ started in the 2nd:

http://www.nba.com/games/20081107/NOHCHA/boxscore.html

I stand corrected, I know DJ played good minutes. Your right too, he is NOT a defensive player but, what he did do was outright outrun CP3 and he prevented a lot of CP3's passes from being where he wanted them to go. I do think that in the future he'll be just a notch or two below CP3, just the same as I think Lil Sean (if they decide to move him to the 2) will be an AI type of player, albeit not quite as good. Maybe I love 14 of the players too much? My wife can tell you how angry I was that Sean May defiled my 08/09 team hat by autographing it, but there were 4 players coming off court and i couldn't say "HEY MATT, NO MAY YOU CANT SIGN THIS" :)

[dav7z]

You guys that posted the stat's for NBA PG , U deserve a standing ovation. I'm lazy so when i make my aguements it would be nice if i had some stats to throw out from time to time. You guys made it perfectly clear how productive and more likely unproductive Felton is. Feltons fans or Value sellers can't argue with that stats.
U can say we are picking on Felton all you want, The stats shows that Feltons isn't helping your arguement as to why he is any better then any average PG. U jump out there and stick on the fact that we called Felton Trash and want to ship him anyway. But whats funny is your reasons can't hold water to Feltons stats that show he's a sub-par PG in MANY area's.
Felton will get traded we all know that, So what are we arguing about? His Value? If he has so much value why aren't more teams trying to get him from us? They always want Crash but Felton isn't asked about all that often. I wonder why since there's a shortage of good PG's around the league.


Carolinakat i agree with most of what you saying. I have never said hes better than a average point. As what you just said he is average. Where we differ is on a team like Portland or Goldenstate Felton could be very productive. As for him not being traded yet i think has a lot to do with two things . First i think Brown is giving DJ as much time as he can be for he turns him loose. Second Felton should be at max value just be for the trede deadline. His contract along should net us a first round pick . Next he would be a nice back up point on a team trying to make a run in the playoffs. Thair for neting us a nice rotation player. I just can't understand the hate . Teams have and do inquire about him. I just think Brown knows how much more value Felton will have at the trade deadline.

[dav7z]

You guys that posted the stat's for NBA PG , U deserve a standing ovation. I'm lazy so when i make my aguements it would be nice if i had some stats to throw out from time to time. You guys made it perfectly clear how productive and more likely unproductive Felton is. Feltons fans or Value sellers can't argue with that stats.
U can say we are picking on Felton all you want, The stats shows that Feltons isn't helping your arguement as to why he is any better then any average PG. U jump out there and stick on the fact that we called Felton Trash and want to ship him anyway. But whats funny is your reasons can't hold water to Feltons stats that show he's a sub-par PG in MANY area's.
Felton will get traded we all know that, So what are we arguing about? His Value? If he has so much value why aren't more teams trying to get him from us? They always want Crash but Felton isn't asked about all that often. I wonder why since there's a shortage of good PG's around the league.


Carolinakat i agree with most of what you saying. I have never said hes better than a average point. As what you just said he is average. Where we differ is on a team like Portland or Goldenstate Felton could be very productive. As for him not being traded yet i think has a lot to do with two things . First i think Brown is giving DJ as much time as he can be for he turns him loose. Second Felton should be at max value just be for the trede deadline. His contract along should net us a first round pick . Next he would be a nice back up point on a team trying to make a run in the playoffs. Thair for neting us a nice rotation player. I just can't understand the hate . Teams have and do inquire about him. I just think Brown knows how much more value Felton will have at the trade deadline.

[TattoodCats4life]

I just think Brown knows how much more value Felton will have at the trade deadline.

Went it comes down to it, Larry is the boss, and I think even MJ would say the same (at least he better).

[Ghost Kat]

Yeah, he sucks. The stats PROVE it. Let's take him out and shoot him.


No one has said anything about killing him, Your being silly now. I'm not sure if your a Felton Fan or not and it really doesn't matter. We all like Felton and think he's a good person. But his productivity and what He does and doesn't not do for this team is very clear. Yes, Feltons stats prove that he sucks. He can't argue with Shooting %'s and all the other stats thrown out here that show He's a Sub-par guard and thats on a "so called" bad team. If he was better he'd play better, especially on a less talented him.

I can see the Felton defenders are running out of arguements now. The one i have heard the most since joining this site is We don't repect Raymond or his value to the team. My arguement since the start is Raymond has never ever lived up to those expectation, Even if he was over sold as a pure PG and drafted to high at #5. Some have blammed bad Coaching, Now he's got a good coach and still play's the same. Or playing SG, which in this offense only determines who you guard on defense. Since he still leads the team in assists, SG isn't the problem other then Him actually shooting the ball. So please stop making excuses. We agree He's a good person, plays hard, Blah Blah Blah. But open your eye's and actually watch the games...He's not helping this team as much as you keep saying.


BTW: Have i finally said something good enough to get some rep. points, I feel so left out and over matched.

[Marvel]

I've had it with Felton last season i put up with him because of f**kface Sam Vincent but lo and behold he's playing with a HOF coach right now and he still sucks,in fact he's even worse.I hate watching him trying to be the closer in tight games just to see him turn it over or force a bad pass or chuck 3s pisses me right off,and i don't give a damn if he has a line of 22 points,8 assists and 5 rebounds tonight,because sure enough he's going to suck a*s in the next 4-5 games.Give DJ the keys and let's move ahead,FELTON SUCKS.

[dnbman]

I can see the Felton defenders are running out of arguements now. The one i have heard the most since joining this site is We don't repect Raymond or his value to the team. My arguement since the start is Raymond has never ever lived up to those expectation, Even if he was over sold as a pure PG and drafted to high at #5. Some have blammed bad Coaching, Now he's got a good coach and still play's the same. Or playing SG, which in this offense only determines who you guard on defense. Since he still leads the team in assists, SG isn't the problem other then Him actually shooting the ball. So please stop making excuses. We agree He's a good person, plays hard, Blah Blah Blah. But open your eye's and actually watch the games...He's not helping this team as much as you keep saying.


BTW: Have i finally said something good enough to get some rep. points, I feel so left out and over matched.

He's an alright point guard. However, the stats don't show him playing just about every night rather the rest of the team shows up or not.

He needs to get better. That much is plainly obvious. However, he does help us on the court and the stats that Big Slam posted didn't necessarily show that he is a terrible guard. It certainly didn't put him in any great light either.

My biggest complaint is the addition by subtraction notion, which I don't think is true. I do not believe he is adversely affecting our record in the slightest.

Lastly, I just sympathize for the guy because he's been asked to do everything for this team and been repeatedly the focus of criticism after his rookie year, beginning with the team canning Brevin Knight, yet our team has been tragically flawed for its entire existence and remains so now. Yet, everyone wants to say that Felton is a terrible guard who sucks. Nobody is arguing that he's great and doesn't need to improve; clearly he does. I would just like the guy to get the respect he deserves, that he does a lot of things on the court to help us. You can say that and still say he needs to improve his decision making and shooting, just like we can point to flaws in every other player on the team and still respect their positive attributes.

That's really the only thing I care about. The guy is not garbage and many people on here and other boards keep saying he is. Yet, on the RealGM board, he's the second leading Hammer award winner. Bonnell went so far as to say he was the first quarter MVP of the team. Yet, now most people are saying he's garbage.

I've said for the last few pages, we need to trade him. I think his career here has been derailed for both his lack of consistency and the fans wanting a fall guy. He needs to be traded to a team where he doesn't have any preconceived notion of being the man and rebuild his skill set. We need to find a solid rotation guy who is consistent. Hopefully it happens soon, as both Felton and the Bobcats are losing in the current relationship.

[dav7z]

No one has said anything about killing him, Your being silly now. I'm not sure if your a Felton Fan or not and it really doesn't matter. We all like Felton and think he's a good person. But his productivity and what He does and doesn't not do for this team is very clear. Yes, Feltons stats prove that he sucks. He can't argue with Shooting %'s and all the other stats thrown out here that show He's a Sub-par guard and thats on a "so called" bad team. If he was better he'd play better, especially on a less talented him.

I can see the Felton defenders are running out of arguements now. The one i have heard the most since joining this site is We don't repect Raymond or his value to the team. My arguement since the start is Raymond has never ever lived up to those expectation, Even if he was over sold as a pure PG and drafted to high at #5. Some have blammed bad Coaching, Now he's got a good coach and still play's the same. Or playing SG, which in this offense only determines who you guard on defense. Since he still leads the team in assists, SG isn't the problem other then Him actually shooting the ball. So please stop making excuses. We agree He's a good person, plays hard, Blah Blah Blah. But open your eye's and actually watch the games...He's not helping this team as much as you keep saying.


BTW: Have i finally said something good enough to get some rep. points, I feel so left out and over matched.

Your last post you said Fealton was average and i agreeded with that assessment as most of the stats do about Felton. Stat wize hes a lower teir starter or a verry good back up and i agree. But in this post you TRY to describe him as Sub par.
So as you say stop making excuses, I have ask you three times and tell everone how bad his value is. You take very nice stats from Slam and all you can say is the kid sucks. Slam , Spectre , or any other well imformed member on this site will tell you Felton has trade value and come up with somthing better than HE SUCKS.
Its hard to understand your positions when you answer no questions ,such as why Brown starts him . Why he leads the team in assist , Why is he a team co captian,
Your only answer is he sucks. Is he average or sub par? Why is he sub par , is that sub par just starting or even off the beanch. I have no problem starting DJ or even trading Felton . I all so agreeded hes average , but please EXPLAIN he sucks?

[docend24]

The only thing I wan to say to defend Raymond is that he is not as horrible in 4th quarters. Surprisingly. i noticed numerous times he is something like 2-10 at onetime during the game at dfinishes with 5-17 which is sligtly better. And he can defend a bit. Other than that I agree with you that he is undeperfrorming pick and it is not even close.

[Ghost Kat]

Your last post you said Fealton was average and i agreeded with that assessment as most of the stats do about Felton. Stat wize hes a lower teir starter or a verry good back up and i agree. But in this post you TRY to describe him as Sub par.
So as you say stop making excuses, I have ask you three times and tell everone how bad his value is. You take very nice stats from Slam and all you can say is the kid sucks. Slam , Spectre , or any other well imformed member on this site will tell you Felton has trade value and come up with somthing better than HE SUCKS.
Its hard to understand your positions when you answer no questions ,such as why Brown starts him . Why he leads the team in assist , Why is he a team co captian,
Your only answer is he sucks. Is he average or sub par? Why is he sub par , is that sub par just starting or even off the beanch. I have no problem starting DJ or even trading Felton . I all so agreeded hes average , but please EXPLAIN he sucks?


Ok, I'll answer you since you felt to need to address me personally. Felton IMO is an average guard, But since i did say Sub-par you can point to his Shooting % and you find the Sub-par. What good is a basketball player who can't shoot a basketball? Now calling out other post members to bring value to your point is meaningless, Because I'm guessing they agreed with some of the points i made also.
Now I don't know why LB starts him, Thats on LB, he see's way more then We will ever see as fans. Plus it's not like he has alot of other options to replace him with.
Next, Felton should lead the team in assists since he's the damn starting point guard!! Thats what i expect from a starter, Does that somehow increase his value? He's always been a good passing guard since UNC days, But you can't prove i ever said he wasn't a good passer...so...
Next
Felton is a Co-Capt. Because he wanted that leadership role,Plus he is a 3rd year starting PG, they are suppose to be leaders on the court. Does that have anything to do with how well he plays...NO. Isn't Gerald the other Capt. Should i compare Feltons gameplay & stats to Gerald now?
Now I think i answered your questions, If not tell me, I'm sure you will. If i wasn't clear I'll make myself more clear. But let me be clear, If that was an attempt to call me out or to clear Felton from me evil attacks it's not working. That is becuase Felton isn't helping you. In my earlier post i wasn't addressing my comments at anyone in general, But 2nite dav7z, U get the honor.

[Ghost Kat]

Oh, I missed answering why he sucks...IMO if not helping this team win games you suck...that goes for ever single player , coach, FO member, water boy, nacho sales man...EVERYBODY

[SWedd523]

Oh, I missed answering why he sucks...IMO if not helping this team win games you suck...that goes for ever single player , coach, FO member, water boy, nacho sales man...EVERYBODY
So......... you suck?:biggrin:

[Ghost Kat]

So......... you suck?:biggrin:

Doesn't that mean you suck too?
Still want to smile?

I don't remember listing fans since we don't really control anything. We just cheer on the team. We don't bring in players, we don't call plays, We don't set Rotations, or ticket prices. Most of us can't even go to the games, So no i don't help the team win anything.. But neither do you.

[Stu_Discus]

Doesn't that mean you suck too?
Still want to smile?

I don't remember listing fans since we don't really control anything. We just cheer on the team. We don't bring in players, we don't call plays, We don't set Rotations, or ticket prices. Most of us can't even go to the games, So no i don't help the team win anything.. But neither do you.
Ok by your logic Fans dont control anything but the dude selling nacho cheese does? thats pretty stupid
The fans are there to support their team not to put down the players on their team. Thats their job and it does have an effect on team moral,
i take my job seriously

[dav7z]

Ok by your logic Fans dont control anything but the dude selling nacho cheese does? thats pretty stupid
The fans are there to support their team not to put down the players on their team. Thats their job and it does have an effect on team moral,
i take my job seriously


AGREEDED , Great post and welcome to Bobcatsplanet.
Most of the time only the warm weather fans has that kind of attitude. I will support Felton and ever member on the team . Yes some changes need to be made but that don't mean ever player you don't like sucks . I can't understand that logic. Im not a big Morrioson fan but you bet your ass im chearing for him ever second hes in the game.

[Ghost Kat]

What the hell is a warm weather fan? Ya'll are being stupid now. I'm seriously getting tired of your intentional misrepresentation of my comments toward Felton. Are my english words not clear enough? I can say it in spanish if that would help. So since I point out Feltons flaws i'm some kinda half fan? Someone that only cheers for some of the people on the team?? Seriously your being stupid and stupidity sure doesn't help your arguement. I have stated MANY times I want all the players on this team to be productive. That helps my team. So I see no need to defend how big a fan I am, again Stupid.

Now about us fans since you felt to need to comment. U can agree or disagree on our actual role and how much we help the team. But as i stated We don't bring in players, we don't sign contracts...We just cheer and support our team. Yeah, i said the Nacho man, so f^*&King what, it was a joke

I forgot: Now this is for Stu, Not pissing on anyones fan pride. Stu since your JOB of being a fan is taken so seriously, File it when tax time comes and tell me what the Governemt says. BTW, Welcome to the site.

[SWedd523]

What the hell is a warm weather fan? Ya'll are being stupid now. I'm seriously getting tired of your intentional misrepresentation of my comments toward Felton. Are my english words not clear enough? I can say it in spanish if that would help. So since I point out Feltons flaws i'm some kinda half fan? Someone that only cheers for some of the people on the team?? Seriously your being stupid and stupidity sure doesn't help your arguement. I have stated MANY times I want all the players on this team to be productive. That helps my team. So I see no need to defend how big a fan I am, again Stupid.

Now about us fans since you felt to need to comment. U can agree or disagree on our actual role and how much we help the team. But as i stated We don't bring in players, we don't sign contracts...We just cheer and support our team. Yeah, i said the Nacho man, so f^*&King what, it was a joke

I forgot: Now this is for Stu, Not pissing on anyones fan pride. Stu since your JOB of being a fan is taken so seriously, File it when tax time comes and tell me what the Governemt says. BTW, Welcome to the site.
You've been quite angry lately for some reason. Do we need a BCP counseling program? I'd be willing to help...



A warm weather fan is a fan who only supports his team when things are good. They praise the team when they're doing well but bash them when they're doing bad. I leave the rest of that interpretation to you. You could also look up "Summer soldiers and sunshine patriots" or Thomas Paine to get a better understanding.

[Ghost Kat]

Your serious aren't you? Thats so funny. Have I really been angry? I don't think so, But maybe. Now you did say a Warm Weather fan is someone who Praises the team when it's doing good and bashes the team when they are down or doing bad. Did I get that right?? You said TEAM, right? I want to make sure i understand your reasoning....What have I said that was bad about this TEAM. Please go back and find some me bad mouthing my TEAM.

Now I've been talking about Felton, At what point he he become the whole TEAM. Please don't point out books for me to read, But thank you. I think I have a pretty good idea of what a TEAM is. But I don't need to example my life experience and my job to understand a TEAM is everyone working together. Felton is part of a TEAM. Now I've pointed out IMO the ways Felton has hurt my TEAM. So you tell me if I'm a Warm Weather fan...in your Opinion, By your stated standards. I wasn't angry was I? I'll make sure to work out my issuses before posting next time.

[SWedd523]

Felton is part of a TEAM.
I DID say team, and I'm glad you seem to understand that fact. You're clearly bashing Felton who is, as you say, part of the team. Perhaps you can understand what dav was saying better now.

As for your anger, I don't think anyone else here would say you haven't been acting "angry" lately. It is what it is. Either you're letting dav get under your skin by defending Felton, which says plenty for your self confidence, or you're experiencing something less than stellar outside of this forum. If that's the case then I'm sorry for whatever is bothering you.


You don't have to talk like a smartass to me. You obviously didn't understand what dav was saying with the "warm weather fan" statement and I was trying to help YOU out.

[TattoodCats4life]

I think everyone needs to drink a frosty brew and relax. Fans do have the job of supporting the team, but not liking a player, thinking they suck, need traded etc doesnt make someone less a fan...

That said I came >< that close to telling May that I didn't care for his autograph when I was standing to get everyones autograph after the pregame shootaround. But I felt I would be a bigger person and had him sign where it was less obvious. I despise May and think he is the biggest waste of skin on the planet, but that doesnt make me less a fan....I'm insane about this team, trust me, in-sane....If they play May I'll clap when he hits a basket, but ill boo when he doesnt and I'll really boo when he's getting a basket at Captain D's.

Hope that didnt come across angry, because I'm not.... just think there are 4-5 players we could do better trading (some for as little as a 2nd round pick next year).

[SWedd523]

I think everyone needs to drink a frosty brew and relax. Fans do have the job of supporting the team, but not liking a player, thinking they suck, need traded etc doesnt make someone less a fan...

That said I came >< that close to telling May that I didn't care for his autograph when I was standing to get everyones autograph after the pregame shootaround. But I felt I would be a bigger person and had him sign where it was less obvious. I despise May and think he is the biggest waste of skin on the planet, but that doesnt make me less a fan....I'm insane about this team, trust me, in-sane....If they play May I'll clap when he hits a basket, but ill boo when he doesnt and I'll really boo when he's getting a basket at Captain D's.

Hope that didnt come across angry, because I'm not.... just think there are 4-5 players we could do better trading (some for as little as a 2nd round pick next year).


That's more like it!:rock:

[Ghost Kat]

Is there a different in being angry and being rude? I don't see how anyone else would say I've been angry, Since you are the first to bring it up. There's no anger in my statements. Anger would mean I'm somehow mad or upset at some random person in some random place in the US. Also over sea's since we have posters from other countries too. Some how you want to see anger in the passion I've shown defending my point. Anger would be saying, Fuck you, In stead a rational explaination. I can't even say I've been overly rude, But again that's My perception. But maybe your the first in a long line to call me out for being angry. I seriously doubt it though.

Plus, I know what a warm weather friend is, I was more shocked I was called one since by your own def. stated TEAM and I talked about Felton. But pick your words here, Who was being a smartass? You, You felt the need to answer for someone else didn't you?

Edited: This has gone off on the wrong track WE are suppose to be debating Felton , Not who is a bigger fan or any other nonsense, I expect the rest of this to be about Felton and not the fans...Don't make me Angry!!


http://getcontagio.us/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/hulk.jpg

[SWedd523]

Is there a different in being angry and being rude? I don't see how anyone else would say I've been angry, Since you are the first to bring it up. There's no anger in my statements. Anger would mean I'm somehow mad or upset at some random person in some random place in the US. Also over sea's since we have posters from other countries too. Some how you want to see anger in the passion I've shown defending my point. Anger would be saying, Fuck you, In stead a rational explaination. I can't even say I've been overly rude, But again that's My perception. But maybe your the first in a long line to call me out for being angry. I seriously doubt it though.

Plus, I know what a warm weather friend is, I was more shocked I was called one since by your own def. stated TEAM and I talked about Felton. But pick your words here, Who was being a smartass? You, You felt the need to answer for someone else didn't you?

You asked a question. I answered it.

I used the word angry because it seemed like you were getting pissed off at what dav was sayingbecause he didn't agree with what you thought. Post #83 is a very good representation of you being a smartass.

You seem to not be able to take what someone else says if they don't agree with what you believe. That's not something that I can help. So until you realize that other people won't agree with what you have to say then this is a pointless discussion.

BCP is a place where all of us fans can discuss topics with civility even though we may not agree. It sucks to have someone here who can't do that.

[Ghost Kat]

Again are you serious?
At what point did being a smartass turn into being angry?

How is it I can't take what someone say's to me? Explain that. Pretty Please, cuz i totally missed that. Is it this Phantom anger you see? How are my responds showing I can't handle what others are saying to me?
Post #83..The statement to Stu?...Your not jumping in defendin someone else are you? Stu said it was his job, Let him respond to that if he chooses to. How is that your business? Again you said i was being a smartass, I'll live with that but angry? How? You, alone have felt the need to say I have been uncivil. Not a Moderator or anyone of importance...You.

[SWedd523]

Ya'll are being stupid now. I'm seriously getting tired of your intentional misrepresentation of my comments toward Felton. Are my english words not clear enough? I can say it in spanish if that would help.


Seriously your being stupid and stupidity sure doesn't help your arguement.

Sure sounds like something an angry/mad/exasperated? person would say. It's not necessarily WHAT you say, its HOW you say it. OR in this sense, the tone you convey is that of being pissed off or unable to take someone else's point of view (in other words, you seem angry). You obviously have a problem with other people not agreeing with you.

If I misread your :airquote:emotion:airquote:, then something got lost in translation and it's an honest mistake on my part. But it really IS stupid how this has gone on for over a page and it's time for this topic to move on

[Ghost Kat]

Saying someone is making stupid comments is a little different then me actually out right angerly calling someone stupid or some other name. Now If I feel i have clearly stated my point, Then someone responds seriously over reaching on what I said..I feel thats stupid. We weren't arguing Felton at that point, And as you highlighted, I pointed out things were getting stupid. Now again you felt the need to see anger in statements made to another person not you, I don't remember every sayin a mean word in your direction. Whoever it was i was talking to before those highlight'd pieces you clipped, Was getting to questioning my team pride and other nonsense since I have clearly been bashing Felton. Thats stupid to me, Maybe not you but it is to me.

I tried to put a end to this like three posts ago, But you see anger in my words so you wanted to help.. ok.. Helped.
Now since I have clearly defended myself against your Outrageous change of anger, I can go back to bashing Felton , Although he didn't play to bad tonight.

[dav7z]

Carolinakat i have no problem with you . Or i havn't had a problem with you . It hard for me to understand the anger , or hate for certain players or people.
I have all ways considered the whole team as one unit so its hard to understand the anger. As far as saying my replys are stupid , they might be. Im not the coach or any one who really knows the game on a profesional level. But i try to do the best i can being a Bobcat fan.

Back to Felton as this can be a really good thread not to be ruined by anger and personal feelings.
As of today
1st DJ is the point of the fucture. But right now Brown starts Felton because of a lot of reasons . The biggest being giving DJ experiance as good as DJ is he still shows flashes of rookie and at times a lack of ball handling whitch will get better with time. Felton has been called average and subpar . I disagree with subpar but compleatly agree with average. In time i feel DJ will be slightly better, cheaper better fit for the team.

Next i agree about trading Felton not because he sucks, but becaue of value now, trade deadline, and next years value.
I have stated my thoughts of his value whitch i will state again.I think nets us a very nice rotation player and a first round pick . He don't have that value now but at the deadline i think he will.

[Ghost Kat]

As stated Before I have no problem with anybody who disagree's with me, Period. If i was angry it was becasue we got off Felton and on to my Team pride as a form of arguement....If I went to far sorry.

At no point have i said i hated Felton or wish evil on him. Thats what my responders are missing. Just because I point out Feltons flaws has nothing to do with if I still cheer for him. Stated many time i want this TEAM to win. I'm not dismissing the Team Unit, I'm pointing out a piece of that unit has flaws. Now I may talk about Felton more then any other play but he gives me so much to talk about every night. But no has said anything when I out right trash Sean May...Isn't he still part of the unit? Kinda?
Felton IMO can't shoot, which hurts us badly since we are the worse scoring team in the league. And on to that his drive attempts don't always work out which leave him complaining to the ref while the other team breaks down court. Felton has his possitives but he's been here 3 1/2 yrs now. He hasn't improved.

[TattoodCats4life]

Here's my (unlikely) solution to the Ray Felton Problem...our hole at 2/3 and sure footed help at 5....We'd probably need to give up a first rounder to make this happen...but Toronto wants to move anyone but Bosh and Calderon per Hoopstype.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2753~2776~568~2987~3249~635&teams=28~28~28~30~30~30&te=&cash=

[coordinator0]

Here's my (unlikely) solution to the Ray Felton Problem...our hole at 2/3 and sure footed help at 5....We'd probably need to give up a first rounder to make this happen...but Toronto wants to move anyone but Bosh and Calderon per Hoopstype.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2753~2776~568~2987~3249~635&teams=28~28~28~30~30~30&te=&cash= (http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2753%7E2776%7E568%7E2987%7E324 9%7E635&teams=28%7E28%7E28%7E30%7E30%7E30&te=&cash=)

No way that's going to happen because Calderon has turned into one of the best PG's in the game, not to mention that they need depth in the bigs for when/if O'Neal get's hurt.

[dav7z]

Here's my (unlikely) solution to the Ray Felton Problem...our hole at 2/3 and sure footed help at 5....We'd probably need to give up a first rounder to make this happen...but Toronto wants to move anyone but Bosh and Calderon per Hoopstype.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2753~2776~568~2987~3249~635&teams=28~28~28~30~30~30&te=&cash=


I wish Felts had that much value but kinda doubt he does. I kinda think Nazz is being showcased til the trade deadline and is going to be packaged with Felton. That would stand to reason Hollins lack of playing time.

Im tkinking Portland fits in well with. Golden State all so but i think they about ready to pack it up for the year . Clippers might pull the trigger all so but its no way i want to eat BDs contract. Curry is all ways in the picture but im not a fan.
Then again the raptors might be good in a three way . But Felts wouldn't bring much help for them.
What would really be good is a three way with the Clippers somthing like?
Felton and Nazz= Charlotte Kamann= Clippers and ??
or Felton and Nazz=Charlotte BD = Clippers back to Golden State, Crawford to Charlotte

[Ghost Kat]

Ray & some random player can't bring in three like J-rich did. I still like the warriors trade for Randolph But never ever ever Eddie Curry...Thats just another Sean May waiting to happen. I'll be sad to see Raymond go... Believe it or not...But some how since LB got here and the Bell Diaw trade I've regained some respect back for the FO.

So far....